Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
I Believe said:
Surely a man with your apparent intellect does not class all Brexiteers like this, seriously? Two of the most rampant racists I've ever met are remainers!
This is a none argument and not worthy of you, one of the reasons we are were we are is because in the past whenever anyone mentioned some controls on immigration, they were immediately branded racist etc.



Yes they did, they made the mistake of wanting to do something to ease the post war burden on their children and they agreed with the USA something called the Marshall Plan, incidentally its only two or three years back when the last instalment was paid back to the USA on the that plan. After Fighting to free Europe (twice, with the aid of the USA) with the country on its knees with food and clothing and many other things on ration, on reflection it was probably their greatest mistake, coming to the aid of Europe, not only did it cost money, it cost lives, perhaps we should have stayed safe Paul, behind the Channel and just asked the USA to protect us with a ring of steel and to help keep the Atlantic sea lanes open and leave Europe to its fate?

Post war Britain was a grim place, I was a youngster growing up then, the Governments of the day made lots of mistakes, Labour and Tory, right up to Thatcher, our economy was a basket case, even after we joined the Common Market. Mrs T finally put an end to it, not the CM, she made war on the Unions, taking on the Miners, destroying homes, villages, and a whole way of life for lots of people. Maggie became top dog and ruled the roost, right through three General Elections and up to (yours and mine favourite) Tony Blair.

Prior to that, Harold Wilson had taken us into the Common Market with a two thirds majority in the first Europe referendum (the one on June 23rd last year was the second) and it had helped to set us on an even keel, but the desire of some member states to enlarge the CM and to turn it into the EEC, began, it became a 'Trojan Horse', designed to lead towards a single state. The 'gravy train' was really working full pelt by now and lots of people (yours truly amongst them) got suckered into believing the EU propaganda, even though on the ground, via some ludicrous EU projects, I and many others could see it was all 'smoke and mirrors'. At a crucial stage, Mrs T was 'blindsided' by Heseltine and Clarke in particular as far as Europe was concerned and completely took her eye off the ball when the Falklands War exploded. Under this distraction Maggie allowed Britain to signup to treaty after treat that led us to where we are now. At no time were the British public ever consulted directly about the direction of travel, until Brexit.

Cameron was an unlikely hero, because it was him, not Farage, who granted the referendum, of course he and much of our elite politicans had no idea whatsoever of the genie within the bottle, the rest as they say is history.
Click to expand...

I didn't say all Brexiters were racist or xenophobes but to pretend that this is not one of the major factors behind Brexit, then another lie comes out -apparently there are none at all.
The USA would have stayed out of the war if they could have but they were enticed in. The price of their help was much much more than the Marshall Plan, the USA become number 1 and the demise of the British empire was sealed, the rot having already set in after WW1.

The UK took time after they joined the EEC to get their house in order, it wouldn't happen overnight just like the demise forecast by withdrawing from the EU did not happen overnight , it will over time.

The genie escaped from the bottle and no doubt the Uk will spend many a year trying to put it back in again.
 
Stanley Road said:
That's irrelevant, its doing better than any other southern eu country because of it and lets face it, devilish was the first person to complain when the uk hinted at offering low corp tax after brexit.
Click to expand...

Did I?

I only said that

a- Malta is no tax haven. According to Oxfam there are at least 3 other countries (Cyprus, Holland and Belgium) who offer better corporate rates then we do.
b- There's a reason why only small countries become tax havens. Such model can sustain small economies, it certainly can't sustain something as massive as the UK.
c- Malta's thriving financial services business rely on the single market. The UK is leaving Europe.

Like any other EU country, Malta has to stay in line with EU rules else we lose access to the single market. The EU is quite strict regarding tax havens.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
then another lie comes out -apparently there are none at all.
Click to expand...

Where have you heard this?
In 17.4 m people, I can guarantee there will be racists, homophobes, gays, lesbians, people of colour, white supremacist, black supremacists, Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, even Liverpool and Man City supporters and you know what Paul, in the ranks of those voting remain there will also be all the above.

It a ludicrous argument and always has been and ranks up there with £350m for the NHS

Neither remainers' or leavers' have God on their side

Paul the Wolf said:
The USA would have stayed out of the war if they could have but they were enticed in
Click to expand...

