Bundesliga, DFB Cup, and other Bundesliga business 2014/2015

Well that's bad news for us :lol: The goalkeeper position is Benfica's major problem in their team. Let's see if it doesn't happen the same as Koln's Yannick Gerhardt. They had things wrapped up but the player changed his mind in the last minute.

:lol::lol: Well at least they no longer have Andre Gomes :)
 
What has Labbadia to do with Benfica, Mainz or Karius? And why would anyone ask his opinion, he's an idiot?
He's not that far off in this this case, Neuer and Karius have a somewhat similar style of goalkeeping. Obviously, Karius isn't as good, but he is still an excellent keeper and very important to us.

He was our third choice goalkeeper last season, but got into the team due to injuries about ten games in and never looked back. Our defensive record improved a lot once he became our starter. Karius is a great shot stopper and very good one on one, but the biggest improvement compared to our other goalkeepers is his distribution. He's able to find a team mate with his kicks more often than not and he's also helped us a lot with keeping possession and building from the back. His weakness is coming out for crosses, he sometimes mistimes it or prefers to stay on the line when he should have come out to catch the ball instead.

@Sly I had not heard of Benfica's interest before and I'm not sure there is anything in it. Karius has been linked to a number of clubs in Germany, most recently RB Leipzig. His contract is running out in the summer and I can see a big club picking him up, but I'm still hoping Heidel can convince him to stay and extend his contract.

His nickname is Chuck Loris, by the way. I think that says it all. :)
 
What has Labbadia to do with Benfica, Mainz or Karius? And why would anyone ask his opinion, he's an idiot?

Heh no idea. Must have been a random pick for an interview or the only one available
 
@Sly I had not heard of Benfica's interest before and I'm not sure there is anything in it. Karius has been linked to a number of clubs in Germany, most recently RB Leipzig. His contract is running out in the summer and I can see a big club picking him up, but I'm still hoping Heidel can convince him to stay and extend his contract.

His name was mentioned in the Benfica summer rumours but he said he was waiting till this january before making a decision about his next career move. He looks like a good player. Hope he stays in Mainz or moves somewhere else but Benfica. Thanks for the info gents.
 
His name was mentioned in the Benfica summer rumours but he said he was waiting till this january before making a decision about his next career move. He looks like a good player. Hope he stays in Mainz or moves somewhere else but Benfica. Thanks for the info gents.

I am pretty surprised that nobody mentioned that he played 3 years for City (youth and reserves).
 
Well, it isn't any better to go just as extreme into the other direction. Dortmund is clearly still a better team than Wolfsburg, Gladbach, Schalke, Leverkusen. They performed way below their potential in the league for 10 games, that's it. They finished 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd in the past four years, won the cup two years ago and since then only lost to Bayern in the competition and are easily the 2nd best German team in Europe, constantly showing that they're good enough to beat anyone in the world. You came up with an incredible selective way to belittle Dortmund's quality.

I got laughed at in the office for making the bold claim that Dortmund would still qualify for the CL next season. I stand by my point, though. They're a ton better than they showed so far and eventually, they will turn this around and romp over most other teams again.
 
I got laughed at in the office for making the bold claim that Dortmund would still qualify for the CL next season. I stand by my point, though. They're a ton better than they showed so far and eventually, they will turn this around and romp over most other teams again.

In a German office? If so you should laugh about them. A few crazy games and people forget about Dortmunds team and his potential?
Even as a Bayernguy this is annoying. Some people always want to see the bad sides on things which are bigger then them.
They are 7! points behind 4th. And that team(Hoffenheim) plays my Bayern this weekend. Bayer also not in such a great form. Dortmund could be 4 points behind 4th after this week.
They will make top 4.
 
Piszczek was sent back to Dortmund and won't play in our friendly match because of spine overstrain or something. Wondering if it's serious or not.
 
I got laughed at in the office for making the bold claim that Dortmund would still qualify for the CL next season. I stand by my point, though. They're a ton better than they showed so far and eventually, they will turn this around and romp over most other teams again.

They are 7 points behind 6th place and 9 points behind 4th. In 2 weeks, Hannover will meet Hoffenheim and Gladbach will meet Wolfsburg, taking points from each other. I'd laugh at anyone suggesting BVB *won't* make a CL spot.
 
Any news on Neuer by the way? Will he be fit to start on Saturday? Maybe we should sign Valdes so that we at least have one decent back-up keeper available when Neuer misses a game. It's totally ridiculous to have all 3 goalkeepers injured at the same time.
 
I'll continue here, because it fits better in this thread. I usually hate to split up posts and answer to parts of it separately, but you bring so many different points into the discussion, that it's necessary.

It seems like you base your whole argument around 'how to close the financial gap between Bayern and the rest of the league', which clearly is completely impossible to achieve with rules. It's either possible through outside investment, which simply sucks and has more drawbacks than it actually solves anything. No one wants that in Germany, fair enough if you like it, the majority of Bundesliga fans hate it. Or it's possible through allowing a club like Dortmund to grow naturally over 5-10 years and reward success on the pitch, which is still happening at the moment and losing players is part of that development and can change at one point. The same isn't true for the Premier League anymore. Even when the greatest manager of all time retired and United became a 'normal' club again (like all the other top clubs that collaps at least once every 10 years and give other clubs the chance to catch up), none of the natural grown clubs could win the title. Instead you have artificially created teams at the top. And if not for FFP (which you clearly dislike), there would have been a good chance that those 2 clubs would simply walk away with the league for years, just like PSG would be set to dominate the French league for years. I wouldn't want that for the league, just to have a shortterm fix. Now to address your post:

I never said they'd get more than every club below them. But sustained success means more fans which means more sponsors. In Germany this is true more than any other Country as ticket prices are so low, Commercial revenues have to pick up some of the slack. Also Germany is a Country of huge industry which means that all successful clubs have a great pool of potential Commercial partners (we've seen Dortmund's Commercial revenue rocket up after their recent success, for example).
Dortmund is a huge club with a huge history and based in a heavily populated football crazy region. They grew quickly because there was so much unfulfilled potential, the same would be true for Hamburg. Let's not forget that Dortmund were at almost the same financial level as Bayern in the late 90's with comparable revenues. Small clubs like Mainz, Augsburg don't have any of that and are clearly limited in their development, just like Bremen was despite constantly performing incredibly well.

The natural order has created a monopoly, which is not good for the game. In the business world there a regulations in place to stop monopolies growing too big and basically hoovering up their closest competition, which is particularly prevalent in Germany right now.
That's just silly. There are much more dominant companies in their business field than Bayern is in German football, let alone in European football, which would be relevant when you bring regulations to stop monopolies into the discussion. It's definitely not comparable at all.

