Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[villain]

The referendum should never have happened then as we already had a referendum where the people voted overwhelmingly to be in the EU.

Again, blame Big Davey.
I didn't vote for the clown, but a large amount of people did and he put it in his manifesto.

we certainly will agree Villain, no two people see exactly the same argument.

The fact you are asking me my own question means we have no idea what percentage voted on lies or their education but enough people have been quoted, interviewed and told me and probably yourself personally that they either don't want the EU deciding for them that we must buy square bananas anymore, that they want a return to the British Empire, that they want the NHS to get what we pay French farmers, fishermen, steelworkers or car industry workers, that they don't want Polish people to take their jobs . - that there will be no shortage of jobs in the UK once we leave the EU and on and on to make my mind up that it is a fair proportion of Vote Leavers to have drunk the Kool Aid, that we don't need YouGov to tell us what the split is

My own business Partner voted Leave and we haven't even discussed why because we'd fall out for the first time, but I've a fair idea and he's educated too but his father is a working class Brummie who told me that we have to stop EU workers taking up our jobs. Our business has relied on qualified people from all over Europe since we started over 15 years ago and now we are struggling to find staff, we can't do our work without them. That's how ridiculous people's beliefs are over what they've been told.

Glad to hear you are not really apathetic Villain. We need to get involved at our local levels, campaign against politicians with bad records or get them de-selected.

Always a pleasure debating with you Oates!

I have no idea about percentages of those who voted based on their education, I think I remember it was mostly a generational split. I do believe xenophobia played a big part in it also, and honestly I don't think most people really cared about the NHS or they didnt vote, because of the NHS.
But that's just me assuming things, a lot of brexiters i've met don't actually fit that mould - young, living in London, working in business/finance/law/engineering/tech - come from immigrant families, use private healthcare and are educated - which completely blew my mind, but it happens more and more frequently when I have these conversations.
As a result i'm trying not to make any more assumptions about the profile of a brexiter looks like, considering we havent met all of them.

My mum is an african immigrant who believes there's too many immigrants in the UK which is why she voted, I mean it literally makes no sense! I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Leave voters who would say the same about Remain voters too.

We can definitely agree on the last line - more people need to get involved at local levels, and keep up with it - politics remains the way it is because not enough people put pressure on our elected officials. Change is entirely possible if we put the work in.

 

[Green_Red]

We need to start doing tests before politicians can go for office.
In the real world, there is absolutely no job that doesn't require a vetting process to see if someone is mentally capable, why should it be any different for politicians?

I feel the same way but democracy is all about, for the people, of the people and by the people. Refusing anybody the right to contest an election for any reason is undemocratic.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Honestly the one thing dumber than holding a first referendum is holding a second one. It was a referendum not a math test. You can't say: ah, I'm sorry guys, but you got it wrong the first time, try again!

When can they hold another one?

 

[oates]

Honestly the one thing dumber than holding a first referendum is holding a second one. It was a referendum not a math test. You can't say: ah, I'm sorry guys, but you got it wrong the first time, try again!

If the first one was dumb then how do you propose righting the dumb?

 

[KirkDuyt]

When can they hold another one?

The vote was brexit. So brexit it is. If after some time brexit wasn't a good idea after all, you could hold on to repeal it I suppose.

Personally don't think you should hold a binding referendum at all.

@oates
If you decide to hold a referendum you should stick by the decision, if not, what is the point of holding one at all? It's basically a big middlefinger to the people who voted in it.

You can right the wrong by abolishing referendums in general. Then, if in the next elections a cabinet opposes to brexit is voted in, they can repeal it.

I think brexit is a terrible idea, but if you're laws state a referendum is binding, you have to stick by it's decision. Like it or not. Though some research shows that in the UK referendums are not actually binding?

 

[Raees]

Honestly the one thing dumber than holding a first referendum is holding a second one. It was a referendum not a math test. You can't say: ah, I'm sorry guys, but you got it wrong the first time, try again!

Why bother holding elections then? Might as well hold one and keep the same leader until they die and then hold a new one after their death.

