I don't think a above board campaign exists in politics.
If we voted to Remain the first time around and there was a chance for a second referendum - would you support it?
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I don't think a above board campaign exists in politics.
If we voted to Remain the first time around and there was a chance for a second referendum - would you support it?
Not a chance in hell.
Then again Remain doesn't come with a potential economic collapse as a result, so I think a little hypocrisy here is acceptable.
I think some of those voting in favour of leave did so as a protest against the establishment. It wasn't as much about the EU as it was about going against the way things were/are.
I watched this video from the Guardian which sheds some light on why some voted out. Certainly some more level-headed opinions in there.
I'd still vote remain today but I do understand the motivations of some leavers.
I've also seen some stuff about the Eastern Europeans who moved to the UK recently. They all work in factory/warehouse/service jobs and some of them work ridiculous hours, up to 80-90 a week in some cases. They make the point that if you take them out of the equation, there's no one left to do those jobs because Brits are generally going for customer service/call-center role's.
It's all a bit of a mess really.
I watched this video from the Guardian which sheds some light on why some voted out. Certainly some more level-headed opinions in there.
I'd still vote remain today but I do understand the motivations of some leavers.
I've also seen some stuff about the Eastern Europeans who moved to the UK recently. They all work in factory/warehouse/service jobs and some of them work ridiculous hours, up to 80-90 a week in some cases. They make the point that if you take them out of the equation, there's no one left to do those jobs because Brits are generally going for customer service/call-center role's.
It's all a bit of a mess really.
Exactly , don't bother to find out if by voting Brexit it would actually change their situation or who was responsible for their situation. Brainwashed by a bunch of liars.
Don't disagree with the rest.
There's levels tho aren't there? It's not one or the other is it? Let's not pretend every campaign is the same...
All I'll say to these people is It's not about what other people think of you. It's about what you do. You're defined by your actions. Tell people why you are voting leave? How it will fix your problems? Have you changed your mind? Speak up for yourself... Speak to the politicians that are shafting you, even if it's one from your own party or one that voted leave with you. Seeing someone shut down a bigot in comment sections and then going on to say how they voted leave but despise cnuts like the person they just shut down would go a long way too.
It's all good distancing themselves from the thick racists/xenophobes but maybe do it vocally and visibly?
@villain you alluded to speaking to leave voters that are smart, informed, etc...
Where the feck are they? I never see them...
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If people are saying that we can only have one referendum on an issue then the one in the 1970's should have been the last referendum on the matter.
I think that the idea you can only have one vote on a subject and to vote on it again is antidemocratic is ridiculous. In Government they have votes on subjects that have been voted down before every day of the week. Just because a vote has been made in one direction doesn't mean that it shouldn't be voted on again.
The thing is that I don't really want a new referendum because I'm not sure that the result would be any different and if we voted Brexit again that would make the mandate stronger.
As for the Lib Dems, why would anybody vote for them? You can't trust them to keep to their election manifesto. Offer them a little bit of power and they'd sell out their own grandmothers and first born children.
I worked in a warehouse for a few months after getting laid off and having to wait for my next career job to come through. If you took the Eastern European's out of that place, it would have ground to an immediate stop. There were a small number of older Brits who contributed just as much as the Eastern Europeans, but the young Brits who'd regularly turn up there were useless. They usually left after a week or two, after spending all day pissing around, chatting with their mates, breaking stock and generally just causing more trouble than they were worth. I'm not exaggerating here, if we lose the Eastern Europeans then our logistics companies are going to be fecked.
They do exist in certain social spheres but these people intend to exploit a differently regulated market, that they will help create.
Yea I know what you are getting at there. That's what I alluded to when I said this is an earner for some and a power play for others.
It certainly seems that way. I haven't worked in warehouse jobs but I always get the impression that the younger Brits doing those roles are some of the worst we have to offer.