The Premier League has been a great League these past 10 years (evidenced by how much we have sold our TV rights for) since the introduction of outside investment. The only teams to have won the League since it's inception without outside investment were Arsenal and Man Utd. With Arsenal's stadium investment and our boom in Commercial revenue these past 10 years United would have won the title 10 times in a row (which could well happen in Germany over the next 7 years), which for me would make the League crap.

I'm curious - do you believe that Bayern winning the title by Xmas, whilst averaging a 2.2 goal margin over your competition these last few seasons has been entertaining? Maybe for 3-4 years it will be, but in another 2-3 years I bet you'll have a different tune.
That has way more to do with marketing and success in Europe than with what happened within the league. For large parts of those past 10 years, the Bundesliga was more competitive than the Premier League, didn't make it a better league though, let alone made it possible to sell the league all over the world. The rest of it is just hypothetical nonsense that isn't likely to be true as evidenced by all the great football teams in the past which were called unstoppable for years to come, but never were. Money simply doesn't guarantee titles the way you're suggesting and the Premier League at the moment is the perfect example for constant underachievement while outspending the rest of Europe by a significant margin.

I like the Bundesliga. I love the fact that the ticket prices are low and I love the fans and the atmosphere, as well as their sensible approach to safe standing and the closeness between the club and its fans.
Fair enough. That's not what I was talking about though, I was only refering to things happening on the pitch. The way football is played in the league; the importance of youth development and trusting young talents as key players in the teams; the strong connection between the league and the nationalteam, which is a huge reason why Germany became so successful again; the tactical development with a huge influence on football all over the world.

The Premier League is clearly the most competitive, though. This to me makes it the most fascinating to watch. At the start of the season five clubs were less than 12/1 to win the League. That to me makes a great League and one which I believe others should be replicated. Obviously the PL has flaws: it's losing touch with the common man due to ludicrous ticket prices; the owners are out of touch with the fans; fans don't generally hold a stake in the club etcetc. The amount of money generated overseas by the Premier League suggests that it is giving Football fans exactly what they want, more than any other Country.
I'm not sure that's true, definitely not 'clearly'. La Liga had 3 different winners in the past 3 years for example, a much closer title fight last season and has more different teams with the chance to qualify for Europe and as evidenced by results in Europe a lot more strength in general. The amount of money generated overseas only proves that the marketing department of the Premier League works way better than the one of all the other leagues. Along with the historic advantage and probably the all over the world understood language, it became a product that attracts more interest no matter how high the quality is. The notion that the most sold product is always the best is laughable naive. It's a bit similar with the betting odds, which don't reflect the actual chance of winning the title at all. The odds are influenced by what people believe to be true (and therefore bet on it), they aren't a reflection of the reality.

Your focus seems to be on Champions League revenue. Which again is your method of keeping Bayern above everyone else. If you split the CL revenue, you take away a huge chunk of Dortmund/Shalke's etc revenue, whilst only taking away a small % of Bayern's revenue. For Bayern this revenue is merely a cherry on the top of a huge cake; not something that the club relies on.
You completely missed the point I was making here. I'm arguing for an overall more competitive league (or better overall more competitive leagues all over Europe), because the gap between the 2nd tier teams and the smaller teams is also rapidly growing. You're just blinded by solely looking at Bayern, which makes no sense because we're at the moment playing at a level that's simply not possible to keep up longterm, no matter what the investment is, and once our cycle ends, the gap between us and the next title challenger will be significantly smaller again. There are 4 English clubs, that spent more money than us in the past 5 years and none of them would have challenged us for the league title in the last two seasons. Do you really think Bayern fans would be worried about competing with City for a league title at the moment, just because they spend 50% more in wages and probably spent at least twice as much for transfers in the past 5 years?

Maybe you'd be happy splitting your Commercial revenue with the other clubs?
I would yes, I wouldn't mind if all European top clubs had to share a large part of what they earn. I actually wouldn't mind if the top leagues were forced to support smaller leagues financially, so that clubs like Ajax, Porto or Anderlecht have a chance to compete at the top. I hate that few top leagues became more or less superleagues and completely dominate European football. Would you want the Premier League to share their money with other leagues? Or would you enjoy if the Premier League dominates in Europe as much as Bayern does in the Bundesliga because of their financial advantage?
 
I'll continue here, because it fits better in this thread. I usually hate to split up posts and answer to parts of it separately, but you bring so many different points into the discussion, that it's necessary.

It seems like you base your whole argument around 'how to close the financial gap between Bayern and the rest of the league', which clearly is completely impossible to achieve with rules. It's either possible through outside investment, which simply sucks and has more drawbacks than it actually solves anything. No one wants that in Germany, fair enough if you like it, the majority of Bundesliga fans hate it...

I think Bayern vs the rest of the League is the biggest gap that needs plugging, everyone else is quite competitive. The disparity between them and everyone else is staggering. Bayern can offer triple the salary vs your nearest rival, that is anti-competitive by nature. The gap between first and second over the last 2 seasons was 44 points. The gap between 2nd and 10th for example was only 51 points and the gap between 11th and 20th was 38 points.

Dortmund is a huge club with a huge history and based in a heavily populated football crazy region. They grew quickly because there was so much unfulfilled potential, the same would be true for Hamburg. Let's not forget that Dortmund were at almost the same financial level as Bayern in the late 90's with comparable revenues. Small clubs like Mainz, Augsburg don't have any of that and are clearly limited in their development, just like Bremen was despite constantly performing incredibly well.

Absolutely and obviously clubs from bigger cities will naturally have an advantage. However can you imagine if a club like Mainz had the kind of revolution Klopp has brought to Dortmund? They would obviously get more fans and more sponsors because of it, albeit not to the same degree straight away. Hell I've even seen people in Birmingham wearing Dortmund merchandise, which I'd never seen the previous 15-20 years, because they have captured peoples' imagination. That directly turns into money in their coffers.

That's just silly. There are much more dominant companies in their business field than Bayern is in German football, let alone in European football, which would be relevant when you bring regulations to stop monopolies into the discussion. It's definitely not comparable at all.

Not many companies can offer triple the salary across the board than their nearest domestic competitor; can you think of any?

That has way more to do with marketing and success in Europe than with what happened within the league. For large parts of those past 10 years, the Bundesliga was more competitive than the Premier League, didn't make it a better league though, let alone made it possible to sell the league all over the world...

It isn't just marketing, it's also having a great product to sell. You say it's hypothetical nonsense, whereas I say it's common sense (see City and Chelsea; money = titles). If United bought Arsenal's best player's every year (as we naturally would), we would win the League every year, just like Bayern are/will. Some money doesn't guarantee titles, but the difference between United and Arsenal this last decade is huge, just like Dortmund and Bayern the last few years.

There is a close correlation between points earned and wage bill for an obvious reason. Our salary would have been 50% higher, ergo common sense would suggest a huge disparity in quality and titles.