Yes of course they would, but they demanded and got their pound of flesh. The end for Britain was the Suez crisis in the 50's when Anthony Eden sent troops to Eygpt try to secure the Canal from Colonel Nasser and the USA made him bring them home again, that was the end of Empire really, although we struggled on for years in the far flung corners, raising and lowering the flag each day.

The first prime British prime minister, (some would say the only PM to effectively tell the Americans to feck off) was Harold Wilson when he refused to get British troops involved in Vietnam. But then all of a sudden he mysteriously retired as PM and leader of the Labour party... were the CIA involved? Another conspiracy theory to chew on!
 
I Believe said:
Where have you heard this?
In 17.4 m people, I can guarantee there will be racists, homophobes, gays, lesbians, people of colour, white supremacist, black supremacists, Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, even Liverpool and Man City supporters and you know what Paul, in the ranks of those voting remain there will also be all the above.

It a ludicrous argument and always has been and ranks up there with £350m for the NHS

Neither remainers' or leavers' have God on their side



Yes of course they would, but they demanded and got their pound of flesh. The end for Britain was the Suez crisis in the 50's when Anthony Eden sent troops to Eygpt try to secure the Canal from Colonel Nasser and the USA made him bring them home again, that was the end of Empire really, although we struggled on for years in the far flung corners, raising and lowering the flag each day.

The first prime British prime minister, (some would say the only PM to effectively tell the Americans to feck off) was Harold Wilson when he refused to get British troops involved in Vietnam. But then all of a sudden he mysteriously retired as PM and leader of the Labour party... were the CIA involved? Another conspiracy theory to chew on!
Click to expand...

Do you know there is not one racist or xenophobe on here, not one, and they get very touchy when it is suggested
Next you're going to tell me Farage, your hero, is not a racist or a xenophobe. If he's your hero does that mean you only share some of his views.
I know brexiters are stupid but please don't try to think that the rest of us are too.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol....-No-blacks.-No-Irish-is-now-Ukip-policy.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ments-racism-sexism-immigration-a7118801.html

There are hundreds more examples . this person is a vile sorry excuse for a human being
 
I Believe said:
Where have you heard this?
In 17.4 m people, I can guarantee there will be racists, homophobes, gays, lesbians, people of colour, white supremacist, black supremacists, Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, even Liverpool and Man City supporters and you know what Paul, in the ranks of those voting remain there will also be all the above.

It a ludicrous argument and always has been and ranks up there with £350m for the NHS

Neither remainers' or leavers' have God on their side



Yes of course they would, but they demanded and got their pound of flesh. The end for Britain was the Suez crisis in the 50's when Anthony Eden sent troops to Eygpt try to secure the Canal from Colonel Nasser and the USA made him bring them home again, that was the end of Empire really, although we struggled on for years in the far flung corners, raising and lowering the flag each day.

The first prime British prime minister, (some would say the only PM to effectively tell the Americans to feck off) was Harold Wilson when he refused to get British troops involved in Vietnam. But then all of a sudden he mysteriously retired as PM and leader of the Labour party... were the CIA involved? Another conspiracy theory to chew on!
Click to expand...

Wilson stepped down several years after the Vietnam war had ended (in 1976).
 
Kentonio said:
Why? Both Greece and Italy have been a total mess politically and economically since at least the war. Blaming the EU for them seems like a stretch.
Click to expand...
The forced austerity on Greece after the crisis.

Mark Blyth has talked at length on this stuff



 
Kentonio said:
And not very long before joining the EU they were a military junta. Yes the EU forced austerity on Greece, but that was a reaction to Greece being a massive financial mess of its own creation.
Click to expand...
Er yeah that not really true but even if it was the reaction by the EU was never going to work, all it did was destroy people lives.
 
Sweet Square said:
In fairness I don't about the Italian political scene but the Greeks were taken part by the EU.
Click to expand...

As said, I have no idea about Greece although tbf I do remember a case were a particular Greek island caught the headlines for having a record number of 'blind' people on benefits. However I assure you, the Italian political scene is in shambles. They make the likes of Boris and Nigel look like Suleiman the Magnificent or Alexander the Great on steriods.

