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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


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And i'm guessing influence. There will be a lot of fine print to be sorted after the 29th of march (whichever way this goes) and they are positioning themselves. (Sorry, it was meant as a rhetorical question). They are also huge steel consumers so I'm not sure how much they'd really benefit from a lower pound (which also devalues all of their assets).

They say here they’ve enjoyed and small benefit from the fall of the pound after Brexit and that they buy raw materials in foreign currency.

Don’t get me wrong though, I’m sure it’s an ideological position for him as much as anything.

https://www.ft.com/content/293f643a-6708-11e7-9a66-93fb352ba1fe
 
It makes a lot of sense. Though it begs the question, are all the politicians tearing their hair out and endlessly talking to journalists about their various plans simply going through the motions? Are they playing along, despite secretly understanding the whole thing is a sham because Brexit is literally undeliverable at this point - regardless of whether people can agree on a plan? Or are they so wrapped up in their own arguments that they havent thought through these logistical problems?
 
It makes a lot of sense. Though it begs the question, are all the politicians tearing their hair out and endlessly talking to journalists about their various plans simply going through the motions? Are they playing along, despite secretly understanding the whole thing is a sham because Brexit is literally undeliverable at this point - regardless of whether people can agree on a plan? Or are they so wrapped up in their own arguments that they havent thought through these logistical problems?

I’m guessing the latter. There seems to be an unassumption that someone, somewhere will sort out the technical stuff in some way. They seem oblivious to the fact the buck is squarely on them and there really isn’t anyone else they can pass it to.
 
It makes a lot of sense. Though it begs the question, are all the politicians tearing their hair out and endlessly talking to journalists about their various plans simply going through the motions? Are they playing along, despite secretly understanding the whole thing is a sham because Brexit is literally undeliverable at this point - regardless of whether people can agree on a plan? Or are they so wrapped up in their own arguments that they havent thought through these logistical problems?

Though one would also have to criticise the media if that article is true - why on earth have none of the other highbrow or big newspapers drawn attention to it? Are they complicit too?
 
Airbus being very clear they could pull factories out of Britain in the event of no-deal Brexit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46984229

Believe me this is no idle threat. Airbus has absolutely no devine need to manufacture in the UK. It does it because the UK is a technically good and profitable place to operate in.

But, the Germans, French, Italian and Spanish would dearly love to take that wing design and manufacture work and have done for many years.

When Airbus says this, we should be worried and take the warning very seriously.
 
Though one would also have to criticise the media if that article is true - why on earth have none of the other highbrow or big newspapers drawn attention to it? Are they complicit too?
Cant help but feel there is a vital piece of that argument missing from that article, for this very reason. I know MSM has its own agenda and doesnt always report everything it should, or can misrepresent the facts. But I trust other publications more than The Mirror.
 
From David Jones, former Wales secretary..
Tom Enders has made threats such as this for some time. But he knows that a large proportion of his very loyal workforce in Broughton actually voted to leave the European Union ...

[Enders is] in an industry that is very fortunate in that there are no tariffs imposed on aircraft, and indeed on most aircraft components. So to that extent his industry does not have he problems of disruption that other industries might have.

Certainly, there might be some issue over border checks. But that is something that can be overcome, just as it is overcome at the moment for all those components that Airbus import from other parts of the world than the European Union.

Why would Airbus give a single shit what their UK employees voted for you dumb bastard?!?! As for the rest of this drivel, just another Tory claiming they know how to run a highly technical global business better than the people who actually run it..
 
Though one would also have to criticise the media if that article is true - why on earth have none of the other highbrow or big newspapers drawn attention to it? Are they complicit too?

Regardless of whether that article is right or not (I had a conversation with someone the other day who knows his beans who argued likewise; I find that the argument ignores the unprecedented incompetence that has got as us far as this stage), of course we should criticise the media.

They've been led a merry dance by Brexiteers for nigh on a decade and the majority have continually been either too thick, or too concerned about their career prospects to do anything about it. On most EU issues the majority of journalists have repeatedly come across as ill informed, and under skilled to deal with the (admittedly often complex) issues that Brexit has brought up.
 
It's incredibly disheartening to see how clueless everyone seems to be... Fecking shambles.
 
Regardless of whether that article is right or not (I had a conversation with someone the other day who knows his beans who argued likewise; I find that the argument ignores the unprecedented incompetence that has got as us far as this stage), of course we should criticise the media.

