we triggered ours a few months ago... and even if she swung a new deal it would be irrelavant - decisions have been taken and money committed to things outside the UK so we wont backtrack on that
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
See, I struggle with whether or not this is true.
I feel like she's been handed a situation that would be very difficult for even an extremely competent leader to deal with. It's totally a poisoned chalice and I don't know any politician in the country right now who could have come out of all this without pissing off a large group of the electorate either way.
I don't think she's good or anything (she's far from a natural leader) but it's hard to properly assess her giving the situation she's been handed. She's fundamentally not a very likeable person but given the shit sandwich that she's been dealt I'm not sure how much of the blame lies with her.
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I'd say that's fair. Given the circumstances I'm not sure anyone would've come away from Brexit looking like a good PM. Corbyn's fans have basically been praising him for pretending it's not an issue for the past two years!
Although even in isolation she'll still go down as being quite bad, I think. As home secretary she utterly failed to address immigration - even if you don't think it's a problem, it's a target her party set and one she left unfulfilled. As PM she went straight for the hard Brexit juggernaut, normalising the idea that we'd leave the SM and CU post-Brexit when even Farage and co weren't necessarily saying that would happen beforehand. Her decision to call a GE last year was daft and her actual campaigning skills during it were embarrassing, both due to her own performance as an individual, and due to the fact she (or someone in her team) decided it was a good idea to even try and focus upon her as an individual during the campaign. Dour politicians can be alright sometimes...but only if they don't try to pretend they're anything other than dour.
She’s also incredibly spineless in the sense that she will basically flip and flop whichever way will allow her to hold on to the job the longest and has no real values to speak of. She’s mightily resilient like a shitstain of granite quality but that is her only true quality IMO.
A proper statesman or woman of charisma would have towed the party into line and the nation and basically set it out clearly that this is what the referendum will mean for the economy and this is the best I can get - if you don’t like it, we simply have to have another referendum or bin the thing altogether as no deal is too damaging to the economy.
Instead the spineless cow will just keep stating we must honour the referendum time and time again without any courage to speak the truth that it is a disaster of unmitigated proportions. Her thirst for power has proven to be her downfall.
I'd say that's fair. Given the circumstances I'm not sure anyone would've come away from Brexit looking like a good PM. Corbyn's fans have basically been praising him for pretending it's not an issue for the past two years!
Although even in isolation she'll still go down as being quite bad, I think. As home secretary she utterly failed to address immigration - even if you don't think it's a problem, it's a target her party set and one she left unfulfilled. As PM she went straight for the hard Brexit juggernaut, normalising the idea that we'd leave the SM and CU post-Brexit when even Farage and co weren't necessarily saying that would happen beforehand. Her decision to call a GE last year was daft and her actual campaigning skills during it were embarrassing, both due to her own performance as an individual, and due to the fact she (or someone in her team) decided it was a good idea to even try and focus upon her as an individual during the campaign. Dour politicians can be alright sometimes...but only if they don't try to pretend they're anything other than dour.
True, the whole windrush situation as well should never have happened and reeked of yet more incompetence (or something more insidious) which doesn't help when you're portraying yourself as the party of stability.
I don't know about calling a GE. I actually think it was possibly a good decision but then just completely botched. She was in a fantastic position to increase her majority and go forward with confidence in to the EU negotiations, but the campaign her team ran was one of the worst I've ever seen. How much of that was down to her though is difficult to stay, she would have had a team of 'experts' instructing her on the best way to win support. It all just came off as being completely out of touch, when she ran away from a live debate in particular that was a total PR disaster.
It is difficult though. She's a remainer at heart who has been forced to deliver something she doesn't truly believe in, and no matter which way she delivers it people won't be happy. She put a deal on the table which was the deal everyone knew was the one we'd get and of course that doesn't satisfy anyone.
She is a massive flip flopper, but in fairness this could be applied to 99% of politicians now. They will all pretty much run with whatever the public is screaming at the time.