This decision is far too important for it to be left based on the decision of one referendum especially when the consequences can be cataclysmic from an economic perspective. I think a second referendum is inevitable as even if they did a no deal brexit within a few years they would have to try and overturn it as it would be clear it has been a disaster.

 

[Honest John]

Xenophobes were a factor. Old feckers hankering for the days of Empire. Some who didn't like the fact that the EU council are not elected. Others didn't like the prospect of a United States of Europe. If you add all these together there would not have been enough to win the referendum.

What we had is 40 years of decline in large swathes of the north east and other parts of the UK. These people have been woefully let down by successive governments of all colours. They were going to vote against any recommendation that any government made - especially if it was Tory.

That for me is what swung things.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The vote was brexit. So brexit it is. If after some time brexit wasn't a good idea after all, you could hold on to repeal it I suppose.

Personally don't think you should hold a binding referendum at all.

@oates
If you decide to hold a referendum you should stick by the decision, if not, what is the point of holding one at all? It's basically a big middlefinger to the people who voted in it.

You can right the wrong by abolishing referendums in general. Then, if in the next elections a cabinet opposes to brexit is voted in, they can repeal it.

I think brexit is a terrible idea, but if you're laws state a referendum is binding, you have to stick by it's decision. Like it or not. Though some research shows that in the UK referendums are not actually binding?

The referendum is not binding, it's advisory.
I agree it shouldn't have gone to a referendum but is that it forever? I voted in the 1975 referendum, couldn't imagine all these years later a bunch of fools would reverse it.

 

[oates]

@oates
If you decide to hold a referendum you should stick by the decision, if not, what is the point of holding one at all? It's basically a big middlefinger to the people who voted in it.

You can right the wrong by abolishing referendums in general. Then, if in the next elections a cabinet opposes to brexit is voted in, they can repeal it.

I think brexit is a terrible idea, but if you're laws state a referendum is binding, you have to stick by it's decision. Like it or not. Though some research shows that in the UK referendums are not actually binding?

I think the damage will be near irreparable, so costly in businesses failed and in redundancies as to be impossible to return to the same position . If you are going to say have another 'referendum' by voting in a government that will repeal it why not prevent the self inflicted harm now?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Xenophobes were a factor. Old feckers hankering for the days of Empire. Some who didn't like the fact that the EU council are not elected. Others didn't like the prospect of a United States of Europe. If you add all these together there would not have been enough to win the referendum.

What we had is 40 years of decline in large swathes of the north east and other parts of the UK. These people have been woefully let down by successive governments of all colours. They were going to vote against any recommendation that any government made - especially if it was Tory.

That for me is what swung things.

This is so frustrating - The Eu council are elected, they're the heads of government. Not only did they not vote against Tories they voted for Tories so they could have a referendum.

 

[afrocentricity]

I don't think I'm missing the point just that your example is a bit shite. Also the Iraq example doesn't work at all.

Ok so you were one of those that I alluded to then? Whatever...

 

[KirkDuyt]

Why bother holding elections then? Might as well hold one and keep the same leader until they die and then hold a new one after their death.

This decision is far too important for it to be left based on the decision of one referendum especially when the consequences can be cataclysmic from an economic perspective. I think a second referendum is inevitable as even if they did a no deal brexit within a few years they would have to try and overturn it as it would be clear it has been a disaster.

That's not what I'm arguing. A better analogy would be to hold elections and afterwards tell people, please vote again, but this time, don't vote for that party, because that's obviously the wrong choice.

If the referendum is not binding just have the cabinet say; we shouldn't have held a referendum, our bad, we're not doing brexit, it's a dumb idea and we're not holding any more referendums about subject matter this complex. The other option; a second referendum, is much more risky. What if the outcome is Brexit again? Then you really have to go through with it and as Oates says the damage will be near irreparable. I'm not saying you should never have a vote on the same thing twice, but not in a timespan this short.

Asking the people to vote on Brexit is like asking a crowd of newborn babies to vote for the correct answer on so you want to be a millionaire. They have no fecking clue and I wouldn't put it past the human race to make the "wrong" choice again.

