Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Barca84]

The answers on line and face-to-face are totally different, so which one is correct bearing in mind that how many people will admit to being xenophobic to someone's face rather than anonymously on line, likewise not many would admit it on here because they would be banned.

In summary, overall it is a criticism of the handling of the government's immigration policy and these people are recommending stuff which is already there but not implemented. This further reveals their lack of understanding of the matter.
The real problem is the reason people think like this and this is what needs tackling but it is not in the interest of the government to tackle this matter.

Over two years after the referendum and how many people do you think have changed their attitude/mind, I would guess not many, do you? the evidence is all there to be seen but the Brexiters are not interested otherwise everyone would be calling for this idiotic decision to be overturned.

I'd argue the opposite re the disparity in online and face to face survey results (No matter the subject online debate invariably leans towards more extreme and polarised positions) You seem obsessed with this idea that significant numbers of people who voted to leave lie about their reasons and have stated this on numerous occasions. On what are you basing this other than more guesswork? Do you think remain voters have lied about why they voted remain and if not why not?

There are 47 recommendations which are new recommendations based on the National Conversation findings with particular emphasis on addressing local "pressure points" and massively improving local integration.

What do you mean by "these people are recommending stuff which is already there but not implemented"? This doesn't make sense so give me just, say, six examples from the forty seven? Initiatives, proposals, policy change etc etc

Re those who have changed their mind I'm of the opinion that significant numbers have and that a vote tomorrow would be a vote to remain. That's guesswork though. You guess not many because that fits your narrative.

 

[Stanley Road]

But as shown in the UK survey, it is those who don't live in the cities and who have least contact with foreigners that are more likely to be against immigration.

Le Pen came second in France too, but the anti-immigration sector of the public isn't directed towards Europeans. I'm not denying there is a section of French people who are anti-immigration.
Here we are talking about Brexit, not overall immigration, not asylum seekers nor refugees nor illegal immigrants nor immigrants from other parts of the world, that's another subject.

There are many factors in peoples choices its not just about anti foreigners. Just wait till job markets crash around europe and youll see a different sentiment.

 

[Sweet Square]

Not everyone was who voted Brexit was a racist/xenophobe but every racists/xenophobe did vote for Brexit.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

There are many factors in peoples choices its not just about anti foreigners. Just wait till job markets crash around europe and youll see a different sentiment.

My question was if Dutch people wanted European people to leave.
If you hadn't noticed that the UK is boasting about their low unemployment and NL is even lower - is this the immigrants' fault?

whereas France is 9%, strangely in France the people blame the government.

The irony is amusing.

 

[Stanley Road]

My question was if Dutch people wanted European people to leave.
If you hadn't noticed that the UK is boasting about their low unemployment and NL is even lower - is this the immigrants' fault?

whereas France is 9%, strangely in France the people blame the government.

The irony is amusing.

The answer is some do. During tougher times when dutch builders have less work, eastern europeans have work cos they undercut. So the answer is not as black and white as you seem to think. At the moment healthcare and hospitality are desperate for people but now we've emptied eastern europe what do we do? I heard someone in the supermarket getting trained in english the other day. Some bar staff only speak english, they weren't europeans. So eu countries should employ people from other lands but on a need be basis and i think that rule should apply to europeans too.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'd argue the opposite re the disparity in online and face to face survey results (No matter the subject online debate invariably leans towards more extreme and polarised positions) You seem obsessed with this idea that significant numbers of people who voted to leave lie about their reasons and have stated this on numerous occasions. On what are you basing this other than more guesswork? Do you think remain voters have lied about why they voted remain and if not why not?

There are 47 recommendations which are new recommendations based on the National Conversation findings with particular emphasis on addressing local "pressure points" and massively improving local integration.

What do you mean by "these people are recommending stuff which is already there but not implemented"? This doesn't make sense so give me just, say, six examples from the forty seven? Initiatives, proposals, policy change etc etc

Re those who have changed their mind I'm of the opinion that significant numbers have and that a vote tomorrow would be a vote to remain. That's guesswork though. You guess not many because that fits your narrative.

That suits your narrative and that's your opinion , disagree totally. What are you basing this on, guesswork?
It's more difficult to tell if someone is lying online but face to face is very easy. You just have to ask the right questions. This is vital.

You also omitted to mention the extract I quoted, would this be because it doesn't suit your narrative and agrees with my opinion? And this is assuming people told the truth.

A lot of the points don't just deal with Brexit but with overall immigration. Imo I would guess that it would be easier for a German,for example, to live in Britain than someone from a central African country or a Muslim Asian country, for example. Germany may seem like another planet to some but to me it's not that different to the UK. We'll just concentrate on EU citizens so number of points is rather limited. However, here we go:

13. Involve the public in decisions about future EU migration policy through an official National Conversation on Immigration, and a public information campaign after the Brexit negotiations are concluded.

It is called electing the government and all their policies.

