Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Adebesi said:
The EU being worse off and in a state of paralysis because it needs to take decisions quickly and cant kick the can down the road.

The UK being better off because it CAN take decisions, because it is sovereign and doesnt have to reach agreement with other countries in completely different situations.

Going back to posts above, also huge sympathy for people like @Honest John. But in response to the @Smores post he was responding to, I wouldnt blame the protest voter or the ignorant, I would 100% blame the dickheads who thought this question should be settled by a plebiscite. Because at the end of the day there are ignorant people out there, what are they going to do, say, Id better sit this one out, Im too much of an idiot to vote? Once this was put to the vote people were going to vote according to their own personal priorities and mindset, that is their prerogative. It is the fault of the politicians who knew these people existed but gave them a say in it anyway.
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But this has nothing to do with being better than today, this has nothing to do with making struggling people lives better than they have been before Brexit. Surely you can see the issue, you are not talking about things being better in the UK for british people but things being worse outside of it.

You talked about a failure of imagination but there is nothing imaginative about imagining the worst. Things could be worse for everyone for a lot of reasons what people are arguing is about how things could be better than today for people that are struggling today.
 
Anybody else getting their Brexit news from memes rather than face the horrors of reality?



:lol:
 
Smores said:
Do you think these people were aware that Brexit may negatively affect the lives of others? were they ignorant to this?

If they were ignorant to the potential harm then sure they couldn't help themselves but if they knew how can you defend them?

"My lives shit already so i don't care what happens to you" is not an attitude you'd tolerate in any other situation
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Its democracy. Everyone gets a vote, that doesnt come with strings attached in terms of how you are meant to use that vote, what factors you are meant to consider, how much knowledge you are meant to have. There is no altruism or intelligence test.

You could have a reasonable debate as to whether there should be. Maybe social media has broken democracy and it needs to be reformed, that is an interesting discussion. Ive been reading about how the whole concept of free will has been called into question by how much power people now have to influence opinions with targetted advertising etc. If free will doesnt exist anymore, or is easily manipulated, the whole concept of liberalism and liberal democracy starts to break down.

If it was only a minority saying "My life's shit already so i don't care what happens to you" it wouldnt matter because they would be outvoted. But apparently a lot of people felt that way.

As I said, I blame the people who put this to the vote, not the voters. The majority of MPs knew this was a bad idea, both in terms of the complexity of the question being asked and the damage that the wrong answer would cause.
 
Adebesi said:
Its amazing the amount of pushback you get when taking the position "voting Leave doesnt necessarily make you an idiot."
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To be fair, you're being devil's advocate with an argument that isn't even strong enough to convince yourself, never mind other people.

Adebesi said:
The way I see it, if I was a betting man, I would bet things will be worse outside the EU over every time horizon.
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It's a fair point that calling poor/desperate people "idiots" is unkind but feelings are running strong here, so you can expect a few insults to be thrown back and forth. When the ring-leaders of the Leave campaign are so obviously mendacious and/or stupid it's hard not to tar the people who voted for them with the same brush.
 
Smores said:
Hunt been sent out to test reception and wording this morning. Wouldn't be shocked if you hear more tories start to use the phrase 'extra time' rather than extension.

Or he's an idiot hard to tell (if I'm allowed to use the word idiot)
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No.10 has already distanced itself from Hunts comment. You could be right about testing the water, but it seems far too sensible.
 
JPRouve said:
But this has nothing to do with being better than today, this has nothing to do with making struggling people lives better than they have been before Brexit. Surely you can see the issue, you are not talking about things being better in the UK for british people but things being worse outside of it.

You talked about a failure of imagination but there is nothing imaginative about imagining the worst. Things could be worse for everyone for a lot of reasons what people are arguing is about how things could be better than today for people that are struggling today.
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OK. Leave the EU, financial crisis ensues creating huge surge in unemployment, government responds by implementing countrywide Universal Basic Income.
 
Adebesi said:
OK. Leave the EU, financial crisis ensues creating huge surge in unemployment, government responds by implementing countrywide Universal Basic Income.
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Does remaining within the EU put up any barriers to a government implementing UBI?

Genuine (and important) question, as I'm starting to think UBI is the only way we fend of the inequality apocalypse.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
To be fair, you're being devil's advocate with an argument that isn't even strong enough to convince yourself, never mind other people.



