Stanley Road
Renaissance Man
On average they are lower in Eastern Europe, as ever you are desperate to blame the EU.
Just stated a fact and you're never desperate to defend the eu right?
On average they are lower in Eastern Europe, as ever you are desperate to blame the EU.
But that's what will happen to EU immigrants in the UK. I doubt Verhofstadt will get alot of support into pushing an asymetric system were EU immigrants are treated worse if they live/ want to live in the UK then UK citizens being treated in the EU if they live/want to move there. That's the epitomy of cherry picking.
Ordinarily you'd both be right, but we're talking about representation being actually removed, and in many cases those same people lacking representation in their home country too due to the 15 year rule. Taking away people's EU citizenship when they're already resident in the EU, and thereby removing their representation while still taxing them is something the likes of Verhofstadt have already been making waves about in the EU parliament. Apparently he has a lot of support there too.
First the taxes have nothing to do in the question, all residents are subjected to taxes whether they are nationals or foreigners, so that point is weird, I do hope that you are not thinking about the "No taxation without representation" slogan. Secondly, as foreigners they are represented by their ambassadors and consuls and in Brussels they are indirectly represented by the country that host them.
Also being residents in the EU doesn't equate to being a citizen of the EU, it's not the EU that took the EU citizenship away from people, it's the British nation who voted for a withdrawal from the treaty that equated member states nationality to EU citizenship, when you cancel one, you cancel the other. It's unfortunate but that's how democracy works, the voting majority decided for you, if you really want to be a EU citizen, you can become a EU national.
Actually it was Verhofstadt who brought up the 'no taxation without representation' quote, not me. Representation references democratic representation, not representation by ambassadors or consols. It's a potential issue here, because of the involuntary removal of EU citizenship from people who have relocated into the EU under the (sometimes lifelong) understanding that they are EU citizens with full rights to democratic representation. For many of them, they weren't even allowed a vote on the issue of whether to lose that citizenship. That raises some serious concerns.
Actually I can't. I'll have been in France for 4 years and a bit years when Brexit arrives. It takes 5 years before you can apply for French citizenship, so thank you very fecking much Leave voters.
As to the wider point about what EU citizenship means, that's something you can't make a concrete statement about, because it hasn't yet been tested. If the proponents of the EU project are serious about the importance of citizenship, then it's not necessarily as simple as just 'but you can lose it involuntarily if enough of your fellow nationals want to throw it away'. There are major EU parliament conversations to be had on the issue and ECJ rulings to be made. Right now none of us know what will happen, because this is unprecedented.
Thats something British expats should forward to the 'getting back control' British government. Its not te EU's fault that Westminster couldn't be arsed to give you a meaningful voice. If the EU accepts that then it will open a whole new can of worms were immigrants from third countries would ask for pretty much the same. It will also mean that the UK government will have no incentive to provide EU immigrants any good terms at all as their own people are already automatically protected.
Im pretty much in the same situation. Under such circumstances I choose to show the middle finger and go back to my country. As said, EU rights are for EU members. Once the UK is not in the EU anymore then unless the UK and the EU agree about safeguarding such rights then that's pretty much game over.
I seriously can't see how the EU will accept its members to end up with less rights then UK citizens.
Actually it was Verhofstadt who brought up the 'no taxation without representation' quote, not me. Representation references democratic representation, not representation by ambassadors or consols. It's a potential issue here, because of the involuntary removal of EU citizenship from people who have relocated into the EU under the (sometimes lifelong) understanding that they are EU citizens with full rights to democratic representation. For many of them, they weren't even allowed a vote on the issue of whether to lose that citizenship. That raises some serious concerns.
As to the wider point about what EU citizenship means, that's something you can't make a concrete statement about, because it hasn't yet been tested. If the proponents of the EU project are serious about the importance of citizenship, then it's not necessarily as simple as just 'but you can lose it involuntarily if enough of your fellow nationals want to throw it away'. There are major EU parliament conversations to be had on the issue and ECJ rulings to be made. Right now none of us know what will happen, because this is unprecedented.
“Union citizenship is destined to be the fundamental status of nationals of the Member States, enabling those who find themselves in the same situation to enjoy the same treatment in law irrespective of their nationality, subject to such exceptions as are expressly provided for.”[
“Article 20 TFEU precludes national measures that have the effect of depriving citizens of the Union of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights conferred by virtue of their status as citizens of the Union”
It wouldn't necessarily open any can of worms with new immigrants, because of the unique situation of UK citizens in the EU already having citizenship. It's about taking it away, not granting it in the first place.
The second point is the biggest problem, and yet another example of the UK government not giving a single feck about our needs. I completely agree that May and her henchmen would exploit the feck out of it.
That's easy for you to say, when you get to return to the EU. I do agree with your last point though, and I don't seriously expect it to happen, its just a wild card that is still vaguely possible if the stars align right.
Just stated a fact and you're never desperate to defend the eu right?
As said I geniunely feel sorry for you but the EU is not the bad guy here. You should be consider if you're happy with a government who totally ignored your rights as a citizen to decide your country's fate and then vote adequately. British expats should return to blighty in droves and use their vote to make sure that Brexiteers will never see Westminster ever again. Same thing can be said to the Scottish and the Northern Irish who are being dragged out of Europe against their will.
2nd paragraph. Thats exactly their point isnt it? Where does it say in the treaty you cancel one you cancel the other? They may have chance on legal technicality.First the taxes have nothing to do in the question, all residents are subjected to taxes whether they are nationals or foreigners, so that point is weird, I do hope that you are not thinking about the "No taxation without representation" slogan. Secondly, as foreigners they are represented by their ambassadors and consuls and in Brussels they are indirectly represented by the country that host them.