Also, I've never seen a country which is so anti business then Italy. Anything from setting up a business to employing people is submerged by redtape and nepotism. Not to forget that 'slight' problem in the South called Mafia/ndagreta which has a finger in every frigging pie
 
Last edited:
Sweet Square said:
Er yeah that not really true but even if it was the reaction by the EU was never going to work, all it did was destroy people lives.
Click to expand...

Well prior to the crisis, how did the EU ruin the Greek economy, and why was Greece in such a uniquely bad position that other countries were not?
 
Pexbo said:
He’s an absolute embarrassment. He’s appealing to his base. I’m certain companies like Cambridge Analytica are behind this current strawman demonisation approach to politics.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, the EU should refuse to negotiate any further until this guy is sacked.
 
devilish said:
I never said islands. I am saying small economies (countries or states)
Click to expand...

True. You can only afford to become a tax haven if by doing so, you are not losing a considerable amount of income. If you do and attract labour extensive businesses contributing to your tax income, you have won. Countries already already having a developed economy can’t afford to do the same.
 
The other thing about tax havens is that the WTO doesn't like them very much.

In fact its only 12 months ago Argentina won a landmark ruling that, despite WTO rules saying members cannot sanction each other, it was legal for them to sanction panama precisely because of the tax haven status.

But yes, lets have more brexit joined up thinking where the UK does whatever it wants with absolutely no consequences.

Feck me. become a tax haven we incite a trade war, and as we only produce half the food we need to keep ourselves alive, its one we will lose.
 
devilish said:
In my opinion, the EU should refuse to negotiate any further until this guy is sacked.
Click to expand...

I think this is just internal Conservative party politics and the price he has to pay to keep off the pack baying for his blood in what has been a well-organised campaign against him. Compared to Johnson, Fox, Gove and Davis, he is relatively sane.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I think this is just internal Conservative party politics and the price he has to pay to keep off the pack baying for his blood in what has been a well-organised campaign against him. Compared to Johnson, Fox, Gove and Davis, he is relatively sane.
Click to expand...

What’s the name of that gobshit crazy 1800‘s landlord again who seems so massively popular with the Tories?
 
MoskvaRed said:
I think this is just internal Conservative party politics and the price he has to pay to keep off the pack baying for his blood in what has been a well-organised campaign against him. Compared to Johnson, Fox, Gove and Davis, he is relatively sane.
Click to expand...

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Hammond really, but yeah, you're right.
 
devilish said:
My culture is somehow different to yours. We’re brought up in a society were criticism is not only common but it’s expected. People who love you will analyse you, they will find weaknesses in you (performance, character traits etc) and at least try and help you out by highlighting them up. That’s why I tend to go very tough in everything that I love (United, the UK etc). If you’re well versed in Italian culture you’ll understand that perfectly.

I share Guy verhofstadt’s idea of a reformed Europe although I don’t agree with his method of doing it. He believes that political parties across all Europe will put their own interest aside in the name of something bigger. I don't share his optimism on that.

In my opinion, we need a smaller and leaner EU with members having a similar economy, work ethic and aims. The UK is not the only one cherry picking in the EU and as Tusk once said some countries use the EU as a supermarket while shying away from the nasty parts.

Such reformed EU will be better faster to act in this changing world and easier to reform. Once the EU had reformed itself then by all means, the doors should open agian towards countries who are geniunely equipped to join the union as partners (ie rights and obligations) without the need of impacting too much other member states.

So while people like Guy are terrified of Grexit, Poleexit etc. I see such purge as a necessary step for the project
Click to expand...

I Completely understand your point...for a corporativism point of view. Just make a small point that the word Purge is quite disgusting when you are speaking of the lives of millions.

Said that and saying that I sort of understand your point of view, that is why I don't like EU more than for what it is a cold-hearted economic association

The hypocrisy of european values, and all united dancing in circles is BS, and that is why I would not like to be in this association. Is nice when everything goes alright and we are all european, Oh look the southern states, they are our friends now that we can sell them our most advance stuff and we can use their cheap labour and decent qualified (education paid with southern states taxes). We can go to their countries, buy a second residence for peanuts for our standards and raise the fecking housing market, party and puke everywhere and why not, retire there and drain the health care system (there are more British in Spain than the other way around). All happy happy

But when things goes south (pun intended), Oh but your are Greek, o but you are from the PIGS, etc... We don't want your cheap labour anymore now, your health care system is fecked up because you have 1 million pensioners from our countries? your problem, we were part of the problem that cause the price increase in your housing market making a bubble and it bursted and that shakened your economic system? your problem. And you know what? lets make a purge, we don't need you anymore. Oh, but european values all the way.
 