14. Give a unilateral commitment to EU nationals currently living in the UK that
their status is secure in the event of the UK leaving the EU without a final deal.

Did May lie then?

15. Introduce a mandatory Home Office registration system and Canadian-style criminal vetting for future migration from the EU.

The UK have no idea who's in the country, who's departed and who is a criminal, as I said the incompetence of the UK government, the controls they already have.

16. Introduce controls on some or all low-skilled migration from the EU, through a bar on recruiting EU nationals into jobs that pay less than the National Living Wage and/or a work visa system.

Minimum Wage may give a clue to this, isn't it illegal to pay someone less than the minimum wage in the UK?

17. Simplify the Tier 2 visa system covering the recruitment of migrant workers from outside the EU and reduce the £30,000 pay threshold for Tier 2 visas.

Why should anyone have to earn £30k to be able to live in the UK?

18. Make sure that all migrant workers – from outside and within the EU - have clear and affordable routes to settlement and British citizenship, which should act as a lever to encourage integration in the UK.

Yes it cost me €55 to become French. Yes much more expensive in the UK. Strangely I chose to become French and also didn't suddenly become capable of speaking french or integrating into french life after I became a french national. Jesus wept.
There's a guy on here who lives in Germany but wants to stay British, believe he's lived there 25 years, have a feeling he may have integrated by now. But who cares about him?

19. Make sure that HMRC and the Gangmaster and Labour Abuse Authority have sufficient resources to enforce that National Minimum Wage and National Living Wage and other labour standards.

Already exists, government failure again.

20. Sector skills councils should be required to work with the Government, the further education sector, employers and professional bodies to reduce the UK’s dependence on migrant workers.

This is laugh a minute, no mention of aging population. There are loads of vacancies in the NHS, what are they waiting for?

21. Prioritise tackling unemployment, under-employment and precarious work among young people.
Not really specifically EU related?

This is not to mention the ability of the UK government to send back EU nationals who cannot support themselves or who are criminals or are a burden on the state.
As I said in summary it is all about government failure and deliberate misleading of the public including through their media mouthpieces.
If people could be bothered to check this out we may not be where we are. But they don't want to do they.

Now if you are right and that the public mood has swung massively towards remain, what the bloody hell are you all doing, we must accept our fate and suffer heroically and maybe in another 40 years we can change it all, I despair.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The answer is some do. During tougher times when dutch builders have less work, eastern europeans have work cos they undercut. So the answer is not as black and white as you seem to think. At the moment healthcare and hospitality are desperate for people but now we've emptied eastern europe what do we do? I heard someone in the supermarket getting trained in english the other day. Some bar staff only speak english, they weren't europeans. So eu countries should employ people from other lands but on a need be basis and i think that rule should apply to europeans too.

Yes of course. Local people also work 'on the black' so they can undercharge as well. As you know I was in commerce and even had companies trying to undercut us by them making a loss. All good fun.

As the NHS is emptying itself of EU workers they can go to NL. When I employed people, the criteria was only how capable they were at doing the job, not their origin , colour or anything else.
As the rules currently exist, as long as the said EU immigrant is not a burden on the country he has gone to then why should people object?

 

[4bars]

Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.

Aside from this - the UK is an island nation and has never fully embraced Europe in the same way mainland countries have - it's in our nature due to geography.

But in this opinion (agreed by @Barca84 ) of yours you are not denying xenophobia, just justifying why there is xenophobia. So if it is a major factor that caused xenophobia, we double down xenophobia as 2 major reasons. Xenophobia per se, and xenophobia cause by the crisis + is in our nature (wowee)

 

[Barca84]

But in this opinion (agreed by @Barca84 ) of yours you are not denying xenophobia, just justifying why there is xenophobia. So if it is a major factor that caused xenophobia, we double down xenophobia as 2 major reasons. Xenophobia per se, and xenophobia cause by the crisis + is in our nature (wowee)

I've posted multiple times now that xenophobia has been a factor in the Brexit vote. Nobody denies that. The extent of that xenophobia and of outright racism, which despite Paul's recent protestations has long been an accusation he's levelled at the leave vote, is highly debateable. I've taken specific and particular disagreement with a statement by Paul and been quite clear about the basis on which I've done that. It's a narrative he's been peddling on here for years and it needs pulling up.

That suits your narrative and that's your opinion , disagree totally. What are you basing this on, guesswork?
It's more difficult to tell if someone is lying online but face to face is very easy. You just have to ask the right questions. This is vital.

We found considerable difference between the face-to-face discussions in the citizens’ panels and an online debate dominated by relatively few voices, where those with stronger views at either end of the spectrum are most likely to voice their opinions.

You also omitted to mention the extract I quoted, would this be because it doesn't suit your narrative and agrees with my opinion? And this is assuming people told the truth.

It doesn't contradict my narrative in any way. Link to where it does please?

