To be fair he had another CL season with a perfect group stage, winning every match.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Votes can now be changed
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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The only time we seen a glimpse of ETH's supposed potential in Europe was that tie vs Barca. That seems a long while away now.
I mentioned Frank because he was also a very succesful Ajax manager, not because he is dutch.
He won 4 consecutive league titles there. First manager to pull that off. Very impressive stuff.
Did not help him one bit when he moved to Inter, did not work out at all and was sacked about 3 months after joining.
Did not help him at Palace either, and was kicked out even quicker from there.
Followed by...?
I mean Frank was shit in England from the getgo. Ten Hag had one very good year and one very bad year here so far. It's not exactly comparable in that regard.
First year was ok from ETH - let’s not go overboard. It was no better than Ole’s last full season for example and I don’t rate him as a top coach.
Very good might be a stretch imo. And he obviously had a much better squad to work with as well, compared to Frank at Palace. But we can agree to disagree on that.
That was actually interesting from The Athletic that Ruud & Hake lead the general training then Erik does the pure match tactics training.
I want him gone as much as anyone but Ten Hag did have a very good first season, not sure why we would deny that. Coming into a side no one thought would get top 4 and getting 75 points and a trophy (and an FA Cup final plus the performance against Barca in the Europa).
Im not going overboard. He took a squad in free fall with no DoF or global scouts for support in the window, a dohbke digit exodus in squad personnel and finished 3rd with a cup. That's better than OK.
Nah year 1 was very good.
Think thats pretty standard to be honest
It was good, nothing more nothing less. Very good for Utd has to involve winning one of the League or CL imo.
Exiting in R16 against Benfica. But the group stage included Marco Rose's Dortmund and especially Ruben Amorim's Sporting.
I mean it in the context of the expectation for that season. We were not favourites for a top 4 finish and he cruised into it whilst getting a cup. That's very good for me for a debut season in the role.
I always enjoy it when threads dissolve into people arguing the very important distinction between "okay", "good" and "very good"
Sure, but he was also hailed in the Netherlands as a great coach that played spectacular football, and he did do well in his final CL season as well (for a Dutch club). And if a good CL run can be lucky, then it's equally unlucky and not fully on him that Ajax went out against Benfica (I think it was) that year while clearly being the better time.
But that's not all that interesting as an argument. My point was mostly that he set up Ajax superbly and isn't even managing something coherent now on many occasions. It just doesn't make sense.
(That's also where the De Boer comparisons are unhelpful. Yes, De Boer won many titles, but he was never considered a great coach in the Netherlands: his Ajax was boring (if effective) in the league and toothless in Europe. But Ten Hag was seen as the next big thing. The comparison is based on titles alone, same as Ranieri, which isn't very interesting.)
Yeah, and that's where I understand the 'he can't cut it in the EPL arguments'. His midfield has been making no sense and he might continue to underestimate how it never will. Then one could defend him by saying he was dealing with a disjointed squad (in terms of skill/tactics profiles), but there are clearly better ways to deal with that than a Frankenstein approach. So yeah, that's where you could say he might be too one-dimensional in his thinking and not in the right job (league + club) at United.
That might be another factor, but you'd have to assume that Ajax players are somehow much more intelligent, which seems unlikely to me. Although I suppose you could say more of them come from a background where they already played football like Ten Hag's at Ajax.
Anyway, I can keep going against individual arguments, but the truth of the matter is that it isn't working out for Ten Hag. So probably @stevoc was right: it's a combination of bits and pieces of all of the above that come together to form a disfunctional whole.
Which I think was a pretty dominant display that they would have normally been expected to win. (The Benfica matches, I mean.)
Ajax played good football. His tactics were good back then, be it against big teams in the CL or against domestic rivals. He earned his opportunity to manage United based on what he did in those years.
Key players were sold every year, so readjusting was not that easy. Less success afterwards, but still good football.
Ajax fell apart after he left. This time us buying key players didn't help, but the way Ajax unraveled was strange.
