Bundesliga, DFB Cup, and other Bundesliga business 2014/2015

I dont think that there is a fundamental tactical problem. Possession based approaches also struggle against teams, that park the bus. I remember fairly well that Barca was always criticised for not having a plan B against defensive teams. Its about quality and the level of performance and not so much about the system. I am not saying that tactics dont matter, but almost any team has problems to break down teams, that defend well. Destroying a game is easier than creating something.

At the moment Dortmund is just not playing well. They suffer from the classic post-worldcup syndrom, a difficult preseason, injuries and many players are just not at their best. Every team has rocky patches now and than.

Bayern can break down most of these teams, because of the individual quality of many of their players. Robben, Ribery, Götze, Thiago or Lewandowski are just on a different level while Dortmund has less attacking player with this individual quality.

I know there is always a lot of doom and gloom after bad results but I quite like Dortmund´s transfers. Immobile already showed that he is far more than a classic poacher. Ramos is a good and versatile option. Kagawa showed signs of promise. Ginter will turn out fantastic in the long run. Aubameyang improved a lot during the summer and is becoming a very useful player.
They are just not clicking as a team yet and are individually and collectively too inconstant. Of course thats disappointing, but in the end they´ll finish in the top3/4 because their individual quality is just much higher compared to the competition.
 
Blackwidow said:
@Sphaero

For this matches against the smaller teams the set-pieces were very handy - that is were Reus etc. really go missing right now. Maybe we can tell that this is the plan B. The problems last season were the middle to top teams that in the seasons before were not a so big problem as they did not sit back but still tried to play - and started not to sit back but play very well defensively with either a good pressing and fairly good own offensive players last season. I do not take the end of last season - but the time before the winter break. You did not win any of this matches against the top 6 and you did not score. Against them plan A and plan B set-pieces did not work and they were able to use the defensive errors.
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What matches are we talking about exactly? Leverkusen and Bayern?

What I do not understand that Dortmund has put money in their hands - yes - but just players that work well for the original plan and not for an alternative plan. What you can do on the break is great - even with your bench - what I miss is players that can run a match down and conserve energy. For the plan A it is very important that all players are willing to go the extra step for their fellow players. The more "stars" or wannebe stars you have in a team the more difficult it gets.
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Kagawa???? A BPD in Ginter and with Ramos a striker who is a team player and not just a poacher. What exactly do you expect?
They already played sort of played that way in 11/12. But I guess it's difficult to successfully maintain control with limited effort when you're always disrupted by injuries and individual errors.
 
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@do.ob

No. Before the winter break Dortmund had not scored a goal or more than 1 or 2 against any of the top 6 teams. I think Gladbach and Wolfsburg were in that mix, too.

Bayern is playing their yearly match against the Paulaner-Dream-Eleven right now (choosen from 31000 fans from all over the world). Pepe Reina - first touch of the ball - injured. Looks like it might take a little longer...
 
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Blackwidow said:
@do.ob

No. Before the winter break Dortmund had not scored a goal or more than 1 or 2 against any of the top 6 teams. I think Gladbach and Wolfsburg were in that mix, too.
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:confused:

And what do you make of that?
Schalke and Gladbach they truly outplayed, the former were beaten 3:1 the latter won 2:0, but only because of very poor finishing and a late penalty, not because of some tactical deficit - Dortmund created enough chances to decide the game during the first hour.
Bayern does not fall into said category anyway but the game against them was decent and they created a couple of good chances before Bayern decided the game.
That leaves you with the game against Wolfsburg (played between Arsenal and Bayern), where they were actually up 1 goal and the game vs Leverkusen deep into their crisis.
I think that's a bit thin to proof a systematical flaw in their approach.
 
@do.ob
Then just believe that it is only the injuries... :cool:

Oh - or Bayern buying away Lewa and Götze - only that even with them Bayern lead by 25 and 19 points...

Oh, or right now the World Championships because the Dortmund players played so much...
 
I just stated what I saw. It's very superficial to say that Dortmund lack a 'plan b' or that Klopp got found out when they are missing almost all of their creative and/or key players.

