Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Stanley Road]

funny thread this https://www.redcafe.net/threads/eurolands-debt-strategy-is-an-economic-and-moral-disgrace.360295/

Especially Jaz a financial expert that got everything wrong and was full of shit, a Tory.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Facts and brextremism don't mix well, that's how.

Sorry had to fix this.

 

[jackofalltrades]

In a meeting today, at which we were not present, it seems that the EU 27 took 2 minutes to agree on what terms to offer the UK. Rees-Mogg is saying that we'll become a vassal state. Now only 14 months to go and one Tory minister has called the hard-brexiteer ministers "swivel-eyed". That doesn't look good.

 

[Rightnr]

The government has finally admitted what all sensible people suspected since the beginning of this charade - we'll be worse off under all scenarios. The only positive I can find in all of this is that even the government cannot and or are unable to lie to themselves about the negative impact of Brexit but conversely, it means it has to be really bad for them to be unable to spin it in a more positive, red, white and blue fashion....


I would now like to invite all the genius Brexiters on here to argue why these studies won't reflect reality, in a broad sense, of leaving the EU and how we'll be better off once we leave.

EDIT1: The best thing about the three scenarios considered is that to offset some of the negatives, there is consideration of 'relaxing' employment laws, environmental standards and regulation. I thought that'd never happen but I guess lying is to these people is like breathing for other common folk.

 

[Cheesy]

The government has finally admitted what all sensible people suspected since the beginning of this charade - we'll be worse off under all scenarios. The only positive I can find in all of this is that even the government cannot and or are unable to lie to themselves about the negative impact of Brexit but conversely, it means it has to be really bad for them to be unable to spin it in a more positive, red, white and blue fashion....


I would now like to invite all the genius Brexiters on here to argue why these studies won't reflect reality, in a broad sense, of leaving the EU and how we'll be better off once we leave.

Asked why the prime minister was not making the analysis public, a DExEU source told BuzzFeed News: "Because it's embarrassing.

fecking hell.

 

[Rightnr]

Also, taxpayers' money was used to fund the group of that worm JRM and his loonies. I get pissed off just looking at him. He's so bad, it makes me dread losing Theresa.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/tory-ministers-taxpayer-cash-hard-Brexit-erg

 

[Steven Seagull]

By rubbishing the benefits of the Norway route, cretins like JRM have only themselves to blame for this

 

[Rightnr]

The things is, even that leaves us 2% worse off with, as I mentioned, reduced protection for workers and the environment. It's a bloody lose, lose. Why can't people see it... argh.

 

[711]

2% to 8% less growth over 15 years would be much better than I've feared to be honest. I'm quite cheered up.

 

[Rightnr]

Great to hear. Now you can go back to enjoying the sand, seeing as that's where most Brexiters' heads are located most of the time.

The economic impact of of a 1% reduction in GDP is usually substantial in terms of increased poverty which will obviously allow the rich to exploit workers even more after the cosy fire the Tories will build with all that inconvenient regulation.

It's not even worth thinking what 8% will do and that is assuming a trade deal with the other major economies comes through.

 

[711]

Great to hear. Now you can go back to enjoying the sand, seeing as that's where most Brexiters' heads are located most of the time.

The economic impact of of a 1% reduction in GDP is usually substantial in terms of increased poverty which will obviously allow the rich to exploit workers even more after the cosy fire the Tories will build with all that inconvenient regulation.

It's not even worth thinking what 8% will do and that is assuming a trade deal with the other major economies comes through.

I'm not a Brexiter, and I think you missed the bit where I said 'better than I'd feared'.

 

[Rightnr]

I'm sorry about sounding so defensive but I thought you were trolling me. Why?
Because a 5-6% drop (taking the average of the three scenarios) is awful given all the assumed mitigating circumstances.

Just look at how the 2008 crisis is still being felt by normal people. It is by no means a 'it's not as bad as we hoped' verdict. I will be OK but I just really fear for the more vulnerable in this country.

All of these discussions also centre around numbers. We are not even discussing loss of influence on the international stage.

 

[711]

I'm sorry about sounding so defensive but I thought you were trolling me. Why?
Because a 5-6% drop (taking the average of the three scenarios) is awful given all the assumed mitigating circumstances.