They've been led a merry dance by Brexiteers for nigh on a decade and the majority have continually been either too thick, or too concerned about their career prospects to do anything about it. On most EU issues the majority of journalists have repeatedly come across as ill informed, and under skilled to deal with the (admittedly often complex) issues that Brexit has brought up.
There's so many aspects to this though. For one thing, as much as I do it myself, we have to be careful talking about "the media" as if it was a coherent entity. The FT and The Economist are completely different animals to the Daily Mail and The Sun, which are different again from The Mirror, or the BBC, or ITN. Some of them have been led a merry dance, while others are sunk to the nuts in Brexit ideology themselves, being owned by the same people that funded the Leave campaign. Some journalists dont understand these complex issues, as you said, while others are trying to simplify it to make it digestible for their readers, who they know will scan it over their cornflakes, or on their tea breaks, and have no time, inclination or ability to understand the nuance involved.

And then you get into the philosophical question about the optimal relationship between the media and the market. Is journalism essentially the same as any other business, where you make a product and its up to people to vote with their feet and consume what they want? Or would you make a case, as I have made for football clubs for example, that this is not an area that should be left to the market - that the media has a kind of educational responsibility to report, over and above the entertainment value people get from their news? And if so, how is that even achieved?

Of course you regulate to ensure a certain level of accuracy, but there is a line at which reporting fact becomes editorialising - are journalists free to offer their opinions, if sincerely held? Reporters should not lie, but how to you control what is and is not reported - which seems to me to be the single most important way the media manipulates news coverage?

This is before you even get into the added problems from New Media, with echo chambers and outright fake news written by people who dont even pretend to be journalists.
 
The first sentence in that tweet reads like a parody account. Politics is truly beyond satire.
 
Don't panic though folks, our representatives are going to be working night and day to stop the country from crashing into disaster and.. oh..
At business questions in the Commons Valerie Vaz, the shadow leader of the Commons, asked if the February half-term recess was still going ahead. There have been repeated reports saying it will be abandoned, because MPs will need more time to pass Brexit legislation.

Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the Commons, said the half-term recess has not been cancelled - or, at least, not yet. She said the plan for the House to rise on Thursday 14 February and return on Monday 24 February “is and does remain the position”. But she said this would have to be confirmed by a Commons vote, meaning there is still time for the mini recess to be abandoned.
 
There's so many aspects to this though. For one thing, as much as I do it myself, we have to be careful talking about "the media" as if it was a coherent entity. The FT and The Economist are completely different animals to the Daily Mail and The Sun, which are different again from The Mirror, or the BBC, or ITN. Some of them have been led a merry dance, while others are sunk to the nuts in Brexit ideology themselves, being owned by the same people that funded the Leave campaign. Some journalists dont understand these complex issues, as you said, while others are trying to simplify it to make it digestible for their readers, who they know will scan it over their cornflakes, or on their tea breaks, and have no time, inclination or ability to understand the nuance involved.

And then you get into the philosophical question about the optimal relationship between the media and the market. Is journalism essentially the same as any other business, where you make a product and its up to people to vote with their feet and consume what they want? Or would you make a case, as I have made for football clubs for example, that this is not an area that should be left to the market - that the media has a kind of educational responsibility to report, over and above the entertainment value people get from their news? And if so, how is that even achieved?

Of course you regulate to ensure a certain level of accuracy, but there is a line at which reporting fact becomes editorialising - are journalists free to offer their opinions, if sincerely held? Reporters should not lie, but how to you control what is and is not reported - which seems to me to be the single most important way the media manipulates news coverage?

This is before you even get into the added problems from New Media, with echo chambers and outright fake news written by people who dont even pretend to be journalists.

You're right, in that I was excluding the likes of the Sun and the Mail, but I think it's a dangerous game to assume that Mail and the Sun journalists are expressing sincerely held beliefs. In fact, I think there's a fairly well strong argument that an awful lot of their staff writers are covered by my 'too concerned about their career' line.

I don't think your 'philosophical questions' are particularly difficult ones mind. We've seen what a deregulated (or self-regulated media) gets up to. There are valid concerns about how you ensure oversight of the media, and the Government's influence over the BBC editorial agenda is a good example of it, but the need for regulation is fairly unarguable.

Although a bigger problem is the privilege needed to get a job in the media. I'm sure there are very good journalists coming through, but when idiots like Dan Hodges get jobs (and even win awards) because of their parents opening doors for them you know it's fecked.
 
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I wish I could agree. But it's a bit like saying a car crash won't happen because the consequences will be terrible. IF tory MP's are aware of all this and have been playing this game for so long I wouldn't put it above them to just ignore it come 29th of March. They'd basically have to admit to talking bs for last 3 years if they didn't.
 
I wish I could agree. But it's a bit like saying a car crash won't happen because the consequences will be terrible. IF tory MP's are aware of all this and have been playing this game for so long I wouldn't put it above them to just ignore it come 29th of March. They'd basically have to admit to talking bs for last 3 years if they didn't.

They’re hardly likely to turn around and say they just didn’t go their job in time. They’ll just find a scapegoat instead.
 
