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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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Green_Red said:
Not to mention that local councils in the UK have beem selling off council owned flats and apartments for the last decade to private investors, reducing the number of council housing available.
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UK Government policy

Private landlords dont take rent allowance either (for the most part).

Which has greatly exascerbated the housing crisis in thw UK. You get 4 young single / couples pooling together to rent a small 2 or 3 bedroom apartment in central London and now locals who required affordable housing are pushed out of the market.
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Lot of foreign money buying up property in the UK, they don't necessarily live here however, just use the housing as a way to clean money, the UK government has the power to stop it but chooses not to

There is a very good television series by Phil from Location Location Location all about it and also some very informative lectures by Yanis varoufakis on you tube aboht it.

Im not eve from the UK and I know that. Mozza should take his heqd out of his arse.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...g-uk-lowest-level-records-began-a8059371.html
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Stop blaming migrants
 
Mozza said:
UK Government policy



Lot of foreign money buying up property in the UK, they don't necessarily live here however, just use the housing as a way to clean money, the UK government has the power to stop it but chooses not to



Stop blaming migrants
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Do you do childrens parties at the weekends too?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Feck me. Answer me this. In your opinion, is it possible for anyone to have concerns about the rate of immigration into the UK and not be a racist?
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The thing is the rate isn't particularly high and it's a population that works and pay taxes. That's why while I understand how someone could bring the subject, that person should quickly realize that the problem isn't with immigration but with successive governments that have no interest in taking care of their population, nationals and immigrants.
 
JPRouve said:
The thing is the rate isn't particularly high and it's a population that works and pay taxes. That's why while I understand how someone could bring the subject, that person should quickly realize that the problem isn't with immigration but with successive governments that have no interest in taking care of their population, nationals and immigrants.
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I’ve always been firmly of the opinion that immigration has a very clear net benefit for the economy but a twitter thread someone posted the other day had some interesting points about how it’s not quite that simple.

PedroMendez said:
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This doesn’t necessarily change my mind but it’s definitely far too complex an issue to label of anyone with any doubts as a racist. And that’s when educated people delve deep into the data. Most of the people directly affected by scarcity of resources are going to take a much more straightforward view on what’s happening and see more people arriving in an already strained environment as a potential problem that will get worse and worse over time. The worst you can say about them is that they’re poorly informed or under-educated.

Now some of them may well be racist. Calling them all racists is insulting, unnecessary and plain wrong.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Agreed. And I'd argue that the unwillingness of politicians to engage with the general public and have a 'grown up' debate on the subject over the last Christ knows how many years has ultimately resulted in Brexit and the growth of extreme far right politics in general.

It's counter productive to shout people down who and pigeon hole them all as racists when some of them have genuine concerns and issues that need addressing on their own merits. Dismissing people off hand will only push them further to the right.
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If your response to being grouped with racists is to align yourselves with racists then I'd say you were probably racist to begin with.
 
Mozza said:
UK Government policy



Lot of foreign money buying up property in the UK, they don't necessarily live here however, just use the housing as a way to clean money, the UK government has the power to stop it but chooses not to



Stop blaming migrants
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You started off this thread many pages ago by saying Brexiteers don’t like people with a different skin colour. Now we are talking about recent alleged problems caused by migrants (e.g. housing) when the vast majority of migrants in recent years are white Europeans from the EU. Although clearly on the other side of the debate, you seem to be blurring the lines in the same way Farage did in conflating hostility to Muslims/non-whites with EU freedom of movement. What point are you making exactly?
 


Burnley up here today in the Europa League. Quite indicative of a lot of the Brexit mob.

We voted out. Then European Tour 2018.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’ve always been firmly of the opinion that immigration has a very clear net benefit for the economy but a twitter thread someone posted the other day had some interesting points about how it’s not quite that simple.



This doesn’t necessarily change my mind but it’s definitely far too complex an issue to label of anyone with any doubts as a racist. And that’s when educated people delve deep into the data. Most of the people directly affected by scarcity of resources are going to take a much more straightforward view on what’s happening and see more people arriving in an already strained environment as a potential problem that will get worse and worse over time. The worst you can say about them is that they’re poorly informed or under-educated.

Now some of them may well be racist. Calling them all racists is insulting, unnecessary and plain wrong.
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Everything is always more complex but the thread doesn't really expose immigration as such, it exposes a problem that is equally complex in how do you effectively take kids from a low skilled background and elevate them to being highly skilled, this question applies to everyone, nationals like immigrants and that's where government fail and where they either target immigrants or talk about deplorables and lazy nationals. Our current system keep people down and we let them by allowing them the easy excuses.