Most of them were there because the job centre was making them accept a job or lose benefits. I know this because they talked about it endlessly. Alongside how much they hated the job and wanted to leave and how shit it was and blah blah blah. They had the work ethic of toddlers, it was embarrasing to watch.
I'm with you on this. A second referendum will bring only a no deal outcome.
How come? Aren't we heading for no deal anyway?
Y'all already know what I think anyway. If leave managed to get a stronger mandate then so be it. Feckries but will of the people and all that...
Not really because years have passed from the original decision. Its not like they re-held a referendum immediately after.
Attempts have been made to try and put the original decision into action, it is becoming clear as was always clear to those with sense that it is a very impractical decision which flies in the face of economic logic and could cause long-lasting societal issues which would prove irreparable in the long term if the UK was to stand firm in the course it was being asked to take.
Now that almost three years would have passed, by mid 2019 if it is still proving to be impossible to carry out in a manner which would be somewhat of a 'success' for the UK, then of course they should be allowed to hold another referendum to gauge everyone's opinions in light of what has happened in the past three years.
Even someone like myself was during the initial referendum unsure of what 'Brexit' really meant and how much it would impact the nation. I grossly underestimated its impact. I think there are many people out there who didn't realistically think we would ever come out of the EU and never took the first referendum seriously and most likely didn't even vote. I don't think that would happen again - as the nation is much more aware of what is at stake here.
I also think we can't use Labour or Libs 'electability' as a barometer to see how the next referendum would go. Many left wing people are not convinced by Corbyn or Lib Dems, likewise many conservative voters would obviously not vote for either of those parties but Brexit will hurt the wealthy who own big businesses a great deal - pretty sure they won't be keen on leaving any stone unturned for the second referendum. I believe the first vote caught a lot of people unaware - don't think they were worried about the result and thought it was a foregone conclusion.
Sure but we saw similar tactics used in the last few general elections - this is the environment of politics these days.
There's no niceties left.
London & the South, surprisingly - well maybe the South isn't so surprising. Mostly business owners, bankers & lawyers
Most of their arguments are around the limiting factor of the EU, especially when it comes to funding, research, policy & other legislation.
To them, the EU is failing, from a legislative, financial and economical perspective.
I don't think we needed a referendum to fix these issues, it could've happened while we remained - just likely to be a slower burn. & the other side of the argument is that there's no guarantee a UK government would pander to these needs anyway when Brexit happens.
I work with corporations, investment funds, lawyers - as well as my own personal circle of small business owners & other law & finance professionals - and you'd think they are the ones that are freaking out the most - and so far it's not been the case. My workload has increased drastically drafting up new contracts but thats not too surprising.
It's looking like that but there is still some chance of a deal due to
.NL border
.Some '''pressure'' from remain tories(Although it might not be worth mentioning)
.Pressure from british business and finance on the tory party
.A worry that a complete collapse of the UK could lead to Corbyn being in power.
But it yeah a no deal is getting closer every day sadly.
Yea I wasn't really thinking about those guys I've heard those arguements. Was thinking moreso about the bulk (or what I perceive to be the bulk anyway) of the leave vote. The people that will likely feel the sharp end of all this...
Yea it's feckries...
Other than lawyers I worked in the same circles, didn't know one single person from that environment who voted leave. Investors banking on a surge in Euro currency and devaluation of Sterling I could believe.
Well the point is, that there's more of those guys out there than we perceive them to be.
Your anecdotes and my anecdotes are different - not too surprising is it?
I would have loved to have met one. I'd really actually love to have a discussion with JRM or Farage or one of that ilk - would be hilarious.
Regardless. Couldn't care less about em if I'm being honest. Something about willfully wanting to put the country thru a feckries for their own personal gain don't sit right with me... I'd rather have a pint with a xenophobe Brexiter than listen to those guys justify their angle.
Point taken tho...
