Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[FlawlessThaw]

Anti EU sentiment does seem to have died down a bit but I didnt even mention that as one of the possible reasons for its disintegration. I am talking about more structural problems - though those problems do then feed into the public perception. Take the lack of a fiscal transfer mechanism, that means debt crises in the South are essentially built into the system. The underlying problems we had with Greece were never actually dealt with, they treated the symptoms, not the cause. The country has the same amount of debt it had before, it is no more likely to be able to pay it than it was before, so it would be bold to predict that issue wont rear its head again in a few years. Italy still has issues.

And the migrant crisis. It may not be causing as much angst among voters right now as it was 12 months ago, but it is creating plenty of problems between national governments. These may well not prove terminal, but would you bet your house they wont? If some countries are taking the whole burden on themselves and others point-blank refuse to take anyone in to relieve the pressure on their EU partners, what does that do to trust between EU members?

As I said, I am not predicting the EU will fail, Im saying its a possibility. The EU could certainly take the opportunity presented by the exit of one of its most obstructionist members to actually properly integrate and create a more cohesive EU economy, but I dont think Britain can take full responsibility for the EU's inertia. It seems to be in its DNA.

I think the point you made that the EU will waddle its way through is true. It's a huge institution but the likelihood is that it will feel some pain with the UK leaving, Southern European economic problems and Eurozone.

The migrant crisis is likely to be an issue irrespective of the EU, that is a largely global issue with climate change being the broad driver of that. It will definitely apply pressure but it's likely to do so any even if the EU didn't have freedom of movement.

I just disagree that there is a reasonable chance the EU will unravel, sure it could do as anything has a chance but dreams of Brexiteers that the EU will disappear looks far from happening. That isn't to say the EU itself won't have any pain would also be a ridiculous statement.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Actually the Isle of Man isnt bad either. Its not heaven, I dont think anyone would say it is. But there is a point where, on a clear day, you can see England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, depending on what direction you are facing. The day I was there was not a clear day, but I was told it does happen. So, you know... it does have that going for it.

The Isle of Man is nice in fairness, the climate won't suit a lot of wealthy people mind. I would move there if it was practical, it isn't unfortunately. We have some family friends out there and one flies in for every United home game still.

 

[Stanley Road]

That's where we agree. And then he goes around all sanctimonious telling others that tax heavens are bad.

Exactly, he is a despicable specimen

 

[711]

Actually the Isle of Man isnt bad either. Its not heaven, I dont think anyone would say it is. But there is a point where, on a clear day, you can see England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, depending on what direction you are facing. The day I was there was not a clear day, but I was told it does happen. So, you know... it does have that going for it.

In June I walked from top to bottom, across the middle, half way round and up Snaefell, and there's no doubt it's a damn nice place.

They don't allow immigration though. I know a couple who were offered jobs there, but told that when the jobs ended they would have to leave, even if they worked there twenty years or more.

 

[Stanley Road]

Bearing in mind that the Uk has one of the lowest in Europe and wants to reduce it even further with ardent Brexiters like Owen Paterson wanting the Uk to be more like Singapore , you don't see the irony?

From your side I do as you are quite willing to point out whats wrong with the UK and nothing bad about the horrible creatures governing the eu. Holland is even worse.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

From your side I do as you are quite willing to point out whats wrong with the UK and nothing bad about the horrible creatures governing the eu. Holland is even worse.

I have very little regard for most politicians no matter what their persuasion is, Juncker doesn't represent the EU for me and will probably be gone around the same time as the UK in 2019.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

In June I walked from top to bottom, across the middle, half way round and up Snaefell, and there's no doubt it's a damn nice place.

They don't allow immigration though. I know a couple who were offered jobs there, but told that when the jobs ended they would have to leave, even if they worked there twenty years or more.

Family friends we have are not indigenous to the Isle of Man, he set up his own business there. Not sure what their residency status is though as they have property in a number of countries.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

A little info for the brexiters about pattersons ideal destination for the UK singapore.

There are around 2,323,252 immigrants in Singapore, out of a total population of about 5.5 million.

While median wages are high, the truth is that most locals earn low wages, and 80% of the population live in government provided housing.