And in the case of the EU immigration, if I'm not mistaken on average they are more skilled, I'm not sure if they have corresponding jobs though which would be a problem.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It is small, in the grand scheme of things, but let's not forget that there's only about 700k births in the UK each year.
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And about 600k in deaths as well. Immigration is an extremely stoked up issue, I agree it can be an issue in certain areas but generally it is overblown and the benefits outweigh the negatives in the grand scheme of things.
 
JPRouve said:
Everything is always more complex but the thread doesn't really expose immigration as such, it exposes a problem that is equally complex in how do you effectively take kids from a low skilled background and elevate them to being highly skilled, this question applies to everyone, nationals like immigrants and that's where government fail and where they either target immigrants or talk about deplorables and lazy nationals. Our current system keep people down and we let them by allowing them the easy excuses.

And in the case of the EU immigration, if I'm not mistaken on average they are more skilled, I'm not sure if they have corresponding jobs though which would be a problem.
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Agree 100%. There are huge numbers of people in Britain who are like that joke about mushrooms. Kept in the dark and fed a constant diet of shit. I'm not defending the misinformation they're fed, just arguing that don't think it's helpful to label them all as racists.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It is small, in the grand scheme of things, but let's not forget that there's only about 700k births in the UK each year.
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shouldn't that be even more reason for them to want immigration, though, especially from youth?

it's pretty well documented that a lot of European countries will struggle in the coming decades due to their pensioners living longer and the current generation not popping out enough kids to make up for it. I think the Irish CSO did a study a few months ago and it came back that the population over 65 will double by 2050 or something.
 
OK, so 282k people in net migration. At a conservative estimate, that means an additional 70k abodes would be needed to house these people (assuming 4 people per abode, when the likely figure is probably less, I don't know if there are any official figures on that).
The overall target for housebuilding is 300k houses per year and as I know full well from living in London, overall targets are never met, let alone targets for affordable housing.
Yes - you can apportion blame on government and councils. However, the economic benefit of migrants arriving has a relatively large offset in terms of pressure on housing costs. I don't see how anyone can argue against that and anyone who says that people who have concerns due to that are inherently racist is wrong.
 
Net migration is 282k and it has been around this level for most of the last decade.

Check UK population growth stats.

Nothing really happened for about 30 years then in 1997 Labour threw open the doors to worldwide immigration.

Add the rapid expansion of EU countries plus big earning differences across the block and you have the perfect storm.

From 2000 the UK population has accelerated.

The migrants themselves are not responsible.

But failure to properly control it definitely has an effect on all aspects of our infrastructure.

Browse this:

http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/britainsdemographicchallengeweb.pdf
 
FlawlessThaw said:
And about 600k in deaths as well. Immigration is an extremely stoked up issue, I agree it can be an issue in certain areas but generally it is overblown and the benefits outweigh the negatives in the grand scheme of things.
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For sure. The fact that the birth rate is relatively low, makes it all the more important that net immigration (which is generally fairly young people) continues. Otherwise the aging population will completely wreck the UK economy. Which is why Brexit is potentially such a massive kick in the balls. A bunch of old farts asking for walls to be put up around them, with barely enough people of working age paying into the exchequer - to cover the cost of looking after them - as it is.
 
The Purley King said:
OK, so 282k people in net migration. At a conservative estimate, that means an additional 70k abodes would be needed to house these people (assuming 4 people per abode, when the likely figure is probably less, I don't know if there are any official figures on that).
The overall target for housebuilding is 300k houses per year and as I know full well from living in London, overall targets are never met, let alone targets for affordable housing.
Yes - you can apportion blame on government and councils. However, the economic benefit of migrants arriving has a relatively large offset in terms of pressure on housing costs. I don't see how anyone can argue against that and anyone who says that people who have concerns due to that are inherently racist is wrong.
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The predictions are that the UK population will grow by 9.7 million in the next 25 years. That's equivalent to 3 cities the size of Manchester.
 
Honest John said:
The predictions are that the UK population will grow by 9.7 million in the next 25 years. That's equivalent to 3 cities the size of Manchester.
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Yeah but it's growing because people are living longer, not immigration.

People living longer = higher pensions = very bad if youth doesn't increase at the same/higher rate.
 
Honest John said:
The predictions are that the UK population will grow by 9.7 million in the next 25 years. That's equivalent to 3 cities the size of Manchester.
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A lot of that is driven by people simply living longer, you're not proposing mandatory euthanasia are you?
 
Here's the Irish study, I'd imagine a UK one would follow a similar trend.


The > 65 increase is actually more than double, yikes.

The older population (i.e. those aged 65 years and over) is projected to increase very significantly from its 2016 level of 629,800 persons to nearly 1.6 million by 2051 under the more positive M1 and M2 migration assumptions and to nearly 1.53 million under more conservative M3 migration scenario.
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And the percentage of the working population will decline.

