No of course not.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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See, I agree with 95% of what you're saying. I also have sympathy with them and I can understand the reasons behind why they voted to leave. But it definitely does make them idiots, because they're fecking over the whole country with their vote.
Not if they understand it might make things worse for the whole country, including them, in the short term, but they believe it will - or might - make things better, especially for them, in the longer term.
If things had carried on exactly as they were before things might be better for the country as a whole but they would still be left behind, their communities would still be completely forgotten, people would have to move to cities in order to have any opportunities.
With Brexit, maybe things get worse for the country as a whole and maybe for that reason things get worse for them in the short term. But in facing up to the problems of Brexit, maybe things change for small towns. I dont think it will happen, by the way, but this is far more debatable, far less predictable, than the immediate fallout and chaos, which is pretty much a certainty as this point. There is at least a chance.
If your circumstances are shit you might as well vote for chaos, because after things have been shaken up there is a chance they will settle again in a way that is more favourable for you. I dont think that is stupid at all.
You called Shermin an idiot. Are you outing yourself as an idiot for agreeing with her?
I've made this argument here previously regarding some of the motivation behind the leave vote. I'd also agree with you that it's mistaken. But you'll struggle to get beyond the "idiot" response stage as we've seen here.
It's nice to be corrected and now know that we don't have any idiots in the country. I always thought a segment of society must be ill informed given the low level of political participation and high readership of the rag papers but no they're not stupid they're just wilfull dickheads out to get something they want.
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It's an overused term by remainers that has lost impact by using it in every post. It does go to show what a self righteous bunch they are.
Who's saying "we don't have any idiots in the country"? What an odd claim. I thought The Guardian piece was interesting because the views of a remainer had been affected by first hand experience of life in a largely leave voting town. She was immediately branded an idiot by you and someone else.
People wilfully "out to get something they want" I presume is a euphemism for voting for something you yourself don't want. When you vote do you vote for things you don't want?
Just checking, are the people using the word "idiot" being self-righteous, but the people saying they're willing to inflict pain on their own country to leave the EU no matter the cost are not?
I’d go with ‘spectacularly ill informed’ rather than ‘idiots’.
I live in London, but have had many conversations with leave voters in South Wales (where my folks live) and the Home Counties (where I grew up and still have many friends). What comes across to me in almost all these conversations is how nearly every leave voter has a fundamental misunderstanding of some of the key facts. They typically do not understand the differences between the customs union and the single market; or the structure of the EU including the parliament and commission; or what the WTO is and isn’t; the content of the Good Friday agreement, or indeed anything about Northern Irish politics at all; the content and implications of the Withdrawal Agreement; the realities of modern free trade agreements and multilateral politics etc
But most fundamentally, they do not even understand conceptually what they want from a nation state in the 21st century.
My conclusion is the vast majority of people voted emotionally from a position of staggering ignorance. This is arguably true of remain voters as well, though from my experience they do seem significantly better informed on the key issues, in general.
I live in London, but have had many conversations with leave voters in South Wales (where my folks live) and the Home Counties (where I grew up and still have many friends). What comes across to me in almost all these conversations is how nearly every leave voter has a fundamental misunderstanding of some of the key facts. They typically do not understand the differences between the customs union and the single market; or the structure of the EU including the parliament and commission; or what the WTO is and isn’t; the content of the Good Friday agreement, or indeed anything about Northern Irish politics at all; the content and implications of the Withdrawal Agreement; the realities of modern free trade agreements and multilateral politics etc
But most fundamentally, they do not even understand conceptually what they want from a nation state in the 21st century.
My conclusion is the vast majority of people voted emotionally from a position of staggering ignorance. This is arguably true of remain voters as well, though from my experience they do seem significantly better informed on the key issues, in general.
Yes, you can imagine its almost like a return to the medieval times, the Feudal Lords and their favoured henchmen, mercenaries and surfs living inside the castles, (now the major cities) the rest of the population, scrapping a living off the land.... or engaging in highway robbery, County lines drug dealing, etc.! When will Robin Hood return?
Of the several hundred people I know who voted leave, none of them are poor, none of them are out of work, none of them live in a deprived area and none of them live in a northern town.
Above all they're all highly intelligent and love foreigners because there are no bigots or idiots in the country.
Above all they're all highly intelligent and love foreigners because there are no bigots or idiots in the country.
Great thread for anyone - like me - who gets confused about the whole backstop SNAFU.
As was said above, nobody is saying there are no bigots or idiots in the country. Just that voting Leave doesnt necessarily make you either of those things.
This I would agree with. It's fanciful to suggest that somehow the remain vote en bloc had some innate understanding of the GFA or the WTO (for example) when they went to the ballot box. Most of the noise you heard then was about ease of working and holidaying around Europe and petty bickering about passports. Two years on the complexities are far more understood of course but people, still largely to my mind, are not overly interested in what's best for the country but in fact what's best for their pocket. On the remain side in particular the debate rarely strays beyond the economics
I thought this short film about one of those small towns captured the hopelessness of life pretty well.
Maybe they could let us know why they did because cutting off your arm when your finger is itching doesn't seem to be the most sensible thing to do.