It's a fair point that calling poor/desperate people "idiots" is unkind but feelings are running strong here, so you can expect a few insults to be thrown back and forth. When the ring-leaders of the Leave campaign are so obviously mendacious and/or stupid it's hard not to tar the people who voted for them with the same brush.
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The argument is too nuanced to have satisfactorily on here I think. I would love to have this conversation with a few of the people in this thread in person, over a pint.

There is an element of Devil's Advocate here, for sure - and it is definitely exhausting having to represent a point of view I dont actually hold myself. But I am not playing DA with the underlying point - that Leavers are not by definition stupid. I am not arguing that it is mean to say it, I am arguing that it is actually not true.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Does remaining within the EU put up any barriers to a government implementing UBI?

Genuine (and important) question, as I'm starting to think UBI is the only way we fend of the inequality apocalypse.
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We are working on it in France. So, no remaining in the EU isn't a barrier. Finland are testing it too.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Does remaining within the EU put up any barriers to a government implementing UBI?

Genuine (and important) question, as I'm starting to think UBI is the only way we fend of the inequality apocalypse.
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I dont know. I dont think so. But maybe a crisis is needed to force the issue.

Presumably a transition to UBI would be simpler with more control at the borders too.
 
golden_blunder said:
If anyone is interested, here’s the GFA

https://peacemaker.un.org/uk-ireland-good-friday98

I may have missed it but it doesn’t actually refer to a physical border, just talks about the need for British security installations to be removed and removal of British troops

It kinda relies on the integrity of the politicians..
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This has been talked of on the BBC today. Many would obviously have known it before, but it's amazing how late in the day it's come into public prominence.

Anyhow, what do you think of this, Ireland and Britain create a joint border force working to the instructions of a joint committee made up from Ireland, Britain and the EU, with the overall commander of the force and the majority, if not all, of it's staff Irish, as a gesture of goodwill from the Brits.

Could the Republicans live with a border if it were Irish police manning it? Would the Loyalists accept that as a border as at least better than one in the Irish sea? I get it would still be disruptive to travel, but if the alternative is a hard border then that would be even more disruptive.
 
711 said:
This has been talked of on the BBC today. Many would obviously have known it before, but it's amazing how late in the day it's come into public prominence.

Anyhow, what do you think of this, Ireland and Britain create a joint border force working to the instructions of a joint committee made up from Ireland, Britain and the EU, with the overall commander of the force and the majority, if not all, of it's staff Irish, as a gesture of goodwill from the Brits.

Could the Republicans live with a border if it were Irish police manning it? Would the Loyalists accept that as a border as at least better than one in the Irish sea? I get it would still be disruptive to travel, but if the alternative is a hard border then that would be even more disruptive.
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I genuinely don’t know anymore, it makes my head hurt. All I can think is that ANY troops on the border at all will become targets for paramilitaries
 
golden_blunder said:
I genuinely don’t know anymore, it makes my head hurt. All I can think is that ANY troops on the border at all will become targets for paramilitaries
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And that's the issue. The GFA allows both Irish sides to take pretty much any decision as long as it's compatible with a peaceful society. I guess that it's the most important term used in the agreement, peaceful society.
 
711 said:
This has been talked of on the BBC today. Many would obviously have known it before, but it's amazing how late in the day it's come into public prominence.

Anyhow, what do you think of this, Ireland and Britain create a joint border force working to the instructions of a joint committee made up from Ireland, Britain and the EU, with the overall commander of the force and the majority, if not all, of it's staff Irish, as a gesture of goodwill from the Brits.

Could the Republicans live with a border if it were Irish police manning it? Would the Loyalists accept that as a border as at least better than one in the Irish sea? I get it would still be disruptive to travel, but if the alternative is a hard border then that would be even more disruptive.
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In short, no. There would also be zero will from either Irish politicians or the Irish police themselves to police a border they fundamentally do not want.
 
Adebesi said:
The argument is too nuanced to have satisfactorily on here I think. I would love to have this conversation with a few of the people in this thread in person, over a pint.

