We live in a representative democracy. We democratically elect officials to make decisions we are too ignorant to understand the complexities of. Brexit is one of these issues. Screaming “democracy must be protected” while staring down the precipice seems a misplaced sentiment.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
- Start date
We live in a representative democracy. We democratically elect officials to make decisions we are too ignorant to understand the complexities of. Brexit is one of these issues. Screaming “democracy must be protected” while staring down the precipice seems a misplaced sentiment.
This another assumption? Cos the last referendum they assume they're not that stupid and they're wrong.
If another referendum is due tomorrow I'd still put a tenner on it being a close vote, with 2nd brexit a not so impossible outcome.
Politicians fails to realized that democracy in the western world is having a drastic changes, who would have thought trump could actually won
Not really no. Strongly disagree to be honest.
I'm with those who believe that democracy isn't "You made a choice now deal with it". Moreso "You are a part of this, what do you think? How should we go ahead?".
That's very easy, the Limp Lettuce is leading it.
Looks like "Don't know" has taken 2nd and put the Limp Lettuce into third place in a two horse race. Incredible feat.
Last edited:
I voted Remain, but honestly how embarrassing is it that 700k people marched for a new referendum?
If it actually happened, I'd vote to leave, Brexit means Brexit after all
What I find embarrassing is that people have just rolled over and accepted that their lives are going to be damaged by a bunch of ignorant fools. Anyone with even an iota of intelligence knows this will be the worst thing that has happened to the UK since the war.
How long are you willing to put up with it and how long will it be before you are allowed to change your mind?
The marching against Trump wasn't just because he was an "ist". It was to express their disgust at their country being led down a path they didn't want it to go down; by a xenophobic, insular, conservative and regressive dinosaur who was going to try and roll back decades of progress towards a more cosmopolitan and open society. The parallels with Brexit couldn't be more obvious.
You're relying on politicians to be informative?
If they were marching for more transparency in politics, and sanctions for politicians who deliberately mislead the general public - so that in the future we will never be in this position again; i'd be the first to show up at the protest.
We all know politicians lie and deceive and bend the rules, and have known this for decades. Why would we think Brexit is no different?
It would've been great if the campaign finances issue was highlighted more, because that's evidence of politicians acting in bad faith and has more grounds for raising a second referendum.
Assuming nothing else changed, and despite the lack of information and clear misinformation spread;
If Remain was voted and Vote Leave marched for a second referendum I would think it was embarrassing too - and I think a lot more people would say the same thing too if it was Farage & his lot leading a march to get a second chance at a vote.
The fact is that it's the reverse, and I feel the exact same way. It doesn't change how I feel about Brexit.
If we're going to do something to help stop the spread of misinformation, or provide a platform for unbiased information on policies ahead of an election - i'd be the first to sign up for it.
But we're in the information age - anybody who doesn't do their own independent research and relies on TV/Newspapers, rumours or family & friends to help form their political opinions doesn't want to be informed.
The idea of a 'clear mandate' in politics implies there will be no bias, politics is about power, and with power there is always influence & bias
Who are you calling ignorant when you say that? There are many smart and well-informed Leave voters, as well as many uninformed Remain voters - and vice versa.
Sure you could say that nobody could've predicted the outcome of Brexit so far - but it was still voted for by millions of people - they weren't all ignorant.
Which goes back to what I said - at what point do we stop?
I think it would be close too.
I'll be the first to admit that I had my own biases about Brexiters and their intentions and that helped shaped a lot of my opinion about them.
But having been in conversation & debates with a lot of them - especially the ones who don't fit the mould of what I had previously expected a Brexiter to be - I've just learned to accept the decision. I'm still angry and disappointed, but it is what it is.
I don't think by marching we're saying 'how should we go ahead' at all, I think it's blocking us from going ahead until we revisit the vote.
So your solution is that we should vote again until we vote Remain?
Let me be clear - what's embarrassing to me, is the idea that we should revisit a vote despite it being voted for democratically.
I've been to two Anti-brexit protests before and after the election, so i'm not against the idea of protesting - i'm against the idea that we should vote again.
The comparisons you're making with Trump aren't obvious because those marches weren't trying to reverse the decision - they were expressing their opinions.