That position would cause major friction within her own party (see the rebellion right now) and would lose the conservatives a large section of their support with the electorate. You could argue that she should value country over party, but this is pretty much a fantasy in modern politics, the vast majority (particularly the ones who get close to power) are massively self serving. She knows it is a disaster, I don't think she's an unintelligent person, but she also knows if she admits that to people it would be chaos.
I honestly think she will feel like she's delivering what the country voted for to the best of her ability. I don't think it's about power any longer because there's no way she's enjoying herself right now, it must be an absolute nightmare of a job.
For me I only really remember Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and the Maybot
like or loath them i think you have to say Thatcher and Blair were very successful in terms of how long they were in power and the elections they won
Major had similar issues with the internal fights over europe but he won them plus he actualluy won an election so for me he would be seen as more successful
Cameron obviously ran away after the referendum and being a pig feking flashman you would think he should be bottom of the list (and the fact he is not is probably more a reflection on the other two than him) but he managed to keep the top job for almost 5 years and he did win an election
its hard to pick a worst out of May and Brown both are pretty awful
With regard to Brexit, it is a poisoned chalice and she has tunnel vision to obtain the objective of leaving te EU.
The reason I say it is that she has no aura of a leader, no idea how to interact with people and she does actually come across as robotic.
She comes across as xenophobic and total lack of empathy for people and is also a terribly bad liar and totally untrustworthy.
We've had good and bad leaders as PM's over the years but others had some form of qualities. Her only attribute seems to be her endurance.
Well we will keep seeing this Groundhog Day until the date of leaving comes around.
Posted at 12:5712:57
'Bleak midwinter for Parliament'
The Times
Bruno Waterfield from The Times has what our correspondent Laura Kuenssberg calls "grim detail" on what went wrong for Theresa May last night.
They say that British negotiators had agreed a draft statement with senior EU officials that would have provided "political comfort" that the bloc was prepared to compromise on the backstop issue.
But at a dinner in Brussels last night - held without the UK PM - European leaders went back on the joint agreement "to send a message to MPs that no further concessions would be forthcoming from Brussels".
They quote a senior EU source as saying: "To use a Christmas theme, we want all parties and factions in the British parliament to feel the bleak midwinter."
They said Dutch PM Mark Rutte argued that if the EU gave ground then Brexiteers would demand even more - and was backed by France, Denmark and Belgium.
PM to speak soon... not sure what to expect but wouldnt be surprised if she
A/ said feck it ive had enough of this shit
B/ feck europe - no deals better than (my) bad deal and its a hard vrexit
C/ referendum - her deal or no deal?
That's fair, I do think that she's just not a personality suited to leadership. To counter that though, the people around her are awful and have given her terrible advice on how to present herself as more personable, their entire team needs to be sacked tomorrow because they've turned her from someone viewed by most as cold but effective, to a complete joke who is also a terrible person. They've played her personality the worst way they possibly could.
With regards to her tunnel vision, I honestly think that for her it was the only way she could go. When Cameron stepped down, there was demands for a leader who would 'see Brexit through' and plenty were angry at even the idea of a remainer taking charge. So she pretty much had to satisfy that group (which make up a large part of Tory voters, and a significant section of their party) by assuring them she would deliver on the vote, and going back on that is far easier said than done.
I don't envy the task she's been handed, that's for sure.
She'll get more sympathy in time than David Cameron. So she won't be the worst PM - idiot Dave has that sewn up.
Just because it was a poisoned chalice does not mean she can be excused from trying to omit parliament and the cross-party brexit committee from the process. She was a big part of the referendum in the first place.
From putting down A50 prematurely to making virtually no progress on brexit and waiting until the end of the process to listen to MPs she's been an absolute dissgrace.