There is an element of Devil's Advocate here, for sure - and it is definitely exhausting having to represent a point of view I dont actually hold myself. But I am not playing DA with the underlying point - that Leavers are not by definition stupid. I am not arguing that it is mean to say it, I am arguing that it is actually not true.
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The truth is the things you are arguing aren't based on facts, history or real knowledge or backing. The things you are really arguing are based on hope, hope and hope which is what the whole leave campaign is based on. If your whole thought process is based on hope, luck or full on disasters with no real base then really you are an "idiot".
 
mancan92 said:
The truth is the things you are arguing aren't based on facts, history or real knowledge or backing. The things you are really arguing are based on hope, hope and hope which is what the whole leave campaign is based on. If your whole thought process is based on hope, luck or full on disasters with no real base then really you are an "idiot".
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If your circumstances are shit and you don't see anyone representing your views or offering solutions you believe in I'd argue voting with hope is all you have.
 
golden_blunder said:
If anyone is interested, here’s the GFA

https://peacemaker.un.org/uk-ireland-good-friday98

I may have missed it but it doesn’t actually refer to a physical border, just talks about the need for British security installations to be removed and removal of British troops

It kinda relies on the integrity of the politicians..
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MikeUpNorth said:
Technically, the GFA does not rule out a hard border. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46988529

In reality, all hell would break loose.
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711 said:
This has been talked of on the BBC today. Many would obviously have known it before, but it's amazing how late in the day it's come into public prominence.

Anyhow, what do you think of this, Ireland and Britain create a joint border force working to the instructions of a joint committee made up from Ireland, Britain and the EU, with the overall commander of the force and the majority, if not all, of it's staff Irish, as a gesture of goodwill from the Brits.

Could the Republicans live with a border if it were Irish police manning it? Would the Loyalists accept that as a border as at least better than one in the Irish sea? I get it would still be disruptive to travel, but if the alternative is a hard border then that would be even more disruptive.
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Not in a million years. An Irish politician will never OK a border on our island.
 
cyberman said:
Not in a million years. An Irish politician will never OK a border on our island.
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What I was wondering today was, if the UK leaves with no deal, does that put Ireland on a collision course with Brussels? Presumably Brussels would insist they implement customs and immigration controls as required by EU law, and the Irish government would be under huge domestic pressure to avoid a visible border?
 
Red Viking said:
It is absolutely madness to even contemplate the idea that the UK will ever be as good as it is now outside all the trading blocks around the world as it is being economically isolated. It is beyond being naive to even think it is something that could happen. UK will be trading on worse terms compared to every other developed country and that will never end up being better short or long term.
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Exactly. I'm confused at what I'm reading from some posters tbh...
 
Trying to boil the issue down to its most basic terms, is this a fair summary?

Here are three statements from the British wish list:
a) no hard border in Northern Ireland
b) no border in the Irish Sea
c) an independent British trade policy

You can have any two of these, but not all three.

a+b = UK-wide Customs Union (basically the backstop)

a+c = NI remains in EU customs union. The rest of the UK is free to strike trade deals.

b+c = Hard Brexit (leave with no deal)

a+b+c = IMPOSSIBLE
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Trying to boil the issue down to its most basic terms, is this a fair summary?

Here are three statements from the British wish list:
a) no hard border in Northern Ireland
b) no border in the Irish Sea
c) an independent British trade policy

You can have any two of these, but not all three.

a+b = UK-wide Customs Union (basically the backstop)

a+c = NI remains in EU customs union. The rest of the UK is free to strike trade deals.

b+c = Hard Brexit (leave with no deal)

a+b+c = IMPOSSIBLE
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Yes, at least for so long as the government relies on DUP votes. Even without the DUP, I think giving N Ireland that kind of half in/half out status in your option b would have Scotland gettting ready for Indy Ref 2.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Trying to boil the issue down to its most basic terms, is this a fair summary?

Here are three statements from the British wish list:
a) no hard border in Northern Ireland
b) no border in the Irish Sea
c) an independent British trade policy

You can have any two of these, but not all three.

a+b = UK-wide Customs Union (basically the backstop)

a+c = NI remains in EU customs union. The rest of the UK is free to strike trade deals.

b+c = Hard Brexit (leave with no deal)

a+b+c = IMPOSSIBLE
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That seems correct. Can we send you to parliament?
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Trying to boil the issue down to its most basic terms, is this a fair summary?

Here are three statements from the British wish list:
a) no hard border in Northern Ireland
b) no border in the Irish Sea
c) an independent British trade policy

You can have any two of these, but not all three.

a+b = UK-wide Customs Union (basically the backstop)

a+c = NI remains in EU customs union. The rest of the UK is free to strike trade deals.

b+c = Hard Brexit (leave with no deal)

a+b+c = IMPOSSIBLE
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Yes , the problem is that not a single MP in the UK parliament appears to understand this.