This is all under the assumption too that Ireland's net migration continually increases to the point where it doubles of even triples.

So, good luck UK.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Agree 100%. There are huge numbers of people in Britain who are like that joke about mushrooms. Kept in the dark and fed a constant diet of shit. I'm not defending the misinformation they're fed, just arguing that don't think it's helpful to label them all as racists.
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And I agree with that, I myself don't really like these generalizations, I don't even think that they help us understand the issues, it just creates tranches. The main issue is that some people in Europe are poor and they don't have any hope for it to improve for themselves or their children.
 
Honest John said:
I'm not proposing anything at all. And for your information it is estimated that 51% of it will be from immigration.
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The study by ONS was pre-Brexit if I remember rightly. One signifcant issue lost in the increase number is come 2039, 1 in 12 people will be over 80. That's going to happen regardless.

A HR Consultancy firm called Mercer recently looked into what we will see is a significant issue in terms of workers come 2025 particularly as the amount of over 50s will increase by a quarter.

http://www.cityam.com/283156/uk-facing-workforce-crisis-2025-perfect-storm-ageing

It's why I suspect whatever happens with FOM, we will probably go back on it in some way.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’ve always been firmly of the opinion that immigration has a very clear net benefit for the economy but a twitter thread someone posted the other day had some interesting points about how it’s not quite that simple.

This doesn’t necessarily change my mind but it’s definitely far too complex an issue to label of anyone with any doubts as a racist. And that’s when educated people delve deep into the data. Most of the people directly affected by scarcity of resources are going to take a much more straightforward view on what’s happening and see more people arriving in an already strained environment as a potential problem that will get worse and worse over time. The worst you can say about them is that they’re poorly informed or under-educated.

Now some of them may well be racist. Calling them all racists is insulting, unnecessary and plain wrong.
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Probably also worth noting that while net migration figures are relatively low (at least in comparison) to the population, some areas will be more impacted than others. Up in Scotland, while I don't have the figures at hand, I believe immigration levels are generally a lot lower than in the rest of the UK. This is especially noticeable in a lot of non-city towns which, while still reasonable in size, have very low immigrant populations.

That's not to say it's necessarily a bad thing that other areas have more, of course, since I'd subscribe to the view that diversity tends to be a good thing, but it probably is important to note that people experience immigration in different ways and that no two individuals will have an identical experience in relation to it. Indeed, even if solely through pot luck, it's conceivable that the effects of immigration on the economy and community could hypothetically be brilliant in one town, while being more negative in another. Because like with all people you can't always just put immigrants into convenient boxes and not account for divergences in social circumstances, economic mobility, age, gender etc.

Although of course there is the notable irony that a lot of the most pro-Brexit areas where you'll likely see more racists will end up being rural communities who don't have that much to do with them.
 
There's always the Soylent Green solution. Tackles food poverty as well for a win-win scenario.
 
MoskvaRed said:
You started off this thread many pages ago by saying Brexiteers don’t like people with a different skin colour. Now we are talking about recent alleged problems caused by migrants (e.g. housing) when the vast majority of migrants in recent years are white Europeans from the EU. Although clearly on the other side of the debate, you seem to be blurring the lines in the same way Farage did in conflating hostility to Muslims/non-whites with EU freedom of movement. What point are you making exactly?
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They hate all migrants regardless of skin tone
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’ve always been firmly of the opinion that immigration has a very clear net benefit for the economy but a twitter thread someone posted the other day had some interesting points about how it’s not quite that simple.



This doesn’t necessarily change my mind but it’s definitely far too complex an issue to label of anyone with any doubts as a racist. And that’s when educated people delve deep into the data. Most of the people directly affected by scarcity of resources are going to take a much more straightforward view on what’s happening and see more people arriving in an already strained environment as a potential problem that will get worse and worse over time. The worst you can say about them is that they’re poorly informed or under-educated.

Now some of them may well be racist. Calling them all racists is insulting, unnecessary and plain wrong.
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Some of the places with the least migration had the largest leave votes (and vice versa). Not to forget the posher richer Tories who's majority voted out, no scarcity of resources for them
 
There weren't any respectable or sensible reasons to vote for Brexit, were there?

Reasons to vote for Brexit seem to range from racist, to completely naive. At worst 'keep foreigners out innit'. At best: 'We can negotiate a magical deal without any downsides and any consequences will be non-existence because...project fear'.

I don't think it's my hindsight Remainer smugness either. Every single problem we're encountering now was eminently foreseeable but people were either too racist to care or wilfully ignorant to notice. You have to admire the die-hards though. The ones that argue that they voted exactly for food shortages, trade chaos and potential to run out of blood and medical supplies in return for something having the potential to start looking up in 50 years time. The level of self-denial is admirable to be honest.
 
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