Logging back to a crazy about of notifications is wild 
I'm allowed to think that we shouldn't vote again, surely there's nothing wrong with holding that opinion.
I'm allowed to think that we shouldn't vote again, surely there's nothing wrong with holding that opinion.
Honestly the worst kind of people (hypebole!) are those that voted Remain but would now vote Brexit or are resigned to a hard brexit and the economic impact it would bring because it is either embarrassing or that we made a democratic decision as if democracy is finite.
Same kind of people would just stand by while a crash is happening.
Same kind of people would just stand by while a crash is happening.
Sorry Villain but I'm afraid that none of what you say justifies your original position. We are getting used to our politicians lying openly now but that is no reason to accept it, we must do something about it. In the past if caught being deceitful they would either resign or be de-selected, now we must put them under pressure to do what is right regardless of people who say it is embarrassing or in their terms undemocratic, it clearly isn't.
The Campaign Finances issue was reported many times, but people don't want to hear it, even those who voted on the funding more to the NHS issue will now deny that was their reason and we know with certainty the reasons many had but don't like to promote. See no honesty, speak no honesty, hear no honesty. Society is being turned on its head and those of us who believe it should be otherwise are still entitled to protest it.
Personally I don't think it should have gone to a referendum in the first place because people clearly had no idea what they voted for.
But as it did, it is 2 years and 4 months since the referendum and there is much more information available to access easily now.
In that same space of time two general elections were held and people had the choice to change the government.
This is far more important than changing a government, it is a decision that once done will not be easily reversible. There could be a last chance to stop the madness.
It is probably too late anyway but there is one small chance that the UK could stop it.
As I've said before if the UK leave without a deal, and the country implodes on itself it will be the Brexiters that will be shouting the loudest to reverse the decision.
In which case I think we are agreed your "point" was baseless and unecessary.
If the referendum had offered two clearly defined, realistic alternatives, then I would be willing to respect the result. The problem is that the Leave option was conpletely open-ended and was promoted by Farage, Fox, Johnson etc as a relatively painless process thanks to the inevitable intercession of desperate German car manufacturers and Italian prosecco producers. In October 18, there is no longer any room for delusion as to tbe fact that leaving involves serious downsides and costs and, if we wish to avert complete disaster, compromises. Such a once in a generation upheaval must be decided on the facts, not on bluster and lies. Ideally parliament would make that decision but, as Cameron was moronic enough to throw it open to a referendum in 16, then it can only be settled by s second referendum.
But the remainers shouted this from the rooftops, it wasn't a secret that this was all bullshit.
I have not seen any on here, I have not met any in real life and I haven't seen any on TV and that includes the politicians. Where are they hiding?
My post is referring to what I think democracy means (we can disagree here). The march being the people saying "Hold the feck up! I'm not happy how this is going. Let's do this properly."
What you seem to be saying is let's ignore the people represented by the march (no doubt including the 49%) and go along with these other people (that you don't seem to agree with) because of your interpretation of what democracy means. That's fair enough, I disagree.
Be clear on what you're saying here - 'under pressure to do what is right', what are you implying is 'right' here? Millions of people did vote Leave, and not all of them were ignorant or misled. And many of them feel as though it is the right decision for them.
I see society for what it is because i've been disappointed by decisions that have been put place and voted for in the past - so I agree - honesty is definitely lacking but it has been for a large amount of time now. Since the rise of UKIP this has been a thought in the back of my head.
I'm not suggesting you can't protest, hell I was even at the protest and spoke to a lot of people there - plus I love a good protest myself.
I just don't think protesting for a second vote is the right way to go about it, plus isn't the deadline to leave in about 4 months?
I agree with that, it shouldn't have gone to referendum in the first place - we can thank Dave for that. He was under pressure to include it because UKIP were gaining seats at an alarming rate, and this was seen as a compromise.
I think the only chance of it ever going through is to extend the deadline to leave the EU then vote on a referendum then - I mean it's technically possible but very highly improbable at this point.
Ok I see what you're saying now, I thought the 'how should we go ahead' was in relation to the Brexit decision - but you're saying it's part of your understanding of democracy as a whole.
In that case, yeah I agree with you - it is about how we should go ahead and proceed as a society, including those we don't agree with.
