Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Barca84 said:
Already linked. Thanks @4bars :

http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Carl_Reasons_Voting.pdf

Your position is quite neatly touched upon in the summary. I expect you'll recognise it. Refusing to acknowledge that there are clearly identified multiple and complex reasons for the Brexit vote, including but absolutely not singularly due to issues of xenophobia, makes you sound as ill informed and prejudicial as a voting demographic you consistently demonise. Here's a basic wiki page for you that explores a lot of the contributing factors to the vote and I think you'd benefit from following up on some of the links in the references. It's actually fascinating stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_vote_in_favour_of_Brexit#Immigration

And finally Ashcroft's referendum day survey:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/



Here's the nub. According to 4bars paul et al it does. To "have immigration concerns" is viewed as no more than a thinly disguised euphemism for being racist and or xenophobic. No doubt it is for some but absolutely not for all.

Some required reading for anyone who thinks, like paul does, that "British people don't want foreigners in the UK":

http://nationalconversation.uk/wp-c...onversation-exec-summary-2018-09-v2-PRINT.pdf

which as Lisa Nandy correctly summarises "showed that across the divide there is a sensible, committed majority in Britain whose concern for decency, humanity, kindness and fairness echoes strongly. They not only demand, but deserve, a greater say in the future of their country and the power to build the ambitious, inclusive communities they long for"

Good reading if you can take your fingers out of your ears long enough to scroll through it.
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Excellent, you do my work for me:

Quote from your quotes:
Most people want EU migration to be better managed Many of the concerns expressed in the citizens’ panels focused on migration from the EU. Participants felt that the UK government had little control over who came here and that they were unable to exclude those who presented a security risk or had unspent criminal convictions. There was very little understanding of the current free movement rules, with most of the citizens’ panels believing that EU nationals could move to the UK and have immediate- and for some, preferential- access to the welfare system.

As has been proved EU citizens give a benefit to the UK's economy. As your examples show they didn't know what they were voting for.
The UK has complete control over their borders, they're just not very good at managing them. That is not the EU's fault.
Most immigration is from outside the EU, are Brexiters getting confused?

I took my own poll of people who voted for and against Brexit. Staggering when people don't/can't lie.

Can we have a poll after people have taken the lie detector test?

What about immigration forcing up house prices/rent etc - I bought my first property in 1977, in 1981 I sold it for double what I paid for it, must have been all those Polish and Bulgarian immigrants.

Now let's assume there are other reasons:

Laws imposed by the EU that Brexiters were aware of - more than three years after the debate started you would have thought that at least one person out of 17.4 million could quote one, nope.

Sovereignty / parliament - They have no say? They can't vote to leave because they have no say and have to accept any deal the EU throws at them?oh the lies.
How many people voted for Theresa May, was she or Jeremy Corbyn on your ballot paper, how many of the House of Lords have you voted for.
Are you saying Brexiters don't understand how the EU works?

Blue passports, no wasn't even thought of at the time of the referendum.

What else is there, oh yes, the NHS - only this week the government have proved that the reason the NHS was short of funds, was their austerity programme which is now "over" but they're still in the EU and if they get transition will be for some time yet. Yet another falsehood.

Ah yes, leaving the customs union so they can make their own trade deals, so they voted to close the Irish border and cause untold damage to the freeflow of trade. Can we take a poll of how many Brexiters knew the customs union existed, what it means and what the consequences of leaving it are.

Maybe something else I've forgotten - so basically where are we now - it's either ignorance/stupidity or xenophobia - can't be racism because most Europeans are of the same race. Xenophobia is a branch of ignorance and stupidity.
 
Penna said:
We certainly haven't encountered any anti-British sentiment in our semi-rural, non-diverse village here in Italy. In fact, we feel welcomed. People seem to be happy that Brits and other Europeans are here - and this is not a sophisticated metropolis.

A friend of ours (British) who lives and works here had a family tragedy last year. The way local people rallied around him and his family was absolutely heart-warming. Their kindness and generosity was amazing.
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Exactly, I live in a similar environment, you couldn't feel more welcomed. They love the opportunity to share cultures of other people. A real community spirit, something I never experienced in all my life in the UK.
 