Oddly enough, I used to say this about BoJo and it so happens that he goes to the same barber as one of the Partners in my very first job out of uni - and a small group of us had the opportunity to engage with him on a few occasions when he held meetings in our building.
The guy is insanely switched on, the bumbling moron act he plays up for the camera is so far from reality, unfortunately.
I don't believe that to be the case with Farage, I genuinely think he's an idiot.
JRM on the other hand reminds me of a literal snake - I just can't trust the man.
I'd be up for the challenge for any of them. Agree, Farage would be the easiest to make a complete fool of.
You realise that allowing people a second chance to change their mind about destroying their future is exactly what democracy is? Telling people who were lied to that they have to deal with it and tough shit is not democratic.
Found this amusing.
Listening to May and Corbyn in parliament , both stumbling, stammering and bumbling along.Oh dear.
That argument only works if you would back a second referendum, if Remain had won, and Farage was campaigning for a second vote.
Or, in the event of a second referendum - the losing camp can campaign for a third referendum, and we go on and on.
It would undermine democratic integrity going forward.
How is more democracy a bad thing? If anything making an advisory, non-binding vote based on what are now clear to be complete mistruths irreversible, undermines democratic integrity going forward.
Many would argue that not having this vote undermines our democratic integrity. We vote all the time, usually every 5 years for a GE, however occasion sometimes calls for an unscheduled GE. This depends on circumstance and whether there is appetite for it in parliament and the general public.
To force this through because of a small majority one day back in June 16 in a non-binding referendum and say it cannot be over-turned no matter what because it is un-democratic, is un-democratic.
If the leavers care so much about democracy, why in gods name would they be against another vote? If Brexit is really what we want, it is what we'll get.
Best of three I reckon
I'm not saying there isn't. What I'm saying is I've experienced more of it, and a lot less casual, in an affluent south east where people have long drives with gates at the end to keep brown skinned and other undesirables off their property.
And this only makes sense if there is no new perspective. After two years, you can't even find two leavers with the same idea of Brexit, you can't find two leavers with the same idea of a simple withdrawal deal and that's without even mentioning the irish border issue or the litany of lies and misinformation that were spread during the campaign.
From that article ‘self-governing’
I could have swore UK had their own government. Well in name only, since they’re a bit shit
Amazing how many buy into this myth that EU runs UK
There's a fair amount of that going on and every poll I've seen recently indicates a significant swing to remain. Comment sections? Hardly representative of the demographic. Try a pub in the Nottinghamshire coalfield and see what you find there. The problem is the pollsters and the gaugers of public opinion won't be seen there. Why do you think the Brexit vote came as such a shock to half the country and wasn't predicted in any polling?
But then where does it stop? That's my main point.
I understand the arguments that the voters were misled and misinformed at the time of the election, and I agree - that's not what i'm arguing against.
The point is, whatever the result of a hypothetical second referendum we open ourselves to a perpetual loop of more and more elections, and not just on Brexit but going forward too on potentially any decision made.
I'm not arguing for Brexit, i'm trying to determine where the line is drawn if we have a second referendum, and what stops us from having a third and fourth one.
Remain gotta win 2 in a row to pull this back, shades of '99 CL final.
Never, that's the point of Politic and Legislation, it's a perpetual work in progress.
No second referendum, please. Just let the feckers leave and be done with their self-importance.
I voted remain but it does make me laugh a bit, the amount of outrage from people who would be 100% against a second referendum if remain won. Define democracy in whatever way you like but you can’t really blame people for laughing when you display such an obvious bias.
Also calling people stupid just because they have a different opinion to your own is I think partly the reason for such a huge divide in the first place. Some of things I’ve read from remainers are so patronising, condescending and just sanctimonious in their tone that no-one actually wants to listen to your point.
Also calling people stupid just because they have a different opinion to your own is I think partly the reason for such a huge divide in the first place. Some of things I’ve read from remainers are so patronising, condescending and just sanctimonious in their tone that no-one actually wants to listen to your point.