I think the second vote goes against the 'how should we go ahead' because if it were to happen, we're actively not trying to go ahead, we're trying to turn back first.
Did anybody here go to the march on the weekend?
Has anybody been to any brexit marches? Or participated in town halls with your local MPs?
I'm trying to understand what everybody's proximity to this is beyond debating about it on a forum.
Has anybody been to any brexit marches? Or participated in town halls with your local MPs?
I'm trying to understand what everybody's proximity to this is beyond debating about it on a forum.
Ok then, who voted to turn the M26 into a lorry park.
When that's full, they can start on the M25.
What is the will of the people? That is all I want to know. The referendum of June 2016 doesn't come close to answering what the people want from the various possible outcomes.
If the majority want to cut all ties with the EU and start afresh; suffering the economic collapse, breaking the GFA, beginning the end of the union, then brilliant... Lets fecking well find out then we can get on with it.
If the majority want to cut all ties with the EU and start afresh; suffering the economic collapse, breaking the GFA, beginning the end of the union, then brilliant... Lets fecking well find out then we can get on with it.
It was foreseeable but could be dismissed at the time as “Project Fear” by leaders of the Leave campaign. It’s likely at least some of the more moderate Leave voters believed those lies and would be consider changing their vote now the picture is clear. Obviously nothing will persuade a significant number to change their mind (like that Geordie in the clip above talking about tbe British Empire) but even a small swing will do the trick.
Yes. The situation is fluid, not static. It was fecking dumb in the first place. Now? You know where I'm going with this...
We can see the Governments response to the march today, which is to totally ignore it. What would be right would be to base a decision on the facts whilst the decision everyone has made has been made on lies and with one campaign funding from vested interests which we cannot trust. Putting them under pressure to do what's right is to not harm this country or its people by those who might wish it harm or intend to profit from it or gain promotion.
What percentage were not ignorant? Which of them were not misled? Do you have statistics that will outweigh the numbers who trusted lies?
To my mind I wonder why you even care to debate in this thread if you truly are that apathetic over honesty in Public Life. Do you really believe that the people of this country given the different levels of education in these matters not deserve total honesty from their politicians?
The whole democracy should be protected schtick is ridiculous anyway (and I expect some to disagree me here but whatever). It should be protected but the cost should obviously be considered. I think we can live with Brexit but say the country voted to invade France based on poor information. Once that had been made clear would y'all be saying "Well, the people have spoken. Gotta do what we gotta do." ... I doubt it ...
Did you see me say it was? Just criticising the sentiment. You actually just agreed with me as I'm assuming you find it hilarious because the statement isn't some unbreakable law.
That's literally not in anyway the same.
Wild ride. I thought it was Alf Garnett for a minute.
I think Brexit is nothing more but a giant add for the fact that referendums about complex issues are a bad idea. Holding a referendum on Brexit is probably about as prudent as deciding it in a game of rock paper scissors lizard spock spiderman batman wizard glock.
Never mind a hypothetical invasion of France. How about when Iraq was invaded based on poor information? Whether it's the electorate or the government making decisions based on false assumptions, it seems insane to think that decisions can't be changed once these false assumptions are uncovered.
Then that leads us down a slippery slope - Brexit was dumb, I agree wholeheartedly, don't take my posts as anything but agreement of that.
Pushing for a second referendum on this opens up the possibility for a second referendum on anything else we decide to vote on in the future, if the outcome isn't favourable.
Also, there's no guarantee that the vote would go the way we would want it to.
But again - you're assuming that everyone made their decision based on lies.
I didn't base my vote on any lies, I doubt you did either, and I doubt many people on this forum did.
Do you have statistics on who made their decision based on lies?
I'm not saying nobody did, but i'm certainly not saying everyone did - and i'm not implying that those who voted differently to me, did so because they were misled either because that comes across quite condescending.
Ultimately any vote will have a portion of people who were ill-advised, or didn't know/understand all arguments for or against the vote in question - not all Remain voters did so because they understood all the facts, likewise with the Leave voters, it happens.
I'm not apathetic over public life at all, and i'm actively involved in my community because of issues like this - in fact for the last 2 years i've been part of a collective who put pressure on my local MP over Brexit - to the point where he resigned from Parliament, and is now actively campaigning for the referendum of a second vote.