You have to be pretty naive to think anti-foreigner sentiment wasn't behind Brexit for the majority.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Excellent, you do my work for me:

Quote from your quotes:
Most people want EU migration to be better managed Many of the concerns expressed in the citizens’ panels focused on migration from the EU. Participants felt that the UK government had little control over who came here and that they were unable to exclude those who presented a security risk or had unspent criminal convictions. There was very little understanding of the current free movement rules, with most of the citizens’ panels believing that EU nationals could move to the UK and have immediate- and for some, preferential- access to the welfare system.

As has been proved EU citizens give a benefit to the UK's economy. As your examples show they didn't know what they were voting for.
The UK has complete control over their borders, they're just not very good at managing them. That is not the EU's fault.
Most immigration is from outside the EU, are Brexiters getting confused?

I took my own poll of people who voted for and against Brexit. Staggering when people don't/can't lie.

Can we have a poll after people have taken the lie detector test?

What about immigration forcing up house prices/rent etc - I bought my first property in 1977, in 1981 I sold it for double what I paid for it, must have been all those Polish and Bulgarian immigrants.

Now let's assume there are other reasons:

Laws imposed by the EU that Brexiters were aware of - more than three years after the debate started you would have thought that at least one person out of 17.4 million could quote one, nope.

Sovereignty / parliament - They have no say? They can't vote to leave because they have no say and have to accept any deal the EU throws at them?oh the lies.
How many people voted for Theresa May, was she or Jeremy Corbyn on your ballot paper, how many of the House of Lords have you voted for.
Are you saying Brexiters don't understand how the EU works?

Blue passports, no wasn't even thought of at the time of the referendum.

What else is there, oh yes, the NHS - only this week the government have proved that the reason the NHS was short of funds, was their austerity programme which is now "over" but they're still in the EU and if they get transition will be for some time yet. Yet another falsehood.

Ah yes, leaving the customs union so they can make their own trade deals, so they voted to close the Irish border and cause untold damage to the freeflow of trade. Can we take a poll of how many Brexiters knew the customs union existed, what it means and what the consequences of leaving it are.

Maybe something else I've forgotten - so basically where are we now - it's either ignorance/stupidity or xenophobia - can't be racism because most Europeans are of the same race. Xenophobia is a branch of ignorance and stupidity.
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Most of the above I'm not debating with you and I agree on. So we have a lot of your usual waffle and deflection here that has zero relation to why I took you to task re your continued sweeping and incorrect statements re the Brexit demographic. I think the bolded part though is particularly illuminating. You're a man who decries this entire vote as ignorant and stupid but prefers to rely on his own ad hoc poll of a handful of people over substantial and accepted research? Really? And you continually repeat this assertion that the leavers are just lying? I can only assume you must have some sort of anecdotal impetus for this train of thought that everyone is really a card carrying racist? Surely it's more than a handful of conversations over a glass of red? Share your reasons and let's weigh them against what the research and the intelligence that's in the public domain tells us?

Campaigns such as Hope not Hate work because they seek to bridge that divide between the entrenched of which you are one and will remain until you at least make some attempt to understand the other.
 
Smores said:
You have to be pretty naive to think anti-foreigner sentiment wasn't behind Brexit for the majority.
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Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.

Aside from this - the UK is an island nation and has never fully embraced Europe in the same way mainland countries have - it's in our nature due to geography.
 
balaks said:
Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.
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Absolutely, deflected blame was part of that anti-foreigner sentiment rather than just pure racism. Xenophobia is usually a fairer description for the majority.

Think this place has already gone back and forth multiple times on the polls, there's as many either way but they nearly all disguise reasons. Most will not tick a box that puts themselves into a bad reflection, it's always wrapped up in false logic born out of the emotion first.

Over recent days it's been the same with Trump voters who say on camera they don't like Trumps behaviour but they like the economy or some other bollocks so they'll vote for them. It's exactly why we have the shy tory/republican in every election throwing the polls off.
 
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Smores said:
You have to be pretty naive to think anti-foreigner sentiment wasn't behind Brexit for the majority.
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Why? I'd say the xenophobic, and the outright racist, would be represented in those surveyed who stated they voted leave due to immigration concerns. Do you believe people can have concerns over immigration and not be xenophobic or outright racist? If not why not? And just to recap I'm pulling this fella up on this wild statement here..

