Yeah, it's annoying, but it also shows that the league is still really competitive, it's just the big problem that we're still truely awesome
.Bundesliga, DFB Cup, and other Bundesliga business 2014/2015
- Thread starter ManniKaltz
- Start date
.Yeah, it's annoying, but it also shows that the league is still really competitive, it's just the big problem that we're still truely awesome
Trust me, we did not drop points in the last four games because the opposition was that good. We gifted them goals and then could not really answer to that. We might not have deserved to lose every of these games, but we surely did not deserve to win either.
Right now, Bayern profits from the weakness of the other supposed top clubs.
They go with the age of Müller right now. He was 23 when it was no. 23. He was 24 when it was no. 24. And it will be 25 when he is 25.
It will be 30 when he is ...
Neuer has not conceded a goal in the last 658 minutes (last 28 minutes vs Schalke & matches vs VFB, City, HSV, Paderborn, Köln, CSKA & H96).
Don't really care what you guys do. If we continue to play on the level we're now, no team can beat us to a league title.
He already holds the overall record for longest period of not conceding a goal if you use all competitions. He needs to set the fecking Bundesliga record, it's a travesty that fecking Timo Hildebrand stole that one from Kahn
You would need to care, if we would do our goddamn job. With the exception of the Leverkusen game every freaking loss or draw was avoidable and resulted in playing way under our level even with all the injuries. What we played in this first half today was a fecking disgrace for the Dortmund under Klopp.
Nope, I'd enjoy the rivalry a lot more and would celebrate Hamburg still being bottom of the table. I wouldn't get nervous though.
it would be great to have every single of bayern's records as its own badge on the shirt. they'd look like north-korean army generals.
Yeah, it's annoying, but it also shows that the league is still really competitive, it's just the big problem that we're still truely awesome
At the moment the situation seems to emphasize the weaknesses of the big teams more than the strengths of the average Bundesliga club.
However I think Borussia Mönchengladbach and TSG Hoffenheim have both a chance to remain in the top-third of the Bundesliga table. I rate both Gisdol and especially Favre highly and they also have the necessary squad depth.
I'm a bit worried that Gladbach's squad depth might not be enough with the Europa League games. Their game against Mainz tomorrow will tell us a lot about how good they can deal with playing Thursday and Sunday.
That is it. Nobody needs to blame Bayern as long the other teams just do not do their job. Two years ago at that time Bayern has not even lost a point at this time (the BVB was 9 points behind) - last season just two (the BVB was on level - with injuries and new players...). Now it is four. But... 10 points...
Yeah, it's annoying, but it also shows that the league is still really competitive, it's just the big problem that we're still truely awesome
Unfortunately I can't really see any team keeping up with you guys. Maybe if Gladbach or Leverkusen go on a really good run this season they can follow you with a 10-15 point deficit and drag out the inevitable but in reality I think the competition for the title this year looks even worse than last year. But I reckon Pep will have learned from last year and thought about ways to prevent a slump in form if you are winning the league this early again.
Maybe he will just test the WM formation again or some other weird formation and intentionally lose some games to prevent the gap getting too large too early.
What is going on with Dortmund? They are great in the CL but why are they so bad in the league?
I think one of the main reasons is that they have little to no creativity in their central midfield atm. which is hurting them badly against very defensive opponents which don't give them and space to counter attack. They are missing Sahin and Gündogan badly against those teams. But of course it also seems to be a bit of a mental blockade atm. They looked like they were shitting their pants to make a mistake at the start of the second half which of course din't help the situation.
So basically first their problem was that the entire starting back 4 was out with injuries and now it's that they are missing any creativity in central midfield and are affraid of losing against the weaker teams.