Not sure what Bayern has to do with all that, but whatever floats your boat..
 
do.ob said:
I just stated what I saw. It's very superficial to say that Dortmund lack a 'plan b' or that Klopp got found out when they are missing almost all of their creative and/or key players.

Not sure what Bayern has to do with all that, but whatever floats your boat..
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Do not tell me that you call Reus or Micky or Sahin creative players...
 
The whole plan B stuff is beyond stupid. It was stupid when Dortmund fans claimed the same nonsense about Bayern in 10/11 and 11/12, it was stupid when Guardiola's Barca side was accused of it as well. It's fecking difficult to break down a well working deep sitting defense, it really is, doesn't matter what tactical approach you take. It's not a lack of a plan or alternative plan to the original plan, which is the problem, it's so obvious the bad execution of the given plan. It looks a lot like there's a mental problem at Dortmund at the moment. Slightly less determination, lapses in concentration, especially in defense, along with a bit frustration because of the injuries and the already huge gap to Bayern and Klopp has his work cut out for the next few weeks.

I like the tactical part of the game and it is important, but in recent years, people focus too much on them. Players actually suck from time to time and then the best plan in the world looks completely wrong even though he isn't.
 
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Blackwidow said:
Do not tell me that you call Reus or Micky or Sahin creative players...
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don't really know how to respond to this. reus averaged the highest number of key passes in the entire league last season.. maybe make sure you have any idea of what you're talking about before you try to be condescending
 
do.ob said:
don't really know how to respond to this. reus averaged the highest number of key passes in the entire league last season.. maybe make sure you have any idea of what you're talking about before you try to be condescending
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Do you always argument with people like this... "make sure you have an idea..." - ... nice style...

He is doing the most corners and freekicks, too. Take away his assists of these situations and when Dortmund was counter attacking and the number of assists will not be very high that stays. Reus is wonderful for situations in which he can go with speed and Klopp can play his counterattacking style, he for sure is great with his freekicks and corners - but I remember especially the Dortmund fans "slaughtering" him in a lot matches in which apart from his contribution with set piece situations his game was "rubbish". He is a world class player even if he is not perfect.

Actually - Dortmund has created less goals out of open play than any other of the top clubs last season even if they had only 10 goals less than Bayern had. And that is telling. And Reus is a factor in that, too.

My opinion is - despite the injury situation - that whereas Dortmund has bought a lot players that wonderfully match to the first match play - the Superdupervollgasfussball - I do not see any new player that offers really big quality in other aspects.
 
Please... just watch the guy play... he's not a typical old school no10, but he offers a lot of penetration with seemingly simple yet effective passes. Reus supposedly only being able to run past defenders is an old clichee he has overcome long ago.

Fans picking on their star player when things aren't going well isn't exactly a novelty and I woulndn't judge a player based on how many people decide to make him their scapegoat.

If you fail to see any development in the squad maybe you should take a closer look. Kagawa is precisely the player that vastly improves a team's ability to outplay defensive opponents and/or the ability to retain possession in dangerous areas.
Ginter was also an attempt to improve a more patient game plan, at least in the long run.
 
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Sky is reporting that Schalke fired Keller. Tuchel coming in? Surely they won't go for another stupid 2nd or 3rd tier solution, when Tuchel is such an obvious pick. And Tuchel won't find a better job either the next few years.
 
Di Matteo it is :lol: . Contract until 2017, what the feck? That was a quick decision and it probably means that Tuchel is waiting for the RB Leipzig job.
 
Wasn't it said that Tuchel wants some time for himself/with his family before he starts working again? Maybe he wasn't available atm.
 
Schalke still would've been by far the best opportunity to prove himself / win silverware.
 
Good job for di Matteo, at the end of the day he has won Champions League and did a half decent job at West Brom as well. He will have another opportunity to prove himself at Schalke.
 
do.ob said:
Schalke still would've been by far the best opportunity to prove himself / win silverware.
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The only silverware Schalke could win is the DFB-Pokal, and even that's a stretch. There is no chance they'd win the league -let alone the CL- over Bayern or Dortmund at the moment or the next 2, 3 years.

