Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[2mufc0]

It was pretty good for us.

Was good for people of a certain complexion definitely, if that outweighs the harm done to the darker subjects is clear to see.

 

[villain]

It's similar reasons the English have never really taken to the EU. It's fine to tell the conquered dominions that we are stronger together and should be closer. It's something else when these thoughts come from somewhere else.

I think on some subconscious level England can't help perceive the EU as some kind of foreign subversive invader than as the alliance of equals that they are actually a self chosen part of.

Good point. The duality of celebrating ruling other territories via the Empire, and not wanting to be ruled by a European allegiance is quite striking.

 

[Mb194dc]

How would No Deal get taken off the table exactly?
The only way to guarantee that is to agree some deal before 29th March. And the only way to do that is cross-party conversations.

I think the sensible option right now is to revoke Article 50, giving the parties time to create a reasonable Brexit path, something the government should've done over 2 years ago.

My hope is that the UK ask the EU for an extension, which is only granted on the condition of the UK holding a public vote (of some sort, maybe a second referendum) which ends up cancelling the whole thing.

Agree with this, I think the EU27 will only grant an extension for an election, it's also possible they could do if we wanted to add the 4 freedoms in to the existing deal to remove the backstop. That would just be remaining on worse terms though and I can't see how it would fly. Better just to withdraw article 50.

I don't think a second referendum is a good idea because it will increase bitterness and resentment on both sides, and the result would never be accepted, especially if it was the deal v remain.

Parliament should do it's job and just revoke article 50 explaining to the British people that all the options are terrible, none deliver on the 2016 referendum result and that is therefore the only choice. We also then need a GE and May needs to be removed.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

Think some are overestimating the intelligence of the UK electorate.

Except for a small minority of Rees Mogg types who have wet dreams of Mother Britannia's deeply imperialist history, the referendum result wasn't because of frustrations with the nuances of the EU. Most wouldn't have even known basics about its structure, or how it works.

In the eyes of the layman, there was one key issue that EU membership associated with, and that was immigration. More
than anything, the UK's deeply ingrained issues with racism were exposed.

 

[B20]

Think some are overestimating the intelligence of the UK electorate.

Except for a small minority of Rees Mogg types who have wet dreams of Mother Britannia's deeply imperialist history, the referendum result wasn't because of frustrations with the nuances of the EU. Most wouldn't have even known basics about its structure, or how it works.

In the eyes of the layman, there was one key issue that EU membership associated with, and that was immigration. More
than anything, the UK's deeply ingrained issues with racism were exposed.

Sovereignty was a pretty big issue during the election too.

 

[Smores]

How would No Deal get taken off the table exactly?
The only way to guarantee that is to agree some deal before 29th March. And the only way to do that is cross-party conversations.

I think the sensible option right now is to revoke Article 50, giving the parties time to create a reasonable Brexit path, something the government should've done over 2 years ago.

My hope is that the UK ask the EU for an extension, which is only granted on the condition of the UK holding a public vote (of some sort, maybe a second referendum) which ends up cancelling the whole thing.

It gets informally taken of the table by May removing the threat and guaranteeing that she'll request an extension or revokation if neccesary.

That's all that needs to be done, a simple statement of intent. If the EU don't grant it (and for those following they've already said they will for a short term and long term) then it's not on May.

 

[Wibble]

If one more politician says "Lets be clear" before being anything but I am going to .......

 

[Massive Spanner]

If one more politician says "Lets be clear" before being anything but I am going to .......

"let's be clear here, Brexit means Brexit".

 

[JPRouve]

Whatever happened to Breakfast Means Breakfast?

Get eggs with it!

 

[Revan]

Goodness me...
The Withdrawal Bill was soundly rejected despite Mrs May having gone to the EU to try and get an improvement to it which would have made it more acceptable to Parliament.

Again today they reiterated that there can be no improvement.
There is no incentive for them to concede any ground while there is a chance of a second referendum which could potentially reverse the leave vote.

They actually said that they will give a better deal if UK allows freedom of movement.