Dortmund was the only team that could in theory challenge us unless we feck up big time. Dortmund fecked up first though, which most likely means this is another boring season if you only look at the title race. There's no way that Gladbach or Leverkusen can finish above 70 points and I expect us to finish above 80. I'm not too worried about a comparable slump to the one last season after we won the title. Both the 11/12 and 12/13 seasons were incredibly draining in terms of mentality, an incredible rollercoaster ride between excitement and nightmare with the treble at the end and I was surprised that we could continue on that high level so long with all the injuries. As great as we played in the first half of last season, we never looked like a settled team that fully understood the manager. It's in my opinion different now, the tactics are much clearer now (at least I have the impression that the players understand them a lot better) and less experimental, the World Cup was kind of a mental break from club football and hopefully we'll have key players returning for the 2nd half of the season this time instead of losing them during the most important part like last season.Unfortunately I can't really see any team keeping up with you guys. Maybe if Gladbach or Leverkusen go on a really good run this season they can follow you with a 10-15 point deficit and drag out the inevitable but in reality I think the competition for the title this year looks even worse than last year. But I reckon Pep will have learned from last year and thought about ways to prevent a slump in form if you are winning the league this early again.
Maybe he will just test the WM formation again or some other weird formation and intentionally lose some games to prevent the gap getting too large too early.
Schaaf's Eintracht is playing some beautiful attacking football. Brilliant movement by Seferovic and an even better cross to Meier who equalizes against Köln. Ironically I thought they were a candidate for relegation after losing Jung, Rode and their captain Schwegler to bigger Bundesliga clubs.
The difference between Dortmund and Bayern...
Bayern rests its two top scorers so that they can be fit for the German team
Löw rests Großkreutz for Dortmund...
Bayern rests its two top scorers so that they can be fit for the German team
Löw rests Großkreutz for Dortmund...
Absolutely shocking how poor Dortmund have been this season. At this rate they will struggle to make top 4.
Well they certainly didn't last weekend. We completely dominated that game, had around 20 shots and only our terrible finishing let us down. All they did was defend with 10 men constantly behind the ball, yet they scored from 3 of their attempts. I still think they could go down easily.
Alonso vs Ron-Robert Zieler...
The difference between Dortmund and Bayern...
Bayern rests its two top scorers so that they can be fit for the German team
Löw rests Großkreutz for Dortmund...
The difference is that you have the luxury to rest players, because you have your whole offensive arsenal at your disposal bar one player. We on the other hand miss our two most important offensive midfielders, two other options there and every of our three CM.
The lack of our creative cutting edge is explainable right now, especially against deep sitting teams. The lack of intensity, fight and defensive stability is a completely different story, though. Klopp has it work cut out for him in the next weeks, but he also needs some players to return to actually react properly. Otherwise he is basically forced to play out of form players again.
Tragic
Someone tell Dortmund it's not just the Champions League that matters. Im fecking losing money here!
Sphaero. You miss Reus. I am not talking about Gündogan as he was not there last season. And not about Lewa because he is not available and you have 2 new players for him. And Lewa last season was not the killer in such matches either. You should know better than me. I have seen a statistic around winter in which they listed the participation of the strikers on decisive goals - and Lewa was down in that list with only one or two of the main strikers of the Bundesliga behind him. That might have changed later on - but was like this in the first half of the season. (that stats made me doubt if Lewa even if I see his technical qualities is really giving us the edge, I do not think that today was the match to show anything different as Hannover was just offering everything on a plate - but I want and see)
Dortmund last season had by far more goals like the other competitors (I let Bayern out of it) but had a little less goals out of open play than Gladbach, Schalke or Wolfsburg had. The difference often (it is not about the last weeks in which Reus had great matches) were goals after set-pieces, counter attacks and the penalties. That is were Reus is really missing. He is just great with his corners and freekicks.
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Bayern is not really on it either. But yes, sure on another level than Dortmund is. Alonso helped a lot. Without him it would have been more difficult. But today it helped that Hannover was really miserable. The other teams we played against really made it hard. Playing without Robben and with a Shaq who would like to be anywhere else but in Munich right now and a Götze that until 2 weeks ago looked for his form - + a Lewa that still searches his place - did not help it either. Müller got his first break today - Götze and Lewa would have in Hamburg but that misfired without Robben, too - since then Pep was playing without rotating.