If you wish to purchase a car, you have to pay the government $23,000 to be allowed to do so.

When deciding if you think this sounds good or not, remember, you will not be in the 'well paid' section in Patterson's Utopia. You will be the crap living on the edge in destitution, looking in at the golden towers.

 

[Stanley Road]

I have very little regard for most politicians no matter what their persuasion is, Juncker doesn't represent the EU for me and will probably be gone around the same time as the UK in 2019.

But he does have a big influence as has been pointed out, he may not represent the eu to you but he is a representative of the organization as are the heads of nation states, some of them I despise even more.

 

[Stanley Road]

A little info for the brexiters about pattersons ideal destination for the UK singapore.

There are around 2,323,252 immigrants in Singapore, out of a total population of about 5.5 million.

While median wages are high, the truth is that most locals earn low wages, and 80% of the population live in government provided housing.

If you wish to purchase a car, you have to pay the government $23,000 to be allowed to do so.

When deciding if you think this sounds good or not, remember, you will not be in the 'well paid' section in Patterson's Utopia. You will be the crap living on the edge in destitution, looking in at the golden towers.

Well I have some good friends living there earning massive amounts and having good lives however, local contracts are crap.

 

[711]

Family friends we have are not indigenous to the Isle of Man, he set up his own business there. Not sure what their residency status is though as they have property in a number of countries.

Yeah, just had a quick look and it seems things have changed since the couple I knew were offered jobs, which was the best part of twenty years ago. Main problem now seems to be that you need a work permit, but I suppose setting up a business would be a different matter altogether.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But he does have a big influence as has been pointed out, he may not represent the eu to you but he is a representative of the organization as are the heads of nation states, some of them I despise even more.

But you could say that about any structure, you're not going to like many in your country's parliament or even your local council. I can't say I've taken a liking to any politician throughout my whole life.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Well I have some good friends living there earning massive amounts and having good lives however, local contracts are crap.

Yes they are the foreigners making gravy, about 36% of the total population. In pattersons world, you are not those people, you are the locals earning a pittance.

By the way, not only does Singapore rely on immigrant labour, a similar level in the UK would be 30 MILLION foreign workers, how is that for taking back control?

I'd also point out that, and perhaps thios is the part where patterson will explode with the irony, Singapore has prospered by being a central player in ASEAN, the Asian region free trade equivalent of the single market.

In other words, patterson is proposing we are like a country with ultra high immigration and a member of its regional free trade zone, while at the same time, saying that leaving our own free trade single market and closing the borders is the answer.

For democracy to survive, such blatant lies must be challenged by the media, and they are failing us.

 

[Kentonio]

Yeah, just had a quick look and it seems things have changed since the couple I knew were offered jobs, which was the best part of twenty years ago. Main problem now seems to be that you need a work permit, but I suppose setting up a business would be a different matter altogether.

British Citizens
If you are a British citizen you do not require any clearance from the Immigration Office to live in the Isle of Man, but you may require a work permit issued under the Isle of Man Control of Employment Act if you want to work or take up self-employment in the Island.

 

[I Believe]

a few weeks ago it was Merkel rushing in some time in October to do the deal with May and Germany was the power than ran the EU. Y

Germany, with or without Mrs Merkel, will have the final say within the EU as to what if any deal is done with Britain, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it, they are the ultimate paymaster and as the one who pays the piper, they call the tune! Sticking your head in the sand and whistling Paul, pretending its not about money, won't make it so. Germany puts up with Juncker and the rest of the free-loaders in Brussels because the EU as ram-shackled as it is, with widely differing economies, has the majority of countries in the euro-zone, so this help keeps German products competitive much more so than if they still had the D/Mark.

You have to understand it's not about the money but the Uk will still have to pay

I'm sure Theresa would be glad to hear its not about the money, if that is the case I'm sure she would say "we will pay nothing then" Its probably true that if Britain just left and paid nothing at all, then Germany could make up the shortfall, indeed would have to because the rest of the EU couldn't, but wanting to do it is one thing, needing to do it is another!

the Uk have to resolve the Irish border because if they don't there is no choice but a Hard Border

I would agree with you (see we can agree on something) this is probably doing to be the most difficult issue to resolve, especially after the Good Friday agreement; however ultimately, as it always has been, its a problem for the Irish to resolve themselves and only they can do it. Belfast and Dublin will ultimately tell London and Brussels what they are going to do on their island and I suspect neither London, nor Brussels, will like very much what they hear, but both will have to 'suck it up'.