 

[Honest John]

This is so frustrating - The Eu council are elected, they're the heads of government. Not only did they not vote against Tories they voted for Tories so they could have a referendum.

That and the actual result are not necessarily linked. Not all Tory voters voted leave. The fact that a referendum was in the manifesto may not have won votes from other parties. Many Tories would have remained loyal regardless of whether a vote on the EU was included. And don't forget the demise of the Lib Dems in 2015, the continued need to reduce the deficit. Those things played a greater factor in Cameron's overall majority than the promise of a referendum IMO.

 

[afrocentricity]

If Remain won the vote, and Farage and his cronies were marching for a second referendum, would you be in here saying 'well, is that a bad thing?'

If you want to go down the slope of being able to vote on issues again, then you have to be consistent and accept that the other side will be able to do the same thing - and it's not always going to work in your favour.

I'm much more in favour of improving the way in which we receive information about politics, that wont stop ignorant people from voting but it will make the information more accessible for those who do want to be informed.

I'm all for the reforms that you want but how about we deal with this pressing issue first?

What if the outcome is Brexit again?

Then we Brexit. Is really not that complicated. If the people vote to Brexit by clear majority based on what we do know now, all cards on the table... Then we Brexit. With a first mandate and direction and everyone shuts the feck up and gets on with it.

Worst thing is I don't even think we'll get a 2nd ref because I don't even think it's the people that are driving this. I think it's an earner for some and a power play by others. We as a country are getting taken along for the ride... Imho. Feel free to disagree.

I sure as hell aren't gonna tell anyone not to march or try to affect change tho. I admire anyone that wants to get up and actually do something. I didn't march but I would have had I known earlier and not been busy.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Then we Brexit..

And that's why I'm opposed to holding a referendum in the first place

 

[villain]

I'm all for the reforms that you want but how about we deal with this pressing issue first?

So if Remain won, and Farage was angling for a second referendum - you would agree and suggest we should vote again?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The board of Manchester United have decided to let the supporters decide the future of the club because they are afraid of being voted out at the next board meeting.

The supporters no longer want foreign players playing for the club and are also fed up with being dictated to by the Premier League.
52% voted to Leave the Premier League and join a lower division with the promise of the most vocal supporters Morris Bonson, Jacob Cream Crackers, Nigel 'the grinner" Garage and Ron Jedward that the club would win the Champions League, the World Cup and the Intergalactic Superstars Cup.
Jacob Cream Crackers later admitted that it could take 50 years to achieve.

The Chief Executive tried after two years of negotiations to join the Championship but negotiations failed and the club joined the North Western Counties District League. Because the club could no longer attract sponsors or investors most of the players left, they could not attract or afford new players and gradually fell into financial ruin.

The 48% who voted to stay in the PL knew that it would be a disastrous move but no-one would listen. What have these idiots done to our club, they cried.

 

[sullydnl]

To my mind it all depends on whether circumstances have changed enough for a second vote to be justified.

For example, it isn't that long since Scotland voted against independence. However, I think think you could definitely argue that Brexit would change things enough for calls for another referendum on the issue to be justified. After all, the risk of leaving the EU was a key argument against independence, Scotland subsequently voted to stay in the EU but now it is facing having to leave it regardless. That materially changes the terms of the original vote, I think.

Has Brexit reached that point yet? Probably not. Maybe it will have by the time a final deal (or no deal) is on the table though.

 

[afrocentricity]

So if Remain won, and Farage was angling for a second referendum - you would agree and suggest we should vote again?

If remain won by 2% and it turned out that we were fed untruths and things started to unfold differently than we were told they would?

Depending on the actual details that came to pass I might even have been looking to change my vote myself. This is the crazy thing, you or others aren't even entertaining the thought that given the passing of time and changing of facts and situations some leave voters might want to actually change their votes. Regardless of what they say in public or polls...

It's a dynamic situation and things change I don't even know why this is such a controversial position?

It's not about Farage, Boris, Cameron the NHS, UKIP, the EU, etc etc... My position is based on the tiny margin and the lies and misinformation.