I saw his last game in the cup final against PSV and despite losing, Ajax looked good. The players were weak but the team was decent. They had a plan and all that.
I cannot understand why we only had moments of that during his reign. We rarely looked good for 90 minutes since he took over.
A team like Brighton performs better with players that are worse than ours. Our current squad is pretty good, so it makes no sense that we are where we are.
Today the relationship feels damaged beyond repair, poisonous even. That didn't happen overnight either. He had a lot of credit starting here, I remember the excitement in the first months, myself included.
I can't see things turning around for him. As idiotic as that sounds, it needs to be said: it seems like he forgot how to do what he used to do.
His players were sold, it doesn't come as a suprise that he couldn't replicate previous results. The football was generally good. That didn't happen with us on a regular basis.
It does have to be remembered that at Ajax he joined a team that was already well-drilled in possession football and controlling the play (and historically has always played that way), and he actually made them more direct and quicker on the attack than what they traditionally were.
Maybe it was a case of their strengths complimenting each other, where he was able to put a few more building blocks on top of that base level to reach a higher level than they had previously. However if that base isn't already there he's not capable of building it himself.
Yeah, exactly. I can get why Ajax crumbled after: their DoOFs did terrible business and Ten Hay's successor just wasn't Ajax quality, especially under the chaotic circumstances of their failed squad rebuild. But if anything, that further emphasizes what a good job Ten Hag did there.
Maybe overthinking things and, currently, a certain level of panic and lack of confidence (Ten Hag himself, I mean) are other factors, among what was discussed above.
Yeah, that's possible too. He was basically inheriting Bosz's team, I think.
There's nothing idiotic about that whatsoever. I'd say 90% of the fan base who aren't delusional or trolling feel the exact same way.
I wouldn't say he cruised, we were already starting to stumble under him at the end of that season, and teams below us made serious ground considering how far we were ahead at one point.
Yep, it seems as if we are all in acceptance and just hoping we get a few results. Dont think many believe he will do anything of note.
It probably will be like last season, he wins enough games to stay in the job. Our best run under him is 4 wins in a row, our worst is like 7/8 games with no win.
I think the season will continue as is.. we will win a few games here and there whilst getting outplayed and outscored against top 6 opponents.
We finished in 3rd place, 8 points clear off Liverpool in 5th.
We could have not won in our last 3 and still finished in the CL spot. I'd say that's cruised into it, or a comfortable finish or whatever.
I think the 'idiotic' part isn't about that it's clearly not working out (everyone agrees), but rather that it seems like Ten Hag has forgotten the things he did well previously.
First of all, I don't think these are the big names and teams you make them out to be.
Secondly, 6 wins out of 6 in the group stages is not as uncommon as its being made out. From a quick search, I can tell you that 8 teams have done it in the last 10 seasons. Plus for the best teams, if they are guaranteed to finish first after 4 or 5 games, it's natural to play weakened teams in the last game or two and not worry about a perfect group stage record when the real business happens after that. Hell, Ajax themselves would've enjoyed the run to the semis far more than this 6 in 6 record that is only every cited when discussing ETH. No other manager who's done the same needs this made up trophy.
No-one's giving him a trophy, we're just saying his subsequent CL adventures weren't as crappy as some were claiming.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Ten Hag also started rotating once the next round was in the bag. And 10 seasons would have given 80 groups, so if only 8 teams managed 6 wins, it's still fairly rare.
But again, the point isn't that this amazing stuff, just that his CL performances weren't all poor outside that one run to the semis.
It's okay to maintain a minimal level of nuance when it comes to Ten Hag.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. At least, when I say his subsequent CL adventures were crappy, I'm referring to the knockout stages besides that one miracle season. I don't care about the group stages besides progressing.
Getting knocked out to Benfica in the first knockout round is poor imo. Same way an exit to Coventry would've been an embarrassment. No amount of nuances from knocking out Liverpool before that would've mattered.
Yep some of us could see the signs were there that we were lucky to be finishing 4th that season. Liverpool were looking levels above us by the end of the season and continued it into the next, we were going in the opposite direction.
