too much hate for Hamburg 
Bundesliga, DFB Cup, and other Bundesliga business 2014/2015
- Thread starter ManniKaltz
- Start date
I'm afraid such a thing does not exist.too much hate for Hamburg
It is a little unfair. I like this Cup first rounds as the teams from the 3rd and 2nd leagues usually start weeks prior to the Bundesliga teams and as for them it is the match of their lifes they are often closer than people would estimate. It gets more difficult for them in the later rounds as the Bundesliga teams then function better. I am always pretty glad when Bayern gets through well - if not they talk about it the next 20 years - like with Vestenbergsgreuth...
And I like that there is just one leg. Makes it a lot more interesting...
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The less he played the better he got and Klopp constantly telling the world in press conferences how close he is to being a starter and how tough the decision is to leave him on the bench didn't help. Klopp was clearly taking the piss.
I love you!
I do agree in general that the point of time favours the smaller sides, because they are more in rythm and motivated. However, I don´t think this reasoning can be applied in the cases of Hamburg or Schalke. They play(ed) teams, which were relegated this Summer. This is a massive cut for a club, including a huge change in the team and losing the majority of the spine. Both Dresden and Cottbus are basically completely new teams. They play together for maybe two months now and thus are not comparable to sides like Münster or Kickers for example.
This might be just my general feeling right now and I know that the first round of the cup is not the ideal measure stick for form, but I think that the Bundesliga teams did really poorly this year:
Out of the 18 Bundesliga teams:
- 5 (Mainz, Stuttgart, Paderborn, Augsburg and Schalke) did not make the cut at all
- 3 (Hamburg, Wolfsburg and Bremen) needed the extra time with the first two just going through with Penalties
- 5 (Gladbach, Freiburg Berlin, Frankfurt and Hannover) struggled at least temporarily against competition below the 3. league aka amateur level teams
Out of the remaining five teams Hoffenheim, Leverkusen and Cologne won their games without trouble, but they also did not face professional teams. Dortmund had their work cut out for them vs. the Stuttgarter Kickers (3. league) and the game was closer than the score line would suggest.
In the end the only team which won their game convincingly against a professional team was Bayern Munich, which dominated Preußen Münster pretty much the whole game.
The results this year really show how important motivation and playing rythm is I guess. That and I think that the general level of football has increased in the lower leagues, especially the 3. league. The relatively new system has its short comings especially in the financial sense, but it seems to do the job it was intended to do: Rise the quality in the lower leagues.
Out of the 18 Bundesliga teams:
- 5 (Mainz, Stuttgart, Paderborn, Augsburg and Schalke) did not make the cut at all
- 3 (Hamburg, Wolfsburg and Bremen) needed the extra time with the first two just going through with Penalties
- 5 (Gladbach, Freiburg Berlin, Frankfurt and Hannover) struggled at least temporarily against competition below the 3. league aka amateur level teams
Out of the remaining five teams Hoffenheim, Leverkusen and Cologne won their games without trouble, but they also did not face professional teams. Dortmund had their work cut out for them vs. the Stuttgarter Kickers (3. league) and the game was closer than the score line would suggest.
In the end the only team which won their game convincingly against a professional team was Bayern Munich, which dominated Preußen Münster pretty much the whole game.
The results this year really show how important motivation and playing rythm is I guess. That and I think that the general level of football has increased in the lower leagues, especially the 3. league. The relatively new system has its short comings especially in the financial sense, but it seems to do the job it was intended to do: Rise the quality in the lower leagues.
It's just funny to see Hamburg struggle after what has been going around the club lately. With people talking about the "Rebirth" of the HSV, going back to the basics, getting the best manager (lol) in the league and now having to show how much they improved. You know what? I didn't see jack improvement compared to the last four pityful years so far. And that to me is just funny seeing how I actually live in Hamburg and a lot of the adamant Hamburg fans around me started talking about Europe yet again before the season has even started. Kühne too has stated that he expects Hamburg to make at least rank nine this season. I personally find immense enjoyment in seeing these people get a call from reality reminding them that Hamburg is actually a side battling relegation and not a top team like they pretend they are.