And that's why I'm opposed to holding a referendum in the first place

Well it's done isn't it so what do you suggest mate? Because the way I see it these are the only people I see putting up any fight. Props to them... My kinda people.

 

[KirkDuyt]

To my mind it all depends on whether circumstances have changed enough for a second vote to be justified.

For example, it isn't that long since Scotland voted against independence. However, I think think you could definitely argue that Brexit would change things enough for calls for another referendum on the issue to be justified. After all, the risk of leaving the EU was a key argument against independence, Scotland subsequently voted to stay in the EU but now it is facing having to leave it regardless. That materially changes the terms of the original vote, I think.

Has Brexit reached that point yet? Probably not. Maybe it will have by the time a final deal (or no deal) is on the table though.

This is a good point. If the circumstances change considerably, hold another vote. The only change here is that the brexiteers mislead the people, but the people are mislead in all elections. It's simply what politicians do.

@afrocentricity have the cabinet say; sorry we fecked up, we're not doing brexit, period.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That and the actual result are not necessarily linked. Not all Tory voters voted leave. The fact that a referendum was in the manifesto may not have won votes from other parties. Many Tories would have remained loyal regardless of whether a vote on the EU was included. And don't forget the demise of the Lib Dems in 2015, the continued need to reduce the deficit. Those things played a greater factor in Cameron's overall majority than the promise of a referendum IMO.

Agree but there was significant movement. Voters also left UKIP to get a referendum knowing that UKIP would never be in government any more than the LibDems would.
If I were still living in the UK, although a traditional Tory voter I couldn't vote for them now, I couldn't vote for Labour because of Corbyn and anyone else is a wasted vote. So glad I don't live there now.

 

[afrocentricity]

So can someone bring me up to speed because tbh I hardly been following last 6 months give or take, what is Labour position in all this. And Corbyn? I've noticed he is no longer Jesus incarnate so what's his position? Give me a brief summary or a link or whatever...

 

[Stobzilla]

Agree but there was significant movement. Voters also left UKIP to get a referendum knowing that UKIP would never be in government any more than the LibDems would.
If I were still living in the UK, although a traditional Tory voter I couldn't vote for them now, I couldn't vote for Labour because of Corbyn and anyone else is a wasted vote. So glad I don't live there now.

So democracy to you is about winning ?

 

[horsechoker]

So can someone bring me up to speed because tbh I hardly been following last 6 months give or take, what is Labour position in all this. And Corbyn? I've noticed he is no longer Jesus incarnate so what's his position? Give me a brief summary or a link or whatever...

Supports Brexit but won't publicly say so, appears to be playing both sides to keep himself popular.

 

[afrocentricity]

Supports Brexit but won't publicly say so, appears to be playing both sides to keep himself popular.

Why? On principles? Business interests? Politics?

Assume you are taking about Corbyn only right? Or is it the party?

Haven't been following because I was resigned to the shitty situation. The title change on this thread tweaked my interest...

 

[villain]

If remain won by 2% and it turned out that we were fed untruths and things started to unfold differently than we were told they would?

Depending on the actual details that came to pass I might even have been looking to change my vote myself. This is the crazy thing, you or others aren't even entertaining the thought that given the passing of time and changing of facts and situations some leave voters might want to actually change their votes. Regardless of what they say in public or polls...

It's a dynamic situation and things change I don't even know why this is such a controversial position?

It's not about Farage, Boris, Cameron the NHS, UKIP, the EU, etc etc... My position is based on the tiny margin and the lies and misinformation.


Well it's done isn't it so what do you suggest mate? Because the way I see it these are the only people I see putting up any fight. Props to them... My kinda people.

Yeah that’s what I’m suggesting, assuming nothing else changed but Remain won by however small a margin.

Would you want to Farage to have his second referendum?
It’s a simple yes or no question really

I don’t doubt that there would be people who originally voted Leave who would change their vote to Remain.
I don’t doubt that there would be people who would do the opposite, or didn’t vote the first time around but would vote the second time around - and that doesn’t necessarily mean they would vote to remain either.