 

[Kentonio]

"Airbus has told MPs that Britain risks losing the “crown jewels” of its aviation industry to China as a result of Brexit, putting up to 7,000 wing-manufacturing jobs in Wales at risk.

The head of the company’s UK operations warned the business select committee that the threat of new customs bureaucracy and reduced employee mobility could deter long-term investment and accelerate a shift to Asia.

Though there are no current plans to move, Katherine Bennett said, adding that she was “fighting to ensure that wing design – the crown jewels of aerospace – remains in this country”.

“I need to let you know, committee, that other countries would dearly love to design and build wings,” she told MPs. “Some of them already do; we do build wings in China now, and believe you me they are knocking at the door as a result of the situation we are in in this country."

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Germany, with or without Mrs Merkel, will have the final say within the EU as to what if any deal is done with Britain, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it, they are the ultimate paymaster and as the one who pays the piper, they call the tune! Sticking your head in the sand and whistling Paul, pretending its not about money, won't make it so. Germany puts up with Juncker and the rest of the free-loaders in Brussels because the EU as ram-shackled as it is, with widely differing economies, has the majority of countries in the euro-zone, so this help keeps German products competitive much more so than if they still had the D/Mark.

I'm sure Theresa would be glad to hear its not about the money, if that is the case I'm sure she would say "we will pay nothing then" Its probably true that if Britain just left and paid nothing at all, then Germany could make up the shortfall, indeed would have to because the rest of the EU couldn't, but wanting to do it is one thing, needing to do it is another!

I would agree with you (see we can agree on something) this is probably doing to be the most difficult issue to resolve, especially after the Good Friday agreement; however ultimately, as it always has been, its a problem for the Irish to resolve themselves and only they can do it. Belfast and Dublin will ultimately tell London and Brussels what they are going to do on their island and I suspect neither London, nor Brussels, will like very much what they hear, but both will have to 'suck it up'.

Germany is the most populated country in the EU and that's why it has the slightly highest say in what goes on, the Uk was one of the big 3 but as its MEPs like Farage never turned up other than to behave like a moron occasionally then why do you think the UK had so little say, blame that on them. The Uk was let down seriously by its MEPs.

For sure the Euro keeps Germany's products competitive, damn a successful economy - don't want that do we , that must be why Brexiters voted to Leave but still try to brag that they've got low unemployment and GDP is growing and that the collapse of the pound was good for the country because it was overvalued etc etc and yet they can't see the contradiction in what they're saying, it's laughable- if they leave without a deal and the pound drops below parity with the Euro will they still say it was overvalued and are happy?

Don't worry the Uk will pay, the main principle is not the money as explained dozens of times, doesn't mean they can run off sneaking out the back door.

The Irish problem is purely the Uk's problem to solve, without Brexit there would not be a problem, with Brexit there is a big problem, should have thought of the consequences beforehand , didn't think did they, still not thinking are they?

 

[berbatrick]

I'm hoping for a thereafter a little more salubrious than the Isle of Man.

 

[I Believe]

Germany is the most populated country in the EU and that's why it has the slightly highest say in what goes on,

Oh I see, 'biggest first' (otherwise known as the law of the Road) that's very democratic, I thought every country had a veto? How can any country have a slightly higher say? Come on Paul, Germany holds sway because it is the wealthiest country, the paymaster, it will dictate the direction of all the important parts of EU policy and that will always be intrinsically to protect the value of the euro, in relation to Germany's output.
That's the reason why, if we stayed in the EU we would not be forced into joining the euro zone as such, but all the EU policies introduced would certainly not favour the pound over the euro and we would be at a disadvantage with Sterling. Eventually majority voting will have to happen in the EU, with the power of veto restricted to only specific issues, e.g. like preventing other countries joining the EU. If the EU does not accept majority voting then it will grind to a halt.
Hence because of this eventuality, Britain would lose the power to opt out, or alternatively would find itself opting out of so much it becomes merely a spectator, also it would not have its rebate recognised and would come under great pressure to eventually join the Euro zone.