A lot of the points don't just deal with Brexit but with overall immigration. Imo I would guess that it would be easier for a German,for example, to live in Britain than someone from a central African country or a Muslim Asian country, for example. Germany may seem like another planet to some but to me it's not that different to the UK. We'll just concentrate on EU citizens so number of points is rather limited.

Correct. It's a report into immigration not Brexit.

However, here we go:

13. Involve the public in decisions about future EU migration policy through an official National Conversation on Immigration, and a public information campaign after the Brexit negotiations are concluded.

It is called electing the government and all their policies. Nope it's a new recommendation

14. Give a unilateral commitment to EU nationals currently living in the UK that
their status is secure in the event of the UK leaving the EU without a final deal.

Did May lie then? Check the date

15. Introduce a mandatory Home Office registration system and Canadian-style criminal vetting for future migration from the EU.

The UK have no idea who's in the country, who's departed and who is a criminal, as I said the incompetence of the UK government, the controls they already have. Nope. New rec.

16. Introduce controls on some or all low-skilled migration from the EU, through a bar on recruiting EU nationals into jobs that pay less than the National Living Wage and/or a work visa system.

Minimum Wage may give a clue to this, isn't it illegal to pay someone less than the minimum wage in the UK? Clearly its a new rec.

17. Simplify the Tier 2 visa system covering the recruitment of migrant workers from outside the EU and reduce the £30,000 pay threshold for Tier 2 visas.

Why should anyone have to earn £30k to be able to live in the UK? It's a new rec.

18. Make sure that all migrant workers – from outside and within the EU - have clear and affordable routes to settlement and British citizenship, which should act as a lever to encourage integration in the UK.

Yes it cost me €55 to become French. Yes much more expensive in the UK. Strangely I chose to become French and also didn't suddenly become capable of speaking french or integrating into french life after I became a french national. Jesus wept.
There's a guy on here who lives in Germany but wants to stay British, believe he's lived there 25 years, have a feeling he may have integrated by now. But who cares about him? It's a new rec.

19. Make sure that HMRC and the Gangmaster and Labour Abuse Authority have sufficient resources to enforce that National Minimum Wage and National Living Wage and other labour standards.

Already exists, government failure again. Read it again.

20. Sector skills councils should be required to work with the Government, the further education sector, employers and professional bodies to reduce the UK’s dependence on migrant workers.

This is laugh a minute, no mention of aging population. There are loads of vacancies in the NHS, what are they waiting for? It's a new rec.

21. Prioritise tackling unemployment, under-employment and precarious work among young people.
Not really specifically EU related? It's not a report on the EU

"these people are recommending stuff which is already there but not implemented" - You stated incorrectly that there were no new recommendations. I suspect you hadn't even fully read the summary prior to making that mistake but now you've acknowledged that there are. This is progress and at least you've cobbled together some nebulous objections to a handful of them which are, as we see above, are/were all new recommendations based on this research. You might disagree with them but that wasn't what I asked you. I think you need to read things more carefully. With reference to point 21 you appear to remain confused - this is the report of the National Conversation on Immigration not on the Brexit referendum. I've linked it because I'm taking you to task re your stance on the attitudes prevalent in the UK to immigration. Read the title, read the questions, proceed from there - a prerequisite to doing well in exams and not answering questions you haven't been asked.

This is not to mention the ability of the UK government to send back EU nationals who cannot support themselves or who are criminals or are a burden on the state.
As I said in summary it is all about government failure and deliberate misleading of the public including through their media mouthpieces.
If people could be bothered to check this out we may not be where we are. But they don't want to do they.

Now if you are right and that the public mood has swung massively towards remain, what the bloody hell are you all doing, we must accept our fate and suffer heroically and maybe in another 40 years we can change it all, I despair.

Who is "you"? I voted to remain. Neither did I say there has been a "massive" swing. You're making things up.


You keep avoiding my question about why you think leave voters would lie? For the third time this is. One simple question and little room to deflect or obfuscate. How does the face to face research in this report differ from the online surveys?

 

[Barca84]

Exactly, I live in a similar environment, you couldn't feel more welcomed. They love the opportunity to share cultures of other people. A real community spirit, something I never experienced in all my life in the UK.

I suspect this is a reflection of your locality there in France, the colour of your skin and your faith/lack of it. Based on a three year survey of over 100 countries where people were asked "How worried are you about being subject to a physical attack because of your skin colour, ethnic origin or religion?" the French results reported significantly greater fear of hate crime in France than in the UK.