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Even with Reus you had the problems last season. And Kagawa is a player that matches very well in Klopp's plan A - just that the plan A in the league does not function anymore like it did in your winning years. In Europe it still does where a Wenger thinks he can play an open match against you...
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I actually was just joking with this picture. I would have loved both of them playing and as they both had 5 assists or goals in our last seven goals I was really thinking today would get a difficult match...
Großkreutz stood for the interviews today even if this stupid "German team" questions came up. I guess he is playing against Gibraltar and in the test match against Spain in November when everybody else gets rested. But that is his chance to get matches for Germany and I think he like some others appreciate that, too. I guess he knows that he is not first choice but that he is in the row behind it and he could live very well with it during the World Cup.In 20 years nobody asks you anymore if your 20 caps have come from competition matches or from friendlies.
Hummels went at 17:34 home through the media zone without words to the press...
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I'd like to see a new club test Bayern. If Moenchengladbach beat Mainz they'll be the closest for the time being, but every "top" clubs just a level below Bayern seem to be shooting themselves.
End of the road for Klopp at Dortmund I feel. Knee-jerk perhaps but I'd be surprised if he's still there in two years, maybe less.
That's pathetic from the Hannover players there, no effort to get anywhere near Alonso
That's pathetic from the Hannover players there, no effort to get anywhere near Alonso
OK, first off if you want to tell how I should no better about my own team, you should check your sources better, because what you claim in the bold is factually wrong:
club/total goals/set pieces/open play
Dortmund: 80/29/51
Schalke: 63/16/47
Wolfsburg: 63/21/42
Gladbach: 59/don´t know the total number, but Nordveidt assisted 5 goals via a corner and Kruse converted 5 pens so at most 49
Now, I´m not going to dispute that Reus is our best offensive player, especially when it comes to breaking up defense lines and set pieces, but you make it yourself pretty easy here by pinning everything on his absence. You wanna know who the back up corner and free kick player for both Schmelzer and Reus is? Sahin. He is injured. The 3rd? Mkhitaryan. Also out.
Speaking of Mkhitaryan, you completely ignore him. If you don´t see his worth, fine, I will tell you. He is by far our best offensive pressing player and also the strongest in terms of general defensive contribution. His injury actually hurt us the most in the current state. With the shaky back line and disrupted CM/DM he was extremely valuable because he took a lot of pressure from them and gave us some much needed stability. He also created a lot of space offensively by binding opposing players. The results of his absence are bloody obvious.
Kuba gets also no mention, when our Polish right side was one of our most outstanding features if both are fit. There is nowhere else such a clear and strong synergy of two players in the squad.
Ji was basically signed as a relief option for the starters and both Großkreutz and Aubameyang could do well with a break right now, especially because both don´t play in their best positions right now because of the lack of alternatives.
In the CM I´m not necessarily speaking of Gündogan. We played well without him last season, because his replacement did a very solid job at filling the void. Despite what some might think Nuri Sahin played a good season. He rarely did something outstanding but aside of a three game spell in the last winter did what he was asked to do. He build up the game reliably and structured our game. On top of that he is our best CM in terms of defensive matters. His absence also hurts us, but would not be as bad if our third clear cut CM could take over.
Oliver Kirch made a surprising and impressive jump in his development despite his age. He continued where he left of in the Pre season, being our best and consistent player next to Mkhitaryan and Aubameyang.
We went into the season with three options for one position and all of them are injured. Instead of them we are forced to either play two DM next to each other or an out of form midfielder who is clearly better as AM.
I´m not going to use these injuries as sole reason for our poor form in the league, but if you think that no injury besides Reus´ matters, you are simply mistaken. We are not some kind of one man team and far less dependent on a single player than other teams.
I´m also honestly tired of this argument of our lack of a plan B vs. smaller sides in a normal state. There is nothing objective to back it up. Yes, we intensified our focus on set pieces, because they are an effective tool to open up the game. There is nothing wrong with it. I posted the results and statistics from the last season before and not gonna bother to do it again. It appearantly does not matter and if it makes you sleep better to think that, fine. After all "I should no better than you", right? Well, I actually do.