Paul the Wolf said:
the main reason for Brexit is that the British people don't want foreigners in the UK, not only the illegal ones or those that don't have a right to stay but also the legal ones. That's what Brexit is about.
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and providing him with all the research to the contrary. He's done his own poll though.......
 
balaks said:
Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.

Aside from this - the UK is an island nation and has never fully embraced Europe in the same way mainland countries have - it's in our nature due to geography.
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Agree with all of this except the bolded part. It's a reality for many and not a perception.
 
Barca84 said:
Why? I'd say the xenophobic, and the outright racist, would be represented in those surveyed who stated they voted leave due to immigration concerns. Do you believe people can have concerns over immigration and not be xenophobic or outright racist? If not why not? And just to recap I'm pulling this fella up on this wild statement here..



and providing him with all the research to the contrary. He's done his own poll though.......
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I think a demographic very defensive of appearing racist or xenophobic find a more palatable reason which is hard to capture in very basic polling, however the main polls completely failed in their questions or purposefully wanted a set outcome.

You could of course hate foreigners but see housing or the economy as the more justifiable reason and thus vote that as your reason. Thus a ranked order or main reason poll is meaningless as a defence of immigration sentiment.

I've yet to see a sentiment based poll with a scoring across each category which is what should be done. You'd still have those shy about their true feelings or those who cover up but at least then you'd see someone scoring a 10 on say housing also scored 9 on immigration and not have someone picking up the data and saying "oh he actually voted Brexit because of housing".
 
Barca84 said:
Most of the above I'm not debating with you and I agree on. So we have a lot of your usual waffle and deflection here that has zero relation to why I took you to task re your continued sweeping and incorrect statements re the Brexit demographic. I think the bolded part though is particularly illuminating. You're a man who decries this entire vote as ignorant and stupid but prefers to rely on his own ad hoc poll of a handful of people over substantial and accepted research? Really? And you continually repeat this assertion that the leavers are just lying? I can only assume you must have some sort of anecdotal impetus for this train of thought that everyone is really a card carrying racist? Surely it's more than a handful of conversations over a glass of red? Share your reasons and let's weigh them against what the research and the intelligence that's in the public domain tells us?

Campaigns such as Hope not Hate work because they seek to bridge that divide between the entrenched of which you are one and will remain until you at least make some attempt to understand the other.
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I have listed all the other possible reasons. So if I accept that I am wrong in my opinion, then the only alternative is that you are saying Brexiters are ignorant. And no I'm not basing my opinion on my own poll, I have had the same opinion throughout this farce.
I have not said they are racist but xenophobic. You don't seem to understand the difference.
 
The funny thing is that, Brexit is the only thing keeping her in a job.
I don't know how a failed Home Sec gets to become PM.
Under normal circumstances, the Windrush, which happened under her watch should have buried her .
 
balaks said:
Xenophobia and ignorance were factors in my opinion. However another major factor was the impact of the economic crash a decade ago has had on the perception that many people are less well off now and that the general way forward is downwards rather than ever upwards. Instead of blaming the banks, etc. and those that actually caused the mess a lot of people believed the narrative that it was immigration that was making things worse.

Aside from this - the UK is an island nation and has never fully embraced Europe in the same way mainland countries have - it's in our nature due to geography.
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Barca84 said:
Agree with all of this except the bolded part. It's a reality for many and not a perception.
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You'll tie yourself up in a knot in a minute if you're not careful.
 
Adisa said:
The funny thing is that, Brexit is the only thing keeping her in a job.
I don't know how a failed Home Sec gets to become PM.
Under normal circumstances, the Windrush, which happened under her watch should have buried her .
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The alternatives seem to be even worse. BJ or JRM.
 
Smores said:
I think a demographic very defensive of appearing racist or xenophobic find a more palatable reason which is hard to capture in very basic polling, however the main polls completely failed in their questions or purposefully wanted a set outcome.

You could of course hate foreigners but see housing or the economy as the more justifiable reason and thus vote that as your reason. Thus a ranked order or main reason poll is meaningless as a defence of immigration sentiment.