What could be best for the country but not best for the pocket of the people who voted?
Robin Hood has returned. Jacob Rees Mogg and his band of Merry Men. Johnson is Little John.
They are, it cannot be denied by any reasonable person, of the people. As evidenced by JRM's obsession with the cost of trainers.
True, that's spot on; the remain lot seem to only talk about economics, where as most of the leaving brigade talk about taking back control. No wonder there is no coming together, not only are both sides not on the same page, they are not even reading the same book!
You said it better that I ever could. I was going to post about emotional response and ill information, from the outside you can understand how they ended up voting to leave but this has nothing to do with actual intelligent and informed reasoning. Like in a lot of countries the UK has an issue with wealth redistribution but also job redistribution from a geographical standpoint which leads to the reality where London represents 20% of the UK GDP, in my opinion that's where things need to change, there needs to be policies that discourage companies to conglomerate in the capital. Jobs, because they exist, need to go to worker a little bit more, they need to be where workers can afford respectable housing.
"If someone asked me to be in a porn film I would do it for free."
Im sure there are plenty of people who would agree with that outside Maesteg.
The jobs are needed where the industry once was. The speed of deindustrialisation and the lack of investment has seen entire communities collapse. Places are falling apart and those places form a massive part of the Brexit vote. It's been going on for decades.
I don't agree with her. I have sympathy for people who feel they've been left behind and who feel they live in places without any prospects. I don't have any sympathy for people who then decide the best thing for them to do is to vote leave.
Hah, hah! Very true.
Wasn't Robin Hood supposed to be of 'noble blood' (Son of the Earl of Locksley?) according to the legend.... Born with the silver spoon etc. just like Jacob! Can't see JRM giving anything back to the poor though!
I still don't know what point you're trying to get to, you seemingly took offence at a bigot being labelled as such and took offence at the guardian for not focusing on some rare scenario despite the guardian constantly reporting the plight of these deprived areas.
You might find it more interesting but it's not a new take for most Labour voters in here and if the anger is going to be directed anywhere its towards the bigots and the ignorant especially when they're championing no deal which is a newer perspective than poverty.
Also I called her an idiot because it shouldn't take going to a place of hardship to understand some people live in hardship it's ignorant and simple minded.
No-one had mentioned WTO until the ERG tried to con everyone by pretending they understood what it meant. That was a long time after the referendum.
People did understand that having open fluid borders meant that there would be no interruptions to the supply of food, parts for manufacturing, travel, services, banking and the list goes on.
I'm really interested to know what is best for the country that is nothing to do with economics and what the people supposedly voted for out of desperation which wasn't connected to economics.
Things won't get better for the smaller towns under a Tory government. Being out of the EU and also having a Tory government means they're just gonna get screwed even more. Surely the last 10 years of austerity is enough to show them that?
I agree but it's not exactly a lack of investment that is the core issue. The main issue is that our politicians, because we have the same issue in France, are incompetent. They don't care about spatial planning, they don't care about the basics of their roles and are in complete dereliction of duty, everything they do is part of their plan to stay in power while doing as little as possible.
She's not said that. Yet you call her an idiot?
Poor people voting Tory has always struck me as pretty idiotic TBH.
But the bottom line is I am uncomfortable calling groups of people who take a different view to myself idiots. Individually, if I interact with people and find them to be idiots, that is a different thing. Of course there are idiots out there. But I have to make allowances for people who are not idiots, but for whatever reason see things differently to me.
I didn't say she said that
It's kind of what she said. She said that she was sympathetic to the idea of leaving because there is a problem with immigration, problem that she linked to fewer jobs and lower pay up North.
I haven't taken offence at anything. I thought the The Guardian slant (and your slant on theirs) missed the more interesting story which was that of Shermin ie avowedly pro Remain but the realities of hardship softening her stance. And yes it is difficult to truly understand if you don't experience it first hand as opposed to just reading about it in The Guardian like some do.
Interesting last sentence.
But that's the point. Someone isn't an idiot because they have a different opinion to yourself or that they voted differently.
They are an idiot if what they did or voted for caused themselves more problems instead of improving their lot. There is a distinction.
Well said.
Cheers, it's been quite confusing for outsiders who take a passing interest in this. Sounds like a right mess.
Ill just be repeating myself but the point I was trying to make earlier is that we dont know for sure that in the longer term voting Brexit wont improve their lot. What we do know for sure is that the status quo wasnt working for them, so voting Remain wasnt going to do anything for them. For at least some people - though not the highly intelligent and employed Brexiters you know - this was a vote to shake things up. And yes, maybe in the short term there will be a fallout, but there is at least a chance that once we ride that out, things will be better for them.
Yes. Living there has given her an insight into local community issues. She wasn't a leave voter and hasn't stated that she now would be. This is a reasonable position which doesn't go down well in an overwhelmingly pro remain thread that has little to no sympathy for the leave vote and more often than not rejects it with terms of abuse. She's now "simple minded" for being impacted by the realities of hardship and poverty that she hadn't previously encountered.
I find her story interesting as I do those who voted to leave but would now vote to remain given the chance. It's a very polarised and emotional debate and those that gain a better understanding of the other's position are thin on the ground. It's the only way forward though.