I'm sure the EU would prefer a deal. Just not a bad one for the EU.
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I'm sure the EU would prefer a deal. Just not a bad one for the EU.
My chest. 
Wish I knew what Labour's brexit position was.
I don't want to be patronising and most of my family voted out, but what are the top three positives of Brexit for you?
For a lot of people it is an emotional issue. A lot of people's lives may/will be very badly effected by Brexit depending on how it goes. Telling them not to get emotional about something that potentially important to their lives is rather patronising, especially when doing so from the fortunate position of being removed from whatever outcome arises.
My own sense is that the EU have given up on May coming to an agreement with her party, so there was no point pretending Chequers could form a basis for negotiations. They are more prepared than we are so have told us to put up or shut up. Think May might try and save herself by drawing up a FTA agreement. The problem with that, is it ruins the country. Kills the manufacturing sector dead and severely harms services. It doesn't even solve the Irish problem.
I initially thought the EU would play along at least until the Conservative party conference. Seems they've thrown May overboard.
I initially thought the EU would play along at least until the Conservative party conference. Seems they've thrown May overboard.
Jobs are at stake, including mine. However, forget that, let's listen to a Brit schooling us all the way from Canada.
Who could have guess it would be difficult to reach a deal when Theresa wants to stay inside the federal state project and the EU is intent on "sending a message" like a bunch of thugs.
I guess they were right all along, it really is impossible to survive outside of the EU. Resistance is futile.
I guess they were right all along, it really is impossible to survive outside of the EU. Resistance is futile.
If you were a member of a gym but had decided to cancel your direct debit and let your membership lapse, would you go down there and accuse them of being a "bunch of thugs" for refusing you use of their facilities and benefits they extend to active members?
That isn't how it works. What we're paying for now is the fact there are far too many thick bonces in this country that believed the lying shits who said it'd be perfectly fine and that we could negotiate use of their facilities ourselves, outside membership because they needed us more than we needed them. Compounded by a new, yet equally impressive, wave of ignorance which says it isn't those who believed the lying shits that we could leave and still retain the membership benefits that were to blame - it's apparently the fault of the club we decided to leave not to extend the benefits it reserves for its members who those who think they're just automatically entitled to it just....because.
I have literally no idea how anyone even mildly informed could hold this opinion.
I mean, Jesus Christ
Some people on this thread need their heads knocked together. Someone else sitting in Canada saying it'll be fine because 'we survived 2 world wars'
so disrespectful to so many people, so clueless, so removed from any effects of what's happening. Shocking stuff.I genuinely feel for the remainers, particularly our brothers up north in this island regardless of whether nationalist or loyalist. Hope something happens for your sake, nobody wants a return to the dark days.
There's no prize for worst post in the thread, you know.
I really need to take a drive up to Belfast in the next few months while I still can.
What's worse about this recent development is that the tory objections aren't even about the EU not accepting the chequers plan, we knew that was going no where, the objections are that the EU haven't played ball in pretending everything will be alright.
It's all just an issuenof controlling the message for May and her rabble
It's all just an issuenof controlling the message for May and her rabble
We’ve been back from 2 world wars, Cold War, depression etc etc! Jesus
If that had been on the side of the bus, you think Leave would have won?
My chest.
That's embarrasingly infantile and only gives the likes of IDS and Captain Monocle license to have a pop at the EU
This kind of chatter almost always ends in an anti-climax. Almost always.
Yh it's petty.
Agreed, although I do worry that it also reflects badly on our diplomacy as well. The EU's line has been pretty consistent throughout - this reeks of frustration on their side that nobody in the UK appears to be listening.
Cabinet ministers and loyalists to Theresa May are seeking to defend her beleaguered Brexit strategy, insisting her Chequers proposals are still workable even after their rejection by EU leaders at Thursday’s Salzburg summit.
It was up to the EU to “engage with what’s on the table” in the form of the Chequers deal, said the housing secretary, James Brokenshire, as the former minister Stephen Crabb urged May to “stick to her guns”.