Just look at how the 2008 crisis is still being felt by normal people. It is by no means a 'it's not as bad as we hoped' verdict. I will be OK but I just really fear for the more vulnerable in this country.

All of these discussions also centre around numbers. We are not even discussing loss of influence on the international stage.

Not voting Tory would be a good start.
You've still misread me by the way, I didn't say 'not as bad as we hoped', I said 'better than I'd feared'. A bit different.

 

[Rightnr]

I get what you're saying but if it was any worse, we'd talking disaster levels.

On voting Tory (and I now have the right to vote), believe me when I say this - I won't be voting Tory for a very long time, if ever again. My constituency is Lib Dem anyway, so I feel quite at home even if they are not in great shape atm.

I first got interested in British politics when I saw a government which includes May may come into power. It's all been mostly downhill from there.

 

[Steven Seagull]

I’d imagine most leavers would be over the moon with a 1% drop if it got us out of the EU. Remainers still seem to believe it’s all about the economy but it isn’t. Can’t see too many people on either side being happy with this situation anyway.

 

[Kentonio]

Fair play to Buzzfeed, they've gone from a clickbait joke site, to a news site with some great exclusives. Quite incredible turnaround really.

I’d imagine most leavers would be over the moon with a 1% drop if it got us out of the EU. Remainers still seem to believe it’s all about the economy but it isn’t.

Everything is about the economy. If Leavers genuinely believed it would hurt them personally economically, the vast majority would change to Remain. The trouble is, they don't believe that.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Everything is about the economy. If Leavers genuinely believed it would hurt them personally economically, the vast majority would change to Remain. The trouble is, they don't believe that.

I’m not so sure. Everything has pointed to a negative impact on the economy since day 1 and yet the polls remain pretty steady.

 

[GloryHunter07]

If Leavers genuinely believed it would hurt them personally economically, the vast majority would change to Remain. The trouble is, they don't believe that.

Not sure how you can say that forst bit with so much conviction. Second bit is probably true though.

 

[JPRouve]

I’m not so sure. Everything has pointed to a negative impact on the economy since day 1 and yet the polls remain pretty steady.

I'm pretty sure that it's because the narrative was that experts knew nothing or were working for the EU. At least that's what the FN used to say in France, I assume that UKIP are the same.

 

[Steven Seagull]

I'm pretty sure that it's because the narrative was that experts knew nothing or were working for the EU. At least that's what the FN used to say in France, I assume that UKIP are the same.

Nobody cares about the economy because they just want all the foreigners out.

 

[JPRouve]

Nobody cares about the economy because they just want all the foreigners out.

I would say that some want the foreigners out and others believe everything their camp claims, including lunacies like "we know better than experts".

 

[Steven Seagull]

I would say that some want the foreigners out and others believe everything their camp claims, including lunacies like "we know better than experts".

That was my initial point. Buzzfeeds massively unshocking financial news won’t matter a jot to a huge amount of people who voted. They have other gripes

 

[Adebesi]

I honestly think there is a significant constituency of Leave voters who did understand we would take an economic hit and voted Leave anyway. Politics is usually driven by the economy, but on this occasion I think there were cultural issues at play to a greater degree than is usually the case.

Even to the extent it is about the economy, these kinds of numbers - a loss of 2% of growth or 5% of growth or whatever - are pretty meaningless. Even when the economy is growing strongly people are being left behind, so I think they felt, what do I have to lose?

 

[JPRouve]

I honestly think there is a significant constituency of Leave voters who did understand we would take an economic hit and voted Leave anyway. Politics is usually driven by the economy, but on this occasion I think there were cultural issues at play to a greater degree than is usually the case.

Even to the extent it is about the economy, these kinds of numbers - a loss of 2% of growth or 5% of growth or whatever - are pretty meaningless. Even when the economy is growing strongly people are being left behind, so I think they felt, what do I have to lose?

These kind of numbers aren't meaningless, I don't think people realize what 1% represents.

 

[Kentonio]

Not sure how you can say that forst bit with so much conviction. Second bit is probably true though.