The only reason any coach should go to Schalke is that he's forced at gunpoint to choose between them, Stuttgart and Hamburg.
IMO the chances to ruin your career at Schalke are higher than improving your reputation if your established in the Bundesliga.
How many established coaches walked away from Schalke recently with a better reputation than they had before?
 
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Kallech33 said:
The only silverware Schalke could win is the DFB-Pokal, and even that's a stretch. There is no chance they'd win the league -let alone the CL- over Bayern or Dortmund at the moment or the next 2, 3 years.

The only reason any coach should go to Schalke is that he's forced at gunpoint to choose between them, Stuttgart and Hamburg.
IMO the chances to ruin your career at Schalke are higher than improving your reputation if your established in the Bundesliga.
How many established coaches walked away from Schalke recently with a better reputation than they had before?
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Huub Stevens, Mike Büskens!
 
Most of those Coaches weren't that great to begin with and I'd say Rangnick and Slomka left the club with their reputations intact or even improved, one might even argue that Keller benefited greatly from his time at Schalke.


Schalke showed a lot of patience with Keller - a coach such as Tuchel should be able to form a functioning team over a similar timespan. And besides: if he fails at Leipzig or somewhere else that can be even more damaging for his career, because there he won't have the same excuses a Schalke coach has.
 
Really? His experience consists of some lower league management and around a year of Premier League coaching, which included getting fired twice. I don't think that'll earn him more trust than someone like for example Tuchel, who everyone in Germany respects because they've seen his work for some years.
 
Schalke would have taken Tuchel in a heartbeat, but he seem to have different plans. DiMateo is the attempt to bring in someone with international flair and charisma. Typical Schalke.
 
He won the CL an the FA Cup. That is a fact. And a huge one. Was just 41 or so too. That is very impressive. He will have big credit.
And he is a star. Good for the league. Im feeling for Keller. A nice man in a hard job. But he will find another one.
Di Matteo could be someone, who brings a good team to a new level. Schalke is ready for a CL quarterfinal and another Cup. The team and the club(financially) stand as good as ever.
 
Well there aren't many obvious choices if Tuchel isn't available.

anchan1989 said:
He won the CL an the FA Cup. That is a fact. And a huge one. Was just 41 or so too. That is very impressive. He will have big credit.
And he is a star. Good for the league. Im feeling for Keller. A nice man in a hard job. But he will find another one.
Di Matteo could be someone, who brings a good team to a new level. Schalke is ready for a CL quarterfinal and another Cup. The team and the club(financially) stand as good as ever.
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Except that everyone saw how he won it.
Your last sentence is debatable.
 
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OutlawGER said:
Huub Stevens, Mike Büskens!
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Stevens second spell was certainly not successful and his first spell there ended over a decade (12 years?) ago.

Mike Büskens, the same as Mirko Slomka, improved their reputations but theirs couldn't get any worse. They only were youth and co-coaches before they got the manager spot at Schalke.
They hardly fall in the "established" category like Tuchel.

do.ob said:
Most of those Coaches weren't that great to begin with and I'd say Rangnick and Slomka left the club with their reputations intact or even improved, one might even argue that Keller benefited greatly from his time at Schalke.


Schalke showed a lot of patience with Keller - a coach such as Tuchel should be able to form a functioning team over a similar timespan. And besides: if he fails at Leipzig or somewhere else that can be even more damaging for his career, because there he won't have the same excuses a Schalke coach has.
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Keller, Slomka, Büskens...as I said above. Non had any reputation to begin with. Apart from Keller who failed at Stuttgart. There were no high expectations on them (which would be the case for Tuchel).
Naturally they improved their reputations. They either had non or it was very bad to begin with.

Rangnick I agree with. He's is the only established coach I'd say improved his reputation in his first spell at Schalke which was a decade ago. In his very short second spell he didn't damage his reputation but I wouldn't say that it improved either because he already had a pretty good one after his spell with Hoffenheim.
 
