Bundesliga, DFB Cup, and other Bundesliga business 2014/2015
- Thread starter ManniKaltz
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Actually - I have seen full Dortmund sides pretty tooth less in a lot matches. Yes, if things go their plan it runs all pretty smooth - that is the system. But you just do not need to play in their cards.
But that does not have anything to do with today's match. I would have been surprised if it would have ended differently. It is just the mixture of new systems, new players, players that only had 3 full training sessions etc. - and then Martinez injury.
He has torn his cruciate ligament and the external ligament and will be out for most of this season. The injury problems have now really started.
Dortmunds football is so brilliant whenever they face a team that's willing to engage them. Very free flowing, direct and intense football. Their problem in my opinion is that regardless of how the opposition play they pretty much play the same way, trying to go through the middle with those quick passing combinations which leads to a world of troubles on their part whenever they face a team that sits deep and plans to hit them on the counter. Whenever that has happened in the league in recent years they've ended up dropping points as their football is so reckless they give the ball away easily where they shouldn't give it away and end up paying the price. Knock it wide and get numbers in the box is what they should be working on. what they do works particularly well against other big teams because they always have the pride of believing in their attacking play.
I also feel that they've lost way too much technical ability in the team for them to continue to be amongst the elite in european club football. gotze, kagawa and lewa is too much natural ability to lose and just replace with what they've done. basically too much ability in tight spaces and with so many teams that press in todays football that's very important. its all hard work and pace at this moment and too little guile so to speak.
Bayern looked a an absolute wreck and yes It was something of a c side out there but even Dortmund didn't have all their key players. This is basically the same Dortmund side that was destroyed a few days ago by pool. They will obviously be a much better side in the next few weeks once the stars come but I just feel as though them being the de facto team has come to an end in this pep reign.
I also feel that they've lost way too much technical ability in the team for them to continue to be amongst the elite in european club football. gotze, kagawa and lewa is too much natural ability to lose and just replace with what they've done. basically too much ability in tight spaces and with so many teams that press in todays football that's very important. its all hard work and pace at this moment and too little guile so to speak.
Bayern looked a an absolute wreck and yes It was something of a c side out there but even Dortmund didn't have all their key players. This is basically the same Dortmund side that was destroyed a few days ago by pool. They will obviously be a much better side in the next few weeks once the stars come but I just feel as though them being the de facto team has come to an end in this pep reign.
The last sentence is one I always like. Reminds me of newspaper articles that 2 years ago after the Cup final loss from Bayern against Dortmund (2:5!) everybody talked about the end of the reign. A year later Bayern had achieved what no other German team has ever achieved in the 50 years of Bundesliga before with a treble and that with a Bundesliga record that had beaten the prior Dortmund's Bundesliga record of 81 points (Klopp: I will look back still proud in 30 years because nobody will beat it) with 92 points...
Actually - last season we lost the Super Cup with 2:4...
Kagawa and Götze were already gone the last time they beat Real and Gündogan will probably come back soon.
They also created 218 goal scoring chances last season (compared to Bayern's 236 and Hoffenheim's 186 (3rd most). Their bigger problems were in their defence: they conceded 38 goals in the league and they went down 0:3 to Real quickly which cost them in the CL.
They don't necessarily have a problem with patience, last season they suffered a lot from having Gündogan out all season, Hummels being injured for a long time and Mkhitaryan having some trouble adjusting/with consistency (all 3 of their main playmakers) which destabilized the foundations of their play.
Bayern lost last season's super cup too and today's squad doesn't even come close to the real thing. Dortmund will probably be able to compete with Bayern when they face each other, but over the course of the season Bayern will drop less points than them.
Supercups are just glorified friendlies, we won our version of it last season and look where we finished... Bayern's "slump" has been ongoing since March, though, more often than the first half of the season and early second they just seem to struggle to find fluidity in attack.
@PedroMendez Yeah I see what you're saying, the formation/approach to the game that Pep took was different but the performance I saw on the pitch was nevertheless reminiscent of the 0-4 vs Madrid, midfield getting pressed off the ball despite enjoying possession at the back (which is ultimately pointless), lacking ideas going forward, poor defending, same problems that were there were present against Dortmund. It could be to test a plan B like you said as critics of Pep often cited lack of plan B as one of Pep's main flaws at Barcelona, but the performance yesterday looked far from convincing, but then they were successful with it three months ago against the same opposition in a more important stage so it could just be that the players had a really bad day at the office (or that Klopp didn't come up with a plan to counter 343 back then, but time will tell). Leverkusen's Schmidt is also known for implementing a high pressure strategy so if today's game is any indication of what is to come Leverkusen could pose some trouble as well. (and come to think of it there is that 0-3 defeat that Pep's Bayern conceded to Schmidt's RB Salzburg, albeit in a friendly)
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So? there was no change in philosophy then but there is now. Then during last season Bayern got walloped 5-0 on agg by one of their main European rivals.