4bars said:
I Completely understand your point...for a corporativism point of view. Just make a small point that the word Purge is quite disgusting when you are speaking of the lives of millions.

Said that and saying that I sort of understand your point of view, that is why I don't like EU more than for what it is a cold-hearted economic association

The hypocrisy of european values, and all united dancing in circles is BS, and that is why I would not like to be in this association. Is nice when everything goes alright and we are all european, Oh look the southern states, they are our friends now that we can sell them our most advance stuff and we can use their cheap labour and decent qualified (education paid with southern states taxes). We can go to their countries, buy a second residence for peanuts for our standards and raise the fecking housing market, party and puke everywhere and why not, retire there and drain the health care system (there are more British in Spain than the other way around). All happy happy

But when things goes south (pun intended), Oh but your are Greek, o but you are from the PIGS, etc... We don't want your cheap labour anymore now, your health care system is fecked up because you have 1 million pensioners from our countries? your problem, we were part of the problem that cause the price increase in your housing market making a bubble and it bursted and that shakened your economic system? your problem. And you know what? lets make a purge, we don't need you anymore. Oh, but european values all the way.
Click to expand...

I am the most southern European that can come. Greece, Italy and co are all North from my country's perspective :)

Also i apologise for my choice of words. English is not my first language. All i am saying is that the EU grew too big and too soon. It lacks the infrastructure (and teeth) to cater for such diverse economies and needs radical reform

A leaner EU will allow the group to reform and regroup. It will also allow countries such Greece to do the necessary changes to their economy outside the eurozone and the EU rules. In time the EU might allow others to join but only those whose economy allows them to be an equal partner rather then a burden. The alternative to that would be more integration. Im not sure these countries are ready for that

I also think that its unfair to pin the incompetence of some of the Southern European nations on the EU.
 
When you should be building bridges. This is all pointing to a hard Brexit.
 
devilish said:
I am the most southern European that can come. Greece, Italy and co are all North from my country's perspective :)

Also i apologise for my choice of words. English is not my first language. All i am saying is that the EU grew too big and too soon. It lacks the infrastructure (and teeth) to cater for such diverse economies and needs radical reform

A leaner EU will allow the group to reform and regroup. It will also allow countries such Greece to do the necessary changes to their economy outside the eurozone and the EU rules. In time the EU might allow others to join but only those whose economy allows them to be an equal partner rather then a burden. The alternative to that would be more integration. Im not sure these countries are ready for that

I also think that its unfair to pin the incompetence of some of the Southern European nations on the EU.
Click to expand...

It will even out over time anyway, thats the whole point of the EU project. All that investment and free movement with eastern and southern Europe will inevitably lead to a much more level playing field, we just need the patience and courage to see out the process.
 
devilish said:
I am the most southern European that can come. Greece, Italy and co are all North from my country's perspective :)

Also i apologise for my choice of words. English is not my first language. All i am saying is that the EU grew too big and too soon. It lacks the infrastructure (and teeth) to cater for such diverse economies and needs radical reform

A leaner EU will allow the group to reform and regroup. It will also allow countries such Greece to do the necessary changes to their economy outside the eurozone and the EU rules. In time the EU might allow others to join but only those whose economy allows them to be an equal partner rather then a burden. The alternative to that would be more integration. Im not sure these countries are ready for that

I also think that its unfair to pin the incompetence of some of the Southern European nations on the EU.
Click to expand...

Southern states is just an example, you had Ireland at the time or eastern europeans. Anyaway

More than incompetence is corruption of the government, Do not forget that we are talking about people that are paying for corruption (as Italy and Spain), they are responsible? yes, till a certain point, but at the moment of the truth, the estates and europe ran to bail out the companies and banks but feck the people. Most of the Greek debt is was from Germany that the knew what they were doing, and they forced them to austerity, and a 1rst Rescue that crippled more the economy and humiliate them, a 2nd rescue deepened the problem and the third they even trampled a referendum voted of +60%. That is what europe is. Lets save our friends and feck the people. Iceland let the banks fall, pursue bankers and PM and they recovered quicker than any other else. Yes, I know economies are not comparable, but in terms of morality is appalling what they did to the greeks (not Greek government). But hey, before the crisis, lets all enjoy Mikonos, cheap labour and they can eat immigration coming from Turkey and middle east.

