I don't see why they wouldn't be able to go above 95 points in England. The difference is they wouldn't finish so far ahead of the rest of the league because Chelsea, City and United are far better than Wolfsburg, Leverkusen and Schalke and will obviously finish on more points. They would still dispose of teams like Stoke, Swansea and Newcastle easily.
Bundesliga, DFB Cup, and other Bundesliga business 2014/2015
- Thread starter ManniKaltz
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I don't see why they wouldn't be able to go above 95 points in England. The difference is they wouldn't finish so far ahead of the rest of the league because Chelsea, City and United are far better than Wolfsburg, Leverkusen and Schalke and will obviously finish on more points. They would still dispose of teams like Stoke, Swansea and Newcastle easily.
My point all along, the PL is more competitive with better teams (other than Bayern)
Are they really far better? Specially Leverkusen makes its job and so on. And yes, Schalke lost 0:5 to Chelsea, but also drew 1:1 at the Bridge.
I think that we can agree that the Bundesliga has a super team, the PL 2 very good ones and then its around the same quality.
Of course they are better. Current Chelsea, City and United would easily win Bayern-less Bundesliga and so would Arsenal as they are much better than Schalke, Leverkusen and Wolfsburg. Last season's Dortmund could give any of them a challenge mind. The likes of Liverpool and Tottenham could win Bundesliga too provided Bayern didn't exist.
Leverkusen wouldn't even be top 4 in England, not a chance. To say that aside from Chelsea, City and Bayern the rest of the league is the same quality is absurd and this is not coming from a PL fanboy because I am always annoyed when PL superiority argument breaks out, and will gladly admit that I consider La Liga a better and stronger league.
City would not. Not in a league that is full of pressing and counterpressing...
Liverpool or Tottenham wouldn't win anything in the Bundesliga and you will see that soon again in the EL. Liverpool shouldn't have beaten a pub team from Bulgaria and they look lost against Basel. I fully expect Wolfsburg and Gladbach to beat them. Arsenal finished behind Schalke not so long ago, they finished behind a 17th place Dortmund this year in the CL, in their current form they are not much better than those mentioned german teams.
Everton did beat Wolfsburg 4-1 and 2-0 this season and Everton haven't got a chance of finishing top 4, Wolfsburg will probably finish 2nd. 3rd-8th teams are easily better in the Premier League. Obviously it's a lot harder to compare bottom half teams in different leagues, although you'll find more higher quality international players in the bottom half of the premier league than you would in the Bundesliga.
Of course they are , problem is it upsets the Bayern fans because their success in the BL is diluted because of it, have a 38 game season and no winter break against tougher teams, might not be so easy
And 17th placed Dortmund smashed Arsenal comfortable in the first game and could have won that with 5 or six goals, sorry but such comparisons of single games don't make much sense. Wolfsburg wasn't 2nd in the first few weeks, where they struggled and lost 1-4 to Everton. And when you watched the 2nd game, you should know that Wolfsburg was much better and was very unlucky to lose that game. West Ham is 4th in the PL now, where are the people who think they could win the Bundesliga this year. Bayern would walk the PL and the Bundesliga right now, if you swap them with Chelsea, they are the best team in the world together with Real Madrid and it's pretty irrelevant if they would win it with 15 points or 20 points. And that's most likely the gap teams like us or Arsenal would be behind them, if that's a little bit more or less than Wolfsburg, who cares about that anyway.
It's fascinating how easily some people ignore that if you take Bayern and Chelsea out of the equation, the other 5 German teams actually collected more points in their CL & EL groups than the other 5 English teams. Arsenal finished 3 times in a row behind German teams now (Schalke once, Dortmund twice). Liverpool finished behind Basel and celebrated a draw against Ludogerets as a success. Yet if you read this page and didn't know what was happening in the real world, you'd get the impression that the German teams besides Bayern are one collective failure while the English teams rocked Europe.
Weird that we're talking about the BL v PL competitiveness and the talk turns to how German clubs have performed in group matches in Europe.