Reasons to be fearful in France from the wiki:

For each year since 1990, the French National Commission on Human Rights (French: Commission nationale et consultative des droits de l'Homme) publishes a report regarding the state of Racism in France.[5]

In 2016, the commission reported that, 33% of the French believe that races do not exist while 8% believe that some races are superior to others.[5] It is believed that the 2015 terrorist attacks in France led to a greater presence of Islamophobia, and also raised the number of racist acts. Complaints of anti-Muslim acts and threats increased by 223% and the incidence of violent racist attacks were higher in the month following each terrorist attack.[5]

According to the commission, this data does not show the full reality as its only based on police data and people does not systematically report racist issues.[5]

The commission also reported that, 34% of the French population consider Islam as something negative, and 50% of them consider it a menace against national identity. In addition, 41% of the population believe that Jews have a singular relationship with money and 20% of them believe that Jews have too much power in France.[5]

Sounds very similar to the picture you portray of the UK to me with France's own special leaning towards long standing anti-semitism. Basically if you're a Muslim, Jewish or brown skinned there's a good chance you wouldn't be feeling such a welcoming community spirit.

 

[JPRouve]

@Paul the Wolf, here you will notice the wiki somehow managed to completely ignore one side of the research which is actually the title of the article.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You keep avoiding my question about why you think leave voters would lie?

About being xenophobic and racist?

My own family lies about this, the whole "I'm not racist but...."
When asked by anyone in public as to why the voted leave, a whole bunch of wishy washy nonsense answers come out.

Same reason all of the polls showed Hilary would clearly win the last Presidential election, people lie, especially when covering up darker sides of their personalities.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@Paul the Wolf, here you will notice the wiki somehow managed to completely ignore one side of the research which is actually the title of the article.

Thanks

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I suspect this is a reflection of your locality there in France, the colour of your skin and your faith/lack of it. Based on a three year survey of over 100 countries where people were asked "How worried are you about being subject to a physical attack because of your skin colour, ethnic origin or religion?" the French results reported significantly greater fear of hate crime in France than in the UK.

Reasons to be fearful in France from the wiki:

For each year since 1990, the French National Commission on Human Rights (French: Commission nationale et consultative des droits de l'Homme) publishes a report regarding the state of Racism in France.[5]

In 2016, the commission reported that, 33% of the French believe that races do not exist while 8% believe that some races are superior to others.[5] It is believed that the 2015 terrorist attacks in France led to a greater presence of Islamophobia, and also raised the number of racist acts. Complaints of anti-Muslim acts and threats increased by 223% and the incidence of violent racist attacks were higher in the month following each terrorist attack.[5]

According to the commission, this data does not show the full reality as its only based on police data and people does not systematically report racist issues.[5]

The commission also reported that, 34% of the French population consider Islam as something negative, and 50% of them consider it a menace against national identity. In addition, 41% of the population believe that Jews have a singular relationship with money and 20% of them believe that Jews have too much power in France.[5]

Sounds very similar to the picture you portray of the UK to me with France's own special leaning towards long standing anti-semitism. Basically if you're a Muslim, Jewish or brown skinned there's a good chance you wouldn't be feeling such a welcoming community spirit.

Here is the article kindly provided by JPRouve - the title translates as "The French are more tolerant despite a tense climate" and continues on to say that since 2014 after the recession they are becoming more tolerant.http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...actes-de-violences-atteignent-des-records.php

If you had read one of my posts yesterday I said I did not deny there was a section of French people who are anti-immigrant, usually led by the feeling that they were sponging off the state, rings a few bells.

Interesting you should talk about other ethnic groups, when I moved here in 2007 I don't think there were any non-Europeans in the village and surrounding areas, now there are at least half a dozen families of Caribbean/African/Arab/South Pacific and everyone is just as welcomed as anyone else.
We have English, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, Belgians as well as French. I am even learning some phrases in the local patois "dialect" - and I m not offended when other people speak a different language.

Now I have walked into a pub in some country village in the UK many a time and the whole place goes deathly quiet. I didn't even have to be of a different colour or speak a different language.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Re those who have changed their mind I'm of the opinion that significant numbers have and that a vote tomorrow would be a vote to remain.

I've posted multiple times now that xenophobia has been a factor in the Brexit vote. Nobody denies that. The extent of that xenophobia and of outright racism, which despite Paul's recent protestations has long been an accusation he's levelled at the leave vote, is highly debateable. I've taken specific and particular disagreement with a statement by Paul and been quite clear about the basis on which I've done that. It's a narrative he's been peddling on here for years and it needs pulling up.

Who is "you"? I voted to remain. Neither did I say there has been a "massive" swing. You're making things up.


You keep avoiding my question about why you think leave voters would lie? For the third time this is. One simple question and little room to deflect or obfuscate. How does the face to face research in this report differ from the online surveys?

Yep, I'm making it up.

I know you voted Remain, that's what I meant, why don't the Remainers do something , if as you say even though you say you didn't that Remain would now win, now in a democratic world if the public has changed their mind surely you don't sit back and accept your fate gracefully.

If you read my posts correctly, I said yesterday that you can't be racist against people of the same race and that you didn't seem to understand the difference , and apparently that seems to be the case.