So? They still won, I assume players (on both sides) PERHAPS did not play 110%, but if you are a professional footballer you don't simply want to lose games, nor does an amateur footballer want to lose games, that is how competetive minds work, simple as that.
However, it is quite impressive that Dortmund, regardless of this game always seem to foster, or so to say breed great talent in all positions. And this season will be no exception. However, many of their players seem to me to be quite injury prone, or is this only my opinion?
Also, Klopp is such a joyful lad, can only smile when I see him.
Edit: http://www.bvb.de/eng/News/Overview/Mats-Hummels-is-the-new-BVB-club-captain
When Dortmund are on top of teams they tend to create loads of chance, but they also have games where they seemingly cant even create one chance. Especially against tactically sound teams that defend deep. They continue to play that quick football through the middle and lose the ball which leads to numerous counters for the opposition. They've had this problem for 2 seasons now. its not about patience its about finding a way that works without leaving your team vulnerable to the counter.
Dortmunds defence and attack are basically interlinked due to the pressing system that they employ. If they attack well, lose the ball higher up the pitch, they then press and get it back. The thing is now Dortmund tends to struggle to play the ball out from the back which leads to the opposition team catching them disorganised. They've never been what you classify as an organised defensive unit during klopps reign so their system is prone to collapsing on bad days(i.e vs pool). They simply have to handle pressure better than they are doing atm and the only way to do that is to increase the technical skill of the players in the squad. No one really knows how gundogan is gonna look when he comes back and sahin was garbage last season.
So it actually is the ACL with Javi Martinez, out for about 6 months it seems.
Poor guy, such an unfortunate injury.
Poor guy, such an unfortunate injury.
I do think Guardiola and the Bayern board need to really get their shit together.
If Schweinsteiger and Thiago are injured simultaneously which they most definitely will be more than once this season Bayern only has Lahm left in CM (and Rode, Hojbjerg, and Gaudino but will that be enough to challenge for the CL??).
They could perhaps play Alaba next to Lahm but would have to start Bernat and Rafinha as fullbacks then.
Can anyone please tell me why on earth Guardiola wants to switch to that 3-4-3 anyway with Alaba as Left CB in a 3 man defense?? Alaba is a beast offensively and he wants to take his strength from him by playing him as a CB?
Bayern lack another top class CM and a top class CB now with Martinez out. They need to get active on the transfer market again or teams like Real will destroy them again. I do think Badstuber can possibly be great for them again but even then they're stuck with only 3 CBs of which one started in Brazil's 7-1 home loss in the WC Semis.
As things stand right now I could see Dortmund winning the league once again unless Robben has a Spain-type game every matchday.
They need a Vidal and a Benatia type player right now only that Vidal would probably be way too expensive. Not sure really who they could back as a CM reinforcment.
If Schweinsteiger and Thiago are injured simultaneously which they most definitely will be more than once this season Bayern only has Lahm left in CM (and Rode, Hojbjerg, and Gaudino but will that be enough to challenge for the CL??).
They could perhaps play Alaba next to Lahm but would have to start Bernat and Rafinha as fullbacks then.
Can anyone please tell me why on earth Guardiola wants to switch to that 3-4-3 anyway with Alaba as Left CB in a 3 man defense?? Alaba is a beast offensively and he wants to take his strength from him by playing him as a CB?
Bayern lack another top class CM and a top class CB now with Martinez out. They need to get active on the transfer market again or teams like Real will destroy them again. I do think Badstuber can possibly be great for them again but even then they're stuck with only 3 CBs of which one started in Brazil's 7-1 home loss in the WC Semis.
As things stand right now I could see Dortmund winning the league once again unless Robben has a Spain-type game every matchday.
They need a Vidal and a Benatia type player right now only that Vidal would probably be way too expensive. Not sure really who they could back as a CM reinforcment.