 

[Oldyella]

Xenophobes were a factor. Old feckers hankering for the days of Empire. Some who didn't like the fact that the EU council are not elected. Others didn't like the prospect of a United States of Europe. If you add all these together there would not have been enough to win the referendum.

What we had is 40 years of decline in large swathes of the north east and other parts of the UK. These people have been woefully let down by successive governments of all colours. They were going to vote against any recommendation that any government made - especially if it was Tory.

That for me is what swung things.

Possibly. A family friend voted to leave as he was unhappy his village bus had seen a reduced service. Cameron seriously underestimated just how many saw the chance of a protest vote.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So democracy to you is about winning ?

Democracy is about having a choice, there is no choice.

 

[afrocentricity]

Yeah that’s what I’m suggesting, assuming nothing else changed but Remain won by however small a margin.

Would you want to Farage to have his second referendum?
It’s a simple yes or no question really

I don’t doubt that there would be people who originally voted Leave who would change their vote to Remain.
I don’t doubt that there would be people who would do the opposite, or didn’t vote the first time around but would vote the second time around - and that doesn’t necessarily mean they would vote to remain either.

I already answered.

No. Just like he said prior to the ref ironically. Personally anything short of a proper majority and a campaign that is more factual than fabrication is a joke, and I'd prefer to avoid making huge decisions that affect nations based off a joke. Why would my position be any different?

I said in the post you quoted why I feel the way I do. It's not about individuals and politics. It's about fairness...

Which is why I wouldn't want it but I wouldn't try to stop it because people are entitled to change their minds if facts and situations change...

To be fair you've confused the feck out of me


My stance is that it's unfair and fecking stupid to make such a decision based on a small margin and the lies that were told. Simple to understand. Agree to disagree and let's move on...

 

[Green_Red]

To my mind it all depends on whether circumstances have changed enough for a second vote to be justified.

For example, it isn't that long since Scotland voted against independence. However, I think think you could definitely argue that Brexit would change things enough for calls for another referendum on the issue to be justified. After all, the risk of leaving the EU was a key argument against independence, Scotland subsequently voted to stay in the EU but now it is facing having to leave it regardless. That materially changes the terms of the original vote, I think.

Has Brexit reached that point yet? Probably not. Maybe it will have by the time a final deal (or no deal) is on the table though.

It also changes the Brexit vote substantially too. Brexit could now be the end of the United Kingdom in that context.

 

[Kentonio]

@villain if democracy in the form of a single vote drives the UK off a cliff, then how is that going to help promote democracy? If people can’t change course even when the cliff edge is very clearly there and approaching fast?

 

[Smores]

Why? On principles? Business interests? Politics?

Assume you are taking about Corbyn only right? Or is it the party?

Haven't been following because I was resigned to the shitty situation. The title change on this thread tweaked my interest...

Nothing to do with Corbyn really, you'd think he dictates all policy by way some here babble on.

Labour have decided to play the card of we can do a better Brexit than the Tories and they'll do as such until they think their exists the votes for a second referendum.

Neither of those positions are particularly realistic so what they're actually doing is sitting waiting for the Tories to mess up so they can fight a GE.

 

[afrocentricity]

Nothing to do with Corbyn really, you'd think he dictates all policy by way some here babble on.

Labour have decided to play the card of we can do a better Brexit than the Tories and they'll do as such until they think their exists the votes for a second referendum.

Neither of those positions are particularly realistic so what they're actually doing is sitting waiting for the Tories to mess up so they can fight a GE.

Oic. Hence the march?

 

[Honest John]

To change the status quo on something as big as membership of the EU should require an overwhelming majority.

We have already seen how many factors could lead people to vote one way or the other.

Some of which are pretty trivial.

A simple majority could not and I believe did not reflect the nations true feelings about the EU.

The referendum should have been set such that Leave required at least 55%.

 

[villain]

I already answered.