Retaining our own currency is vitally important, its a barometer of how the country is doing, Brexit has contributed to its fall, but as you said it was over valued because a lot of the jobs created by the Tories are fleeting, uncertain, seasonal, they come and go, involve zero-hours, or are low paid jobs and undertaken in many cases by low skilled immigrants, doing the jobs that the Brits apparently don't want to (certainly not at low rates and zero hours anyway) do and probably most of whom will return home when the work runs out. One of the reasons comrade Jeremy has opposed the EU for most of his political life was because it was seen as a source of cheap labour, which undermined the British workers negotiating position...apparently!
Being in the EU has allowed the Tories (and Blair) to get away with it, once outside the EU any crutch like excuses British politicians make about employment etc. will ring hollow and the public, should it wish to, can vote out the miscreants, but which of course we can't do the same with the EU commissioners!

The Irish problem is purely the Uk's problem to solve, without Brexit there would not be a problem

Sorry Paul this is ludicrous, there has been a problem in the Island of Ireland for centuries, admittedly involving the UK, but long before Brexit and who knows Brexit might well turn out to be a catalyst for finding a permanent solution.

 

[JPRouve]

Oh I see, 'biggest first' (otherwise known as the law of the Road) that's very democratic, I thought every country had a veto?

Yes, it's democratic, it's actually due to demos. German demos represents 82m people, so logically in some organs there is a pro rata based on the population, for example at the EU parliament.

 

[sullydnl]

Germany, with or without Mrs Merkel, will have the final say within the EU as to what if any deal is done with Britain, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it, they are the ultimate paymaster and as the one who pays the piper, they call the tune! Sticking your head in the sand and whistling Paul, pretending its not about money, won't make it so. Germany puts up with Juncker and the rest of the free-loaders in Brussels because the EU as ram-shackled as it is, with widely differing economies, has the majority of countries in the euro-zone, so this help keeps German products competitive much more so than if they still had the D/Mark.



I'm sure Theresa would be glad to hear its not about the money, if that is the case I'm sure she would say "we will pay nothing then" Its probably true that if Britain just left and paid nothing at all, then Germany could make up the shortfall, indeed would have to because the rest of the EU couldn't, but wanting to do it is one thing, needing to do it is another!



I would agree with you (see we can agree on something) this is probably doing to be the most difficult issue to resolve, especially after the Good Friday agreement; however ultimately, as it always has been, its a problem for the Irish to resolve themselves and only they can do it. Belfast and Dublin will ultimately tell London and Brussels what they are going to do on their island and I suspect neither London, nor Brussels, will like very much what they hear, but both will have to 'suck it up'.

It doesn't seem like you know much about Northern Ireland.

The UK's government is directly involved and cannot simply shift responsibility to Dublin and Belfast. Particularly seeing as the Republic's leader has outright stated that it's up to the UK to find a solution for the problem the UK created. You can't force the ROI to buy into your nonsense terms of negotiation.

Also, the longstanding issues in NI aren't going to be fixed any time soon, so it's massively disingenuous to present Brexit as an opportunity to find a "permanent" solution. There is no permanent solution on the table, nor is anyone even trying to come up with one at this time.

 

[Kentonio]

Sorry Paul this is ludicrous, there has been a problem in the Island of Ireland for centuries, admittedly involving the UK, but long before Brexit and who knows Brexit might well turn out to be a catalyst for finding a permanent solution.

I assume you'd be happy going round to a friends house, pissing on the carpet, and then just going "Why should I clean it, it's your carpet?"

 

[Massive Spanner]

I really hope he's on a WUM or else it worries me that someone in the UK can be so utterly ignorant when it comes to the Irish border and our history.

 

[Kentonio]

I really hope he's on a WUM or else it worries me that someone in the UK can be so utterly ignorant when it comes to the Irish border and our history.

I have the same hopes about the government..

 

[Cheesy]

It doesn't seem like you know much about Northern Ireland.