Also being residents in the EU doesn't equate to being a citizen of the EU, it's not the EU that took the EU citizenship away from people, it's the British nation who voted for a withdrawal from the treaty that equated member states nationality to EU citizenship, when you cancel one, you cancel the other. It's unfortunate but that's how democracy works, the voting majority decided for you, if you really want to be a EU citizen, you can become a EU national.
Why on earth would I consider the EU the bad guy? I'm completely on the EU's side in this, and frankly my own government can go feck themselves. There is absolutely zero chance that I'd return to the UK just to try and vote out Brexiteers who it appears represent half my country. feck them, I'll hang on here until I can get citizenship if at all possible, and if not I'll find a new country to live in. If the UK want to close the doors to the world, then I have absolutely no intention of being on the inside when they do.
As said I am geniunely sorry for the way you were treated and honestly I wouldn't mind if the EU gives expats FOM as long as the UK returns the favour. However, this will effect not just you but all UK citizens. There's something really wrong if Brexiteers get more FOM then we do.
I've asked my Spanish colleagues if they would like to move back and they all said "yes, but you cant get decent money"Apparently tech companies move just for low wages to Spain. It can't never happen that in Spain there is good tech companies or events because of the quality of the employers. Stanley is on the verge to say that Spain is a shithole like trump. Take a look at barcelona and how innovative it is and stop being a xenofobic topic lover. No wonder you are a pro-Brexit guy
2nd paragraph. Thats exactly their point isnt it? Where does it say in the treaty you cancel one you cancel the other? They may have chance on legal technicality.
Again, where does it say in the treaty that if a country leaves? Its not black and white.I posted the two precedents that they are allegedly using here, it's not about what you think. Their problem is with Brexit itself, it is the measure that is preventing them from fully enjoying their current EU citizenship, if a judge agrees with that then Brexit becomes illegal from the EU POV, it also means that EU citizenship supersedes national citizenship.
And you don't need to mention any cancellation, the condition to be a EU citizen is to be a national of a member state.
Again, where does it say in the treaty that if a country leaves? Its not black and white.
I recently made a claim against my company for compensation I thought I was entitled to, the lawyers said they they could find nothing in the law that said I was or wasn't, it became a grey area. They had to refer to a previous case in the Netherlands that was similar and the person taking the company to court lost simply, cos there was nothing written on paper or in law.
Here there are no previous cases to refer to so it's going to be a technical decision or at worst, a legal opinion.
I've asked my Spanish colleagues if they would like to move back and they all said "yes, but you cant get decent money"
One said it was a "corrupt shithole"
But no, it's me that's xfobic. UK is a shithole aswell.
They dont need anyone to create a law, they will just argue 'where does it say that.......?'That's not what the initiative is about, they don't really have a lot of legal ground, what they want is convince a judge to support a EU regulation that would allow people to keep EU citizenship in spite of jus soli and jus sanguinis, because they know that at the moment EU citizenship is based on jus soli. They took the case to court in order to force the UK to reciprocate these rights because they think that Brexit is in a way a measure to reduce their rights which is against EU laws and principles.
If you look at the treaty, they don't really have a ground to keep their right but they can definitely convince someone to create the law, which is their goal.
ok, labour is cheaper in spain than NL, DE, DK, SE, etc. Fact, sorry dudeEven being true, it did not happen in your mind that was not for cheap labour but because they have oustanding level workers. just cheap labour just cheap labour.
Yes, you are xenofobic with those comments
ok, labour is cheaper in spain than NL, DE, DK, SE, etc. Fact, sorry dude
They dont need anyone to create a law, they will just argue 'where does it say that.......?'
no, no sorry for facts
Sorry for not consider that is because they have good professionals
you are a xenofobic individual. Fact, and sorry not sorry dude
Ok lets see how it pans out but i disagree. I cant be arsed to argue.No they won't and that's not what they are doing either. Here you have the argument and train of thought of the lawyer, you can notice that all the cases include EU nationals, it's their rights that are protected not the ones of the people with them, in the case of minors the adults are given special rights in order to allow the EU national ( their children) to fully enjoy their rights.
The flaw is the nationality and like I said earlier they are aiming at the judge not the treaty.
Ok lets see how it pans out but i disagree. I cant be arsed to argue.
yup the way you are is normal you can´tRight ok, good post. Wish i knew what it meant.
no, no sorry for facts
Sorry for not consider that is because they have good professionals
you are a xenofobic individual. Fact, and sorry not sorry dude
There’s nothing xenophobic about the truth. Cheap labour is 99% of the reason why tech companies move.
In the UK most of the big tech distributors have all their warehouses in the north, and so does Amazon, not because of the level of professionals, that never entered their mind when making the decision, but because of the cheap labour and cheap real estate. They can afford to pay people less money because the cost of living is low and they can buy land and developments very cheap.
Apple, Microsoft and a host of other companies carried out most of their UK operations from Ireland, not because of the level of professionals but because of their taxation levels, cheap labour and real estate.
Dell moved their production from Ireland to Poland, again not because of the level of professionals but in their own words in favour of the cheaper workforce. Their moved their finance and accounting from UK to Czech Republic again not because of the level of professionals but because they could pay people to do the same job for half the money.
There are professionals doing the same job in every country to the same standard so the decision for corporations will come based on their goals and saving money is always top of the pile so there’s no reason to be offended.
Thats the spirit. Every silver lining has a cloud.
What I found most interesting was his assertion that Brexit was not the most important factor concerning Britain's economic future.
It's coming from a lower base, having had a longer and deeper recession, with an ECB policy misstep thrown in along the way.How is Europe doing so well, I thought the EU killed growth?
It's coming from a lower base, having had a longer and deeper recession, with an ECB policy misstep thrown in along the way.