British people who want a much better deal than Norway while UK doesn't allow freedom of movement are living in a parallel universe. It ain't gonna happen. It doesn't matter that Britain Empire was the biggest empire ever and the sun never set on British Empire, it ain't gonna happen. The moment they realize it, the better for them.

At this moment, EU holds all the cards, and actually they have given a more than generous deal to UK. UK should stop bitching, either accept it, do hard Brexit or revoke Article 50.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Think some are overestimating the intelligence of the UK electorate.

Except for a small minority of Rees Mogg types who have wet dreams of Mother Britannia's deeply imperialist history, the referendum result wasn't because of frustrations with the nuances of the EU. Most wouldn't have even known basics about its structure, or how it works.

In the eyes of the layman, there was one key issue that EU membership associated with, and that was immigration. More
than anything, the UK's deeply ingrained issues with racism were exposed.

Which begs the question for me, why are leave voters so unhappy with May's deal?

I can understand remain voters not liking the deal, but didn't her deal offer,

• "Control" of our borders
• No payments to the EU
• No obligation to follow EU law

Aren't these the main points Leave voters wanted?

 

[Massive Spanner]

Which begs the question for me, why are leave voters so unhappy with May's deal?

I can understand remain voters not liking the deal, but didn't her deal offer,

• "Control" of our borders
• No payments to the EU
• No obligation to follow EU law

Aren't these the main points Leave voters wanted?

Not really.

In their eyes the backstop leaves them tied to the EU indefinitely, because they know there's no solution to the backstop that isn't diabolical for .. everyone, and therefore they'd probably never get out. They see the only way of getting 'control' as crashing out on March 29th with no agreement.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Not really.

In their eyes the backstop leaves them tied to the EU indefinitely, because they know there's no solution to the backstop that isn't diabolical for .. everyone, and therefore they'd probably never get out. They see the only way of getting 'control' as crashing out on March 29th with no agreement.

The backstop really confuses me to be honest. It doesn't affect freedom of movement does it? So the leave voters that wanted to stop the eastern Europeans invading still get what they want?

 

[Mb194dc]

Think some are overestimating the intelligence of the UK electorate.

Except for a small minority of Rees Mogg types who have wet dreams of Mother Britannia's deeply imperialist history, the referendum result wasn't because of frustrations with the nuances of the EU. Most wouldn't have even known basics about its structure, or how it works.

In the eyes of the layman, there was one key issue that EU membership associated with, and that was immigration. More
than anything, the UK's deeply ingrained issues with racism were exposed.

Personally I don't think that is correct at all.

The UK is and has been prepared to accept immigrants for hundreds of years. They are very welcome almost everywhere and run most of the vital public services in the country as well as almost the entire hospitality industry in London and the South East. In fact in my experience lots of businesses in the South East tend to avoid hiring English people as they're too lazy!

The issue is that people in the UK felt disenfranchised because immigration was not under the control of the UK parliament and they therefore didn't get any direct say in it. The conservatives set out ludicrous migration targets that further exposed this issue. This isn't an issue in the rest of the EU because the countries are much less tolerant of immigration in the first place. France is a pretty good example of this.

If the UK government did have control full of immigration it may come from different parts of the world but wouldn't markedly change in my opinion. People in the UK want immigration and can see that it is a very positive thing. They're mostly concerned with their economic well being, and house prices...

 

[stevoc]

I don't think anyone, with any degree of intelligence, is unaware of the nature of the DUP.

The pissing contest between them and Sinn Fein has been going on since the forever, I'm not entirely convinced that they aren't pro gay marriage just because DUP won the coin toss to be against it. I feel like the middle ground reasonable people of both sides, gave us peace, but polarized the voter base for each side for the perceived betrayal, which shows how mental our place is that the UUP and SDLP are "reasonable".

I was quite buoyed by the rise of the Alliance party but then they had to go a take down that flag nobody noticed was there and now, we're back to square negative one.

At this point in my life I'm pro united Ireland just so none of these cnuts would really matter any more.

Oh don't get me wrong mate i'm no fan of Sinn Fein either. Both just take the opposite stance of the other by default as you say. Sinn Fein came out as supporting remain in the referendum forcing the DUP to back leave. They played the DUP like a fiddle basically.