The UK's government is directly involved and cannot simply shift responsibility to Dublin and Belfast. Particularly seeing as the Republic's leader has outright stated that it's up to the UK to find a solution for the problem the UK created. You can't force the ROI to buy into your nonsense terms of negotiation.

Also, the longstanding issues in NI aren't going to be fixed any time soon, so it's massively disingenuous to present Brexit as an opportunity to find a "permanent" solution. There is no permanent solution on the table, nor is anyone even trying to come up with one at this time.

Yep, ridiculous to say that Belfast will decide when they've quite literally got no government right now and are largely beholden to the UK anyway. It's our mess to sort, and as of yet I've not seen Brexiters propose a credible solution that doesn't involve retaining freedom of movement.

 

[Stanley Road]

Does anyone here have a solution to the Irish border, everyone seems good at talking about it but there can only be a few solutions

open border
hard border
soft border

 

[Cheesy]

Does anyone here have a solution to the Irish border, everyone seems good at talking about it but there can only be a few solutions

open border
hard border
soft border

The current agreement's alright...

 

[Stanley Road]

The current agreement's alright...

I agree, will the eu agree? if they don't then they need to come up with a better solution.

 

[Cheesy]

I agree, will the eu agree? if they don't then they need to come up with a better solution.

Nope, it's our problem. We can't expect to end freedom of movement with the European Union while simultaneously retaining freedom of movement with another EU country. What would your solution be?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Oh I see, 'biggest first' (otherwise known as the law of the Road) that's very democratic, I thought every country had a veto? How can any country have a slightly higher say? Come on Paul, Germany holds sway because it is the wealthiest country, the paymaster, it will dictate the direction of all the important parts of EU policy and that will always be intrinsically to protect the value of the euro, in relation to Germany's output.
That's the reason why, if we stayed in the EU we would not be forced into joining the euro zone as such, but all the EU policies introduced would certainly not favour the pound over the euro and we would be at a disadvantage with Sterling. Eventually majority voting will have to happen in the EU, with the power of veto restricted to only specific issues, e.g. like preventing other countries joining the EU. If the EU does not accept majority voting then it will grind to a halt.
Hence because of this eventuality, Britain would lose the power to opt out, or alternatively would find itself opting out of so much it becomes merely a spectator, also it would not have its rebate recognised and would come under great pressure to eventually join the Euro zone.

Retaining our own currency is vitally important, its a barometer of how the country is doing, Brexit has contributed to its fall, but as you said it was over valued because a lot of the jobs created by the Tories are fleeting, uncertain, seasonal, they come and go, involve zero-hours, or are low paid jobs and undertaken in many cases by low skilled immigrants, doing the jobs that the Brits apparently don't want to (certainly not at low rates and zero hours anyway) do and probably most of whom will return home when the work runs out. One of the reasons comrade Jeremy has opposed the EU for most of his political life was because it was seen as a source of cheap labour, which undermined the British workers negotiating position...apparently!
Being in the EU has allowed the Tories (and Blair) to get away with it, once outside the EU any crutch like excuses British politicians make about employment etc. will ring hollow and the public, should it wish to, can vote out the miscreants, but which of course we can't do the same with the EU commissioners!



Sorry Paul this is ludicrous, there has been a problem in the Island of Ireland for centuries, admittedly involving the UK, but long before Brexit and who knows Brexit might well turn out to be a catalyst for finding a permanent solution.

I can't keep explaining how the EU works, you'd better look it up which Brexiters should have done before deciding to destroy their country's economy.
I didn't say the Pound was overvalued, the Brexiters did.
It was funny when the pound recovered for a short while to around €1.19/£1 and you had a stream of Brexiters so proud, coming on here saying see it hasn't collapsed even though is was over €1.40 two years ago, they went silent when it went back down again because apparently currencies go up and down, well I never knew this after 30 odd years in the business. No, it doesn't matter whether at the moment it goes up and down a few cents, yes currencies fluctuate it's when the trend is down down down.
You do realise the Euro has been in force for over 15 years, the Uk were doing better than the rest of the EU until the Brexit vote, was this because of the Euro? Have you noticed it's not doing quite so well since. We've still some way to go to the cliff edge if the UK decides to jump off.