Well, it's Klopp we're talking about. I don't think there is any manager in the world right now who can get more out of an average player (provided he suits his style of play) than Klopp. Santana just managed to complement both Subotic and Hummels very well. I actually fully believe that Klopp genuinely thought that. I mean we're talking about the guy who turned Oliver Kirch into a player that can easily play Champions League level football. Plus what is he supposed to say? "He's utter shit and he'll never be a starter"? That sure is gonna motivate him.
@Sphaero
It is not really surprising, or? I would like to know the age average in the lower leagues. The academy systems and the extra training units on regional level started 2000. The players age 25 have gotten special treatment since they are about 10 or 12.
Players like Nils Teixera in Dresden's team who played 4 years for Bayer Leverkusen's youth department - or Benjamin Kirsten who was at Leverkusen until he got 20 have had that at big clubs. Another one of the Dresden team today was David Vržogić who ran through all Dortmund youth departments, made a year in Ahlen until he played 3 years for Bayern's U23.
If I just look at this Dresden team - they totally consist of players born year 87 and later - only one player born in 1980 and he has not played a match until today...
It is not really surprising, or? I would like to know the age average in the lower leagues. The academy systems and the extra training units on regional level started 2000. The players age 25 have gotten special treatment since they are about 10 or 12.
Players like Nils Teixera in Dresden's team who played 4 years for Bayer Leverkusen's youth department - or Benjamin Kirsten who was at Leverkusen until he got 20 have had that at big clubs. Another one of the Dresden team today was David Vržogić who ran through all Dortmund youth departments, made a year in Ahlen until he played 3 years for Bayern's U23.
If I just look at this Dresden team - they totally consist of players born year 87 and later - only one player born in 1980 and he has not played a match until today...
The DFB/DFL should have refused Dortmund their license for 2014/15.
I mean you can forgive losing against Hamburg once...but twice in 2 seasons.
Which one of those games was the one were Weidenfehler looked really bad and basically gifted HSV two goals?
Or maybe not gifted them the goals but when I saw the game I thought 'WTF Wiedenfeller, normally you save those shots'.
After the game I read that Weidenfeller was ill before the game but then Klopp shouldn't have selected him I guess.
A lot of things changed in the club, and I'm not talking about players but the structures in general. That is what people mean when talking about "rebirth", because what was going on behind the scenes was really shocking (Aufsichtsrat etc.).
And I don't like this generalization of all fans, there's always fans who are more optimistic than others most I know just want a season not being close to relegation.
As already stated you can't read too much into one DFB-Pokal game, I mean we were not the only team that struggled, right? 3rd place Schalke just lost to Dresden… Most of our new signings didn't play either.
Funny thing is, they actually lost 3 times. They lost 3-2 in the away game in Hamburg as well in the 12/13 season.
We actually lost to them three times over the last two seasons. The last six matches have actually all been quite entertaining.
Dortmund - Hamburg 3:1
Hamburg - Dortmund 1:5
Hamburg - Dortmund 3:2
Dortmund - Hamburg 1:4
Dortmund - Hamburg 6:2
Hamburg - Dortmund 3:0
That's 31 goals (!) in six games. Always something going on when those two teams play each other. Every great team has their odd day out, for Borussia this just happened to be against Hamburg the last two seasons. Two incredibly uninspired performance, with especially the one earlier this year lacking any real effort. Well, what can you do, for us it didn't end up mattering in the long run.
I agree that the restructuring was necessary and long overdue. But a lot of people seem to think that with that all the problems concerning the teams performance will instantly disappear as well. And that's as wrong as it can be. It will take a very long time before we can talk about a so called "Rebirth" concerning the actual football team. This is still an average Bundesliga team put together without any thought behind it not knowing what the hell they should do on the pitch. That's how it has been for the last four years. The behind the scenes stuff is all fine and dandy but we should not forget that those kind of things do not directly effect how a team performs.
I'm not generalising, this is just the impression I get from the people around me. I grew up and still live in a very HSV heavy environment. In addition to that I have actually worked for the club before, getting to know a lot of people in and outside of the club. So I do get a lot of impressions, which just seem overly positive to me, especially for a side that has just barely escaped relegation and still hasn't gotten the improvements it has needed for years now.