They’re hardly likely to turn around and say they just didn’t go their job in time. They’ll just find a scapegoat instead.
Yeah, but a scapegoat for cancelling the mess or a scapegoat for the mess? I fear the second. (And still hope for the first).
 
I'm still amazed that people think politicians actually know what they are doing other than playing party politics.

They are given far too much credit.

Yep.

Real life politics is much more "The Thick Of It" and much less "House of Cards".
 
@NinjaFletch a conversation for another thread and another time I guess.

Maybe, but I think the media's inability (as a whole) to deal with the breakdown in competency amongst the political class is a pretty direct cause of where we are now. Sure there's always been Domesday cultists working for some big papers, but its the legitimisation the BBC gave the likes of UKIP from the early days which fanned the flames that led to Brexit.
 
Interesting in recent days to see people remember that a powerful Irish-American lobby exists across the Atlantic. Having all those Irish names in the last two US administrations may prove useful for the EU going forward:



 
Maybe, but I think the media's inability (as a whole) to deal with the breakdown in competency amongst the political class is a pretty direct cause of where we are now. Sure there's always been Domesday cultists working for some big papers, but its the legitimisation the BBC gave the likes of UKIP from the early days which fanned the flames that led to Brexit.
First I just have to insert the disclaimer that I think the causes of this mess are too numerous and complex and interrelated to summarise in a short post.

Having said that, my take on it would be that while I agree it is a cause of where we are now, it is only one of many, and I wouldnt personally describe it as a primary cause, or one of the main causes. The media, as in the MSM, such as the BBC, are less powerful than they used to be. If I was going to attribute this to a section of the media I would put it down to new media more than old, to social media - Facebook and Twitter. A lot more has been said about this in the social media thread and I wont go into it too much here but I will repeat something I mentioned a week or two ago in there, which was about parallels between the rise of social media and the early days of newspapers, to the first cheap, widely available daily newspapers. As they gained traction in Europe the population became increasingly radicalised, and within a couple of decades, in 1848, you can revolutions across most of Europe.

For me, when you look at the kind of upheaval we have in the UK at the moment - and in the US and loads of other places, taking different forms and different levels of severity in each place - and you are looking for a cause, you need to identify something that changed. Has MSM changed significantly? Enough to trigger all this? Its dying, you could argue, but it hasnt really changed, not fundamentally. So why would all this be happening now? What has changed is social media, not the BBC. (I dont think the competency of the political class has changed much either. Maybe things have come out confirming pre-existing concerns about their competence and integrity, such as the expenses scandal (revealed by a bastion of the UK press by the way) but I think people have been pretty cynical about their politicians for a long time.)

But I dont even think that is the main reason. I think, if you are going to put it down to one thing, it is economics. Revolutions happen when extended periods of growth and rising prosperity suddenly end. When people get used to believing that, whatever hardships they face, things will be better for them in years to come than they are now, and that their kids will be better off than them, but then that belief is eroded or killed entirely. What is bearable when average prosperity is rising is not bearable when it isnt. And that is what we have seen in the last 10-12 years. In January 2007 people had optimism about the future. By the end of 2008 they were genuinely asking themselves whether their money was safe in banks. Then austerity happened, people no longer felt financially secure and resentment about inequality went through the roof. Today it is common for people to believe things will be harder for our kids than it is for us. People fear losing their jobs, they fear automation, they fear offshoring, they fear never being able to afford a house, never being able to clear their credit card debt and the rest of it.

People were angry and in the mood to revolt. And then, along comes a referendum about the EU. In retrospect the result is completely predictable.

So does the media play a role in that? Definitely. You cant put this down to a thing and deny the input of other things, it is infinitely complex and interrelated, as I said. Has the media helped channel the anger into what it is, scapegoating immigrants and red tape as though they are the reasons they have lost their financial security? Of course it has. But ultimately I believe the shit was always going to hit the fan, one way or the other, after the crisis of 2008. Especially given the way none of the shenanigans were ever really punished, the people who caused it ended up getting richer and a system seen as grossly unfair by many was left largely intact. A few technical reforms nobody really understands about bank capital hardly feels like a satisfactory resolution to a crisis that triggered austerity.
 
..and the response from a Tory MP. Sweet fecking jesus..


"With our own planes" Does he mean Bombardiers or something else from de Havilland? When has the UK produced planes to compete with the likes of Airbus and Boeing?

So stupid, it's criminal.
 
So the peoples vote group have pulled the amendment because it might not pass whilst simultaneously criticising Corbyn for not backing it when it won't pass. On top of that the same MPs criticised Corbyn for not wanting to put down the VONC when they thought it wouldn't pass :wenger:

The People's Vote lot are just another group looking after their own interests and self-promotion, particularly Chuka