I just don’t see what championing and hyping up his first season does when you see where he’s ultimately led us? It wasn’t a springboard to better, it was the peak, and maybe it would be an impressive peak for a lesser side, but surely it’s pretty underwhelming and disappointing overall.
Ah okay, makes sense.
Ten hag made some tactical changes vs Brentford game that made us more solid on possession and reduce the risk if we get countered.
When we tried to play from the back vs brentford, Martinez stays wide as left back, while Onana became centre back, his RCB (de Ligt) became right back, his LCB (Evans) stays as LCB, and Dalot pushes forward with two of our midfielders provide options in the middle. Previously, what he usually does is RCB and LCB stay where they are, one full back pushes forward, while the other full back inverted to midfield playing next to DM. The difference is that he added more passing options and bodies during the build up play. It improves our build up play because we have more option means reduces the risk of giving the ball away and reduces the risk of being vulnerable when being counter.
When the ball is on opposition final third, we had structure of 3 at the back. Martinez became the LCB, Evans became CB, while de Ligt became RCB. Previously, what he usually does is he only leaves 2 CB while everyone push forward. The difference is that he added more player at the back to reduce the risk of being vulnerable when being counter.
I like the changes he made, and if he maintains the same structure for the next games not just for one or two games that means he’s not a stubborn manager and willing to change and adapt.
When we tried to play from the back vs brentford, Martinez stays wide as left back, while Onana became centre back, his RCB (de Ligt) became right back, his LCB (Evans) stays as LCB, and Dalot pushes forward with two of our midfielders provide options in the middle. Previously, what he usually does is RCB and LCB stay where they are, one full back pushes forward, while the other full back inverted to midfield playing next to DM. The difference is that he added more passing options and bodies during the build up play. It improves our build up play because we have more option means reduces the risk of giving the ball away and reduces the risk of being vulnerable when being counter.
When the ball is on opposition final third, we had structure of 3 at the back. Martinez became the LCB, Evans became CB, while de Ligt became RCB. Previously, what he usually does is he only leaves 2 CB while everyone push forward. The difference is that he added more player at the back to reduce the risk of being vulnerable when being counter.
I like the changes he made, and if he maintains the same structure for the next games not just for one or two games that means he’s not a stubborn manager and willing to change and adapt.
Just means that he is extremely slow to adapt and stubborn. Fans were practically telling him last season where he was going wrong.
Anyway let’s see if he consistently does it
I'm glad people are acknowledging ten hags positive tactical adjustments in a few games this season, hopefully that means they can acknowledge his negative or lack of tactical adjustments in the previous 12 months+ that's got us in this mess and stop blaming the players, injuries, structure, hole in the roof etc
This still bothers me tbh. Two cups is a fact, but it really sounds like he feels that the cups are valued highly among the United fan base. To me it sounds really strange to use the word "trophy" about a cup unless it's a part of a double.
Would the charity shield count too?
“Listen, we won, the last two years, behind Manchester City, the most trophies in English football, so we performed already the last two seasons,” the Dutchman said. “And listen to me, that is the reality, they are the facts.”
Would the charity shield count too?
“Listen, we won, the last two years, behind Manchester City, the most trophies in English football, so we performed already the last two seasons,” the Dutchman said. “And listen to me, that is the reality, they are the facts.”
What? This doesn’t make any sense to me.
It is definitely and purely subjective, but I would never use the word "trophy" about a cup unless it's the CL or if the team wins the PL.
Especially not for United.
So if EtH for fame gets the label as "someone who guarantees trophies" then I'd never think about the cups that we used to call the "Mickey Mouse Cup".
Especially not for United.
So if EtH for fame gets the label as "someone who guarantees trophies" then I'd never think about the cups that we used to call the "Mickey Mouse Cup".
A cup is a trophy, so I don’t see that there is any ground to challenge that factual statement by ETH. I agree though that it falls to acknowledge the fact that all trophies are not equal. We could win the League Cup every year but if we also finished 8th each season then that would rightly be seen as a disaster.
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