Fair enough. That's not what I was talking about though, I was only refering to things happening on the pitch. The way football is played in the league; the importance of youth development and trusting young talents as key players in the teams; the strong connection between the league and the nationalteam, which is a huge reason why Germany became so successful again; the tactical development with a huge influence on football all over the world.

You could comfortably add the youth development, trusting youth, coaching (and lack of coaching restrictions) and the connection between the teams and the National team to the list of reasons why I like German Football. It wasn't an exhaustive list!

I'm not sure that's true, definitely not 'clearly'. La Liga had 3 different winners in the past 3 years for example, a much closer title fight last season and has more different teams with the chance to qualify for Europe and as evidenced by results in Europe a lot more strength in general. The amount of money generated overseas only proves that the marketing department of the Premier League works way better than the one of all the other leagues. Along with the historic advantage and probably the all over the world understood language, it became a product that attracts more interest no matter how high the quality is. The notion that the most sold product is always the best is laughable naive. It's a bit similar with the betting odds, which don't reflect the actual chance of winning the title at all. The odds are influenced by what people believe to be true (and therefore bet on it), they aren't a reflection of the reality.

La Liga last season was an anomaly, as shown by half of Atletico's player's being poached this Summer. It was a bit like Dortmund a few years ago; everything came together at once: a group of great player's maturing together, a few great signings, a great young coach inspiring them and an almost super natural self belief. Liverpool were similar last season, but fell just short. The reason the Spanish League does so poorly in respect of TV rights is obvious (Madrid/Barcelona). I'm not saying conclusively that most sold = best, but I'm saying a competitive League would naturally generate more income that an uncompetitive one. I read somewhere that Aguero's last minute equaliser :( to win the title on goal difference was worth well into the tens of millions alone, for instance.

You completely missed the point I was making here. I'm arguing for an overall more competitive league (or better overall more competitive leagues all over Europe), because the gap between the 2nd tier teams and the smaller teams is also rapidly growing. You're just blinded by solely looking at Bayern, which makes no sense because we're at the moment playing at a level that's simply not possible to keep up longterm, no matter what the investment is, and once our cycle ends, the gap between us and the next title challenger will be significantly smaller again. There are 4 English clubs, that spent more money than us in the past 5 years and none of them would have challenged us for the league title in the last two seasons. Do you really think Bayern fans would be worried about competing with City for a league title at the moment, just because they spend 50% more in wages and probably spent at least twice as much for transfers in the past 5 years?

The biggest problem in the Bundesliga is the gap between first and second, as I mentioned above. Distributing the Champions League income would only exacerbate this problem, as you'd be taking away maybe 5% of Bayern's income, but maybe 15-20% of Dortmund/Shalke's in order to redistribute to others. You'd be closing the gap between second and 20th, but increasing an already insane gap between 1st and 2nd.

I would yes, I wouldn't mind if all European top clubs had to share a large part of what they earn. I actually wouldn't mind if the top leagues were forced to support smaller leagues financially, so that clubs like Ajax, Porto or Anderlecht have a chance to compete at the top. I hate that few top leagues became more or less superleagues and completely dominate European football. Would you want the Premier League to share their money with other leagues? Or would you enjoy if the Premier League dominates in Europe as much as Bayern does in the Bundesliga...

I agree with you that splitting a decent portion of revenue (Commercial, TV, Match day) is truly the most equitable way of keeping fairness in Football. However I think we both know that this will never happen as all the top clubs would not allow others to take their money.

Therefore we have to look at more realistic options to increase competition. Now for all the negative things about Chelsea/City, they've made the Premier League far, far more exciting. I'd never expect a team in the near future to win our League by 15-25 points for even one season, let alone a few consecutively. If PSG's owners had taken over Stuttgart and Monaco's had taken over Hamburg I think the Bundesliga would be great to watch. Is this a long term solution? Actually it kind of is. Chelsea now break even as one of the top teams in Europe after 10 years of being subsidised by their owner. City are also on course to break even, although many of their sponsorships are related to the owner (which doesn't really count); however they are investing in the stadium and youth system to keep them in good stead for decades to come. A Premier League where Arsenal, Liverpool, City, United & Chelsea are all sustainable, top teams is maybe 5 years away; this 5 horse race is brilliant in comparison to the one, two or three horse race that would have happened naturally over the last 10 years and next 10 years.

It isn't the best way to promote competition, I agree. But is it the most realistic? In the medium term with the current hierarchy of Football I think so. Bizarrely enough I think we actually have the same belief regarding this issue. I'm just recognising that the ideal scenario isn't going to happen anytime soon.
 
However can you imagine if a club like Mainz had the kind of revolution Klopp has brought to Dortmund?
They had Klopp for 8 years :lol:. More detailed answer to follow (within the next 2 days).
 
@Balu

Regarding Chelsea and City being artificially created clubs. It has always been this way elsewhere as well. Berlusconi did it with Milan in 80s. No one sneers at that Milan team now, it is wildly lauded as one of the best ever even, no asterix about how it was acquired and all. Moratti has been doing it with Inter for some time as well. I am sure if you go back in history, you will find plenty of examples of big money men pumping some into a club to assemble a team. Chelsea in any case are moving towards becoming a self sufficient club. Remains to be seen if City/PSG will do the same.

I think it is disingenuous to think that if a billionaire buys a club, he is not going to spend any money for rapid improvement. That will always happen. The way to stop it is by introducing wages and transfer caps, which would be applicable to all the clubs.
 
@Balu

Regarding Chelsea and City being artificially created clubs. It has always been this way elsewhere as well. Berlusconi did it with Milan in 80s. No one sneers at that Milan team now, it is wildly lauded as one of the best ever even, no asterix about how it was acquired and all. Moratti has been doing it with Inter for some time as well. I am sure if you go back in history, you will find plenty of examples of big money men pumping some into a club to assemble a team. Chelsea in any case are moving towards becoming a self sufficient club. Remains to be seen if City/PSG will do the same.

I think it is disingenuous to think that if a billionaire buys a club, he is not going to spend any money for rapid improvement. That will always happen. The way to stop it is by introducing wages and transfer caps, which would be applicable to all the clubs.
I know that. I often mentioned it before, when others criticised Chelsea and City. I don't even mind that clubs like that exists, it's always been that way in football, and I didn't mean 'artificial' as criticism. It was just a word to describe the difference between clubs like Dortmund and City. What I disagree with is that investment through rich owners in very few selected clubs is the best way to a healthy and balanced league and that's more or less what finneh suggested above.
 
I know that. I often mentioned it before, when others criticised Chelsea and City. I don't even mind that clubs like that exists, it's always been that way in football, and I didn't mean 'artificial' as criticism. It was just a word to describe the difference between clubs like Dortmund and City. What I disagree with is that investment through rich owners in very few selected clubs is the best way to a healthy and balanced league and that's more or less what finneh suggested above.