We soon forget that we are talking about people with the good things and bad things. And don't get me wrong, we do the same with the rest of the world when we buy cheap clothing manufacturing, or Iphones etc... But if you associate with one country, when things goes wrong, man up and do your share, but is easy to see only macroeconomic indicators, but not that easy to count all the effects of mass tourism that brings income to the country, but it wrecks the ecosystems, put in stress the services of the country and kicks out local people of the centers of the city towns destroying the proper life tissue of the cities, making the life cost way higher than the wages and making families not capable to consum and develope the capitalist local commerces and industry.

The thing is that northern europe had been using cheap labour, from the south, increased the cost of living and stressed the public services in the main cities and used them as their playground. But now that it does not go well, chuck them away. Very nice

Not speaking the shameful dealing of the refugee crisis.
 
Kentonio said:
It will even out over time anyway, thats the whole point of the EU project. All that investment and free movement with eastern and southern Europe will inevitably lead to a much more level playing field, we just need the patience and courage to see out the process.
Click to expand...
When all the skilled and multilingual people have left the south to live in the richer north and west, there will be nothing left down south but the dregs if society, that fom for you.
 
4bars said:
Southern states is just an example, you had Ireland at the time or eastern europeans. Anyaway

More than incompetence is corruption of the government, Do not forget that we are talking about people that are paying for corruption (as Italy and Spain), they are responsible? yes, till a certain point, but at the moment of the truth, the estates and europe ran to bail out the companies and banks but feck the people. Most of the Greek debt is was from Germany that the knew what they were doing, and they forced them to austerity, and a 1rst Rescue that crippled more the economy and humiliate them, a 2nd rescue deepened the problem and the third they even trampled a referendum voted of +60%. That is what europe is. Lets save our friends and feck the people. Iceland let the banks fall, pursue bankers and PM and they recovered quicker than any other else. Yes, I know economies are not comparable, but in terms of morality is appalling what they did to the greeks (not Greek government). But hey, before the crisis, lets all enjoy Mikonos, cheap labour and they can eat immigration coming from Turkey and middle east.

We soon forget that we are talking about people with the good things and bad things. And don't get me wrong, we do the same with the rest of the world when we buy cheap clothing manufacturing, or Iphones etc... But if you associate with one country, when things goes wrong, man up and do your share, but is easy to see only macroeconomic indicators, but not that easy to count all the effects of mass tourism that brings income to the country, but it wrecks the ecosystems, put in stress the services of the country and kicks out local people of the centers of the city towns destroying the proper life tissue of the cities, making the life cost way higher than the wages and making families not capable to consum and develope the capitalist local commerces and industry.

The thing is that northern europe had been using cheap labour, from the south, increased the cost of living and stressed the public services in the main cities and used them as their playground. But now that it does not go well, chuck them away. Very nice

Not speaking the shameful dealing of the refugee crisis.
Click to expand...

In my opinion this victim's attitude is why Southern Europe is in shambles.

A- This 'hatred' against the wealthier part of Europe doesn't even make sense. Their taxpayer's money is what transformed Eastern Europe's economy. FOM is allowing thousands of Italian young people with a job and is exactly what is keeping Greece afloat. Sure, things could have been done better. There again, Greece should have lived within its means which would have meant that it wouldn't need bailouts, Italy should have appointed decent politicians and finally killed off decades (if not centuries old) problems such as the mafia, the rampant racism between North-South etc and most of these countries should have stirred away from poisonous ideologies like fascism.

B- While solidarity is important within a union, the wealthier part of Europe doesn't owe these countries a living. Its up to them to sort their shit up. I don't know what's going on in Greece but I am perfectly aware what is going on in Italy, a country were corruption and organised crime is not only widespread but its fully embraced, not just by the politicians but also by the general public.