CL winners - last 10 years - PL Man Utd, Liverpool Chelsea (3) - BL Bayern (1)
Wolfsburg official UEFA ranking in European competition 90th (2nd BL) - 2 places above Fulham (bottom half 2nd tier English football)
CL winners - last 10 years - PL Man Utd, Liverpool Chelsea (3) - BL Bayern (1)
Wolfsburg official UEFA ranking in European competition 90th (2nd BL) - 2 places above Fulham (bottom half 2nd tier English football)
To be honest, I've no idea what you're talking about. My post fits pretty well to several comments made on this page though.
The top half of the Premiership is clearly ahead of Germany. That's not an insult, it's not a slight in the German league, it just is. Europe is by no means a barometer if anything. If it did then you wouldn't touch a City player if they were on a free.
People get too defensive over their respective league. I'm in another forum and their Italian fans swear blind that they're on par with England. It's a tactical league that a English clubs couldn't handle etc.
Some things are common sense
People get too defensive over their respective league. I'm in another forum and their Italian fans swear blind that they're on par with England. It's a tactical league that a English clubs couldn't handle etc.
Some things are common sense
What happened 10 years ago isn't relevant to now. There's no doubt that English football has went downhill over 10 years, whilst German football has went from strength to strength.
Bayern would obviously not win the premiership by as many points as the bundesliga but only because Chelsea and city will get more than the second place team in Germany.
Bayern are a machine, they'd win the Premiership in my opinion. Their consistancy in terms of results (last season once they'd won the league aside) is amazing.
To be fair, the interview was cut after every question, so it was not totally free speech. But impressive, nonetheless.
Top half is probably guessing a bit much. Just saying. National games are hard to compare. That's why we usually talk about the usual suspects that meet each other in the CL instead of a hypothetical Swansea vs. Paderborn.
The same is obviously true for Premier League fans. The whole idea that Europe is by no means a barometer is a bit silly. I'm pretty sure that English fans were quite happy to use the dominance of English teams in Europe 5-10 years ago as a barometer for the strength of the league and rightfully so.
You're basically saying, Premier League teams don't have to prove that they're better, they just are. Calling that common sense sounds a lot more like made up reasons (comparable to the ones you criticise in your Italian football forum) to defend the dwindling superiority of your league than pointing to overall results in the competitions we have that allow us to compare leagues with each other through games.
It's not like I'm blindly defending the Bundesliga either. I don't have a problem to admit that La Liga is easily a level above the Bundesliga at the moment. That's common sense and proven without doubt in the past years.
That's exactly the talk I can't understand. You mention again City stars, but who cares about that. Yeah the PL has more stars and more money, but that doesn't mean the teams are better. And City is the best example for that, they look like a joke in Europe compared to what Dortmund and Atletico did in the last few years. You can have 11 star players on the pitch, doesn't mean they are also a good team. And Europe is the best barometer we have, it's not perfect by any means, but everything else is just wild speculation. And the Serie A comparison isn't good either. Serie A is far behind the other 3 leagues and results in Europe prove that. But we have no proof that the PL is superior to the Bundesliga or La Liga, in fact english teams were a huge disappointment in Europe the last 3,4 years with all that money spent.
And it's not about my league or anything, I'm a United fan from Austria and I like the PL the most, I have nothing to do with Germany and I don't even like Bayern, but the arrogance from some PL fans always suprised me and can't really understand it, it was ok 6,7 years ago, but right now I don't think there is any reason to have that attidude.
You pick your facts and numbers out of context here.
Bayern would have won Chelseas title in most nights for example.
And the Liverpool win was also more that of an underdog then of a great playing,cleary better team.
No one denies that the PL had 3 to 4 great teams since 2005/06 till the early 2010s.
But the Bundesliga always performed in the hard EL and we had our CL stories.
And seeing that last decade mention; the PL did as poorly as it could have done with all the money. Spanish clubs won the 00s and Italy can make a point that it was better too.
The PL sold its soul and beat the Bundesliga by 2:1 CL titles in the 00s. And the spending got worse.