Looks like selling Kroos could haunt Bayern sooner than I expected.
What games of last season are we even talking about? Imo they dropped a lot more points because they failed to convert their chances, individual defensive errors or their weakness when defending set pieces than some systematical vulnerability.
What?? Nothing about their defensive approach is not organized, it's quite the opposite. The counterpressing (and even that is very organized because it wouldn't work at all if someone doesn't know exactly what he is supposed to do) is only the first phase of their approach, the second sees them falling back and defend mostly in a 4-4-2 shape, that shifts around the ball and is very hard to break down, unless someone makes a mistake.
Dortmund's back 6 has not changed at all (apart from adding Gündogan, Sokratis, Ginter and Durm) over the past couple of years, so I don't see why they suddenly have a lack of quality in that department.
Not sure how you can call Sahin garbage... He probably won't reach the heights of his title winning season because teams now approach Dortmund in a completely different manner, but he was still a solid and reliable player, who played every single game for them.
When have you witnessed a 'collapse on a bad day'?
Who? Bender got his facial bones broken a lot,other than that it was mostly small stuff. Kehl probably has the worst injury history but he isn't a starter anyway. Other than those two I don't recall anyone who would qualify.
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I always thought that ACL injuries were from putting weight on ligaments at an awkward angle, as with Vidic's vs Basel, but Martinez's seemed more of a contact injury. Shame for him, hopefully makes Bundesliga a bit more competitive this year.
Well, perhaps not PRONE, but I recall taht Gundogan was out for a long time, and not the first, Subotic missed a lot of last season and their sidebacks has mostly been youngsters. Mkhitaryan had some issues if I'm not wrong as well, and Reus missed the last portion of the season if I got that right.
Besides his current injury Gündogan had exactly one injury that took him out for more than a week at Dortmund.
Subotic ruptured his ACL last season, other than that he had a broken face and two minor muscle injuries in the last 4-5 years.
Mkhitaryan sprained his ankle during a pre season friendly other than that he wasn't injured at all for Dortmund.
Reus missed around 2 or 3 weeks after the Winter break other than that he didn't miss a game last season. The injury that cost him the WC came from a bad challenge in a preparation friendly.
Ok, thanks for the recap
They are crazy, losing Kroos for few money.
I doubt we had much chance to keep him longterm when Real got involved. Kroos never bonded with the club as much as most of our homegrown players do, he was never really part of the family, the fans never identified with him, so when Real came calling, it wasn't about money anymore (even though our club tried to paint it that way instead of accepting that we lost him to a bigger club). The big question was if we keep him for one more year and let him leave on a free or sell him this summer and I'm pretty sure Pep made that decision, because he didn't want to keep an unhappy player and prefered to build around players who will be here longterm.
Of course it sucks now with Thiago still not fit and Martinez out for at least 6 months. Let's hope that Schweinsteiger stays healthy throughout this season, then we should be fine.
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@do.ob: i really enjoy your posts! good work, mate
It was not Real - but any of the top clubs like Real, Barcelona or Man Utd (in another year with another manager) would have done it. Kroos never played the role in Munich that he wanted to play - and did not feel (and did not get it and it did not look for the future either) the appreciation he wanted. And no - it for sure was not only a money thing even if money often shows you how much you get appreciated. It is like - show me how much you value me...
But it is obvious that the main reasons for the Kroos story have more to do with stuff off the pitch than on the pitch.
But - yesterday for sure was no Kroos match. We have played all matches in which we heavily lost against Dortmund (and looked about the same) with Kroos.
Of course no team wants to lose their matches, but Supercup matches are just that, if you win it, great, but the team that lost it aren't exactly going to lose sleep over it.
I´m not gonna write something about this whole system debate of Dortmund. I have done so several times in the past and do.ob has covered it nicely this time.
So, how about a different topic?
According to the kicker Wolfsburg has finally found their big striker transfer: Nicklas Bendtner.......
It does not happen often that I´m that underwhelmed by a transfer. I always said that I see Wolfsburg thanks to their financial backing by VW as the most promising candidate for the spot as Germany´s number three, but this transfer window does not scream ambition to me. As it stands now I see them having a hard time breaking into the top 4 of the league. They have with Gladbach an opponent on eye level, who made another step in the right direction IMO and Schalke and Leverkusen have young and hungry squads, where a lot will depend on how the talents develop and deliver.