Yeah, but that game was away from home and had a close scoreline as opposed to the 0:3 and and 1:4.
It's really funny. I didn't really dislike Hamburg 6 or 7 years ago. Now I do; maybe because claim and reality are so far apart now and I also don't like Kühne.
Now I'm at a point where I just want to see their BL-clock to stop.
Yeah, all the Dortmund Hamburg games I saw in the last years were highly entertaining.
Speaking about entertaining...I loved Hoffenheim last season. The amount of goals in their games (I think over 4 goals per game) was just insane. If they continue that way I won't mind Hoppenheim staying in the league long-term at all.
After years of mismanagement it is very important that new foundations were laid and it's just good to hear that there's no "Maulwurf" in the club anymore who gives contract details of all players to the press or anything like that.
Maybe listen to some interviews of Rieckhoff or Beiersdorfer and they will say exactly what you wrote, it will take a long time until the football team can finally be a top 5 team in the Bundesliga again.
I do really rate Beiersdorfer though and I'm very happy with the transfers, In my view it is a team put together with very much thought as it was strengthened in key areas (CM, LB, RW, ST).
Agree to disagree about the situation then, but in my opinion most fans finally realized that this team is not a CL team or anything. How come you worked for the club and have such a dislike against it, I'm interested. And as you know there's now a lot of different people working at the top (Beiersdorfer, Peters etc.) so that "positive impression" is most likely gone.
You just summed up Hamburg´s biggest problem in my eyes. There are not alone in this, though. There are other big city clubs like Hertha or Cologne for example, who also have similar problems, although not to the same extend because Hamburg has also their rich history that puts pressure on them.
It is understandable to some degree, because professional sport in general is a lot about representation and some of the citizen of these world known big cities want sports teams to represent them, preferably on the highest level.
This of course leads more often than not to lofty expectations and a lack of patience. Hertha needed to crash and burn before people began to rethink their approach and the pragmatic, calm and stoic Luhukay played a big role here as counter weight to the hysteria that still comes up from time to time.
I truly believe that it would have done Hamburg good in the long run to go down for one year in the 2. league, rebuild and come back up again. I personally rate Slomka quite highly but I don´t think he will get a fair chance to build something up there, because he already has immense pressure to deliver in the short term.
I think that most people know about the story, that Jürgen Klopp had two big offers in 2008. One from Hamburg and one from Dortmund. Hamburg in the end pulled back their offer because Klopp did not suit their vision of a coach of a big city club like Hamburg.
I often hear Hamburg fans talking how they could now be in Dortmund´s shoes if they would have chosen Klopp as coach back then and I disagree with that. Not because I think that Hamburg would not have the potential as a club, they do and waste it for years now. I do think that Klopp would not have had the same impact there as in Dortmund. I remember a period in early 2009 when we had a dry spell of 8-9 games, when the results were not really there and we played poorly in general. The papers already jumped on it and began to doubt Klopp´s role there. At that point Hamburg would have already begun to discuss his position. Officials and club legends like Seeler would have given their unwanted opinion on the case and there would be unrest in the club.
At Dortmund there were no such discussions. There was no doubt and the officials gave Klopp the ultimate sign of trust: they renewed his contract for an additional two years. They did not look at the short term results, but believed in Klopp´s vision, ideas and plan and he repayed them tenfold in the long run. In hindsight the decision seems logical and easy but back then it was a controversial one. Even now, more than five years later Klopp often remarks that a major part of his emotional connection (which built over time) and loyalty towards Dortmund resulted from the unwavering trust he always received from the club. He was given time to create the team he envisioned without much pressure. It did not happen over night.
What I want to say is, that Hamburg won´t be successful unless they stop to just look at short term results and show some patience. The potential for growth is there, but they have to actually use it.