I've yet to see a sentiment based poll with a scoring across each category which is what should be done. You'd still have those shy about their true feelings or those who cover up but at least then you'd see someone scoring a 10 on say housing also scored 9 on immigration and not have someone picking up the data and saying "oh he actually voted Brexit because of housing".
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As linked above there's some interesting stuff re this in here..

http://nationalconversation.uk/wp-c...onversation-exec-summary-2018-09-v2-PRINT.pdf

Some of the summary findings:

"Most people who have taken part in the citizens’ panels are what we have termed ‘balancers’, who see both the pressures and gains of immigration"

It's perfectly legitimate to have concerns over immigration whilst seeing the gains of it and not being xenophobic or racist.

"Face-to-face discussion is different to the online debate on immigration"

Here everything is so polarised as we see in this thread eg everyone is racist/thick/ignorant. The debate in the community is different.

"Contribution, control and fairness were common themes"

While the citizens’ panels wanted immigration to be controlled, they also wanted the system to be fair, both to migrants and to receiving communities. There was also a consensus that migrants and refugees must be treated fairly and humanely. No-one in the citizens’ panels wanted law-abiding EU nationals who were presently living in the UK to be asked to return home after the UK left the EU.

None of this fits the narrative of the majority in this thread and lays a lie to the claim made upthread that I initially took objection to.

Clear anti-muslim attitudes are highlighted though and in particular since the last series of terror attacks. That's the worrying bit.
 
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Fully Fledged said:
Yeah it’s British people they don’t want to move here.
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:lol:

Kentonio said:
This feels big enough to bring down a Prime Minister to me.
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Normally you would say so, but it just feels like nothing comes of any revelations atm. Everyone seems to be covering up both here and in the US. Hopefully Mueller gets something on Farage and dominoes start falling. I have no faith in UK.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
You'll tie yourself up in a knot in a minute if you're not careful.
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Paul. Believing immigration is contributing to making things worse does not equate to not wanting foreigners in the UK.

As above. Community research on immigration shows people can see the pluses as well as the minuses. having concerns about immigration does not necessarily mean you are racist or xenophobic.

The shutting and shouting down of the debate, by the likes of yourself, only contributes to the entrenched positions of both sides.
 
Barca84 said:
Paul. Believing immigration is contributing to making things worse does not equate to not wanting foreigners in the UK.

As above. Community research on immigration shows people can see the pluses as well as the minuses. having concerns about immigration does not necessarily mean you are racist or xenophobic.

The shutting and shouting down of the debate, by the likes of yourself, only contributes to the entrenched positions of both sides.
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Why would people believe that immigration is contributing to making things worse unless they had been lied to. If they have been lied to the problem is the people who are lying to them and the people believe the lies because like all the other reasons that people believed contributed to Brexit they never checked whether they were being lied to.
Even then, if believing immigration is a contributor , why do these people not believe it is British people or their government that are causing their woes, my definition of xenophobia may not be the same as yours, people don't even realise they are.

No-one is shutting the debate, the whole theme of this thread has been to ask people why they voted/believed what they did, the usual outcome was that their beliefs were disproved and they'd disappear.
Lately it is basically full of remainers commenting on the latest developments.
 
Adisa said:
The funny thing is that, Brexit is the only thing keeping her in a job.
I don't know how a failed Home Sec gets to become PM.
Under normal circumstances, the Windrush, which happened under her watch should have buried her .
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Isnt it a case of everyone else that was up for the job was an even bigger cnut? The tories I imagine want someone that can at least attempt to hide their contempt for the people of the UK.
 
Kentonio said:
“Theresa May STOPPED security services probing Arron Banks in run-up to Brexit referendum - as ex-Culture Secretary says PM 'has serious questions to answer'”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...uiUGRhwnF5fHo5KybjAhWCQ_uijLYUuOLIRpqvU6z9Bsw

Jesus...
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The most shocking this there is that its the Mail reporting it.

I supposed they've accepted there's no stopping Brexit now and its time to destroy May, scapegoat her for everything and pave the way for Boris.
 
Simbo said:
The most shocking this there is that its the Mail reporting it.