It's a political truism. People's own economic situation (or at least their own perceptions of it) is far and away the primary motivator of their voting patterns. When you talk to Leave voters, it's very clear they believe that while there might be a small temporary bump, that it will lead to a big economic increase later. You can always find a few extremists who genuinely don't care, but for the vast majority anything that makes them poorer is a complete no go.

 

[Adebesi]

These kind of numbers aren't meaningless, I don't think people realize what 1% represents.

Sorry - it may not have been clear what I meant - these kinds of numbers are pretty meaningless to a specific constituency of people, the kind of people who live in small towns where there are very few jobs even when the economy is growing, where anyone with any ambition has to leave (probably to London, or if not to another big city) and where there are load of immigrants who are happy to work for a lot less money than they will work for. Where unemployment is high and, as I said, life has been pretty shit anyway, even when the economy was growing. So they think sod it, so the economy contracts by a few percent, what difference does that make to me when I am living on benefits anyway and cant get a job because Im not a graduate and there are no jobs I have the skills to do, and I cant make ends meet doing the ones there are? They arent the ones who suffer the most when the economy shrinks by 2% (or however much), it is the people in London who suffer when the banks leave - or at least the graduates in the big cities who actually have decent jobs to lose. But why should these unemployed, unqualified people care? They lost their jobs years ago.

This is a massive generalisation of course, but this I think is the kind of sentiment that is out there.

 

[JPRouve]

Sorry - it may not have been clear what I meant - these kinds of numbers are pretty meaningless to a specific constituency of people, the kind of people who live in small towns where there are very few jobs even when the economy is growing, where anyone with any ambition has to leave (probably to London, or if not to another big city) and where there are load of immigrants who are happy to work for a lot less money than they will work for. Where unemployment is high and, as I said, life has been pretty shit anyway, even when the economy was growing. So they think sod it, so the economy contracts by a few percent, what difference does that make to me when I am living on benefits anyway and cant get a job because Im not a graduate and there are no jobs I have the skills to do, and I cant make ends meet doing the ones there are? They arent the ones who suffer the most when the economy shrinks by 2% (or however much), it is the people in London who suffer when the banks leave - or at least the graduates in the big cities who actually have decent jobs to lose. But why should these unemployed, unqualified people care? They lost their jobs years ago.

This is a massive generalisation of course, but this I think is the kind of sentiment that is out there.

Simple. The benefits come from somewhere, if your economy shrinks by 2% to 5%, the benefits will be one of the first target, the people in your town that have a job might lose them which could easily kill your little town, the ones that could have left and partially finance your benefits will be in line with you at the job center or collecting their reduced benefits and that chain continue up to London.

 

[buchansleftleg]

I think some people think Brexit is just being used as a convenient excuse.

Their chocolate bar gets smaller and Brexit is blamed.

They react saying it is rubbish and they move on.

Trying to explain the complex trade involved in getting all aspects of that chocolate bar here, cocoa beans from Africa, cane sugar from Caribbean or beet sugar from domestic growers....but who will help with harvesting the crop with no cheap labour? - it's all too complicated so it is compartmentalised and ignored.

These stats with reductions in growth of 6-8% mask a terrible further truth. The reductions in public spending when the banks collapsed were against a background of these institutions having surpluses and good budgets. By now that has all been cut away and we are hitting bone. The cuts take time to filter through and we will see major institutions collapse if we continue down this road.

The brexiteers that voted in good faith to get the NHS more money may face a critical decision soon - do you want brexit OR the NHS as we can't afford both the way things are going. Interesting to see where people stand on that issue!

 

[Adebesi]

Simple. The benefits come from somewhere, if your economy shrinks by 2% to 5%, the benefits will be one of the first target, the people in your town that have a job might lose them which could easily kill your little town, the ones that could have left and partially finance your benefits will be in line with you at the job center or collecting their reduced benefits and that chain continue up to London.

Right. I get that. But then i voted remain, am a graduate with a decent job, living in a city that hasnt had the life sucked out of it by a lack of opportunities. So my instinctive understanding of the situation is the same as yours. My personal take on it is the same as yours. But I am saying there is a constituency of people in the UK who see things very differently. And the "what is best for London is best for the rest of the country because London pays most of the taxes" argument just doesnt cut it with them. That much is surely evident.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So as has been said all along:
Soft Brexit: As you were, but no vote, no rebates and 2% drop in GDP, Remainers say whoopee!
Hard Brexit: 8% drop in GDP, economic hell - Brexiters say whoopee!