I agree that alot more could be done regarding immigration. Both Italy and Malta suffer from that same problem so we can understand the situation perfectly. However let me remind you that when mandatory burden sharing was introduced it was not Northern Europe who complained about it but the East. That stinks of hypocrisy considering that these same countries do not mind taking millions of euros in aid from the Western Europe's taxpayer and do not mind sending thousands of their own people to work there. There's over 2m Polish citizen in Germany alone and yet, their government still bitch about taking a measly few thousand desperate people from either Greece or Italy.

I think Southern Europe should stop blaming others for being in shambles and start working their way out of the big hole they dig themselves into. Ironically that can only occur once they cut their umbilical cord from those financing them and learn how to live within their means. That might sound harsh but it isn't. Independence had worked great in my own country as locals realised that they there's no choice but to live within their means. In fact Malta was prosperous long before it became an EU member. I've been to Sicily in numerous occasions and if I got a penny every time I heard that they dont mind doing this or that bad thing simply because Rome or Brussels is paying, Id be a millionaire by now.
 
devilish said:
In my opinion this victim's attitude is why Southern Europe is in shambles.

A- This 'hatred' against the wealthier part of Europe doesn't even make sense. Their taxpayer's money is what transformed Eastern Europe's economy. FOM is allowing thousands of Italian young people with a job and is exactly what is keeping Greece afloat. Sure, things could have been done better. There again, Greece should have lived within its means which would have meant that it wouldn't need bailouts, Italy should have appointed decent politicians and finally killed off decades (if not centuries old) problems such as the mafia, the rampant racism between North-South etc and most of these countries should have stirred away from poisonous ideologies like fascism.

B- While solidarity is important within a union, the wealthier part of Europe doesn't owe these countries a living. Its up to them to sort their shit up. I don't know what's going on in Greece but I am perfectly aware what is going on in Italy, a country were corruption and organised crime is not only widespread but its fully embraced, not just by the politicians but also by the general public.

I agree that alot more could be done regarding immigration. Both Italy and Malta suffer from that same problem so we can understand the situation perfectly. However let me remind you that when mandatory burden sharing was introduced it was not Northern Europe who complained about it but the East. That stinks of hypocrisy considering that these same countries do not mind taking millions of euros in aid from the Western Europe's taxpayer and do not mind sending thousands of their own people to work there. There's over 2m Polish citizen in Germany alone and yet, their government still bitch about taking a measly few thousand desperate people from either Greece or Italy.

I think Southern Europe should stop blaming others for being in shambles and start working their way out of the big hole they dig themselves into. Ironically that can only occur once they cut their umbilical cord from those financing them and learn how to live within their means. That might sound harsh but it isn't. Independence had worked great in my own country as locals realised that they there's no choice but to live within their means. In fact Malta was prosperous long before it became an EU member. I've been to Sicily in numerous occasions and if I got a penny every time I heard that they dont mind doing this or that bad thing simply because Rome or Brussels is paying, Id be a millionaire by now.
Click to expand...

Is not hatred, believe me, is accountability. 50% of our salaries goes just with rent, and I mean families. Here in Canada, me alone and having a medium lower income it would be 1/3 (or even 1/4 when I fancy do a extra part time), I could buy a car and have my leissure. What is not normal is that in Barcelona, we pay the same rate than a top city in europe (and more than Berlin) and the minimum salary is half than France. Wealthy people (and I consider myself a priviledge ) tend to forget that they are not making a favour contracting foreign people, this people costed hundreds of thousands (individually) to educate and they are paying taxes since the very first.

When I see people coming to a less better off country (and I repeat, I feel priviledged because even if middle class, I had all the opportunities that I wanted) like they are making them a favour I feel like that they are like that dumb guy that throw garbage on the street and says "oh I am creating jobs for garbagemen". No, is not victimism is accountability. Pay for something it does not allow you to think that there are no consequences.

Ironically I am coming from a wealthy region from Spain, we are above average in several economical aspects like GDP per capita, where we bailed up Spain for years, and I have that opinion. And I never claimed that we southern countries don't have to sort their shit out, they definitely do, but the northern/western countries have to accept their part of responsibility that is not small. You can't say "Oh, what an example Germany or France or whoever is when things go wrong, but oh how shit are the PIGS when things go wrong.

And the main points that I am trying to make, maybe because I did not explain myself clear:

- Southern countries have to sort their shit out: YES
- Northern countries have to be accountable of their actions towards south: YES

MAIN POINT: All together when things goes great but kick some of them when the things go wrong is disgusting. And if you want to do that, just don't be an hypocrite, and say that business is business and we don't care about the people and stop boasting about EU morals.
 