Before the referendum, during the referendum, before A50 was triggered, thousands of times since, the EU have stated that the 4 freedoms are indivisible.
chequers was dead before it was even published but the Tories keep on and on and on.
"It's the only deal we will accept, so you have to take it"
How moronic can the government be. It is never ever ever going to be accepted, how many more times.
There can not be a deal, it's impossible and that's before moggy and his mates have their say.
It was up to the EU to “engage with what’s on the table” in the form of the Chequers deal, said the housing secretary, James Brokenshire, as the former minister Stephen Crabb urged May to “stick to her guns”.
Before the referendum, during the referendum, before A50 was triggered, thousands of times since, the EU have stated that the 4 freedoms are indivisible.
chequers was dead before it was even published but the Tories keep on and on and on.
"It's the only deal we will accept, so you have to take it"
How moronic can the government be. It is never ever ever going to be accepted, how many more times.
There can not be a deal, it's impossible and that's before moggy and his mates have their say.
It's a cheap dig but the point being made is how the EU feel.
The UK for years have been banging on about our sovereign integrity but we've done little to understand the EU's.
The four freedoms are indivisible, when will we understand that?
All trade deals, by definition, involve adherence to a a common rule book.
For the ERG to say that Chequers was a sell-out on this score and then propose Canada as an alternative is bollocks.
Do they think that Canada doesn't have to abide by rules agreed in the deal with the EU? Will those rules be different to the rules applied to other EU nations just because it's Canada?
This has to be the case in all such arrangements else countries could be shipping all manner of unregulated crap into other countries.
For the ERG to say that Chequers was a sell-out on this score and then propose Canada as an alternative is bollocks.
Do they think that Canada doesn't have to abide by rules agreed in the deal with the EU? Will those rules be different to the rules applied to other EU nations just because it's Canada?
This has to be the case in all such arrangements else countries could be shipping all manner of unregulated crap into other countries.
Even Canada nearly walked away from eu deal, they said take it or leave it.
Tesco have opened a couple of discounter supermarkets in an plan to go head to head with the German lot. 8/10 products they sell are produced or reared in the UK and the branding features British flags. I expected to see this in the wake of Brexit.
https://www.jacks-uk.com/
https://www.jacks-uk.com/
It's worse than that, UK's current leaders purposely ignore the fact that EU member states have the same sovereignty as the UK and what they UK wants individually doesn't necessarily match with what these member states want individually. In all of this there are two issues, the lack of respect for EU's will as a whole and the lack of respect members states individually, the strategy to divide to conquer was also a poor calculation that from the start created mistrust.
MEN did a comparison and it wasnt really any cheaper than what you can get at a tesco. Think its all in the branding for this.
Whereas I wish we could reverse this awful decision, may I remind you of how we got here. The UK joined a common market in 1973 which was a good thing for trade. It was sold as that to the UK people and fears of losses of sovereignty for political, economic and legal policies were largely allayed. So the 1975 referendum overwhelmingly voted for continued membership.
The EU however, were constantly pushing for further integration and expansion of the whole project. This came to a head with Maastricht in 1992. There was bitter rivalry in the UK (largely because of what was said in 1975). But Major managed to get it through the house. This is when real fears of ever-closer integration began and the notion of a Federal Europe with its own tax laws and Army etc. looked like a real prospect.
In truth, more rapid progress in that direction has only been hampered by dissenters of which the UK was probably the biggest. (This is why that deep down many in the EU are probably glad to see the back of us)
The Eurosceptics in parliament were starting to grow a lot more vocal and becoming a real problem, especially for the Tories.
From about 2004 with the inclusion of many Eastern European countries there was a sudden surge in net migration. This coupled with the 2008 crash and subsequent austerity caused many affected people to totally lose faith in any government to solve their problems and in many cases, look for someone to blame. It was the same in 1930's Germany when the far right used the crippling austerity to turn on the Jewish people. So in the UK, European immigrants became the reason why people were suffering. So when Farage and his crowd sold them the UKip line they bought it.