Problem is that the standard of PL teams did improve due to Roman pumping money into Chelsea. So many people cite it as a positive in that regard and it is hard to argue against. In general though, I agree that it is better to see a club like Spurs gain top 4 than City spend their way to it.
 
Problem is that the standard of PL teams did improve due to Roman pumping money into Chelsea. So many people cite it as a positive in that regard and it is hard to argue against. In general though, I agree that it is better to see a club like Spurs gain top 4 than City spend their way to it.
Oh yeah no doubt about that. Mourinho and Roman pushed the top teams in the league to a higher level and it was certainly the starting point for the dominance of English clubs in the CL between 2006 and 2010. The question is if it's worth the sideeffects or not and how the league would have developed without it.
 
It isn't just marketing, it's also having a great product to sell. You say it's hypothetical nonsense, whereas I say it's common sense (see City and Chelsea; money = titles). If United bought Arsenal's best player's every year (as we naturally would), we would win the League every year, just like Bayern are/will. Some money doesn't guarantee titles, but the difference between United and Arsenal this last decade is huge, just like Dortmund and Bayern the last few years.

There is a close correlation between points earned and wage bill for an obvious reason. Our salary would have been 50% higher, ergo common sense would suggest a huge disparity in quality and titles.
Of course more money makes it more likely to win titles, no one is denying that. You're massively exaggerating the level of dominance possible though. All the European top teams have a bad season/spell at least once every decade. The only exception was United under Ferguson, yet you take the fact that United finished above Arsenal every season for a decade as the norm, when it's clearly the exception. Real, Barca finished behind Villareal, Atletico, Valencia, Deportivo at one point since the turn of the century. Milan often had bad league seasons despite having the biggest budget in the league. Bayern finished behind several teams. It's the nature of the game, the dominance you expect simply never happened and there are good reasons for it.

I think Bayern vs the rest of the League is the biggest gap that needs plugging, everyone else is quite competitive. The disparity between them and everyone else is staggering. Bayern can offer triple the salary vs your nearest rival, that is anti-competitive by nature. The gap between first and second over the last 2 seasons was 44 points. The gap between 2nd and 10th for example was only 51 points and the gap between 11th and 20th was 38 points.
You're really overrating the points gap. Dortmund finished 8 points ahead of Bayern in 11/12 and 25 points behind Bayern in 12/13. In both cases the team that finished second actually played in the CL final and had a good case for being one of the strongest teams in the world. The gap doesn't reflect the actual strength of the teams, let alone is a good prediction for the future.

The biggest problem in the Bundesliga is the gap between first and second, as I mentioned above. Distributing the Champions League income would only exacerbate this problem, as you'd be taking away maybe 5% of Bayern's income, but maybe 15-20% of Dortmund/Shalke's in order to redistribute to others. You'd be closing the gap between second and 20th, but increasing an already insane gap between 1st and 2nd.
Again, that's true, but the gap between 1st and 2nd won't get fixed unless the Bundesliga establishes itself as a top league, increases its popularity worldwide and clubs like Dortmund increase their commercial revenue and fully exploit the hype around them at the moment. I personally think it was shocking from Dortmund that they didn't go on a pre-season tour in Asia or the US. Even Leverkusen played friendlies in Korea because of a sponsorship deal. Everything you suggest is a drop in the ocean for the gap between Bayern and the rest and has severe sideeffects for other clubs. That can't be the way to solve the problem.

In general the competitive part of the league is overrated when it comes to selling the product. Being successful in Europe and having star players is what's important. No one cared about the Bundesliga when it was highly competitive but shit. Once Bayern got to the CL final and the nationalteam started to play entertaining and successful football, the hype started. Dortmund was the first team to use the hype to their advantage, built a fantastic team and pushed the league forward the same way Chelsea did in the Premier League. They set an incredible points record in the league, which pushed Bayern to strengthen more and more and the interest in German football doesn't slow down at the moment. 2nd tier clubs like Gladbach and Wolfsburg sign better players than they ever did before for example. Judging the league on the gap between 1st and 2nd is just weird at a time when the 1st placed team can beat teams like Arsenal, City, Juve or Roma in CL away games with ease. That's not the norm, it won't stay that way, it's just the peak of a cycle and once that cycle goes down a bit, the gap will naturally get smaller again. You would have had a point if Bayern from 04-09 dominated the league with insane point records while being shit in Europe. Look at Juve for example, finishing on more than 100 points in the league while being useless in Europe, that's a worrying development and a huge sign for a lack of quality in the league throughout. A close title race between Roma and Juve wouldn't help selling the product if the overall quality is far away from the top leagues.

Not many companies can offer triple the salary across the board than their nearest domestic competitor; can you think of any?
It's not a domestic business though. It's clearly European, or even worldwide and if Bayern weren't able to compete with the salaries in England, Spain, Italy and France, it would be a way bigger problem for the Bundesliga than what we have now. There aren't any regulations within the EU that would prevent a German company from being competitive in terms of wages against companies from other European states, that would be completely stupid. Triple the salary isn't true anyway.

If PSG's owners had taken over Stuttgart and Monaco's had taken over Hamburg I think the Bundesliga would be great to watch. Is this a long term solution?
First of all, the Bundesliga is great to watch. So many exciting things happening and the great thing about European football leagues that the competition is about much more than just the title fight. It's something I hate about US sports for example, bad teams deliberately tanking to get better lottery picks in the draft is just insane, while in domestic football in Europe you have brilliant relegation fights, often involving teams that actually play great football, but are unlucky for some reason, great battles for CL and EL spots and the Cup competition which countless upsets from smaller teams every year.

Second of all, the regulations in the league won't allow investors to take over clubs, so it's a moot point. I don't think Stuttgart could attract a rich owner anyway, bored billionaires would pick clubs from big cities which make for a more interesting product. Hamburg, Hertha, Cologne and similar to City as United's local rival, 1860 as Bayern's could probably attract a potential buyer. It's something I also hate about rich investors. It screws small clubs even more, because it turns the chance to win something from unlikely to impossible while they also have no chance to win the lottery.

And at last, let's just assume Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim spent 300m more than they already did and had a realistic chance to beat Bayern to the title, but would at the same time completely destroy any longterm chance for Dortmund and Schalke to establish themselves as top clubs in Europe. Would that make the product Bundesliga more interesting? I don't think so, it would turn the Bundesliga into a weaker version of the Premier League and take everything that's unique about the league away. That's not the way to go. Like I said before, it's great that the European leagues offer something different, in terms of playing style, structure, fans. Everyone can pick what they prefer, so much is on offer. If someone bases the entertainment of a league solely on the title fight, fair enough, stay away from the Bundesliga at the moment until Bayern collapses again (not that Dortmund's title win in 2011 was a close battle by the way, people enjoyed it because they beat Bayern, not because it was close and thrilling).