I dont think that Tuchel cares too much about his reputation. He is self confident enough to believe in his own work. I think He already has a better offer from redbull. He´ll be able to build his own team right from the start. No interference, little restrictions and he knows that he´ll be able to compete for the CL qualification in few years.
 
PedroMendez said:
I dont think that Tuchel cares too much about his reputation. He is self confident enough to believe in his own work. I think He already has a better offer from redbull. He´ll be able to build his own team right from the start. No interference, little restrictions and he knows that he´ll be able to compete for the CL qualification in few years.
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Yeah agree with this. Don't think Schalke is any worse to manage than Leverkusen or Wolfsburg, let alone Hamburg and then all the decent options in Germany are gone, because Bayern and Dortmund won't hire him next year. Pretty sure he's already RB bound, the question is, what happens if they feck up promotion and stay in the 2. Bundesliga. They'll definitely fire Zorniger then, but would Tuchel still take the job in that case?
 
Well if he's willing to spend a couple of years building up something there one year more or less probably won't matter too much.
 
Kallech33 said:
I'm not surprised that Tuchel turned them down -if Schalke even wanted him. You have to have suicidal tendencies to go to Schalke as a coach; Or at least be a masochist and Tuchel strikes me as neither.
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This is a bit nonsense. For a Bundesliga coach, there are a total of 18 possible employers and a total of 50+ competitors for each of these jobs. If a Buli team makes you an offer, you consider it. If it comes from a club with the history and the potential of Schalke, you consider it very seriously. It is easy for us armchair heroes to say "ah, i'd never go to that madhouse if i was him".
Most people with the skill and the ambition to become a Buli coach are not satisfied with gardening, driving the wifey to the hairdressers, or sitting together with some has-beens in front of a Sport1 camera, or whatever it is unemplyed football coaches do.
What job would Tuchel be waiting for? Barca, Bayern, PSG, United? :D
 
I assume Tuchel is simply enjoying his holiday and will be back in six months when Schalke and HSV will need new managers again.
 
do.ob said:
Well there aren't many obvious choices if Tuchel isn't available.



Except that everyone saw how he won it.
Your last sentence is debatable.
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It is. But Schalke has 3 CL group stages in a row now. That is big money. And the team is really good, when you look at it. Injuries and other things(trouble in the club) hold them back a bit the last years.
The CL quarters were near last year. And the young talents only get better.
I think its easy to overlook Schalke a bit. They are a big name in Germany, have one of the best stadiums in the world. A great youth setup. And strong revenue in the last years.
The team grew stronger in that span, too.
As a package they are in the 2nd tier in europe. And of the best there. They will get better the next years. And who knows what happens.
Great potenzial, so.
 
strongwalker said:
This is a bit nonsense. For a Bundesliga coach, there are a total of 18 possible employers and a total of 50+ competitors for each of these jobs. If a Buli team makes you an offer, you consider it. If it comes from a club with the history and the potential of Schalke, you consider it very seriously. It is easy for us armchair heroes to say "ah, i'd never go to that madhouse if i was him".
Most people with the skill and the ambition to become a Buli coach are not satisfied with gardening, driving the wifey to the hairdressers, or sitting together with some has-beens in front of a Sport1 camera, or whatever it is unemplyed football coaches do.
What job would Tuchel be waiting for? Barca, Bayern, PSG, United? :D
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United? :lol:
 
Balu said:
Yeah agree with this. Don't think Schalke is any worse to manage than Leverkusen or Wolfsburg, let alone Hamburg and then all the decent options in Germany are gone, because Bayern and Dortmund won't hire him next year. Pretty sure he's already RB bound, the question is, what happens if they feck up promotion and stay in the 2. Bundesliga. They'll definitely fire Zorniger then, but would Tuchel still take the job in that case?
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I think they are a lot more stable with much less drama involved.
Possibly because neither club has any fans who put pressure on them and expect them to win anything.
The press is also not as interested in smashing their coaches as they do with every Schalke coach.
Maybe again because no one gives a shit about the other two and it won't sell as good as a Schalke-drama.