Cameron, in an effort to resolve the issue once and for all tried to get some concessions and reforms from the EU. But the EU's view is that the UK had had more concessions than any other EU member. This is true. And it is ironic that when the UK was in we were always looking for opt-outs and now we are leaving we want opt-ins. Nevertheless Cameron came home with nothing so had to call the referendum.
So here we are.
Any disrespect that you mention stems from the fact that the idea was sold as one thing and then turned into something else altogether.
The reason that so many people listen to Farage is that, sadly, on several of his pet points like the lack of democracy he is actually right.
The EU is far from perfect and there are many areas which have major problems.
But I would have much rather stayed in and tried to reform it. Although Cameron didn't get much, I still think we had a lot of influence.
Very good objective post, albeit my conclusion was therefore, to leave.
@Honest John
There are several issues in your post first the EU never changed the project, you just have to read the preambule of the Rome Treaty 1957, the project has always been supposed to bring us closer and closer and closer economically and socially:
Secondly the use of the term EU is bothering because once again it ignores the fact that it's the will of the member states, people talk about the EU vs UK because it's convenient to lump every other members as one, it dilutes their own sovereignty and opinions.
Thirdly the UK has never been forced to stay in the EEC and then the EU, the UK signed treaties that extended the integration, they have actively contributed to the expansion and deeper integration when it would have been fairly simple to not join the EUCU or Maastricht.
There are several issues in your post first the EU never changed the project, you just have to read the preambule of the Rome Treaty 1957, the project has always been supposed to bring us closer and closer and closer economically and socially:
Thirdly the UK has never been forced to stay in the EEC and then the EU, the UK signed treaties that extended the integration, they have actively contributed to the expansion and deeper integration when it would have been fairly simple to not join the EUCU or Maastricht.
This is not true at all, I was there and voted in the 1975 referendum. It is a lie the same as all the Brexit arguments. The idea behind the EEC was not just for trade, this was a benefit but was to promote peace and alliance in Europe after the disastrous start to the 20th century.
Unfortunately right wing populists , racism and xenophobia have raised their head again and idiots follow them.
The lack of democracy is more in the UK system.
There were 9 countries and zero prospect of a dozen or more Eastern bloc countries joining.
I was working in 75 and I can tell you the emphasis was entirely on trade.
Those hand-picked comments in your link make it look like the country knew what it was doing but there was a real fear of loss of sovereignty - that is why the 75 referendum was called.
rubbish
There was no talk of political union, European armies. Nobody mentioned the growth in power of the ECJ.
A lot of talk about Tories but telling that Labour haven't put anyone on the airwaves. They are in almost as bad a position with regards to brexit.
Here is the yes campaign leaflet.
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...mon-market-referendum-campaign-documents.html
Where is the clear information that we were signing up for a political, social and economic super-state?
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...mon-market-referendum-campaign-documents.html
Where is the clear information that we were signing up for a political, social and economic super-state?
Oh yes there was talk of political union, we haven't got a European army. ECJ was always going to cover EEC/EU disputes.
The Eastern European countries were part of the Soviet bloc at the time so they were not seen to be joining any time soon thereafter.
I married a french girl in 1975 and was not thinking about trade, Europe was opening up, that was in my mind then and more European countries would join over time, which they have. As a bonus they wouldn't be fighting each other.
Now because of a load of RW xenophobic con-men the UK is shutting itself off again.
If people thought otherwise they were just as ignorant then as they are now.
Corbyn is hiding under a rock somewhere waiting for the all-clear to come out, what a spineless fool.
He is just as bad as May - he is an utter waste of space.
The Yes campaign definitely went on the trade angle and played down any loss of sovereignty.
As an island that went through the turmoil in the 20th century there would be a strong sense of sovereignty.
This was always going to become an issue.
Maybe as a nation we were never cut out for the full extent of EU's ambitions. Maybe EFTA would have been a better option.
Several leaflets actually point to a social, political and economic Union for example one states:
The aim of the common market are:
- To bring together the people of Europe.
- To raise living standards and improve working conditions.
- To promote growth and boost world trade.
- To help the poorer regions of Europe and the rest of the world.
- To help maintain peace and freedom.