I said why voters would lie, face to face they don't have the guts to admit it unless they're some raving neo-Nazi.
I don't know if you are deliberately trying to be obtuse but you correctly brought up the fact that the results of the two surveys were different and I agree.
Ignoring the fact that they seem to have been done over different periods of time and to different sets of people it is hardly surprising they are different. The face to face poll seems very moderate but there could be many factors to this including that a lot of the people asked were not white British people.

Asking a question like ' Do you like people of a different skin tone to yours" rate it from 1 to 10 is useless. If you're online anonymously people will feel more free to answer them without worry Now if the question was asked face to face by say someone of Asian or Caribbean origin, there is a possibility that that answer could be different.

Questions have to be much more subtle and and discuss it with people face to face. Someone with a reasonable amount of intelligence can pick up quite quickly whether people are lying or hiding something.

By the way you've still ignored all my points particularly about the 53% of Leave voters against 16% of Remain voters preferring to sacrifice trade against immigration policy per the survey you quoted. Probably my imagination, making it up.

 

[Barca84]

Here is the article kindly provided by JPRouve - the title translates as "The French are more tolerant despite a tense climate" and continues on to say that since 2014 after the recession they are becoming more tolerant.http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...actes-de-violences-atteignent-des-records.php

If you had read one of my posts yesterday I said I did not deny there was a section of French people who are anti-immigrant, usually led by the feeling that they were sponging off the state, rings a few bells.

Interesting you should talk about other ethnic groups, when I moved here in 2007 I don't think there were any non-Europeans in the village and surrounding areas, now there are at least half a dozen families of Caribbean/African/Arab/South Pacific and everyone is just as welcomed as anyone else.
We have English, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, Belgians as well as French. I am even learning some phrases in the local patois "dialect" - and I m not offended when other people speak a different language.

Now I have walked into a pub in some country village in the UK many a time and the whole place goes deathly quiet. I didn't even have to be of a different colour or speak a different language.

You accept the research in the Le Figaro article but refuse to apply to that your scepticism for the UK research which you have dismissed for a variety of nebulous reasons including it's methodology and, as is the norm with yourself, a continued insistence that the UK public is lying. Who's to say that the "more than one French in two claims not to be racist "at all" are in fact lying? Apply the same criteria or this appears both hypocritical and inconsistent. As an aside I note the research period ends 2016 and just this year there have been numerous reports on a frightening upsurge in anti-semitism.

As backup you produce these anecdotes of yours, which are great but are just that..anecdotes. Invariably when I walk into a UK pub I end up chatting with someone. Our German relatives look forward to visiting due partly to the warm welcome they've received wherever they've been be it shops, cafes, pubs - a welcome and friendliness from strangers that they don't experience at home. In the social spaces that I frequent I encounter a wide variety of nationalities and ethnicities and all are welcomed. These are snapshots though, anecdotes, isolated personal experiences which is why, as interesting as they may be, don't paint an overall picture. I don't claim that this is typical nor evidence of of a wider societal norm.

 

[Stanley Road]

We generally find people much more welcoming and polite in the uk when we visit.

The pub argument is hit and miss tho, depends where you go.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You accept the research in the Le Figaro article but refuse to apply to that your scepticism for the UK research which you have dismissed for a variety of nebulous reasons including it's methodology and, as is the norm with yourself, a continued insistence that the UK public is lying. Who's to say that the "more than one French in two claims not to be racist "at all" are in fact lying? Apply the same criteria or this appears both hypocritical and inconsistent. As an aside I note the research period ends 2016 and just this year there have been numerous reports on a frightening upsurge in anti-semitism.

As backup you produce these anecdotes of yours, which are great but are just that..anecdotes. Invariably when I walk into a UK pub I end up chatting with someone. Our German relatives look forward to visiting due partly to the warm welcome they've received wherever they've been be it shops, cafes, pubs - a welcome and friendliness from strangers that they don't experience at home. In the social spaces that I frequent I encounter a wide variety of nationalities and ethnicities and all are welcomed. These are snapshots though, anecdotes, isolated personal experiences which is why, as interesting as they may be, don't paint an overall picture. I don't claim that this is typical nor evidence of of a wider societal norm.

Of course I have also worked and experienced life all over France but because you found an article that suits your agenda you know better, brilliant.

But that's beside the point. You keep straying from the subject at hand. Here we are talking about Brexit. British people objecting to Europeans. Now can you find one of your articles that says that French people object to European people being amongst them.

 

[Barca84]

Yep, I'm making it up.

Grab a dictionary. Look up significant. Look up massive. Get back to me.

I know you voted Remain, that's what I meant, why don't the Remainers do something , if as you say even though you say you didn't that Remain would now win, now in a democratic world if the public has changed their mind surely you don't sit back and accept your fate gracefully.

See above.

If you read my posts correctly, I said yesterday that you can't be racist against people of the same race and that you didn't seem to understand the difference , and apparently that seems to be the case.

What on earth are you wibbling on about? Where have I stated that you can? Stop making things up.