No. Just like he said prior to the ref ironically. Personally anything short of a proper majority and a campaign that is more factual than fabrication is a joke, and I'd prefer to avoid making huge decisions that affect nations based off a joke. Why would my position be any different?

I said in the post you quoted why I feel the way I do. It's not about individuals and politics. It's about fairness...

I didn't see where you answered clearly - you're suggesting that unless there's a large majority as the result, then you'd be open to vote again, is that what you're saying?

If thats what you're saying then that's fair enough and at least you're consistent - I can't argue with that.

I suspect that a lot of people who are open to a referendum, wouldn't be open to one if the result was the other way around.

@villain if democracy in the form of a single vote drives the UK off a cliff, then how is that going to help promote democracy? If people can’t change course even when the cliff edge is very clearly there and approaching fast?

It was a series of votes, with Brexit being the climax.
UKIP were voted into parliament over a number of years with the sole intention of us leaving the EU.
Cameron won the 2013 general election with the promise to include the referendum on his manifesto.
Then of course Brexit.

A lot of people wanted this happen for a number of years, and there wasn't enough pushback until it was too late.
Whether we like this or not - a second vote doesn't fix that, and what's to stop a third vote thereafter?

 

[afrocentricity]

suspect that a lot of people who are open to a referendum, wouldn't be open to one if the result was the other way around.

Yea probably but look at the stakes. I just think a majority and a largely above board campaign would go a long way to shutting those people down. As it stands they have grounds to feel... What's the word? Snaked... You know what I mean anyway...

 

[Kentonio]

It was a series of votes, with Brexit being the climax.
UKIP were voted into parliament over a number of years with the sole intention of us leaving the EU.
Cameron won the 2013 general election with the promise to include the referendum on his manifesto.
Then of course Brexit.

A lot of people wanted this happen for a number of years, and there wasn't enough pushback until it was too late.
Whether we like this or not - a second vote doesn't fix that, and what's to stop a third vote thereafter?

For years the EU has been used as a scapegoat by both major parties, and villified and lied about by the likes of UKIP. Now we clearly see the real consequences of walking away in a way we hadn't before. It's all laid out for anyone to see, and now all we're asking is for people to be given a chance to confirm that decision if they choose to. If they vote to remain, then nothing is to stop a third vote later, but after stepping away from the cliff edge at the last minute, its extremely unlikely people would be in any rush to run towards it again.

 

[Barca84]

Xenophobes were a factor. Old feckers hankering for the days of Empire. Some who didn't like the fact that the EU council are not elected. Others didn't like the prospect of a United States of Europe. If you add all these together there would not have been enough to win the referendum.

What we had is 40 years of decline in large swathes of the north east and other parts of the UK. These people have been woefully let down by successive governments of all colours. They were going to vote against any recommendation that any government made - especially if it was Tory.

That for me is what swung things.

Spot on HJ. Here in the East Midlands entire communities have been run into the ground after decades of decline, lack of investment, and cuts in services. You get a few card carrying racists and swivel eyed empire lovers but the truth is it's largely ordinary people who have been shafted by a succession of governments. Unfortunately they're getting shafted again by the Johnson's and the JRM's of this world whilst simultaneously being demonised by the remain voter as simply thick and racist for the crime of voting for what they were told would be best for them.

I've encountered more racism and xenophobia sat at well stocked dining tables in the home counties than I ever have in an East Midlands pit village.

 

[afrocentricity]

As for the 3rd vote what if.... You'd think that nobody would be on the fence for a 2nd referendum. Nobody would be complacent leave or remain. (you could even make it clear, no more votes on it after the fact if you wanted)

So whatever came out (via majority because if you can't get a majority then you just stay ffs) in the 2nd referendum would probably be what came out in the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc... I think it would be enough. Doubt a 3rd attempt world get much momentum unless something drastically changed after the vote. In which case imho a 3rd vote would be warranted...

Edit: @Kentonio beat me to it...

 

[Kentonio]

I've encountered more racism and xenophobia sat at well stocked dining tables in the home counties than I ever have in an East Midlands pit village.

Dunno, I come from an East Midland pit village and there was always plenty of casual racism there.