That's very simple. It's actually the reason most people dislike the HSV: The attitude surrounding the club. Officials and fans just seem to have the tendency to rave about how big of a club Hamburg is, how much tradition they have and how the club was never once relegated. It is really obnoxious, borderline arrogant. Germany has a lot of clubs with a lot of tradition and a glamouros past like Frankfurt, Nürnberg, Gladbach and many many more. But people in Hamburg (yes, I know I'm generalizing, you should know how I mean it) always seem to think that they should be higher than they are, that they should be the club competing against Bayern for the title. That they should play in the Champions League since they are such a big club. Well, newsflash, that is not what football is about. In football nobody cares what happened 20 years (or in Hamburgs case 30 years) ago. All that counts is the here and now. I always used to hear it whenever Hamburg went up against a "small" club like Mainz or Freiburg. "A club like Hamburg should be able to beat them no problem!" Where does this perception come from? From winning a European Cup 31 years ago? From winning your last piece of silverware 27 years ago? All that counts is the work being done here and now. And clubs like Freiburg and Mainz do a way better job of that than the HSV seems to be able to, not being able to establish a philosophy or a concept of play over many many years. I love the city of Hamburg. It's my home, it always will be. It's just a shame that the most popular football club is such a joke. I like whats's being done in Hamburg right now (I know about all the things you are talking about, you don't need to tell me) and I really want to like the HSV but as the saying goes "Der Fisch stinkt vom Kopfe her", a simple restructuring won't fix all the problems surrounding the club, especially the ones concerning the general attitude, which is probably the major one, being responsible for Hamburg throwing away coaches like candy, resulting in them not developping at all.
Whatever creativity they've got is wasted on Bendtner, really have to feel for De Bruyne.
Schalke out of the Pokal then? They are off to a good start.
Hmm, again agree to disagree then. you are really overstating the whole situation though.
Take a look in this thread for instance: http://www.transfermarkt.de/erwartungen-an-die-saison-2014-2015/thread/forum/13/thread_id/596858
It's the same as this talk: "Hamburg win one game and they see themelves in the Champions League!", it's really tiresome these days.
I said it before I'll say it again, most things in your post are vastly exaggerated (as also seen in the link) and couldn't be further from the truth. We are all football fans, we want our team to do well, but there is no perception as you like to portray in your post.
New Bayern partnership - they want to improve technology in player data and data available for the fans, too.
With Bayern losing Schweinsteiger and Martinez, hopefully Dortmund can have a better crack at the title.
Handelsblatt reporting that Dortmund will announce 2 new investors tomorrow.
Signal Iduna and Puma are expected to buy 24,6 million new shares of the club. 110 million and more money is expected.
New sponsor deals and so on too.
Dortmund would take a great step forward if that is true.
As a Bayernfan I would be happy for the league and German football overall.
http://www.handelsblatt.com/unterne...ruestet-zum-angriff-auf-den-fcb/10360704.html (German)
Signal Iduna and Puma are expected to buy 24,6 million new shares of the club. 110 million and more money is expected.
New sponsor deals and so on too.
Dortmund would take a great step forward if that is true.
As a Bayernfan I would be happy for the league and German football overall.
http://www.handelsblatt.com/unterne...ruestet-zum-angriff-auf-den-fcb/10360704.html (German)
Bayern must be contagious or something
Similar to them we pick up one injury after another in the central midfield. With Gündogan still being missing for weeks and after Sahin picking up an injury a few weeks ago, now we lose our midfield phenomenon Kirch (our best CM in pre season) until mid October.
Let´s hope that at least our destroyer Bender gets back into playing shape enough to make the bench on Saturday. Otherwise we are spread awfully thin in that area.
On top of that, Ji, Kuba and Schmelzer will also miss the whole start of the league season. Durm and Ramos are at least questionable for the game vs. Leverkusen. Hummels and Weidenfeller returned late from the WC and Subotic and Reus need game time badly to get back into top shape.
Seriously, I look at us, Schalke and Bayern and see squads which struggle with injuries before the season even started properly. Then I look at Leverkusen and they don´t have even one fecking injured player on top of their advantage of having the least amount of WC players among the top 4 challenger. I dunno what they put into the water over there, but their luck with injuries has been disgusting for a while now.
Similar to them we pick up one injury after another in the central midfield. With Gündogan still being missing for weeks and after Sahin picking up an injury a few weeks ago, now we lose our midfield phenomenon Kirch (our best CM in pre season) until mid October.
Let´s hope that at least our destroyer Bender gets back into playing shape enough to make the bench on Saturday. Otherwise we are spread awfully thin in that area.
