Ooh @Stanley Road, you are betraying the cause, aren't you?
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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The EU would be silly to accept that.
If we do re-enter then we have to go all in as far as I'm concerned. We have to look at it as a unified Europe deal and be fully pledged to it, including the Euro and developing a European military. On their part they have to work to make the average working class Brit feel more a part of Europe instead of the forgotten towns and communities that had their industry taking and replaced with EU funding. The Brexit voting population majority will die out over the next 5 years.
What do you mean? How do we do that, I don't think that the rest of Europe is made to feel more part of it.
Disclaimer: It's not a disagreement, I'm just curious because I understand that it's a real sentiment but I don't really understand it.
That's the challenge and figuring it out is part of it. For many in the UK being part of Europe was something that ended outside of the M25. I've been lucky enough in my career over the years to be working all over the continent ( and USA ) and the people I work with speak more about Europe as a single thing they are all part of if that makes sense. They feel that freedom of moving and working. All the options are there for them. It may just be the circle I'm moving in. My business is virtual, I work with a team all over Europe online. In the UK the closest I feel it is in the professionals and upper classes in London. Rest of my British friends though don't feel part of it. I know Nurses who feel like they've been pushed out, lost job security and replaced by cheaper staff from Europe ( Even though it's more a case of UK Government policy) and they have nowhere to go to. I think it's a case of propaganda outreach. Things to encourage Brits to apply for jobs across Europe and for them to see the the ability of working and living in the EU. Most of my friends see living in Europe and the four freedoms as they're known as something only applying to the rich and not to them, with all the movement of people being a one way stream into the UK. For them the options of living and working abroad are the likes of Australia, The USA, Canada and so on. It never seemed a possibility to them that it was easier to do so in Europe. Yes I know some will say Language and so on but the reality isn't that but more perception I think.
Not sure I'm making sense.
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Lol. NoOoh @Stanley Road, you are betraying the cause, aren't you?
But they have a valid point. Good luck to them.
They may have no choice
You say "language barriers" like is not much, but precisely is the main problem. Not because the language itself but cultual/mental. In europe, we grow knowing that w need to learn english because it open doors, home an abroad. That shows a respect for another culture and adaptability (as well as put some effort in it). My experience afte more than a year in UK is the anglocentrism (majority, not everybody of course). For that majority. others have to adapt, they do not have to make any effort and they have the perception that the anglosphere is very big (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), and is true geographically, but not easy burocratically compared with EU as you said.
What it makes of "the others have to adapt" is a sense of superiority that the lowlifes come here to leech in UK and the laziness of not wanting to go to another country as they would have to adapt to go there, as they don't have that early development of learning a language because is needed but if they learn a language is an extra or even almost a favour and the perception that if they get a job abroad is because they are native in english and they are making a favour to the employee.
The same behaviour was seen in french people when french was relegated by english as the international language, so losing prestige. France even left some international organizationsthat promoted languages and french are amongst the worst english speakers (not new generations) despite having more resources for education than other countries that speaks better english as again, in my perception (so obviously only my truth) french people were very annoyed to learn english (again, who adapts to who)/
Of course I am generalizing but is my perception than having to learn a language or expecting that others learn it, changes the mentality to go abroad or not.
Besides, UK always had a sense of superiority and distinction towards the continent, so it is normal than some might see foreigners like parasites
Rules would modify in a way to make sure that this won't happen. There's no way that the EU would accept Non EU people to have as many rights as EU people in the EU unless the Non EU countries agrees to offer the same to EU people. Its just another attempt of cherry picking.
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They are going to quote the Lisbon treaty mate, thats their trump card. Its not any fruit picking its on paper. Hiw would you argue against the treaty to deny them?
Their argument is that there's nothing on the Lisbon treaty regarding someone leaving the EU. So in reality there's nothing on paper. We'll have to wait and see. I find it very hard to believe the EU will accept such cherry picking. Its more likely that it will be shot down early on. If the ECJ does rule in their favour then I can see the EU amending the Lisbon treaty to cater for such anomaly as soon as Brexit occur. In that case the UK government or its expats will have little to no power to defend against that.
Its ironic that British citizens would resort to the much hated ECJ to defend their own very freedom of movement especially when FOM was one of the main reasons why the Brits voted Brexit in the first place. There again most of these people weren't allowed to vote for Brexit which was about them getting their 'country' back.
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I would have to look at it deeper but the treaty doesn't really help them as far as I can tell, in fact you could argue that the answer is pretty straightforward. According to the treaty, EU citizenship is linked to the condition of being a national of a member state, the UK withdrawing means that british nationals in the EU aren't EU citizens but only eventual residents.
they are quoting article 20 and the lack of clarity in case a member state seize being a member. I am no lawyer but the article is quite clear on this
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th...-citizenship-of-the-union/162-article-20.html
Citizenship of the Union is hereby established. Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship.