The EU cannot understand why the British parliament are so stupid.
 
Adebesi said:
Me, for example?

Just ignore everything I said today. There is absolutely no justification for voting Brexit unless you are stupid or racist.
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Yes you, but not only you. Just look at the knots your tying yourself up in trying to make the point? If you stuck to stating that it's mean (and a generalisation) to call them all idiots then I'd have agreed with you, because that's true. The arguements you then proceeded to make attempting to play devil's advocate though, well they just highlighted idiotic/ignorant/spiteful mindsets, viewpoints, positions...

So it's left me bewildered because I can't see how you can believe what you are saying... Right there you use the word justification, not all justifications are equal or even valid.

As for positing that the politicians that misled them, and allowed this to happen, are the only people that we should blame.... Sorry but no. I blame all of them, they don't get to absolve themselves of blame.

There would have been people in those same communities, and in similar positions, that disagreed with them and voted to remain. I'm sure they won't see it the way you think they should when their situations get worse.

Bare in mind I'm confused because you're one of a few poster that respect on here so don't take it to heart...
 
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MikeUpNorth said:
What I was wondering today was, if the UK leaves with no deal, does that put Ireland on a collision course with Brussels? Presumably Brussels would insist they implement customs and immigration controls as required by EU law, and the Irish government would be under huge domestic pressure to avoid a visible border?
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Despite currently downplaying the prospect of a hard border domestically, realistically the Irish government know some sort of border would have to return in a no deal scenario, even if they try to minimise the impact as much as they can. There wouldn't be any collision course over that basic principle as they simply have legal obligations to meet in that scenario.

However, they would likely intend for it to be a temporary border by insisting that the EU make resolution of the border issue a precondition for any EU-UK trade relationship after the no deal exit. Which would leave the UK faced with essentially having to accept similar terms regarding the border as currently outlined in the WA. I think the Irish government fundamentally believe the border issue will be resolved one way or another, it's just a matter of how much damage is done before then.

An Irish government would certainly face domestic pressure as a result of even a temporary border being erected but the reality is that the vast majority of the blame within Ireland would be directed towards the UK in a no deal scenario. Fine Gael would be hurt politically but not as much as if they were to, say, concede on the backstop issue as in that scenario they would be open to allegations of selling out the GFA themselves.
 
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Adebesi said:
Me, for example?

Just ignore everything I said today. There is absolutely no justification for voting Brexit unless you are stupid or racist.
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The only thing that makes it stupid is the lack of plan, there isn't even a basic and realisitc project offered by the politicians currently in place. That's where your scenario becomes problematic because you mentioned things that are already possible but not offered by the current political class, people vote for the same politicians but decide to leave an union that made the country richer and supported some of the poorest regions of the UK. Common sense simply left the building.
 
afrocentricity said:
Yes you, but not only you. Just look at the knots your tying yourself up in trying to make the point? If you stuck to stating that it's mean (and a generalisation) to call them all idiots then I'd have agreed with you, because that's true. The arguements you then proceeded to make attempting to play devil's advocate though, well they just highlighted idiotic/ignorant/spiteful mindsets, viewpoints, positions...

So it's left me bewildered because I can't see how you can believe what you are saying... Right there you use the word justification, not all justifications are equal or even valid.

As for positing that the politicians that misled them, and allowed this to happen, are the only people that we should blame.... Sorry but no. I blame all of them, they don't get to absolve themselves of blame.

There would have been people in those same communities, and in similar positions, that disagreed with them and voted to remain. I'm sure they won't see it the way you think they should when their situations get worse.

Bare in mind I'm confused because you're one of a few poster that respect on here so don't take it to heart...
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The politicians bit I don't think was me. Can't think what I said to do with that. Unless you point me to a specific post.

My only real point here is one. Not all those voters are stupid. That's it. They have their reasons. Some of them.

I'm tying myself in knots going further because whatever their reasons are, they aren't mine. I can't concinvingly represent their opinions because they aren't mine. But I believe there are legitimate, non foolish reasons to vote that way. I guess I have to leave it at that.
 
Adebesi said:
But I believe there are legitimate, non foolish reasons to vote that way. I guess I have to leave it at that.
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Nah fam, now you have to give a few of those reasons... You started this. Non foolish, non selfish, non cnutish.... Go!
 
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