Liverpool,City,Arsenal,Chelsea,United.
All failed in their CL groups and/or are just push overs for years now.
The PL is a top 3 league. But not the best and not clearly above the Bundesliga.
Frohe Weihnachten btw to all here
Europe isn't a barometer because the respective teams aren't facing the same opposition. Shalke drew with Sporting while Liverpool lost v Basel. Does that mean Schalke > Liverpool? MK Dons beat Utd this year.. League 1 > Premiership? How can Dortmund be held up as competitive in Germany when they've sucked in the league over the last 2 seasons yet have played well while in Europe? Makes no sense. There's an understanding for a team to do well in Europe consistently, they need European experience. You don't need European experience for domestic football. By and large, English fans / clubs don't take the Europa league seriously. Playing Thursday and Sunday is seen as a disaster and a burden, England and Italy share the same view point and distain for it.
Fans of other leagues are fixated on the top four of England. Where would West Ham be in Germany? Southampton on form? Everton even. The talent in Spurs squad. We had a side who finished 7th a few years back yet should have won it last year. If they had ( they really should have ) it would have been 4 different winners in 5 years. That's competitive.
In my view the only reason Bayern are so good is lack of resistance. If they were in England fighting over domestic stars and not cherry picking them, if they were in a league facing sides with similar and superior financial muscle then they wouldn't be this all conquering domestic machine. If you replace Bayern in the Bundesliga with any other top side in Europe with all of their advantages, you would replicate Bayerns success.
Its been three whole days, and you're STILL at it 
This is the typical 'pick the examples as they suit your agenda' - post with not the slightest bit of interest in looking at the overall picture. It's fascinating really. Obviously the bigger picture means that the point you're trying to make is wrong, so you have to dismiss its credibilty with selective examples and then start to use weird speculation with nothing to back it up to big up the league you support.
As an example, Liverpool finishing 2nd for one season is a proof of the exciting quality of the league, Liverpool finishing behind Basel is a sign of inexperience and shouldn't count (let's ignore that Schalke beat Basel home and away last season and finished above them with if I'm not mistaken a younger team). Then Dortmund doing well in Europe and being bad in the league is an example for Dortmund sucks and not for the league being actually strong and able to challenge Dortmund, even though the European clubs struggle to do the same. Wolfsburg being 2nd is a sign of weakness, not the sign of quality it is when a team like Liverpool finish 2nd. And Wolfsburg losing against Everton obviously is also a sign of weakness, inexperience isn't an excuse for German teams, only for English teams.
But yeah, obviously we should ignore all of that because United in disarray with lots of reserve players lost against MK Dons, therefore 5 years of performances in European competitions and hundreds of games could never give us a somewhat reasonable picture of the strength of the top 6-7 teams in the top leagues.
When did Dortmund become this European powerhouse btw? They had a good run and that's it, let's not pretend they're this elite side in the Champions League. How can you even bring this up when they haven't performed anywhere near to those levels in Germany for 2 years now? Bundesliga gets the pub team, CL get the real thing. Adds nothing to the competitiveness of the league because they perform like dogshit when actually facing other German sides. Dortmund being the hipsters favourite is no more.
I never mentioned Wolfsburg or Everton, no strawman here.
If anything that backs up my point. You do not judge quality or competitiveness of leagues by those childish standards. European experience is an accepted term to use, you rarely dazzle in Europe without a grounding first.
There's no shame in being a bit behind England, the money alone ensures that. It's just when a foreign fan claims their league is better, there's an argument. Premeir League fan? There's always a dig about arrogance and it's not a new thing, it's been going on for years when England actually had the best league lol.
I hate these argument because it's so juvenile, but if you listened to every fan from every other league in their respective forums, England lies behind italy / Spain / Bosnian second division.
Anyway I'm not getting overly involved in this, just the way I see it.
I never mentioned Wolfsburg or Everton, no strawman here.
If anything that backs up my point. You do not judge quality or competitiveness of leagues by those childish standards. European experience is an accepted term to use, you rarely dazzle in Europe without a grounding first.