Bayern and Dortmund are completely out of their reach and will probably have a duel at the top for the title. The former were unreachable in the first place and the latter have distanced themselves further this summer.
So, how about a different topic?
According to the kicker Wolfsburg has finally found their big striker transfer: Nicklas Bendtner.......
It does not happen often that I´m that underwhelmed by a transfer. I always said that I see Wolfsburg thanks to their financial backing by VW as the most promising candidate for the spot as Germany´s number three, but this transfer window does not scream ambition to me. As it stands now I see them having a hard time breaking into the top 4 of the league. They have with Gladbach an opponent on eye level, who made another step in the right direction IMO and Schalke and Leverkusen have young and hungry squads, where a lot will depend on how the talents develop and deliver.
Bayern and Dortmund are completely out of their reach and will probably have a duel at the top for the title. The former were unreachable in the first place and the latter have distanced themselves further this summer.
They are better off without him then with him in the squad. Waste of space and wages in my opinion.
Finally watched the game. Fascinating. Not sure how you play your way out against a press as good as Dortmund's looked. Lahm was the only midfielder the Bayern D seemed to trust to receive the ball, so Thiago and Schweinsteiger should help. With Javi M being out, I assume they'll go back to 4 at the back, but who knows with Guardiola.
Dortmund should be scary in the CL. Not sure about the league. They'll need to be really strong defensively to put up the point total Bayern will.
Dortmund should be scary in the CL. Not sure about the league. They'll need to be really strong defensively to put up the point total Bayern will.
Haha. I have no problems with that.
He had all these problems and so on. Never part of the family is a bit strong but that comes down to personal feeling. As long as no one says that we couldnt pay the money Reall offered(because that is bu******) Im fine.
Im with you on that point. The supercup is a trophy and you play against a great team. Neither is happening every day. Its an important game and we lost.
But we had our B team out there. All ok on that front.
P.S. Is your name a reference to a Disney series? Some bells ringing.
Many people seem to forget how close the game in Madrid was. Till Reals goal we controlled the game and I can remember even the Sky Sports guys raving about that part.
We got 1 early goal in München and had to open up. Then we got destroyed. But the team was beaten after the 2:0 mentally and you can understand that. After the last entcounters which Bayern won(2007,12) Real had its turn. Happens.
We will have a great season IF we can handle injuries and buy a new defensive midfielder.
Well, it is a "refined" version of "Lé Quack" from courage the cowardly dog. You take the "quack" out of that and add something that rhymes and at the same time sound like an actual character (which I have no reference to whatsoever, just imagining that something like this could exist(and because being attacked by a quacker is a bizzare image)). In the end it was a version of the courage character and something else...Not sure how else I can explain it:P
What You are refering to is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald's_Quack_Attack :P
I have some questions for any german football fans here.
- Your thoughts on Bayern as a club and their dominance?
- What is the general thoughts on Bayern Germany wide?
- What do you think of Dortmund?
- Do you ever think Leverkusen could win anything?
- Do you wish that the Bundesliga would be easier to watch in other countries?
Wolfsburg seem close to signing World Class Striker...
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Bendtner.
Oh Wolfsburg...
...
...
Bendtner.
Oh Wolfsburg...
1. As a Bayernfan a "bit" biased here. We grew as a club and that the others arent so close is in parts their own fault. And a strong Bayern kept the Bundesliga up there as a top 4 league in the late 2000s.
But in terms of top teams the Bundesliga is behind England and Spain in numbers(2 in Germany, 3 in Spain, 4 or 5 in England). I hope that Schalke,Wolfsburg and perhaps RB Leipzig can reach similar levels in the next decade.
The league had 4 champions since 2007 and is crazy competitve. Bayern isnt bad for the league(big time at least).
2. Generally feeling is 50:50 in terms of fans/admirers and other clubs fans/haters.
3. Great history and back in the top 10 in europe. As a German I love that they push the league but specially this year Klopp(who I loved) and other big guys from the club went a bit too far with their "Bayern thing".
4.They are building a great team. If you look at their talents(U20 guys) and the younger guns its really exciting. Bayer(the company who owns the club) put some extra big money into the club. I hated their behavior in europe the last years but with their new coach(who is a fan of pressing attacking football) better times could be ahead.
5. Fox is helping there next year. Till then fans have streams and other channels. All ok.
Yeah. I know. But they bring good football to the East. And they suffered hard there in football terms.
And as long as RB bring a good show I can live with that.