Looking for the benefit.

 

[Tincanalley]

What the f... just happened? The British mass media had spun an anti-EU and xenophobic agenda for years. Brexit advocates emphasized immigration and lost revenue in their arguments. Mix in a vague romance about England, Great Britain etc., and a unique set of political circumstances.

The Tories shoring up their right flank, UKIP, Boris; what a toxic cocktail steamed in the pot. The romance, of course, was just that, never more than a comfy bit of double-think, lip service for soft-focus Tories, a harmless delusion based around old glories, like a BBC re-run of a seventies favourite.

Until unexpectedly, almost impossibly, it went live, like an experimental virus escaping a lab. When it actually happened, that very day, the promoters looked more shocked than its opponents. Like Trumpism, anti-decision took on a life of its own, a millennial fever raged. Time itself and everyday reality appeared suspended as the ship of state wildly veered along a totally unplanned, nakedly populist course. No one expected the adults not to come back and restore order.

The next day reality is bitter. It’s nice to sing the old songs, especially in the witching hour, but the gap between how the international fabric works and the Britannia Rules the Waves myth is cruelly exposed in the cold light of day.

The trend - as shown by the gov’s own research as per Buzzfeed leak - is grim, that is, if Brexit goes ahead. All is not lost though. The Trump era will end. The mystery money to the DUP will not come again. Brexit fever shows signs of wearing off. Some ugly rocks loom up ahead. Only question now is the extent of the damage, politically, economically and in terms of international standing, before sanity is restored.

 

[Adebesi]

So as has been said all along:
Soft Brexit: As you were, but no vote, no rebates and 2% drop in GDP, Remainers say whoopee!
Hard Brexit: 8% drop in GDP, economic hell - Brexiters say whoopee!

Looking for the benefit.

A: We get to make our own laws.
Q: And which laws in particular are you looking forward to changing?
A: Er...... not sure really. But at least theyll be our laws, dammit.

Its really all about migrants I think. But there is no turning back the clock and I doubt in the end the control (if we even get it back) will be worth the price we end up paying for it. I mean, for sure I wont think so, but I suspect even people who voted to Leave will end up feeling the price was way too high.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

A: We get to make our own laws.
Q: And which laws in particular are you looking forward to changing?
A: Er...... not sure really. But at least theyll be our laws, dammit.

Its really all about migrants I think. But there is no turning back the clock and I doubt in the end the control (if we even get it back) will be worth the price we end up paying for it. I mean, for sure I wont think so, but I suspect even people who voted to Leave will end up feeling the price was way too high.

I've been waiting for two years for a Brexiter to name one law.
It is all about immigrants and some form of fantasy national identity. On the economic front Brexiters say that they don't care if the economy takes a hit as long as they get their way but at the same time claim that they want to save the £8bn (or £20+bn if you're Boris Johnson) a year.

Reality is slowly getting closer and this fantasy world Brexiters are hoping for gets further away day by day.

 

[devilish]

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/n...istopher_chandler_passport_malta#.WnBm9rxl8ps

Brexit billionaire Christopher Chandler obtains EU passport through Malta IIP

 

[GloryHunter07]

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/n...istopher_chandler_passport_malta#.WnBm9rxl8ps

Brexit billionaire Christopher Chandler obtains EU passport through Malta IIP

Brexiters in integrity shocker.

 

[Adebesi]

I've been waiting for two years for a Brexiter to name one law.

When asked, Rees-Mogg always trots out a load of laws pertaining to farming subsidies which hurt his constituents. To be fair even most pro EU people want to reform the CAP.

 

[devilish]

Brexiters in integrity shocker.

I am not particularly proud of Malta's IIP tbh but this takes the biscuit. Its seems ok for this Brexiteer to buy his way into Europe while keeping the rest of the Brits away from such benefit.

 

[Adebesi]

I don't understand why the Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime gets so much prominence considering that he got owned by friggin Ali G. Expert trade negotiations will wipe the floor with him.