There's no shame in being a bit behind England, the money alone ensures that. It's just when a foreign fan claims their league is better, there's an argument. Premeir League fan? There's always a dig about arrogance and it's not a new thing, it's been going on for years when England actually had the best league lol.
I hate these argument because it's so juvenile, but if you listened to every fan from every other league in their respective forums, England lies behind italy / Spain / Bosnian second division.
Anyway I'm not getting overly involved in this, just the way I see it.
Still, if I was asked even one question in German on the spot I'd be thinking about the correct article, gender of nouns, etc. for about 2 minutes before I can form a coherent sentence. It might be just me trying to overthink, though.To be fair, the interview was cut after every question, so it was not totally free speech. But impressive, nonetheless.
I'm dreading the speaking tests next semester.
Cmmon, that's obviously not true. You have similar squad depths, Bayern for me has more quality first XI but even if you have better squad depth it's really not that much better as you would suggest. You used just one player more than Chelsea this season and you were missing so many players during the season.
You replaced them with Lahm and Alaba but then you play Rafinha and Bernat as fullbacks, so that's not that impressive as you make it out to be.
Obviously it isnt' when the team is well working, but first bad result and they are the ones to blame, that's how it goes. I am not saying they are weak links, but I am sure Guardiola didn't plan counting them to play that much, especially Bernat who plays all the time.
Now you are just using the same argument as everyone else which proves nothing. What is stoping people from using argument that Bayer Leverkusen, team that was trashed by last year's United, is third best team in Bundesliga this season(they finished fourth last season, and third the season before, so they are obviously 3rd or fourth best team in BL in general)? Then you have Chelsea and Schalke, same situationa s Bayern and City, 6 points between them, etc. Bayern are obviously one of the top teams in Europe, and City are shit in Europe.
The fact is, the difference between Bayern and City in Europe is as big as the difference between Chelsea and Schalke, but the difference between City and Chelsea isn't as big as it is the difference between Bayern and Schalke.
Its been three whole days, and you're STILL at it
I think everyone agrees to disagree
and cherry-picking stats that suit them , it's all a matter of opinion which can never be proved - not until we have a real European League and the German teams other than Bayern get relegated in the first season
Merry Xmas - Joyeux Noël - Frohe Weihnachten
J
#Toastergate...
Think you get a BVB toaster for Xmas... And at the next morning when you want to eat a toast with the BVB-logo on it... it is a FCB one...
Think you get a BVB toaster for Xmas... And at the next morning when you want to eat a toast with the BVB-logo on it... it is a FCB one...
I would have said the exact opposite. Chelsea's first eleven is almost as good as ours and with everyone fit it would be 50/50 in a one off game. But we can easily replace top players while Chelsea can't. Take Lewandowski and Robben out of our team, and we start with Ribery, Müller, Götze. What's left at Chelsea without Costa and Hazard? Same in midfield, take Matic and Fabregas away and Chelsea is fecked. We're constantly missing at least two players as good as those two and still are fine in midfield. Martinez and Schweinsteiger out and we have Lahm, Alonso, Thiago, Alaba. Not much in squad depth between the teams in defense and Chelsea has the better goalkeeper back-up.
Yup. Chelsea doesn't really have a strong depth. Hazard is completely irreplaceable and they'd just be very tenacious and hard working team without him, compared to a team like Bayern/Real. Fabregas, Matic and Costa would also be huge blows for them that they'd be severely hurt by.
You can't say Chelsea have much depth. We yet to see how they handle a few injuries. Matic missed one game and they lost.
Bayern have had a insane amount of injuries.
Bayern have had a insane amount of injuries.
Yup, Chelsea does not have a squad comparable to you lot. Fortunately for them, they do not have many injury problems in their squad.
Dortmund is a european powerhouse. They made themselves debt free this year(sound crazy for PL guys I know) and they won 5 trophies since 2011.
Better then most clubs in europe. Even their last season was a good one with a trophy, the cup final, 2nd in the league and quarters in the CL, when they went out to the destined champions in a close battle.