Last edited:
4bars said:
People keep returning to Spain, the standard of living (not economically speaking) is far superior there if you have a job. So no, we value family, good weather, and good food


Is not hatred, believe me, is accountability. 50% of our salaries goes just with rent, and I mean families. Here in Canada, me alone and having a medium lower income it would be 1/3 (or even 1/4 when I fancy do a extra part time), I could buy a car and have my leissure. What is not normal is that in Barcelona, we pay the same rate than a top city in europe (and more than Berlin) and the minimum salary is half than France. Wealthy people (and I consider myself a priviledge ) tend to forget that they are not making a favour contracting foreign people, this people costed hundreds of thousands (individually) to educate and they are paying taxes since the very first.

When I see people coming to a less better off country (and I repeat, I feel priviledged because even if middle class, I had all the opportunities that I wanted) like they are making them a favour I feel like that they are like that dumb guy that throw garbage on the street and says "oh I am creating jobs for garbagemen". No, is not victimism is accountability. Pay for something it does not allow you to think that there are no consequences.

Ironically I am coming from a wealthy region from Spain, we are above average in several economical aspects like GDP per capita, where we bailed up Spain for years, and I have that opinion. And I never claimed that we southern countries don't have to sort their shit out, they definitely do, but the northern/western countries have to accept their part of responsibility that is not small. You can't say "Oh, what an example Germany or France or whoever is when things go wrong, but oh how shit are the PIGS when things go wrong.

And the main points that I am trying to make, maybe because I did not explain myself clear:

- Southern countries have to sort their shit out: YES
- Northern countries have to be accountable of their actions towards south: YES

MAIN POINT: All together when things goes great but kick some of them when the things go wrong is disgusting. And if you want to do that, just don't be an hypocrite, and say that business is business and we don't care about the people and stop boasting about EU morals.
Click to expand...


Rent is high everywhere. I know, I live in London and we pretty have the same ratio in terms of rent. I agree that things within the EU could have been done better. But be honest on this. Don't you think that most Southern European countries would still be in this sort of shit irrespective on whether the EU exist or not? I am 100% sure that Italy (especially the South) would be. I dare to say it would be far worse then they are now.
 
Last edited:
devilish said:
Rent is high everywhere. I know, I live in the UK and we pretty have the same ratio in terms of rent. I agree that things within the EU could have been done better. But be honest on this. Don't you think that most Southern European countries would still be in this sort of shit irrespective on whether the EU exist or not? I am 100% sure that Italy (especially the South) would be. I dare to say it would be far worse then it is now.
Click to expand...

Depends on which economic deals they would be able to struck. I repeat for...I do not know how many times? I do not discuss the EU as economic entity. Maybe because I lean to socialism, but I believe that is not all capitalism. Is not all about cost/benefit. And if I want a European project, it has to be according to my believes. So then, I repeat once more: When the things goes alright is easy to stick together. Kick them out when things are not ok, It goes against the standards of what I expect from Europe (And the standards that they want to sell)
 
4bars said:
Depends on which economic deals they would be able to struck. I repeat for...I do not know how many times? I do not discuss the EU as economic entity. Maybe because I lean to socialism, but I believe that is not all capitalism. Is not all about cost/benefit. And if I want a European project, it has to be according to my believes. So then, I repeat once more: When the things goes alright is easy to stick together. Kick them out when things are not ok, It goes against the standards of what I expect from Europe (And the standards that they want to sell)
Click to expand...


But that's the thing. What happens if there are countries in the EU who only care about their own welfare and can't care less about showing solidarity to others (like for example Poland or Hungary do in terms of immigration)? What happens if some regions (as Sicily) has a big chip on its shoulder and therefore see any form of central government as a way of getting as many cash as possible without any care of reforming oneself? We're talking here about ancient problems some of which predates the very idea of having some form of unified Europe. Sicily has been hostile to any form of central government ever since it was duped into joining a unified Italy. Do you know what they call organized crime there? Cosa Nostra ie our thing. Do you know why? Because its a government within a government ie their own government. Good luck convincing them to change their ways.