I said why voters would lie, face to face they don't have the guts to admit it unless they're some raving neo-Nazi.
I don't know if you are deliberately trying to be obtuse but you correctly brought up the fact that the results of the two surveys were different and I agree.
Ignoring the fact that they seem to have been done over different periods of time and to different sets of people it is hardly surprising they are different.

"online debate dominated by relatively few voices, where those with stronger views at either end of the spectrum are most likely to voice their opinions"

The face to face poll seems very moderate but there could be many factors to this including that a lot of the people asked were not white British people.

The people asked were representative of their community. Go back and look at the methodology.

Asking a question like ' Do you like people of a different skin tone to yours" rate it from 1 to 10 is useless. If you're online anonymously people will feel more free to answer them without worry Now if the question was asked face to face by say someone of Asian or Caribbean origin, there is a possibility that that answer could be different.

Questions have to be much more subtle and and discuss it with people face to face. Someone with a reasonable amount of intelligence can pick up quite quickly whether people are lying or hiding something.

By the way you've still ignored all my points particularly about the 53% of Leave voters against 16% of Remain voters preferring to sacrifice trade against immigration policy per the survey you quoted. Probably my imagination, making it up.

I haven't ignored any of your points. You just haven't made a coherent or valid ones in response to my initial question. Not one. A stream of personal anecdotes peppered in amongst your standard Brexit rant.

 

[Barca84]

Of course I have also worked and experienced life all over France but because you found an article that suits your agenda you know better, brilliant.

But that's beside the point. You keep straying from the subject at hand. Here we are talking about Brexit. British people objecting to Europeans. Now can you find one of your articles that says that French people object to European people being amongst them.

The subject at hand is this..

But we're talking about Brexit and the main reason for Brexit is that the British people don't want foreigners in the UK, not only the illegal ones or those that don't have a right to stay but also the legal ones. That's what Brexit is about.

That's what I've taken you to task on. Part of your response has been to infer that France is more pro foreigner than the UK. You've used your experience of your current place of residence in comparison to your former as some form of anecdotal and highly subjective evidence that the UK is less welcoming. I've provided some data that suggests otherwise.

Stop making things up

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The subject at hand is this..



That's what I've taken you to task on. Part of your response has been to infer that France is more pro foreigner than the UK. You've used your experience of your current place of residence in comparison to your former as some form of anecdotal and highly subjective evidence that the UK is less welcoming. I've provided some data that suggests otherwise.

Stop making things up

I'll get back to you later, now watching the match

 

[Barca84]

We generally find people much more welcoming and polite in the uk when we visit.

The pub argument is hit and miss tho, depends where you go.

And the kind of person you are.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And the kind of person you are.

I could ask you to explain but the same will probably happen like the last couple of times.

Amazing what people can do judging a person just by them walking into a pub.

By the way I would answer the previous post but you seemed to have assumed my identity.

 

[Barca84]

I could ask you to explain but the same will probably happen like the last couple of times.

Amazing what people can do judging a person just by them walking into a pub.

By the way I would answer the previous post but you seemed to have assumed my identity.

Or the judgement made of the pub by the person walking in there eh?

Now back to the the task at hand...

But we're talking about Brexit and the main reason for Brexit is that the British people don't want foreigners in the UK, not only the illegal ones or those that don't have a right to stay but also the legal ones. That's what Brexit is about.

Still waiting for you to back this up. No more deflection please. Or anecdotes.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But we're talking about Brexit and the main reason for Brexit is that the British people don't want foreigners in the UK, not only the illegal ones or those that don't have a right to stay but also the legal ones. That's what Brexit is about.

The subject at hand is this..

That's what I've taken you to task on. Part of your response has been to infer that France is more pro foreigner than the UK. You've used your experience of your current place of residence in comparison to your former as some form of anecdotal and highly subjective evidence that the UK is less welcoming. I've provided some data that suggests otherwise.

Stop making things up

You seem to be really struggling differentiating between Europeans and other immigrants and the difference between xenophobia and racism.

You see if somebody voted Brexit to stop freedom of movement they are not voting to stop freedom of movement of Jews, Muslims, Africans, Asians etc, the only foreigners you can not want are Europeans which on the whole are of the same race.

With more anecdotal excerpts from a couple of members of my family - two of them voted Brexit, 1, because there are too many asylum seekers and 2, the Muslim terrorist threat.

Now you're going to tell me what the main reason was, link please, and do not say it is complex, I said the main reason and as you are now resorting to semantics that means the biggest.

Of course you know that people don't lie, link, and that a change from Leave to Remain is a massive move as there were only two possible outcomes but if you prefer significant I sincerely apologise.

 

[Barca84]

You seem to be really struggling differentiating between Europeans and other immigrants and the difference between xenophobia and racism. Nope clearly illustrated upthread. More deflection

You see if somebody voted Brexit to stop freedom of movement they are not voting to stop freedom of movement of Jews, Muslims, Africans, Asians etc, the only foreigners you can not want are Europeans which on the whole are of the same race.