As for voting out people, you do know their are elections in the EU, I know you've been told there isn't. Did you know you don't vote in the House of Lords, you don't vote for who will be your ministers, you have no say at all. Perhaps people don't want a bumbling fool like Davis to determine the future of their country, sorry don't have a choice.

Of course there's been a problem in Ireland but neither side were planning on changing anything at the moment, Brexit decided that they would change it but typical of Brexit they know how to destroy but offer nothing as a solution.
Davis and even the DUP now say they need to know what the future trade deals will be before having a solution for the Irish border. As per everything else been repeated ad nauseam , if the border remains soft then the Uk remains to the customs union. Uk says they're not going to stay in the customs union therefore the UK are closing the border. There are no other solutions unless the North and South unite and the North is no longer part of the UK. Guess what - the Uk will remain in the customs union.

 

[Oscie]

We have a Tory government hell bent on delivering Brexit and to hell with the consequences and a Labour front bench who seem determine that nobody is going to stop them. Depressing as feck.

On the major issue of our time the difference between the two front benches is 'We think we can shoot ourselves in the head better than you can'.

If we had an opposition who actually OPPOSED Brexit and wanted to represent the majority of people who voted for them and the 48% at the last referendum then I think the government wouldn't be able to get away with half the shit they have done. But McDonnell and Corbyn want out of the EU as much as Rees-Mogg and those on the hard right of the Tory party. They want a different sort of Brexit, but Brexit none the less.

Competence of our negotiations isn't helped by fact Tories know that if ever they get into a sticky position, Corbyn will simply whip his MPs to support them in a vote. Given where most Labour voters/members it's utterly bewildering that their own front bench are, for all the rhetoric, giving succour to the hard Brexit Tories.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I agree, will the eu agree? if they don't then they need to come up with a better solution.

The EU is happy with how it is at the moment , the Uk just have to remain in the customs union and stop moaning about having open borders because this is the only open border they have.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I really hope he's on a WUM or else it worries me that someone in the UK can be so utterly ignorant when it comes to the Irish border and our history.

Ignorant people in the UK, surely not, they're British don't you know.

 

[The Outsider]

Looks like Spain might be approaching a crisis over funding it's pensions:

http://investmentwatchblog.com/will-spain-be-the-first-to-default-on-pensions/

 

[AshfordLad]

Does anyone here have a solution to the Irish border, everyone seems good at talking about it but there can only be a few solutions

open border
hard border
soft border

Current open border is fine. I really doubt any EU national even Bulgarians and Romanians (no disrespect meant to them) will be looking to work illegally in the UK. As long as the Irish are not a part of the Schengen it all works fine.

The only problem I could see potentially arising would be if some EU country decided to hand out their citizenship to the recent mass arrivals and they started coming to the UK via Ireland illegally. The chances of this are minute and given that there are more than 1.5 million illegals in the UK already, the problem would still be small.

 

[sullydnl]

I agree, will the eu agree? if they don't then they need to come up with a better solution.

The EU already agrees. In fact the principle that there shouldn't be a hard border is one of the few things everyone seems to agree on.

The question is how the UK plans to avoid creating one in its persuit of Brexit.

 

[Adebesi]

I really don't buy the argument that the UK would ever have come under pressure to join the eurozone. Maybe a bit of pressure, but never irresistible pressure. Never the kind of pressure that meant it might actually happen. It just wasn't on the cards, and the prospect of it was actually getting increasingly remote, if anything.

 

[Oscie]

Pretty much sums it up

 

[JPRouve]

I really don't buy the argument that the UK would ever have come under pressure to join the eurozone. Maybe a bit of pressure, but never irresistible pressure. Never the kind of pressure that meant it might actually happen. It just wasn't on the cards, and the prospect of it was actually getting increasingly remote, if anything.

It seems to be a very british fantasy. Do Swedish and Danish share that fear?

 

[Adebesi]

It seems to be a very british fantasy. Do Swedish and Danish share that fear?

The British certainly seem worried about it on their behalf, but I don't know what they themselves think. It's part of our Messiah Complex. We were protecting all the little countries from the monoculture juggernaut, but we couldn't have held on much longer. Once we're out nobody will be able to protect them, the EU will swiftly become the forth reich.