That's without delving into her trying to block the revokation hearing, trying to prevent parlaiment from debating or getting a meaningful vote at all. She then proceeded to try and make the withdrawal bill non-amendable, try and block all of the following sector analysis papers (which weren't even done to any standard), immigration analysis, AG advice. I know I'm missing some there too.
Then her latest stunt of taking the bill away from parliament without a further vote on it despite the whole process being agreed in parliament.
She'll go down as a prime minsiter who treated parliament (both houses) in utter contempt and that's just inexcusable.
May won an election too, tbf. Despite her team running possibly the worst campaign possible. She also narrowly defeated a rebellion within her own party.
I think it was just the timing of when she took over. Like I just said in my latest post, the demand was for a leader that would deliver on the 'will of the people', so she pretty much had to tow that line. I think the biggest mistake she ever made was jumping at the chance to be PM at a time where it was basically impossible to come off looking good. Her shitty personality doesn't help but it's hard to judge how she would have been during a normal political climate, probably pretty bad but we'll never know for sure.
I think she'll regret becoming prime minister for the rest of her life.
over an hour late... you know she might just quit?
not really - she didn't get a majority (like cameron first time)
And now she's putting on a show for the camera being 'tough' with Juncker 
True, but she did at least manage to scrape together a majority.
That said, there's little positive that can be said about campaign. Pretty much every she/her team made was a total disaster.
May came to get clarification, and has said, "they are willing to clarify".
She sounds absolutely fried.
has she mentioned that she is just getting on with the job
Brexit means Brexit.
Clearest clarification to provide clarity
Even now she's trying to pretend she got something
Just gerron with it!!!!!!!!!!!
She'd be a terrible poker player, she doesn't need to say anything, just look at her face.
Her main problem now is that she thinks that a minor tweak on the wording is going to solve the problems in parliament.
They are going to vote any deal down.
Her best bet is what she's doing and that is to delay the vote as long as possible.
Her main problem now is that she thinks that a minor tweak on the wording is going to solve the problems in parliament.
They are going to vote any deal down.
Her best bet is what she's doing and that is to delay the vote as long as possible.
Cameroon did the same
From Peston, ouch
in fairness shes actually right - I dont think anybody can pick a deal that would get a majority in parliament
but yeah cant blame the Eu for not wanting to negotiate on that basis
She should know what she's there to get at least. If i went in front of our board of directors with so little knowledge of what i need to solve a project I'd be sacked for incompetence.
As i said yesterday she was only there to try and spin a lie there was never any goal beyond that.
I am still amazed that she has not even tried to use the 39bn divorce settlement as a negotiation position.
If the EU are understandably playing hard ball then there is nothing wrong with her telling them that the British people do not believe that the deal is acceptable and certainly not worth 39bn of taxpayers money.
However, we will not walk away from our so called obligations but we will pay the 39bn over 39 years.
I am sure that this would get the backing of the Commons and the people.
Can't the UK government create and pass a Bill that, in the event of it being trapped in the backstop, after a certain time period of time, the UK would be prepared to act in defiance of the WA.
I think she has, no deal means no £39bn
I'm curious, what would actually happen if we straight up refused to pay the 39 billion? Just walked out and said no, you'll never get it.
They'd take the hit.
We might find out soon
There's a significant element of the EU that are in the 'we're not that bothered' camp. The UK are the opt-out kings of the block and have been a thorn in the side of their plans for decades.
The 39bn is partly what the UK owe and partly for the transition period payment.
The worst thing she could do would be to threaten this.
It's not a massive sum of money in the grand scheme of things even if it seems a lot to the average person. This is about trust and principle and to get a new relationship.
The agreement she has is basically what any PM would have come back with - everyone knew from the beginning that the EU would never budge on the 4 freedoms and will support Ireland all the way on the border.
There's no way anything she says will change this.
The problem has been that she and all the other politicians have lied before and since the referendum and have misled the electorate.
The ERG aren't worried about the 39bn - they want a clean break, Labour want the government to fall and will reject whatever was brought back. The 39bn is a red herring.