Once a country is not a member state.........
I'm quoting the same article and it's not really ambiguous. You have a simple question to ask, are they nationals of a member state?
In reality the lawyer knows that he has little ground with that article, the real trick is somewhere else. Judges don't like to take rights away from people particularly when they have done nothing wrong at a personal level. So here the interesting part is whether the judges are positivist or not.
I don't think that judges would get arsed about removing rights to the few thousand UK immigrants living in the Netherlands. However this ruling has the potential to give full EU rights to all UK citizens born prior to Brexit irrespective were they reside. It also put EU immigrants living in the UK in a disadvantage as the UK government would have little interest to defend these people's rights if it knows that its people living on the continent are automatically protected. That's too much of a risk for the EU as a whole to accept. I can't help thinking that even if the ECJ had to rule in favour of these expats then the EU will amend the Lisbon treaty to close this anomaly.
Galileo satellite systems will be moved to Spain. Not many jobs will be lost but it can hardly be seen as yet another victory in the struggle to take the country back.
What do you mean? Its ground stations weren't in the UK to begin with. Given we are among the higher contrinuters to ESA (a non-EU agency), any moves in the future to marginalsie our involvement would be a mostly political act on the part of the EU. There are alternative patnerships we can pursue of coure, if that is where the wind is blowing.
Apparently there is a monitoring centre in the UK, which will now be in Spain. As I say, not a great loss but still a loss.
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Data storage is moving to Spain
Cheap labour. Were moving our production to Taiwan, even cheaper. Race to the gutter.
No, data protection laws won't allow storage in the UK after Brexit
To me that does leave the possibility that one could be a citizen of the union without being a national of a member state though. If citizenship of the union means anything it would presumably would have to mean that it can't just be taken away by 17m other citizens who happen to live in the same member state?
If they can make this into a judicial thing rather than a political one I think they might have a case to make.
(I'm not completely convinced by it, just trying to see their side of it)
Still, they will move to Spain where labour is cheap. Its all we need to know.
Not really since EU citizenship can't replace national citizenship, the latter creates the former.
If that was the only consideration they would have moved it to Eastern Europe
Wages are on the rise in eastern Europe. A colleague of mine on 90k in nl was asked to name his price to move to Poland for one company. Hard to imagine a few years back.
I don't know the law enough to comment beyond what I already did. However I agree with @JPRouve on this one. I also think that if the court decide on these expats favour then amends will be made in the Lisbon treaty to change how things work out. There's too many people who will benefit/get punished for this for the EU to ignore.
What's your source on this?
Whilst it's possible, the proposed regulation on both sides at the moment provide alignment so i don't see that being the case at all. Even if it wasn't aligned there's possibilities to still transfer under agreement as plenty of companies do at the moment.
I thought about an other angle for the EU lawyers. If among British nationals you only allow british nationals immigrants to keep EU citizenship, you effectively creates two classes of british nationals, you don't respect the principles of equality. If you give that right to all british nationals, you partially diminish Uk's powers on their own citizens because they have the right to be represented by the EU, for the example the ECJ.
Also, what you are talking about isn't an opinion that's the second paragraph of the article 21. The EU parliament and the council can adapt the rules to make them clearer and more workable.
I agree. In my opinion its yet another attempt of cherry picking. TBF I feel sorry for those immigrants. Most weren't even given the chance to vote regarding Brexit. Its terrifying to think that the only outlet they can resort to is a foreign court of law.
On average they are lower in Eastern Europe, as ever you are desperate to blame the EU.
It's not quite that simple though. There's also the issue that we will be paying into the EU and our resident countries via taxes yet receiving no representation from either. That makes a lot of EU people very uneasy.
But isn't that what happens to third country immigrants in the UK?
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You will be represented as a resident not as a citizen/national, like all foreigners.
Ordinarily you'd both be right, but we're talking about representation being actually removed, and in many cases those same people lacking representation in their home country too due to the 15 year rule. Taking away people's EU citizenship when they're already resident in the EU, and thereby removing their representation while still taxing them is something the likes of Verhofstadt have already been making waves about in the EU parliament. Apparently he has a lot of support there too.
But that's what will happen to EU immigrants in the UK. I doubt Verhofstadt will get alot of support into pushing an asymetric system were EU immigrants are treated worse if they live/ want to live in the UK then UK citizens being treated in the EU if they live/want to move there. That's the epitomy of cherry picking.