If you really like all the following about the Bundesliga,
I like the Bundesliga. I love the fact that the ticket prices are low and I love the fans and the atmosphere, as well as their sensible approach to safe standing and the closeness between the club and its fans.
Fair enough. That's not what I was talking about though, I was only refering to things happening on the pitch. The way football is played in the league; the importance of youth development and trusting young talents as key players in the teams; the strong connection between the league and the nationalteam, which is a huge reason why Germany became so successful again; the tactical development with a huge influence on football all over the world.
You could comfortably add the youth development, trusting youth, coaching (and lack of coaching restrictions) and the connection between the teams and the National team to the list of reasons why I like German Football. It wasn't an exhaustive list!
a temporary dominance of one team won't keep you from enjoying the league.
 
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Of course more money makes it more likely to win titles, no one is denying that. You're massively exaggerating the level of dominance possible though. All the European top teams have a bad season/spell at least once every decade. The only exception was United under Ferguson, yet you take the fact that United finished above Arsenal every season for a decade as the norm, when it's clearly the exception. Real, Barca finished behind Villareal, Atletico, Valencia, Deportivo at one point since the turn of the century. Milan often had bad league seasons despite having the biggest budget in the league. Bayern finished behind several teams. It's the nature of the game, the dominance you expect simply never happened and there are good reasons for it.

Of course teams will occasionally falter and other teams will outperform their normal level. If these two happen concurrently a team that should never win a title, will win a title. It happened with Porto in the Champions League; a combination of massive luck, great management, a squad coming great at the right time, a seemingly infallible spirit etc. This happened in Germany with Bayern all over the place, whilst everything came together at Dortmund.

It's no coincidence that since Bayern stopped sacking managers every season, started spending the money they earn on top class player's and just employed top class coach they've started to win the League every year by a stupid points tally. As United fans we are more than aware that once you have a good manager, back them with far more cash than anyone else; success will follow consistently. It's no surprise Barcelona for instance have dropped down a level recently with their quest to win trophies with the most unknown inexperienced managers possible.

You're really overrating the points gap. Dortmund finished 8 points ahead of Bayern in 11/12 and 25 points behind Bayern in 12/13. In both cases the team that finished second actually played in the CL final and had a good case for being one of the strongest teams in the world. The gap doesn't reflect the actual strength of the teams, let alone is a good prediction for the future.

Of course the points gap reflects the strength of the teams (far more than a random cup run anyway). How well a team performs over 34/38 games in a season has far more bearing than how much they can raise their game on 3-4 occasions. Liverpool were a mediocre team when they won the Champions League in 2005, however they were quite fortunate with the draw, got a great amount of luck and raised their game when it mattered most.

Again, that's true, but the gap between 1st and 2nd won't get fixed unless the Bundesliga establishes itself as a top league, increases its popularity worldwide and clubs like Dortmund increase their commercial revenue and fully exploit the hype around them at the moment...

In general the competitive part of the league is overrated when it comes to selling the product. Being successful in Europe and having star players is what's important. No one cared about the Bundesliga when it was highly competitive but shit. Once Bayern got to the CL final and the nationalteam started to play entertaining and successful football, the hype started. Dortmund was the first team to use the hype to their advantage, built a fantastic team and pushed the league forward the same way Chelsea did in the Premier League. They set an incredible points record in the league, which pushed Bayern to strengthen more and more and the interest in German football doesn't slow down at the moment...

The Bundesliga is already establishing itself as a top League; it's probably third behind the Premier League and La Liga right now. The problem is that it will stagnate whilst Bayern mops every trophy going and wins the League by Xmas. One of the biggest reasons in my opinion (and many others) behind the increase in German TV deals is the close rivalry between Dortmund & Bayern. The shame of it is this rivalry was actually a facade; one team massively over-performing, one team massively under-performing. Status quo is now resumed and I assume the TV deals with stagnate to match.

Obviously you need a balance between competitiveness and star player's in top teams (Italy has neither tbf). The Premier League achieved both of these by having (in addition to United) a Russian Oligarch and a UAE Sheikh invest the best part of £2.5 billion.

It's not a domestic business though. It's clearly European, or even worldwide and if Bayern weren't able to compete with the salaries in England, Spain, Italy and France, it would be a way bigger problem for the Bundesliga than what we have now... Triple the salary isn't true anyway.

It is a domestic business when talking about the Bundesliga and its competitiveness. If a player like Messi became available Bayern would be one of the 4-5 clubs interested and would be offering easily €500k a week to get him, that's more than triple what Dortmund could and would be able to offer.

First of all, the Bundesliga is great to watch... while in domestic football in Europe you have brilliant relegation fights, often involving teams that actually play great football, but are unlucky for some reason, great battles for CL and EL spots and the Cup competition which countless upsets from smaller teams every year.

I agree that some aspects of German Football are brilliant. The battle for the final Champions League spot this year I think will be fantastic (with Dortmund having around 15 points to make up and 3-4 others going very strong). The problem is however that the title has been won by November. Everyone knows the 3 teams below Bayern won't keep up (much like Sot'on and Chelsea), so the competition for most important trophy of the German calendar lasted all of 10 games, which is a poor state of affairs.

Second of all, the regulations in the league won't allow investors to take over clubs, so it's a moot point. I don't think Stuttgart could attract a rich owner anyway, bored billionaires would pick clubs from big cities which make for a more interesting product. Hamburg, Hertha, Cologne and similar to City as United's local rival, 1860 as Bayern's could probably attract a potential buyer. It's something I also hate about rich investors. It screws small clubs even more, because it turns the chance to win something from likely to impossible while they also have no chance to win the lottery.

The regulations are easier to change than changing rules on re-distributing all of the Champions League or Commercial revenue. Small clubs are screwed over anyway, they aren't ever going to win the League. The trickle down effect of investors actually helps small clubs. Look at the numerous Premier League clubs receiving millions more than market value for their player's as a result of Chelsea/City; this money if used intelligently makes them stronger. Can you imagine a club like Mainz receiving €35m for their best player, that money would make a huge difference to their long term plans.

And at last, let's just assume Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim spent 300m more than they already did and had a realistic chance to beat Bayern to the title, but would at the same time completely destroy any longterm chance for Dortmund and Schalke to establish themselves as top clubs in Europe. Would that make the product Bundesliga more interesting? I don't think so, it would turn the Bundesliga into a weaker version of the Premier League and take everything that's unique about the league away. That's not the way to go. Like I said before, it's great that the European leagues offer something different, in terms of playing style, structure, fans. Everyone can pick what they prefer, so much is on offer. If someone bases the entertainment of a league solely on the title fight, fair enough, stay away from the Bundesliga at the moment until Bayern collapses again...

If you really like all the following about the Bundesliga, a temporary dominance of one team won't keep you from enjoying the league.