I also have my doubts about some of Sinn Fein's public opinions, but in terms of batshit crazy your average DUP member is on another level.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Whatever happened to Breakfast Means Breakfast?

Dog's Dinner means Dog's Dinner

 

[Strachans Cigar]

Two years & the mother of all parliaments still can’t move forward. Shining example we are.

This should be pretty simple.

Parliament has a pro-EU majority, save for the 100+ Tory eurosceptics and a handful of other MPs.

However, as May has said, 80% of the electorate voted for parties that will honour the referendum result. So, Brexit in all likelihood is going to happen. It should happen.

A referendum though that was a simple yes or no to EU membership.

So the best option is clearly a soft (aka virtually pointless) Brexit that gets though parliament and also honours the referendum result.

If leavers still aren’t happy with a soft brexit, go & vote UKIP again.

The Tory eurosceptics should bite the bullet & feck off to UKIP. If they have the balls to that is.

This is one issue, but an issue that has caused the Tory party major problems for yonks. However, this is also the Tory Party that took us into Europe originally without a referendum!

 

[Buster15]

That makes no sense. There is no better deal available, lurching out with no deal would be an utter disaster and not what most leave voters thought they voted for and even in the unlikely event we get the same result it would be a vote for a specific exit - we would know the exact consequences of each option.

Sound very democratic to me.

It makes perfect sense to me but go ahead and have as many referendums until you get the right answer whatever that is.

 

[Buster15]

Serious question: What do you think the lies were that Remain told, interested to know.

Too many to mention. But are you of the opinion that the remain side was lily white.

 

[Buster15]

They actually said that they will give a better deal if UK allows freedom of movement.

British people who want a much better deal than Norway while UK doesn't allow freedom of movement are living in a parallel universe. It ain't gonna happen. It doesn't matter that Britain Empire was the biggest empire ever and the sun never set on British Empire, it ain't gonna happen. The moment they realize it, the better for them.

At this moment, EU holds all the cards, and actually they have given a more than generous deal to UK. UK should stop bitching, either accept it, do hard Brexit or revoke Article 50.

Well if it was so generous why was it rejected by such a massive margin.

 

[Wibble]

It makes perfect sense to me but go ahead and have as many referendums until you get the right answer whatever that is.

You are totally avoiding the point.

The original referendum was a clusterfeck of misinformation and lies. The subsequent debacle has fully demonstrated this and has resulted in zero palatable options and governmental gridlock. The sensible and possibly only way out is to go back to the people to see if they still want to leave and if so on what terms.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Which begs the question for me, why are leave voters so unhappy with May's deal?

I can understand remain voters not liking the deal, but didn't her deal offer,

• "Control" of our borders
• No payments to the EU
• No obligation to follow EU law

Aren't these the main points Leave voters wanted?

No it doesn't mean that, they're still paying for the transition and follow EU laws whilst still in the SM and the borders stay the same.

 

[Buster15]

Saw 'call me dave' interviewed on the news. Said he didnt regret his decision to call ref, then ran off. Seem familiar?

I hope that he is struggling to sleep at night and if he is then good job.
He has done more damage and caused more chaos than any other PM.

 

[Wibble]

Well if it was so generous why was it rejected by such a massive margin.

Because Brexitiers hate the backstop (feck NI Catholics) and others either don't want to piss their constituents off (minor) or don"t want to leave at all. Basically May's deal tried to please everyone and pleased nobody.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Too many to mention. But are you of the opinion that the remain side was lily white.

Just name one, they may have exaggerated things but that is just predictions, I mean actual irrefutable facts.

 

[Buster15]

You are totally avoiding the point.

The original referendum was a clusterfeck of misinformation and lies. The subsequent debacle has fully demonstrated this and has resulted in zero palatable options and governmental gridlock. The sensible and possibly only way out is to go back to the people to see if they still want to leave and if so on what terms.

Am I really.
If you recall we were told by Cameron that this was a once in a lifetime vote.
Well I am still alive.

There is still time to do the thingthat should have been done in the first place and get cross party consensus.

 

[Buster15]

Just name one, they may have exaggerated things but that is just predictions, I mean actual irrefutable facts.

Project fear. So many that they were even given a name.