With more anecdotal excerpts from a couple of members of my family - two of them voted Brexit, 1, because there are too many asylum seekers and 2, the Muslim terrorist threat.

Not interested vs weight of professional research of a study of 12,000 people amongst others

Now you're going to tell me what the main reason was, link please, and do not say it is complex, I said the main reason and as you are now resorting to semantics that means the biggest.

Depending on the survey concerns about immigration or sovereignty. The two are linked of course. Survey results are linked upthread and easily found via google.

Of course you know that people don't lie, link,

I haven't said this. Making things up again. You do this a lot

and that a change from Leave to Remain is a massive move as there were only two possible outcomes but if you prefer significant I sincerely apologise

It requires a shift of less than <2%. Significant certainly not massive

You clearly can't justify your statement because its an absurd and unproveable generalisation. And you continue to make things up.

In summary:

• Concerns about immigration do not necessarily mean someone is racist or xenophobic
• Believing that EU nationals should not get a preferential immigration deal does not equate to "british people don't want foreigners in the uk"
• And yes significant has an entirely different meaning to massive

And to be honest an inability to interpret simple data, a readiness to dismiss factual research intelligence and rely instead on groundless personal belief and a handful of anecdotal evidence bears all the hallmarks of your characterisation of the leave vote.

I despair.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You clearly can't justify your statement because its an absurd and unproveable generalisation. And you continue to make things up.

In summary:

• Concerns about immigration do not necessarily mean someone is racist or xenophobic
• Believing that EU nationals should not get a preferential immigration deal does not equate to "british people don't want foreigners in the uk"
• And yes significant has an entirely different meaning to massive

And to be honest an inability to interpret simple data, a readiness to dismiss factual research intelligence and rely instead on groundless personal belief and a handful of anecdotal evidence bears all the hallmarks of your characterisation of the leave vote.

I despair.

In summary you can't answer, hilarious. Oh dear. You can't answer a simple question. Yet again you'll start resorting to personal insults soon .

You said yourself I am wrong that the main reason people voted for Brexit was about foreigners and thus you will now prove to me that it was in fact .....

And you're right I'm the only person in the whole world who has the impression that the main reason for Brexit was "foreigners".

What does "concerns about immigration" mean then, what is the problem with immigration, you can dig yourself another hole if you so wish.

 

[Barca84]

In summary you can't answer, hilarious. Oh dear. You can't answer a simple question.

I've just answered every point you've put to me.

Yet again you'll start resorting to personal insults soon .

I also haven't personally insulted you although you yourself have spent the entire post referendum period in this thread insulting vast swathes of the populace. So spare me the indignation

You said yourself I am wrong that the main reason people voted for Brexit was about foreigners and thus you will now prove to me that it was in fact .....

Nope I said this was wrong - "But we're talking about Brexit and the main reason for Brexit is that the British people don't want foreigners in the UK, not only the illegal ones or those that don't have a right to stay but also the legal ones. That's what Brexit is about" Spot the difference?

And you're right I'm the only person in the whole world who has the impression that the main reason for Brexit was "foreigners".

I didn't say this. Making things up again.

What does "concerns about immigration" mean then, what is the problem with immigration, you can dig yourself another hole if you so wish.

You could read up on people's concerns about immigration in some of the research just linked but no you dismiss it on the basis that you're convinced they're lying and are in fact just racist and xenophobic.

Thanks for your "poll" of your family as evidence for the true impetus behind Brexit and also the vague anecdotes of unwelcoming UK pubs as some sort of supplementary data. It's frankly all a bit amateur Paul and a bit bizarre from a man who has derided the leave vote for not doing their research. You could even open yourself to accusations of making things up.

Now on to the last resort of a man losing a debate by claiming it's all semantics. Words are important Paul as you should know from all of the above. Look at these two statements:

1. British people don't want foreigners in the UK

2. Some British people don't want some foreigners in the UK

2 questions.

a) Do you think the above means the same, are significantly different or massively different?
b) Which statement is provable by what we know about the referendum result and peoples reasons for voting the way they did?

Good man.

 

[Sweet Square]

There was a report not too long ago showing austerity basically pushed Leave across the winning line.

It's really not as simply as ''kick out Johnny foreigner''

 

[Barca84]

There was a report not too long ago showing austerity basically pushed Leave across the winning line.

It's really not as simply as ''kick out Johnny foreigner''

Some do simply see it that way unfortunately despite all evidence to the contrary

 

[Sweet Square]

Some do simply see it that way unfortunately despite all evidence to the contrary

Here's the article

Had Austerity Not Happened, Leave Support Could Have Been Up To 10% Lower

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

And I've posted this a few times on here as well

The British Asian Vote For Brexit Contains A Few Surprises

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/

Now all of this doesn't mean the Brexit campaign was racist and bigoted because it clearly was but the reasons why the leave won are various and not so easy to dismiss(This is why Brexit is far different to something like Trump).