Pretty much this. There were always some standout players as far as I remember, make it be Barioss scoring goals, Götze, Sahin, Gündogan, Kagawa, Lewy and now Reus but we've always been praising BVB as a whole rather than singling out the players. It's always been the pressing game, aggressiveness, tactical plan and will to fight untill the end ( like against Malaga in CL ) that was impressive. For those features though, you need certain players, and when half of your squad falls apart and you're forced to play every third game, you're simply fecked. It's rather easy to understand as a United fan.
Feel sorry for BVB fans, they've got as shit injury record as ours and from a team that was joyful to watch they turned into some monstrosity that we've sometimes seen in our play.
The strange thing is in the CL they still played some great football. It's just in the Bundesliga where opponents just trying to strangle the game against them where they really struggle and of course those frequent concentration lapses in defense don't help either.
Maybe they should just play all their games in the eveneing and play the CL hymn before every game, maybe that will get them fired up again?
This btw is imo a really underestimated part as well. Your wing play has suffered so much since those two haven't been able to play a frequent amount of games together. Now the problem is that every opponent closes out the middle and stands deep waiting for counter attacks and the fact that your wing play on both sides pretty much sucks atm means you have no real weapon to break down these opponents. Add to all that the fact that there is no creative CM available for months now and it's not a surprise that you struggle against those defensive sides.
Unfortunately those bad games in the Bundesliga have also caused some kind of mental blockade and your players seem absolutely frightened out there on the field at times just take the start of the second half against Hamburg and I think I have never seen a team shitting their pants like Dortmund in those first 10 minutes of the second half.
Apparently Schmelzer broke his Hand last game and will be out for four weeks.
not a midfielder! yay!
About Dortmund and their injury list - yes that is a row of rotten luck, and it definitely is part of the reason for their underwhelming campaign so far. But I don't think it is the only problem they got. They still manage to play excellent matches (Arsenal), and even with the team they can field today they should be able to beat HSV.
Transfers: None of the transfers they did the last two years was completely convincing with the exception of Reus; and they did spend quite a bit, 50Mio alone this transfer window. Miky and Auba are capable players, but played inconsistent so far. Immobile looks alien. Sahin isn't his former self yet. Kagawa - well that remains to be seen. (so much about "buying titles" - it isn't all that easy, is it.
Tactics: After setting the trend with their fast pressing/direct play/counter attack style, they seem to have fallen behind tactically. After sticking to the same system for a few years with almost no changes, Klopp tries a new system now almost every game - a thing Pep brought to the league. Klopp switched from trendsetter to trend-follower.
Motivation: Hard to tell from the outside, but Klopp has a reputation of being a master motivator. Coaches that excel in that field often have a limited lifespan at any club.
Transfers: None of the transfers they did the last two years was completely convincing with the exception of Reus; and they did spend quite a bit, 50Mio alone this transfer window. Miky and Auba are capable players, but played inconsistent so far. Immobile looks alien. Sahin isn't his former self yet. Kagawa - well that remains to be seen. (so much about "buying titles" - it isn't all that easy, is it.
Tactics: After setting the trend with their fast pressing/direct play/counter attack style, they seem to have fallen behind tactically. After sticking to the same system for a few years with almost no changes, Klopp tries a new system now almost every game - a thing Pep brought to the league. Klopp switched from trendsetter to trend-follower.
Motivation: Hard to tell from the outside, but Klopp has a reputation of being a master motivator. Coaches that excel in that field often have a limited lifespan at any club.
The injuries are piling up in a hideous way and of course the poor results are connected to them as well as their shaky defense so far, but there's also a more general problem.
It's the curse of every truly strong team: Eventually, smaller clubs (and by now, that includes virtually everybody in the league expect Bayern) will try to minimize damage and hope for the best. Rather than playing their own game they will try to disrupt theirs. Bayern has been facing this for quite some time and even the poorest club can withstand an onslaught with high discipline, good coaching and rigorous defending.