They had a few crazy months this season, but won their CL group, won a trophy against Bayern and have a good chance in the cup.
They will ensure europe in cup and/or league(EL where you can make UEFA points and play for a nice international trophy) and continue to built themselves up.
Again; I understand that they look bad right now, but they made 140 million with investors alone this year and still have a very strong team. Most guys have long contracts too.
Dortmund will not fade away. They were overdue for a bad year. And they could still make it good. All ok atm.
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Yes but none of that is in Europe. Selling clubs rarely have sustained success in the CL, and I wouldn't call them an elite CL club that's competing with the best. Takes a bit more than what they've done to be up there IMO.
Of the five teams that won the Bundesliga in the last eleven seasons - 3 are in the last four of the table at winter break. The other two are first and second...
Interesting stats from WhoScored
Where are the German teams?
PassSuccess%
1 Paris Saint Germain Ligue 1 88.6
2 Barcelona La Liga 88.5
3 Roma Serie A 87.0
4 Bayern Munich Bundesliga 86.8
5 Real Madrid La Liga 86.5
6 Manchester United Premier League 86.0
7 Juventus Serie A 85.7
8 Manchester City Premier League 85.4
9 Chelsea Premier League 84.9
10 Everton Premier League 84.7
11 Arsenal Premier League 84.7
12 Marseille Ligue 1 84.0
13 Inter Serie A 83.9
14 Napoli Serie A 83.8
15 Fiorentina Serie A 83.8
16 Lyon Ligue 1 83.7
17 Liverpool Premier League 83.1
18 Swansea Premier League 83.0
19 Tottenham Premier League 82.0
20 AC Milan Serie A 1 81.9
© WhoScored
Where are the German teams?
PassSuccess%
1 Paris Saint Germain Ligue 1 88.6
2 Barcelona La Liga 88.5
3 Roma Serie A 87.0
4 Bayern Munich Bundesliga 86.8
5 Real Madrid La Liga 86.5
6 Manchester United Premier League 86.0
7 Juventus Serie A 85.7
8 Manchester City Premier League 85.4
9 Chelsea Premier League 84.9
10 Everton Premier League 84.7
11 Arsenal Premier League 84.7
12 Marseille Ligue 1 84.0
13 Inter Serie A 83.9
14 Napoli Serie A 83.8
15 Fiorentina Serie A 83.8
16 Lyon Ligue 1 83.7
17 Liverpool Premier League 83.1
18 Swansea Premier League 83.0
19 Tottenham Premier League 82.0
20 AC Milan Serie A 1 81.9
© WhoScored
There's one!!
I was just browsing WhoScored.com, and noticed this table, designed to measure which teams win the most aerial duels per game in Europe's top 5 leagues (England, Germany, Spain, France, Italy).
As you can see, 16 of the top 20 teams are from the Bundesliga. I find that rather amazing, and i'm guessing that the ball spends an awful lot of time in the air in this league? Or does it?
What's your thoughts on the reasons behind this stat?
Weirdly, there are only 2 missing from this stat
The ball's never on the ground!
high tempo counter pressing football?
Why are you in specific, @Paul the Wolf, on this annoying mission to keep this discussion going?
We're not allowed to discuss on a Forum?
Especially when reality comes to the surface
Lyricist answered it great. Quick pressing stops passes in the league.
And you can argue that these numbers show the depth and talent of the Bundesliga where not so many teams can boss the smaller ones.
Look; we are adults. No Bundesliga fan here says that the PL is shit.
You just can get very annoyed with some posters here who still act as if we live in 2008, not 2014.
The Bundesliga overall on a similar quality level as the PL. We can talk about the best clubs but Arsenal,Liverpool and in recent years United werent soo great.
Dortmund is a top club with big money who struggles in the league this season. Happens.
Both leagues are great and growing. And if some here want to talk down the league of the world champions with big clubs and growing TV money its their thing.
We know what the reality is.
Lets enjoy both shows.