I dont really get it either. He comes across as quite sincere, maybe? Certainly compared to a lot of other politicians. And while he is right wing, he has a sort of old-school Tory paternalistic kindness thing going on. Without question he is about as out of touch as it is possible to be, a super rich Etonian who has no idea what its like for anyone in the bottom 95% of the UK. And yet somehow it comes across that he at least might care - a little bit - if he knew. He seems... well meaning? Again, in comparison with the Tory party average.

That is the best I can do, in terms of explaining it. That is the sense i get. Certainly, the Tories I know regard him almost like a rock star, though there is a slight irony in their deference as well, an acknowledgement that part of his "cool" is how utterly uncool he is. I guess for some people that has some sort of appeal.

A general election pitting Rees Mogg's Tories against Labour under Corbyn would certainly be interesting.

 

[devilish]

I dont really get it either. He comes across as quite sincere, maybe? Certainly compared to a lot of other politicians. And while he is right wing, he has a sort of old-school Tory paternalistic kindness thing going on. Without question he is about as out of touch as it is possible to be, a super rich Etonian who has no idea what its like for anyone in the bottom 95% of the UK. And yet somehow it comes across that he at least might care - a little bit - if he knew. He seems... well meaning? Again, in comparison with the Tory party average.

That is the best I can do, in terms of explaining it. That is the sense i get. Certainly, the Tories I know regard him almost like a rock star, though there is a slight irony in their deference as well, an acknowledgement that part of his "cool" is how utterly uncool he is. I guess for some people that has some sort of appeal.

A general election pitting Rees Mogg's Tories against Labour under Corbyn would certainly be interesting.

I think the Tory party will not win next GE. I doubt they even want to win in the first place. Sometimes in politics you reach a stage when parties are so stuck up in mud that they simply need some time in opposition to regroup. The Brexiteer strategy was to throw a spanner into the EU system which they hoped to either destroy the entire system or force the EU to give the UK a deal it can't refuse. It didn't work out. Now Trump can tank that as the US can afford not having a great relationship with the EU. Can the UK afford that? I doubt it.

Under such circumstance instead of being confronted with the consequences of their lies, I think that the Tories are better off with JC taking the Brexit hot potato off their hands. He will of course 'make a mess out of it' (the hype surrounding the UK is so big that nothing short then a scenario where the EU,US, India and China do not beg for a trade deal will be considered a dissapointment) and then be blamed it.

 

[Adebesi]

I think the Tory party will not win next GE. I doubt they even want to win in the first place. Sometimes in politics you reach a stage when parties are so stuck up in mud that they simply need some time in opposition to regroup. The Brexiteer strategy was to throw a spanner into the EU system which they hoped to either destroy the entire system or force the EU to give the UK a deal it can't refuse. It didn't work out. Now Trump can tank that as the US can afford not having a great relationship with the EU. Can the UK afford that? I doubt it.

Under such circumstance instead of being confronted with the consequences of their lies, I think that the Tories are better off with JC taking the Brexit hot potato off their hands. He will of course 'make a mess out of it' (the hype surrounding the UK is so big that nothing short then a scenario where the EU,US, India and China do not beg for a trade deal will be considered a dissapointment) and then be blamed it.

I agree whoever is in charge when we march off the Brexit cliff is going to have a very, very big problem. I guess the fact both sides appear to be doing everything they can to portray themselves as unelectable morons would support your theory that the Tories dont really want power (and neither, in that case, do Labour). It would explain why nobody is challenging May, despite the current leader having absolutely nothing going for her at all. You could ask who would want to lead the Tories now. But there is at least one person - Boris Johnson.

Actually I dont think politicians are that sophisticated. They want to win because they want power and they think they have the answers. I think one side of the Tory party is genuinely rabidly anti-EU and desperate for the chance to realise their career-long ambition of getting us out. And the other side probably think they are the only ones who can steer us safely though the minefield without blowing the country up, while saving us from descending into Trotskyism. And then you have Labour, who really ought to be the ones keenest to steer clear of the whole sorry business until after the issue has been settled, who must be determined to get their hands on power, having spent the past 3 decades assuming they would never lead anything more significant than a CND march.

So as much as it looks like everyone is doing their best to appear incompetent, in fact I suspect actually they all really are.