Klopp proved that him and his assistants haves developed a fantastic, exciting system and are able to drill their players perfectly while maintaining a feelgood atmosphere. Now it's up to him to prove that he can also develop a Plan B and maintain dominance over teams they are heavy favorite against, because apart from Bayern and other CL big hitters, most teams won't try to play with them anymore.
It's the curse of every truly strong team: Eventually, smaller clubs (and by now, that includes virtually everybody in the league expect Bayern) will try to minimize damage and hope for the best. Rather than playing their own game they will try to disrupt theirs. Bayern has been facing this for quite some time and even the poorest club can withstand an onslaught with high discipline, good coaching and rigorous defending.
Klopp proved that him and his assistants haves developed a fantastic, exciting system and are able to drill their players perfectly while maintaining a feelgood atmosphere. Now it's up to him to prove that he can also develop a Plan B and maintain dominance over teams they are heavy favorite against, because apart from Bayern and other CL big hitters, most teams won't try to play with them anymore.
I´m sorry, but sometimes I wonder when people started really watching us. This is not some kind of breaking news. Smaller teams started to go largely on the defensive in 2011/2012 and by 2013/2014 you could count the number of teams which were willing to risk anything against us on one hand. Now take a look at our record of the last season vs. these teams. We won the cast majority of them and build our best start of the club´s history around these fixtures. We did not lose our fighting chance for the title in these games either, but against teams which usually suit our core system because the defensive was not stable enough.
What is the difference between the last and the current season? It is actually really simple. Last season we had the necessary tools to break deep lying defense lines and force them into action so we could play our transition style.
They are several ways to accomplish that:
1. You surprise them by creative and precise build up play from the back or the center of the field. We have four players for that. Three are injured and the fourth just came back from injury.
2. You use width to stretch the defense lines and thus create spaces for other players. Our three best wide players are currently out. Instead we play a player who was supposed to be a CF option and another who is stronger as FB.
3. You rely on the individual skill on the ball to bind opposing players, create space and send team mates in said space with through passes. We have three players who excell in that regard. Two are injured and the third joined us on the last day of the transfer window.
4. Set pieces. Three of our four primary set piece taker used to be injured. Now its all of them.
I have a question for all the people harping about Klopp´s lack of plan B. What kind of plan is that supposed to be, which is realistic with the current personell Klopp has at his disposal? He has proven already that we can make it work against defensive sides, but we need a certain amount of the right players for that.
Both Arsenal and Anderlecht tried to play football against them, which enabled Dortmund to play their traditional counter pressing game (especially vs Arsenal) which does not necessarily need creative players. Anderlecht also seemed ridiculously open at the back.
In the league it's the exact opposite, so it's really hard to compare the two.
Sokratis? Given their price tags Jojic (€2.2m), Durm (free) and Kirch (free) have been great buys too. Aubameyang and Sahin were supposed to be squad players. Sahin had a good season last year, Aubameyang has had ups and downs, it's not uncommon for Dortmund signings to have some difficulties during their first season - this season he's been one of Dortmund's better players - we'll have to wait and see how he performs once some of the midfielders come back from injury - because he was never supposed to be a creative outlet. It's way too early to judge this summer's signings especially given the current 'crisis' but for what it's worth Immobile and Ramos already scored a decent amount of goals between them, they are not the problem atm, it's the lack of penetration/creativity and individual defensive errors.
Klopp toyed around with different tactics in the past too... for example 433 against Bayern and in the CL (especially in 12/13), the christmas tree, 3atb against Schalke once and something 4141ish / a midfield diamond towards the end of last season. And despite all his qualities Pep did not invent the use of different formations for different oppositions... for example (from what I remember) Tuchel was constantly changing formations between games way before Pep arrived at Bayern. You also don't seem to have noticed that they pretty much exclusively played 4231 with Kagawa on the pitch this season.
I don't get it either tbh. Dortmund played a very dominant style of football as early as 11/12. Even over the past two seasons injuries and defensive issues were the far bigger problems (probably also some motivational/concentration issues that came from Bayern's huge leads quite early into the both seasons).
It's easy to "see" a lack of an offensive plan, when their whole creative section is injured or unfit.