Dortmund wouldn't be destroyed by Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim spending £300m, just like Arsenal aren't destroyed by City or Chelsea. They would have to raise their game and continue to be well managed, but they would still have a great chance of Champions League qualification and would have a great chance of finishing above those 2 teams (just like Arsenal have finished above Chelsea & City twice in the last 5 seasons).

Your argument is very contradictory. You say that money doesn't guarantee success or trophies, but then say Dortmund would be ruined by other teams having more money as they'd not have any chance at progression. The truth is that the teams that spent £300m would have bad seasons, they'd make mistakes in the transfer market, they'd hire the wrong managers and employ the wrong tactics (just as Bayern did 3-4 years ago, which allowed them to win their titles).

Bayern's temporary dominance makes all their domestic matches boring and pointless, but doesn't ruin every facet of the League; I will happily enjoy some of the other games between 2nd, 3rd and 4th place. However it'll slowly kill the money coming into the League, as no one wants to watch Mike Tyson beat up a scrawny teenager every week; after a few times it just becomes depressing and cruel.
 
Your argument is very contradictory. You say that money doesn't guarantee success or trophies, but then say Dortmund would be ruined by other teams having more money as they'd not have any chance at progression. The truth is that the teams that spent £300m would have bad seasons, they'd make mistakes in the transfer market, they'd hire the wrong managers and employ the wrong tactics (just as Bayern did 3-4 years ago, which allowed them to win their titles).
You're losing the plot here. Van Gaal won the double and made it to the CL final, Heynckes won the treble with us and you call them the wrong managers with the wrong tactics? And you call my argument contradictory?
 
You're losing the plot here. Van Gaal won the double and made it to the CL final, Heynckes won the treble with us and you call them the wrong managers with the wrong tactics? And you call my argument contradictory?

Referring to before Heynckes. Van Gaal was potentially the right man but got treated poorly (which is a common theme at Bayern, very reactionary which has contributed to their downfall).
 
Of course teams will occasionally falter and other teams will outperform their normal level. If these two happen concurrently a team that should never win a title, will win a title. It happened with Porto in the Champions League; a combination of massive luck, great management, a squad coming great at the right time, a seemingly infallible spirit etc. This happened in Germany with Bayern all over the place, whilst everything came together at Dortmund.
It's no coincidence that since Bayern stopped sacking managers every season, started spending the money they earn on top class player's and just employed top class coach they've started to win the League every year by a stupid points tally. As United fans we are more than aware that once you have a good manager, back them with far more cash than anyone else; success will follow consistently. It's no surprise Barcelona for instance have dropped down a level recently with their quest to win trophies with the most unknown inexperienced managers possible.

What?
:wenger:
 
Referring to before Heynckes. Van Gaal was potentially the right man but got treated poorly (which is a common theme at Bayern, very reactionary which has contributed to their downfall).

While I agree that Van Gaal was treated too harshly, I'm quite happy with the way our "downfall" turned out in the end.

No matter how much Bayern dominate the league at the moment, as long as 3 or even all 4 of our teams advance in the CL (2 surely topping their group with Leverkusen having good chances at making it 3) I'm not too worried about interest in the Bundesliga dropping anytime soon.
 
Referring to before Heynckes. Van Gaal was potentially the right man but got treated poorly (which is a common theme at Bayern, very reactionary which has contributed to their downfall).
Sorry, but that's just bullshit. What exactly has the club done right in the past 3 decades to become one of the biggest clubs in the world? And what kind of downfall are you talking about? There isn't one. The '00 - decade was domestically the most successful in the history of the club for feck sake.
 
While I agree that Van Gaal was treated too harshly, I'm quite happy with the way our "downfall" turned out in the end.

No matter how much Bayern dominate the league at the moment, as long as 3 or even all 4 of our teams advance in the CL (2 surely topping their group with Leverkusen having good chances at making it 3) I'm not too worried about interest in the Bundesliga dropping anytime soon.
Sorry, but that's just bullshit. What exactly has the club done right in the past 3 decades to become one of the biggest clubs in the world? And what kind of downfall are you talking about? There isn't one. The '00 - decade was domestically the most successful in the history of the club for feck sake.

Obviously when you are so much richer than everyone else a "downfall" isn't going to be relegation. A downfall is getting less than 70 points in a season, or 2 concurrent seasons. 1993 - 1998 was a big downfall, 2001 - 2003 a smaller one, 2008 - 2012 likewise.

Bayern should be winning the League with their financial dominance nine times out of 10, eight if you're being kind. Their downfalls have stopped them achieving this dominance. These downfalls are a result of a reactionary board, a failure to commit enough to player investment and general poor managerial hirings and firings.

Now that they have a top manager and are spending a good amount of money I expect them to win the League 90%.
 
Obviously when you are so much richer than everyone else a "downfall" isn't going to be relegation. A downfall is getting less than 70 points in a season, or 2 concurrent seasons. 1993 - 1998 was a big downfall, 2001 - 2003 likewise, 2008 - 2012 likewise.

Bayern should be winning the League with their financial dominance nine times out of 10, eight if you're being kind. Their downfalls have stopped them achieving this dominance. These downfalls are a result of a reactionary board, a failure to commit enough to player investment and general poor managerial hirings and firings..

This is getting really weird. So Bayern is pretty much constantly in a state of downfall, because according to you downfalls make up 14 of the last 22 years, while also completely dominating the league. Where's the sense in that? And what's that 70 points or less nonsense? 80+ points seasons have never happened prior to Dortmund's then record breaking season. In 2009, Bayern won the league with exactly 70 points, 5 points clear of Schalke and reached the CL final. So were they dominating that year or on the verge of another downfall?

Too many people have probably never watched or followed the Bundesliga for more than 3 or 4 years, so anything but the "Dortmund vs Bayern era" or Bayerns record breaking seasons never happened or gets completely distorted. Either that or they just don't remember. Or think that apart from Bayern every team in the league since the 90's was basically Southhampton.
 
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Obviously when you are so much richer than everyone else a "downfall" isn't going to be relegation. A downfall is getting less than 70 points in a season, or 2 concurrent seasons. 1993 - 1998 was a big downfall, 2001 - 2003 a smaller one, 2008 - 2012 likewise.

Bayern should be winning the League with their financial dominance nine times out of 10, eight if you're being kind. Their downfalls have stopped them achieving this dominance. These downfalls are a result of a reactionary board, a failure to commit enough to player investment and general poor managerial hirings and firings.

Now that they have a top manager and are spending a good amount of money I expect them to win the League 90%.
Are you serious? 70 points was always a great season and only changed in the past 3 years, when we had the strongest team in the history of the club. We won the Champions League in 2001 ffs and you call it a downfall, because we won a highly competitive league with 'only' 63 points?