On top of that, Ji, Kuba and Schmelzer will also miss the whole start of the league season. Durm and Ramos are at least questionable for the game vs. Leverkusen. Hummels and Weidenfeller returned late from the WC and Subotic and Reus need game time badly to get back into top shape.
Seriously, I look at us, Schalke and Bayern and see squads which struggle with injuries before the season even started properly. Then I look at Leverkusen and they don´t have even one fecking injured player on top of their advantage of having the least amount of WC players among the top 4 challenger. I dunno what they put into the water over there, but their luck with injuries has been disgusting for a while now.
... who is Vize- or Looserkusen. At the end it will be the same with them as every season...
Well, if they refuse to actually win stuff, they can give the actual challengers for trophies some of their luck, right?
On another topic, Borussia Dortmund announced as predicted today the sell of club shares to Signal Iduna, Puma and Evonik for around 115 Mil. €. Signal Iduna also renewed their contract about the naming rights of the Westfalenstadium until 2026 with better conditions (I don´t have concrete numbers right now, though).
A considerable part of the money will be used to pay off the stadium completely and appearantly get out of an unfavourable sponsorship deal (the so called SportsFive deal for anyone interested) which we made in darker days. This will make us completely free of debt and is alone expected to grant us around 20 Mil. € more per year.
This represents another step in CEO Watzke´s plan to breach the annual revenue mark of 300 Mil. € (without transfer income) in the near future (260 Mil. € last season). This would also include a considerable planned rise of the wage bill from 70 to around 120 Mil. € (from my impression these are the base payments without performance based bonuses). Its a clear sign from the club to the players that new contracts would include hefty pay rises. The first target for that is obviously Marco Reus. Here the investment of Puma could also play a role in the ongoing negotiations.
Needless to say, that these are fantastic news for Dortmund and will further cement their status as Germany´s clear number two on and besides the pitch.
I think that news will pressure Schalke a lot more than Bayern.
Probably. And I think that Reus might not only want to have more money but get titles - and the Supercup ain't one of it...
(I do not mean that in connection with Bayern - if Bayern would think they could get Reus or if they would want him Rummenigge would have been quiet...)
Can you elaborate? Asking out of genuine interest and ignorance.
Matchday 01, 22/08/14 - 24/08/14
Bundesliga starts in 60 minutes with Bayern - Wolfsburg
Line up: Neuer - Dante, Lewandowski, Robben, Gaudino, Bernat, Götze, Lahm (K), Müller, Alaba, Badstuber
Substitutes: Reina - Shaqiri, Pizarro, Scholl, Rode, Hojbjerg Green
and I've not the slightest clue how that'll look as a formation
. We can't seriously play a back 3 with 3 left footed centerbacks in Alaba, Dante and Badstuber, right? It really sucks that Boateng is suspended additional to all our injuries.
Wolfsburg:
Grün - Jung, Naldo, Knoche, Rodriguez - Luiz Gustavo, Guilavogui - De Bruyne, Hunt, Vieirinha - Olic
Line up: Neuer - Dante, Lewandowski, Robben, Gaudino, Bernat, Götze, Lahm (K), Müller, Alaba, Badstuber
Substitutes: Reina - Shaqiri, Pizarro, Scholl, Rode, Hojbjerg Green
and I've not the slightest clue how that'll look as a formation
. We can't seriously play a back 3 with 3 left footed centerbacks in Alaba, Dante and Badstuber, right? It really sucks that Boateng is suspended additional to all our injuries.Wolfsburg:
Grün - Jung, Naldo, Knoche, Rodriguez - Luiz Gustavo, Guilavogui - De Bruyne, Hunt, Vieirinha - Olic
Bundesliga starts in 60 minutes with Bayern - Wolfsburg
Line up: Neuer - Dante, Lewandowski, Robben, Gaudino, Bernat, Götze, Lahm (K), Müller, Alaba, Badstuber
Substitutes: Reina - Shaqiri, Pizarro, Scholl, Rode, Hojbjerg Green
and I've not the slightest clue how that'll look as a formation
Wolfsburg:
Grün - Jung, Naldo, Knoche, Rodriguez - Luiz Gustavo, Guilavogui - De Bruyne, Hunt, Vieirinha - Olic
You are not the only one that does not know it. Surprising somehow that he let's 17-year-old Gaudino start and not Höjbjerg.