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Does anyone have a realistic idea of what Dortmund's first XI would look like if everyone was fit, and how long/what injury the missing players have?
It's a massive shame what's happening to them but surely, like us, they've gotta start pointing the finger somewhere and doing something about it?
Can't have 10-12 injuries almost every week and not doing anything about it.
It's a massive shame what's happening to them but surely, like us, they've gotta start pointing the finger somewhere and doing something about it?
Can't have 10-12 injuries almost every week and not doing anything about it.
Probably
Weidenfeller-Piszczek,Sokratis/Subotic, Hummels,Schmelzer-Bender,Gündogan-Mkhitaryan,Kagawa,Reus-Immobile/Ramos 4231
or
Weidenfeller-Piszczek,Sokratis/Subotic,Hummels,Schmelzer-Kirch/Sahin-Gündogan,Mkhitaryan-Kagawa,Immobile/Ramos,Reus 4312
Afaik in theory all players (bar Kirch and maybe Sahin) should be fit enough to be part of the squad for the fixtures after the NT break, however given the length of their injuries it will probably take a lot more time for most of them to get back into their rythm.
LB is really hard to call, both Schmelzer and Durm made some really horrible mistakes this season, I think Schmelzer might be slightly ahead based on match performances but we might as well see Großkreutz playing there if enough midfielders are fit.
Weidenfeller-Piszczek,Sokratis/Subotic, Hummels,Schmelzer-Bender,Gündogan-Mkhitaryan,Kagawa,Reus-Immobile/Ramos 4231
or
Weidenfeller-Piszczek,Sokratis/Subotic,Hummels,Schmelzer-Kirch/Sahin-Gündogan,Mkhitaryan-Kagawa,Immobile/Ramos,Reus 4312
Afaik in theory all players (bar Kirch and maybe Sahin) should be fit enough to be part of the squad for the fixtures after the NT break, however given the length of their injuries it will probably take a lot more time for most of them to get back into their rythm.
LB is really hard to call, both Schmelzer and Durm made some really horrible mistakes this season, I think Schmelzer might be slightly ahead based on match performances but we might as well see Großkreutz playing there if enough midfielders are fit.
Oh and don't worry about teams just sitting deep and just defending for their lives against Bayern. Guardiola must be accustomed to it after his tenure at Barcelona where just about every team (even the good ones) did just that. He will know how to overcome it.
@Sphaero
For this matches against the smaller teams the set-pieces were very handy - that is were Reus etc. really go missing right now. Maybe we can tell that this is the plan B. The problems last season were the middle to top teams that in the seasons before were not a so big problem as they did not sit back but still tried to play - and started not to sit back but play very well defensively with either a good pressing and fairly good own offensive players last season. I do not take the end of last season - but the time before the winter break. You did not win any of this matches against the top 6 and you did not score. Against them plan A and plan B set-pieces did not work and they were able to use the defensive errors.
What I do not understand that Dortmund has put money in their hands - yes - but just players that work well for the original plan and not for an alternative plan. What you can do on the break is great - even with your bench - what I miss is players that can run a match down and conserve energy. For the plan A it is very important that all players are willing to go the extra step for their fellow players. The more "stars" or wannebe stars you have in a team the more difficult it gets.
For this matches against the smaller teams the set-pieces were very handy - that is were Reus etc. really go missing right now. Maybe we can tell that this is the plan B. The problems last season were the middle to top teams that in the seasons before were not a so big problem as they did not sit back but still tried to play - and started not to sit back but play very well defensively with either a good pressing and fairly good own offensive players last season. I do not take the end of last season - but the time before the winter break. You did not win any of this matches against the top 6 and you did not score. Against them plan A and plan B set-pieces did not work and they were able to use the defensive errors.
What I do not understand that Dortmund has put money in their hands - yes - but just players that work well for the original plan and not for an alternative plan. What you can do on the break is great - even with your bench - what I miss is players that can run a match down and conserve energy. For the plan A it is very important that all players are willing to go the extra step for their fellow players. The more "stars" or wannebe stars you have in a team the more difficult it gets.