Also do you know anything about our financial situation and the financial balance in the league in the 90's and in the early 00's?
 
This happened in Germany with Bayern all over the place, whilst everything came together at Dortmund.
We were in the CL final and played an excellent season, when Dortmund won their second title. If that doesn't prove that the standards you set for teams are clearly wrong, then I don't know what will. It's simply disrespectful to call that season 'all over the place', to us and to Dortmund. We finished the season on 73 points, only twice in the previous ten seasons that wouldn't have been enough for us to win the league.

Status quo is now resumed and I assume the TV deals with stagnate to match.
You're wrong, but we'll have to wait a few years to find out.

It is a domestic business when talking about the Bundesliga and its competitiveness. If a player like Messi became available Bayern would be one of the 4-5 clubs interested and would be offering easily €500k a week to get him, that's more than triple what Dortmund could and would be able to offer.
You can't talk about the Bundesliga without taking Europe into account, that's plain wrong. If you have to remove half of the competitions the club takes part in for it to make sense, you should realise how stupid it is. And we wouldn't ever offer 500k a week to Messi.

The regulations are easier to change than changing rules on re-distributing all of the Champions League or Commercial revenue. Small clubs are screwed over anyway, they aren't ever going to win the League. The trickle down effect of investors actually helps small clubs. Look at the numerous Premier League clubs receiving millions more than market value for their player's as a result of Chelsea/City; this money if used intelligently makes them stronger. Can you imagine a club like Mainz receiving €35m for their best player, that money would make a huge difference to their long term plans.
You completely ignore the wages though. Most Premier League clubs operate similar to what Porto did better than anyone else in the past decade. Give players contracts on high wages and finance it through huge transfers. Bundesliga clubs in general operate on lower wages, therefore struggle to give longterm contracts to great talents and earn less with transfers, often losing top players with only one year left on the contract. It doesn't affect the overall quality of the team though and it also means that German clubs aren't dependent on making money by selling players. It's simply a different business model and you have to look at the full model, not just the small part that suits your argument. The side effect in the Premier League is that countless average players are on ridiculously high wages and can't be sold, which causes many problems and makes it impossible to use the money, the clubs earn with the few big transfers, effectively.

Bayern's temporary dominance makes all their domestic matches boring and pointless, but doesn't ruin every facet of the League; I will happily enjoy some of the other games between 2nd, 3rd and 4th place.
That's your personal opinion and isn't reflected by the constantly growing interest in the league worldwide.
 
I think finneh´s premisses are slightly off. The idea that the EPL is always a 3+ horse race for the title just doesnt match reality. United dominated the league for almost two decades usually with only one competitor each year and won the title more often than bayern during this period. Last year was an anomaly, because SAF ended his carrer, which allowed weaker teams to stay in the race, but that wont happen again anytime soon. Now Chelsea has a strong team and is crushing the league. Their closest rival is already 8 points off, while wolfsburg is only 4 points behind bayern. The EPL title race is already over - in November. Thats not even a surprise; many predicted exactly that. Investors dont really seem to accomplish what finneh is trying to sell us. At least not in the long run.

Yes, the EPL had exciting duels - United vs Arsenal, United vs Chelsea and United vs City - but the same happend in the bundesliga. Bayern vs dortmund (end of the 90s), bayern vs bremen, bayern vs everyone (stuttgart/wolfsburg winning the league) and bayern vs dortmund. I dont see the fundamental difference.

Yes, it is worthy to talk about the current dominance of bayern in the bundesliga and it wouldnt be good if we win the title every year in december. Still you seem to miss the most important issue about that: bayern has a freak team; maybe matching their best team ever in terms of quality and success. A lot of things came together and money was just one of those things.
Now to the last and most important issue: Does the dominance of bayern during the last two years hurt the bundesliga? There is no data at all, that would support such a claim. The bundsliga is growing and gets more international attention than ever. The most important thing for the Bundesliga is, that german clubs do well in the CL, so bayern reaching finals help the league a lot.

I think that the UEFA should distribute the CL money differently (enhance the status of the UEFA-Cup), but thats a different issue.
 
I think finneh´s premisses are slightly off.
I agree with every word with the exception of that one. He called a season in which we won the league and the CL a downfall. 'slightly' doesn't describe how far off his premisses are.
 
This is getting really weird. So Bayern is pretty much constantly in a state of downfall, because according to you downfalls make up 14 of the last 22 years, while also completely dominating the league. Where's the sense in that? And what's that 70 points or less nonsense? 80+ points seasons have never happened prior to Dortmund's then record breaking season. In 2009, Bayern won the league with exactly 70 points, 5 points clear of Schalke and reached the CL final. So were they dominating that year or on the verge of another downfall?

Too many people have probably never watched or followed the Bundesliga for more than 3 or 4 years, so anything but the "Dortmund vs Bayern era" or Bayerns record breaking seasons never happened or gets completely distorted. Either that or they just don't remember. Or think that apart from Bayern every team in the league since the 90's was basically Southhampton.

Bayern have had 14 changes of manager in the last 20 years. That highlights how up and down they have been over that period. They have a great couple of seasons, following by a slow start and the sacking of a manager. The club is then de-stabilised, goes through a couple of poor managers, finds a good one and rinse repeat.

Some of their points differences in the last 20 years suggest this as well:

43 in 94/95 vs 62 in 95/96 (+44%)
66 in 97/98 vs 78 in 98/99 (-18%)
75 in 05/06 vs 60 in 06/07 (+25%)
73 in 11/12 vs 91 in 12/13 (+24%)

These are pretty insane swings of fortune over the course of 1 season to the next. As a comparison United over that same period never had more than a 12% swing in points totals, with it usually around the 6-7% mark.

We were in the CL final and played an excellent season, when Dortmund won their second title. If that doesn't prove that the standards you set for teams are clearly wrong, then I don't know what will. It's simply disrespectful to call that season 'all over the place', to us and to Dortmund. We finished the season on 73 points, only twice in the previous ten seasons that wouldn't have been enough for us to win the league.

Dortmund's season was excellent. No doubt about that. It had nothing to do with Bayern being poor and everything to do with absolutely everything going their way. It was like Liverpool last season; you can't take it away from them.

You can't talk about the Bundesliga without taking Europe into account, that's plain wrong. If you have to remove half of the competitions the club takes part in for it to make sense, you should realise how stupid it is. And we wouldn't ever offer 500k a week to Messi.

Of course you don't have to take Europe into account. We all know you have one incredible team, one good team and a few mediocre teams in Europe. The whole discussion is based around Bayern's dominance killing the Bundesliga. Their dominance will never hurt Europe as you have Madrid, Barcelona, United etc who are all on the same level as you financially. Bayern, along with Madrid, Chelsea, City, PSG would all be offering that kind of salary for Messi. Especially so with Pep as your manager.