The EU as it is won't survive for long under such state. Unless reformed the wealthy countries will get tired of throwing money in endless wells and those whose morals aren't in line with those of mainstream Europe will leave once they can afford it. So we've got 3 choices

a- we dismantle this whole project up
b- we go for further integration which will strengthen the EU structure, making it fairer and more efficient but will piss off those who are against such move
c- we embrace that the one fits all system doesn't really work and we start considering alternatives to EU membership. Under such scenario Greece can default, Poland can refuse immigrants etc. There again, different packages also come with different rights and responsibilities. For example should countries who refuse immigrants simply because they are Muslims still enjoy the many benefits unrestricted FOM bring? Should countries who can't manage their own money be allowed to tap in EU funds? etc
 
Last edited:
devilish said:
But that's the thing. What happens if there are countries in the EU who only care about their own welfare and can't care less about showing solidarity to others (like for example Poland or Hungary do in terms of immigration)? What happens if some regions (as Sicily) has a big chip on its shoulder and therefore see any form of central government as a way of getting as many cash as possible without any care of reforming oneself? We're talking here about ancient problems some of which predates the very idea of having some form of unified Europe. Sicily has been hostile to any form of central government ever since it was duped into joining a unified Italy. Do you know what they call organized crime there? Cosa Nostra ie our thing. Do you know why? Because its a government within a government ie their own government. Good luck convincing them to change their ways.

The EU as it is won't survive for long under such state. Sooner or later those who are paying will get tired paying for others and those whose morals aren't in line with those of mainstream Europe will leave once they can afford it. So we've got 3 choices

a- we dismantle this whole project up
b- we go for further integration which will strengthen the EU structure, making it fairer and more efficient but will piss off those who are against such move
c- we embrace that the one fits all system doesn't really work and we start giving up different packages with different duties and responsibilities. In that case Greece would be able to default, Poland can refuse immigrants etc. Of course it will also come with a reduction of rights too. For example is it fair to allow countries who refuse to show solidarity towards immigrants unrestricted FOM to their own people? Should countries like Greece ever be trusted with EU taxpayer's money unless of course they seriously change their ways?
Click to expand...

In my opinion, if we reached the crisis is not because people missbehaved (they did, but not the main cause) but because governments allowed private companies to take advantage of the system. In Spain, we rescued the banks for 50 billion. Saying that they will recover till the last penny. Last month, they said that they will not recover more than 40 billion...And all this time the banks had revenue!! they sunk the economy because they were not investing the money that the Central Bank lend them, using it to protect themselves. And meanwhile people could be kicked out of their homes for the same banks So we converted private debt in public debt. And not only the banks

If you go against the private companies, they will flee your country, I agree. But if it is the WHOLE Europe, where they will go? In the whole crisis, the richer got richer, the big companies didn't stop having revenue and the middle class destroyed and it had been more and more diusparity. How is possible that in a crisis, the superrich and rich increased faster than anytime? why they are allowed this to happen?

If Europe want to be a solid project according their boasted values, it does not matter on further integration or decentralization. Both models works, you can see it in France and Germany (Though I am a big fan of decentralization). What it needs to be is unify criteria to avoid transfers of companies (fiscal unity for example) and transparency and accountability. But this will never happen because governments eat at the same table than them. It was not a problem of Countries, it was a problem of governments and private sectors. And this private sectors were not greek or spanish, etc...were european, backed up by european governments. As I said, Germany was harsh with Greece,m because lot of its debt came from Germany banks. And guess what? they protected german companies over Greek people, and if you pretend to be european, we all are.

And I finish with. Of course countries should not do whatever they want, that is why there are rules to follow with a certain flexibility, if a country blatantly refuse to follow them because they don't want (not because they can't), it should be considered to kick them out, specially related with human rights. And one example is about Poland and Hungary as you said, but again will continue with the hypocrisy of the EU, allegedly funding mercenaries in Lybia to patrol the coast sinking refugees boats or forcing them to go back and closing them in private 3rd world prisons mixt gender where women are raped daily like animals. And yes, I repeat, funded by the EU. Like EU funding Trukey for Syrian refugees.


I want a EU of values and integrity towards that, not only the economic sense, only with that we would survive, if not we would become just an Elite of countries leaving people (not countries) behind
 
You must log in or register to reply here.