 

[Mozza]

There was a report not too long ago showing austerity basically pushed Leave across the winning line.

It's really not as simply as ''kick out Johnny foreigner''

Yes, but the effects of austerity was blamed on foreigners 'public services can't cope', 'they're taking our jobs', 'they are all on benefits' etc

 

[Mozza]

Here's the article

Had Austerity Not Happened, Leave Support Could Have Been Up To 10% Lower

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/did-austerity-cause-brexit/

And I've posted this a few times on here as well

The British Asian Vote For Brexit Contains A Few Surprises

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/02/20/the-british-asian-vote-for-brexit-contains-a-few-surprises/

Now all of this doesn't mean the Brexit campaign was racist and bigoted because it clearly was but the reasons why the leave won are various and not so easy to dismiss(This is why Brexit is far different to something like Trump).

British Asians just as susceptible to bull as normal Brits. They were lied to that curbing EU migration would allow greater non EU migration

 

[Sweet Square]

Yes, but the effects of austerity was blamed on foreigners 'public services can't cope', 'they're taking our jobs', 'they are all on benefits' etc

That ''They'' wasn't just about foreigners it also included poor brits as well.

British Asians just as susceptible to bull as normal Brits. They were lied to that curbing EU migration would allow greater non EU migration

Yeah so it isn't all about immigration control(Although again a lot of it was), I also heard this argument from white brits as well.

Brexit is about a million things - Immigration, racism, xenophobia but also English nationalism, looking for political alternative, the death of the Union etc.

 

[Mozza]

That ''They'' wasn't just about foreigners it also included poor brits as well.

Not for the referendum vote

Yeah so it isn't all about immigration control(Although again a lot of it was), I also heard this argument from white brits as well.

Brexit is about a million things - Immigration, racism, xenophobia but also English nationalism, looking for political alternative, the death of the Union etc.

British Asians don't see the Asians of their homeland as foreigners, they are just people from back home. Eastern Europeans are foreigners

 

[Sweet Square]

Not for the referendum vote

Well yeah but there was politics before the referendum vote as well which contributed to leave wining.

British Asians don't see the Asians of their homeland as foreigners, they are just people from back home. Eastern Europeans are foreigners

I'm not getting your point. The allowing of greater non EU migration is a anti migration control stance and was framed that way in a referendum, the leave vote actually framed it as some sort of disgusting empire nostalgia. We can't just file this under xenophobia, yes xenophobia played its part but it's also the the warped view of the history of the British Empire, how minorities adapt and see themselves in Britain and English nationalism.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

There was a report not too long ago showing austerity basically pushed Leave across the winning line.

It's really not as simply as ''kick out Johnny foreigner''

Presume you at least can differentiate between main reason and the only reason. In other news austerity was caused by the EU? The Uk have just finished it but they're still in the EU.

 

[Sweet Square]

Presume you at least can differentiate between main reason and the only reason.

There's a good case that austerity was one of the main reasons. I can't be arsed looking back at your arguing but did you mention austerity as being on of the major causes ?

In other news austerity was caused by the EU? The Uk have just finished it but they're still in the EU.

What are you on about here ?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Thanks for your "poll" of your family as evidence for the true impetus behind Brexit and also the vague anecdotes of unwelcoming UK pubs as some sort of supplementary data. It's frankly all a bit amateur Paul and a bit bizarre from a man who has derided the leave vote for not doing their research. You could even open yourself to accusations of making things up.

Now on to the last resort of a man losing a debate by claiming it's all semantics. Words are important Paul as you should know from all of the above. Look at these two statements:

1. British people don't want foreigners in the UK

2. Some British people don't want some foreigners in the UK

2 questions.

a) Do you think the above means the same, are significantly different or massively different?
b) Which statement is provable by what we know about the referendum result and peoples reasons for voting the way they did?

Good man.

I am losing the debate, haha. What was the main reason again?

Yes of course all the Remainers voted for Brexit and all the Brexiters are xenophobes, is that what you want to hear.

Someone posted the reasons for Brexit which you ignored, oh yes concerns about immigration, would that be immigration of pot noodles, Yorkshire Terriers or foreigners.
As has been shown the government have control over immigration, so what are the concerns. EU citizens make a net contribution, non-EU immigrants don't, maybe the concern is in the wrong place.

Still waiting for your evidence that French people have "concerns" about EU citizens.

Do you read your news in the paper delivered by your paperboy or your media distribution officer and does your rubbish get collected by your waste disposal officer or your dustman.
Personal anecdotes are now not accepted, you read too much into them and make things up but you ignore research unless it suits your agenda.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

There's a good case that austerity was one of the main reasons. I can't be arsed looking back at your arguing but did you mention austerity as being on of the major causes ?


What are you on about here ?

I said the main reason was about foreigners, I didn't mention what number 2 , 3 and 4 were.

As people voted leave because of austerity caused by ... and leaving the EU would have changed that? makes no sense.