You completely ignore the wages though. Most Premier League clubs operate similar to what Porto did better than anyone else in the past decade. Give players contracts on high wages and finance it through huge transfers. Bundesliga clubs in general operate on lower wages, therefore struggle to give longterm contracts to great talents and earn less with transfers, often losing top players with only one year left on the contract. It doesn't affect the overall quality of the team though and it also means that German clubs aren't dependent on making money by selling players. It's simply a different business model and you have to look at the full model, not just the small part that suits your argument. The side effect in the Premier League is that countless average players are on ridiculously high wages and can't be sold, which causes many problems and makes it impossible to use the money, the clubs earn with the few big transfers, effectively.

It is a slightly different model, but it's also one that is changing. Bayern are starting to pay fee's and wages that they never have before, which is the investment that is, ironically, causing your dominance in the League. Of course offering a lower salary affects the overall quality of the team, you don't offer Lewandowski and Gotze the best part of €10m Euros per year and they go abroad and you are stuck with with the likes of Mandzukic, who are a level or two below.

That's your personal opinion and isn't reflected by the constantly growing interest in the league worldwide.

It is my personal opinion, but one that is backed up by the stagnating revenues in other "one horse race" League's. If we agree that the rivalry between Dortmund and Bayern was one of the reasons for a big increase in revenue, we must also accept that the opposite would cause the opposite affect. My view is that the Bundesliga TV revenue will stagnate.

Your last TV deal rose 52% to €628m after the tug of war between Bayern and Dortmund, whilst the overseas revenues increased by a similar rate to €72m. My betting is that instead of breaking the €1 billion mark for them combined as you'd expect (if you are following the Premier League expansion model), when Bayern win the next 3 titles comfortably, the 2017 renewal will be a small increase.

Again though, only time will tell.
 
Bayern have had 14 changes of manager in the last 20 years. That highlights how up and down they have been over that period. They have a great couple of seasons, following by a slow start and the sacking of a manager. The club is then de-stabilised, goes through a couple of poor managers, finds a good one and rinse repeat.

Some of their points differences in the last 20 years suggest this as well:

43 in 94/95 vs 62 in 95/96 (+44%)
66 in 97/98 vs 78 in 98/99 (-18%)
75 in 05/06 vs 60 in 06/07 (+25%)
73 in 11/12 vs 91 in 12/13 (+24%)

These are pretty insane swings of fortune over the course of 1 season to the next. As a comparison United over that same period never had more than a 12% swing in points totals, with it usually around the 6-7% mark.


This could just as easily mean that the Bundesliga is/was exciting, dynamic in terms of competition and unpredictable while the EPL is predictable with United almost always winning and even getting roughly the same points total year in and year out. Not saying that it is, but you can always read stats in more than one way.
 
Bayern have had 14 changes of manager in the last 20 years. That highlights how up and down they have been over that period. They have a great couple of seasons, following by a slow start and the sacking of a manager. The club is then de-stabilised, goes through a couple of poor managers, finds a good one and rinse repeat.

Some of their points differences in the last 20 years suggest this as well:

43 in 94/95 vs 62 in 95/96 (+44%)
66 in 97/98 vs 78 in 98/99 (-18%)
75 in 05/06 vs 60 in 06/07 (+25%)
73 in 11/12 vs 91 in 12/13 (+24%)

These are pretty insane swings of fortune over the course of 1 season to the next. As a comparison United over that same period never had more than a 12% swing in points totals, with it usually around the 6-7% mark.
This is just silly. Again, you take Ferguson's United as the norm. Maybe you should do the same for Real, Barca, Milan, Juve, Chelsea and then we can talk, if Bayern is the exception or United were under the greatest manager of all time. I'm pretty sure it's the latter.
 
I think finneh´s premisses are slightly off. The idea that the EPL is always a 3+ horse race for the title just doesnt match reality. United dominated the league for almost two decades usually with only one competitor each year and won the title more often than bayern during this period. Last year was an anomaly, because SAF ended his carrer, which allowed weaker teams to stay in the race, but that wont happen again anytime soon. Now Chelsea has a strong team and is crushing the league. Their closest rival is already 8 points off, while wolfsburg is only 4 points behind bayern. The EPL title race is already over - in November. Thats not even a surprise; many predicted exactly that. Investors dont really seem to accomplish what finneh is trying to sell us. At least not in the long run.

Yes, the EPL had exciting duels - United vs Arsenal, United vs Chelsea and United vs City - but the same happend in the bundesliga. Bayern vs dortmund (end of the 90s), bayern vs bremen, bayern vs everyone (stuttgart/wolfsburg winning the league) and bayern vs dortmund. I dont see the fundamental difference.

Yes, it is worthy to talk about the current dominance of bayern in the bundesliga and it wouldnt be good if we win the title every year in december. Still you seem to miss the most important issue about that: bayern has a freak team; maybe matching their best team ever in terms of quality and success. A lot of things came together and money was just one of those things.
Now to the last and most important issue: Does the dominance of bayern during the last two years hurt the bundesliga? There is no data at all, that would support such a claim. The bundsliga is growing and gets more international attention than ever. The most important thing for the Bundesliga is, that german clubs do well in the CL, so bayern reaching finals help the league a lot.

I think that the UEFA should distribute the CL money differently (enhance the status of the UEFA-Cup), but thats a different issue.

I never suggested that the Premier League is always a three horse race. Going into the season however, since the rise of City/Chelsea, it has always been a few teams that had a good chance. Chelsea winning the League any of the past 5 years wouldn't be a huge shock, City winning it wouldn't be a huge shock, obviously United winning it wouldn't be a shock. Going into this season we had Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Arsenal & United who were all under 12/1 to win the League.

The period of our dominance that you refer to is exactly the situation that I am talking about trying to avoid for the Bundesliga. We were by far the richest team and so we won 8 of 11 titles, 9 if you discount Blackburn as a sugar daddy team.

The Premier League may go through the odd season where everyone cocks up and one team is a clear winner (as will any League). The Bundesliga however is shaping up to be that way perpetually (with or without the cocking up). Bayern are only 4 points ahead, but are 1/33 to win the League with Wolfsburg at 66/1. The second best team in Germany at the moment has the same chance to win the League as Southampton... That must tell you that there is zero chance of Bayern not stomping the League.
 
The period of our dominance that you refer to is exactly the situation that I am talking about trying to avoid for the Bundesliga. We were by far the richest team and so we won 8 of 11 titles, 9 if you discount Blackburn as a sugar daddy team.

So what is the actual point here? Uniteds dominance clearly hasn't hurt the league or other teams in any way considering how incredibly rich the league has become during United's era of dominance and how it is still growing financally. Also, the age of dominance came to an end and the league is "exciting" again even though Chelsea is running away with it. Why would such a situation be horrible for the Bundesliga? What are we even talking about here?