The bench - three under 20 and two over 30
Sky thinks it is this formation - I somehow doubt it...
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Müller - Lewandowski - Robben
Götze
Alaba/Lahm - Gaudino
Bernart - Dante - Badstuber - Lahm/Alaba
Neuer
I really hope, that he is going for something like that. He always used PEH or Rafinhia as RWB, right?
Götze
Alaba/Lahm - Gaudino
Bernart - Dante - Badstuber - Lahm/Alaba
Neuer
I really hope, that he is going for something like that. He always used PEH or Rafinhia as RWB, right?
I wouldn't mind Rode in the team actually. He had a very good pre-season and if he doesn't start now with all our injuries in midfield, when exactly will he ever get a start? I'm pretty sure Lahm will play in midfield, we can't start with Alaba, Gaudino and Götze in midfield, that would be insane. Which leads back to the back 3 with 3 leftfooted players
Müller - Lewandowski - Robben
Götze
Bernat ----- Gaudino
Lahm
Alaba - Badstuber - Dante
Neuer
Something like that? That can't ever work Götze
Bernat ----- Gaudino
Lahm
Alaba - Badstuber - Dante
Neuer
. But I can't come up with anything that looks better defensively.and I've not the slightest clue how that'll look as a formation
Why not? A lot of the things we've tried in the last months made little to no sense to me, and since he seems to be very much in love with this weird, unattractive and so far inefficient back 3 I wouldn't put it past Pep to go full lefty. He repeated once again that he wants to adapt to the player material he has, but I have little hope that we will be able unleash the same power we had 2 years ago. God, I wish we could play the old 4-2-3-1 again
As for today: Psyched! I expect a horrible game and I don't care because feck it, it's finally on again!
Arnold on the bench for Wolfsburg... booooo! Instead they play fecking Hunt.
That would be a complete left footed back four if Lahm plays in midfield
. And if Lahm is the rightback, then Alaba and Gaudino as our defensiv midfielders? That's equally insane. Whatever way you look at it, we either need to score a shitload of goals or we never ever, not even once, should lose the ball.There's only one way I can see you avoiding that: Neuer - Bernat, Badstuber, Dante, Lahm - Alaba, Gaudino - Götze, Müller, Robben - Lewandowski. However, that seems a bit boring for Pep, I'm counting on a cool 3-3-1-3 with Gaudino as the only real CM. Make it happen!Bundesliga starts in 60 minutes with Bayern - Wolfsburg
Line up: Neuer - Dante, Lewandowski, Robben, Gaudino, Bernat, Götze, Lahm (K), Müller, Alaba, Badstuber
Substitutes: Reina - Shaqiri, Pizarro, Scholl, Rode, Hojbjerg Green
and I've not the slightest clue how that'll look as a formation
Wolfsburg:
Grün - Jung, Naldo, Knoche, Rodriguez - Luiz Gustavo, Guilavogui - De Bruyne, Hunt, Vieirinha - Olic
The last two matches against Wolfsburg were decided with Müller goals in minute 63...
Good for us. I don't rate Hunt at all.
Indeed, I don't rate Hunt either.
By the way, didn't you play Götze behind two strikers in the Supercup? Something like this: Neuer - Alaba, Badstuber, Dante - Bernat, Gaudino, Lahm, Müller - Götze - Lewandowski, Robben ? Really hard to call...
Well, without Martinez and Schweinsteiger ever being 100% fit, that's pretty much impossible anyway, doesn't matter what tactics Guardiola uses. If we finally get Thiago, Schweinsteiger and Martinez fully fit for the 2nd half of the season, everything is possible in my opinion.Why not? A lot of the things we've tried in the last months made little to no sense to me, and since he seems to be very much in love with this weird, unattractive and so far inefficient back 3 I wouldn't put it past Pep to go full lefty. He repeated once again that he wants to adapt to the player material he has, but I have little hope that we will be able unleash the same power we had 2 years ago. God, I wish we could play the old 4-2-3-1 again
As for today: Psyched! I expect a horrible game and I don't care because feck it, it's finally on again!