 

[Jacko21]

Just name one, they may have exaggerated things but that is just predictions, I mean actual irrefutable facts.

I guess in the same way people point to the 'additional £350m a week for the NHS' being a lie, others can point to the 'up to 820,000 jobs lost within two years of the vote' being a lie too.

 

[Mogget]

Project fear. So many that they were even given a name.

If there's so many can you name two please. Surely that won't be difficult as there are so many.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Project fear. So many that they were even given a name.

Project fear is a prediction. Think Osborne said something about emergency budget and Cameron said something about WW3 and plagues of locusts or something like that.

The real economic crisis will only happen if the Uk drops off the cliff at the end of March or whenever.

I'm talking about things like Leave said they had no control over immigrants, their borders , how much they paid to the EU, Turkey were about to join the EU etc etc which were all blatant lies. They were provably wrong .

 

[Revan]

Well if it was so generous why was it rejected by such a massive margin.

Cause the UK wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants all the benefits of European Union members, without paying anything and not having freedom of movement.

It already has a better deal than Norway has, and unlike Norway it doesn't have freedom of movement.

 

[Smores]

I guess in the same way people point to the 'additional £350m a week for the NHS' being a lie, others can point to the 'up to 820,000 jobs lost within two years of the vote' being a lie too.

That was a Treasury impact assessment for the worst case of Brexit (not the vote). It was based on no deal and hardly looks like a lie to me.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I guess in the same way people point to the 'additional £350m a week for the NHS' being a lie, others can point to the 'up to 820,000 jobs lost within two years of the vote' being a lie too.

But they didn't pay £350m net to the EU, I didn't mean what they were going to do with the money. 820000 was a prediction, that was rubbish, the UK are still even now in the EU and the markets are still waiting to see which way they are going to jump.

 

[Revan]

I guess in the same way people point to the 'additional £350m a week for the NHS' being a lie, others can point to the 'up to 820,000 jobs lost within two years of the vote' being a lie too.

One was a lie (that they admitted the next day after the referendum), the other a projection, which has turned to be wrong.

There is still time for it though.

 

[Wibble]

Am I really.
If you recall we were told by Cameron that this was a once in a lifetime vote.
Well I am still alive.

There is still time to do the thingthat should have been done in the first place and get cross party consensus.

Who give a toss about a soundbite from an idiot like Cameron? The idiot that got us into this mess. No more meaningful than 1000 other idiotic soundbites.

And there isn't time as a) there is no time and b) there is no concensus.

 

[Wibble]

Project fear. So many that they were even given a name.

We should be afraid. Leave with a deal will be an economic and social disaster but leaving without a deal will be worse by an order of magnitude.

 

[Jacko21]

That was a Treasury impact assessment for the worst case of Brexit (not the vote). It was based on no deal and hardly looks like a lie to me.

"This paper focuses on the immediate impact of a vote to leave and the two years that follow"...

It then proceeded to state that at least 500,000 jobs would be lost and GDP would be 3.6% smaller within those two years.

 

[Walrus]

A non binding referendum between “No deal” and “No Brexit” would be sensible. With the acknowledgement that parliament is still to try to get a satisfactory deal, but that they understand what the “default position” should be if an acceptable deal is not agreed upon.

 

[Strachans Cigar]

May not budging on no deal & seemingly reluctant to ask to extend article 50:

Following her meeting on Thursday, Green MP Caroline Lucas said the PM refused to rule out a no-deal Brexit.

"I repeatedly urged her again and again to take 'no deal' off the table because I think it completely skews the talks because you know that cliff edge is there," she said.

Mrs May was also resisting the option of extending Article 50, Ms Lucas said.

 

[Adebesi]

A non binding referendum between “No deal” and “No Brexit” would be sensible. With the acknowledgement that parliament is still to try to get a satisfactory deal, but that they understand what the “default position” should be if an acceptable deal is not agreed upon.

I agree in principle, though I would be very afraid going into that referendum.

But I guess it would be the ultimate test of democracy. Does democracy give people the right to do something really, really stupid? Or should it only be given the right to choose between sensible options? How much should an electorate be protected from its own ignorance or self destructiveness?