I supposed they've accepted there's no stopping Brexit now and its time to destroy May, scapegoat her for everything and pave the way for Boris.
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That is exactly what will happen. She will take the fall for everything.
 
Simbo said:
The most shocking this there is that its the Mail reporting it.

I supposed they've accepted there's no stopping Brexit now and its time to destroy May, scapegoat her for everything and pave the way for Boris.
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They had a change of editor, this one is a remainer.
 
Barca84 said:
As linked above there's some interesting stuff re this in here..

http://nationalconversation.uk/wp-c...onversation-exec-summary-2018-09-v2-PRINT.pdf

Some of the summary findings:

"Most people who have taken part in the citizens’ panels are what we have termed ‘balancers’, who see both the pressures and gains of immigration"

It's perfectly legitimate to have concerns over immigration whilst seeing the gains of it and not being xenophobic or racist.

"Face-to-face discussion is different to the online debate on immigration"

Here everything is so polarised as we see in this thread eg everyone is racist/thick/ignorant. The debate in the community is different.

"Contribution, control and fairness were common themes"

While the citizens’ panels wanted immigration to be controlled, they also wanted the system to be fair, both to migrants and to receiving communities. There was also a consensus that migrants and refugees must be treated fairly and humanely. No-one in the citizens’ panels wanted law-abiding EU nationals who were presently living in the UK to be asked to return home after the UK left the EU.

None of this fits the narrative of the majority in this thread and lays a lie to the claim made upthread that I initially took objection to.

Clear anti-muslim attitudes are highlighted though and in particular since the last series of terror attacks. That's the worrying bit.
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Having had the chance to read through this completely , there is absolutely nothing that is at all surprising and is exactly as expected.
The answers on line and face-to-face are totally different, so which one is correct bearing in mind that how many people will admit to being xenophobic to someone's face rather than anonymously on line, likewise not many would admit it on here because they would be banned.

Extract - what a surprise.
These options also divided respondents along social lines and by political affiliation, much more so than the other policy choices we posed in the survey. Remain voters (59%), Labour voters (50%), 18-24s (47%), students (56%) and those living in large cities (45%) were more likely to favour compromising on freedom of movement in return for a better deal for business. In contrast 53% of Leave voters believed that the UK should not offer a preferential immigration deal to the EU, even if business would lose out, compared with 16% of Remain voters. Conservative voters, older people, those without higher level qualifications and those who live outside big cities were also more likely to favour this option.

In summary, overall it is a criticism of the handling of the government's immigration policy and these people are recommending stuff which is already there but not implemented. This further reveals their lack of understanding of the matter.
The real problem is the reason people think like this and this is what needs tackling but it is not in the interest of the government to tackle this matter.

Over two years after the referendum and how many people do you think have changed their attitude/mind, I would guess not many, do you? the evidence is all there to be seen but the Brexiters are not interested otherwise everyone would be calling for this idiotic decision to be overturned.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
You mean there is a majority of people in NL who would like to see other Europeans go back to their countries?
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I don't know if there is a majority but lets not forget who the 2nd biggest party was in the last GE here. I'm sure there is no concerns when you live in the Booneys but in big cities it can be different, people living on top of each other get the nark sometimes.
 
Stanley Road said:
I don't know if there is a majority but lets not forget who the 2nd biggest party was in the last GE here. I'm sure there is no concerns when you live in the Booneys but in big cities it can be different, people living on top of each other get the nark sometimes.
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Isn’t it usually the other way around when it comes to polling on immigration?
 
Stanley Road said:
I don't know if there is a majority but lets not forget who the 2nd biggest party was in the last GE here. I'm sure there is no concerns when you live in the Booneys but in big cities it can be different, people living on top of each other get the nark sometimes.
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But as shown in the UK survey, it is those who don't live in the cities and who have least contact with foreigners that are more likely to be against immigration.

Le Pen came second in France too, but the anti-immigration sector of the public isn't directed towards Europeans. I'm not denying there is a section of French people who are anti-immigration.
Here we are talking about Brexit, not overall immigration, not asylum seekers nor refugees nor illegal immigrants nor immigrants from other parts of the world, that's another subject.
 
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