If Leverkusen play great football the press writes how great everything is and that it's almost a fairy tale.
Despite the fact that Bayer finished 4th, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 4th (or 3.6th on average) in the last 5 seasons and thus being the 3rd best/most consistent team behind Bayern and Dortmund.
If Schalke play great football the press asks how long will it last? Because obviously it's only a question of time until they start to play shit again and it's never too early to speculate when the coach will be sacked.


strongwalker said:
This is a bit nonsense. For a Bundesliga coach, there are a total of 18 possible employers and a total of 50+ competitors for each of these jobs. If a Buli team makes you an offer, you consider it. If it comes from a club with the history and the potential of Schalke, you consider it very seriously. It is easy for us armchair heroes to say "ah, i'd never go to that madhouse if i was him".
Most people with the skill and the ambition to become a Buli coach are not satisfied with gardening, driving the wifey to the hairdressers, or sitting together with some has-beens in front of a Sport1 camera, or whatever it is unemplyed football coaches do.
What job would Tuchel be waiting for? Barca, Bayern, PSG, United? :D
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I think it would have been better for him to go to Leverkusen (before Schmidt arrived), offer his services to Wolfsburg (trying to get them to fire Hecking) or the obvious choice of RB Leipzig even if all of them are seen as plastic clubs.
EDIT: I think it's also obvious that I exaggerated in my post for the sake of bashing Schalke.
schalke1.jpg
schalke5.jpg

schalke.jpg

The Mitcher said:
United? :lol:
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He was sarcastic obviously. ;)
 
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Kallech33 said:
I think they are a lot more stable with much less drama involved.
Possibly because neither club has any fans who put pressure on them and expect them to win anything.
The press is also not as interested in smashing their coaches as they do with every Schalke coach.
Maybe again because no one gives a shit about the other two and it won't sell as good as a Schalke-drama.

If Leverkusen play great football the press writes how great everything is and that it's almost a fairy tale.
Despite the fact that Bayer finished 4th, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 4th (or 3.6th on average) in the last 5 seasons and thus being the 3rd best/most consistent team behind Bayern and Dortmund.
If Schalke play great football the press asks how long will it last? Because obviously it's only a question of time until they start to play shit again and it's never too early to speculate when the coach will be sacked.




I think it would have been better for him to go to Leverkusen (before Schmidt arrived), offer his services to Wolfsburg (trying to get them to fire Hecking) or the obvious choice of RB Leipzig even if all of them are seen as plastic clubs.
EDIT: I think it's also obvious that I exaggerated in my post for the sake of bashing Schalke.
schalke1.jpg
schalke5.jpg


He was sarcastic obviously. ;)
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:p
 
Balu said:
Yeah agree with this. Don't think Schalke is any worse to manage than Leverkusen or Wolfsburg, let alone Hamburg and then all the decent options in Germany are gone, because Bayern and Dortmund won't hire him next year. Pretty sure he's already RB bound, the question is, what happens if they feck up promotion and stay in the 2. Bundesliga. They'll definitely fire Zorniger then, but would Tuchel still take the job in that case?
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Hard to say, its possible, but I dont think that they´ll fail. Worst case scenario is that they are 4-5 during the winter and buy another 2-3 stars who ensure that they´ll get promoted.
RB is Tuchel´s only realistic option in germany and it would be a perfect fit for both sides. Bayern and Dortmund wont hire him next season. Leverkusen and Schalke have new manager and Wolfsburg just bought a new, young team for Hecking.
I just looked up Schalke´s transfer business with Held as manager. I somehow always thought that he is doing a good job, but he has a shambolic record. Their squad is still overpayed (= they desperatly need the CL), he bought a shitload of injury prone players or players who just flopped. Schalke would be seriously fecked without their own youth. I can believe that nobody is questioning him.

boateng, Sam, Aogo = overpaid, injury prone with questionable character
Obasi, Höger, Pukki, Marica, Hildebrand, Szalai, Raffael, Bastos, Affelay, Barnetta, Clemens, Santana, Kirchhoff, Fuchs = flops

Choupo-Moting and Neustädter seem to be the only decent transfers
 
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