Apathetic is not the word to describe to me at all, but being so involved with politics i'm often confronted with the people on the other side of the debate who hold a different perspective to me. I don't understand why they think the way that they do, but I won't dismiss it either.
But we can agree to disagree
Its a completely stupid example to use. There's a ok-ish argument to use about having a second referendum but the problem is that at the moment it's too harmful for any major political party to put forward.
A large part of the country(Well England & Wales)don't believe the whole ''they lied to us, we fell for the big red bus'' shtick. Having a second referendum because in the last one some people lied is never going to work.
I was going for ridiculous, but fair point.
Is that a bad thing?
I think you're missing the point mate
See Pogues follow up post if that sits better for you.
Honestly the one thing dumber than holding a first referendum is holding a second one. It was a referendum not a math test. You can't say: ah, I'm sorry guys, but you got it wrong the first time, try again!
I don't think I'm missing the point just that your example is a bit shite. Also the Iraq example doesn't work at all.I think you're missing the point mate
See Pogues follow up post if that sits better for you.
The referendum should never have happened then as we already had a referendum where the people voted overwhelmingly to be in the EU.
"Yeah, they cheated and lied, but lots of people fell for those lies, so we have to accept it."
Solid logic.
Solid logic.
If Remain won the vote, and Farage and his cronies were marching for a second referendum, would you be in here saying 'well, is that a bad thing?'
If you want to go down the slope of being able to vote on issues again, then you have to be consistent and accept that the other side will be able to do the same thing - and it's not always going to work in your favour.
I'm much more in favour of improving the way in which we receive information about politics, that wont stop ignorant people from voting but it will make the information more accessible for those who do want to be informed.
But again - you're assuming that everyone made their decision based on lies.
I didn't base my vote on any lies, I doubt you did either, and I doubt many people on this forum did.
Do you have statistics on who made their decision based on lies?
I'm not saying nobody did, but i'm certainly not saying everyone did - and i'm not implying that those who voted differently to me, did so because they were misled either because that comes across quite condescending.
Ultimately any vote will have a portion of people who were ill-advised, or didn't know/understand all arguments for or against the vote in question - not all Remain voters did so because they understood all the facts, likewise with the Leave voters, it happens.
I'm not apathetic over public life at all, and i'm actively involved in my community because of issues like this - in fact for the last 2 years i've been part of a collective who put pressure on my local MP over Brexit - to the point where he resigned from Parliament, and is now actively campaigning for the referendum of a second vote.
Apathetic is not the word to describe to me at all, but being so involved with politics i'm often confronted with the people on the other side of the debate who hold a different perspective to me. I don't understand why they think the way that they do, but I won't dismiss it either.
But we can agree to disagree
we certainly will agree Villain, no two people see exactly the same argument.The fact you are asking me my own question means we have no idea what percentage voted on lies or their education but enough people have been quoted, interviewed and told me and probably yourself personally that they either don't want the EU deciding for them that we must buy square bananas anymore, that they want a return to the British Empire, that they want the NHS to get what we pay French farmers, fishermen, steelworkers or car industry workers, that they don't want Polish people to take their jobs . - that there will be no shortage of jobs in the UK once we leave the EU and on and on to make my mind up that it is a fair proportion of Vote Leavers to have drunk the Kool Aid, that we don't need YouGov to tell us what the split is
My own business Partner voted Leave and we haven't even discussed why because we'd fall out for the first time, but I've a fair idea and he's educated too but his father is a working class Brummie who told me that we have to stop EU workers taking up our jobs. Our business has relied on qualified people from all over Europe since we started over 15 years ago and now we are struggling to find staff, we can't do our work without them. That's how ridiculous people's beliefs are over what they've been told.
Glad to hear you are not really apathetic Villain. We need to get involved at our local levels, campaign against politicians with bad records or get them de-selected.
People voted in 2015 a tory party who promised to hold a new referendum into government, if people really wanted a ''people's vote'' after the 2016 referendum then they should have voted Lib Dem in last election.
There are ways of getting a new referendum but making it appear out of thin air isn't one of them.
Last edited:
If they want to protest their way to a second referendum they need to burn London to ground, peaceful protests don't work in this country.