You can keep telling lies if it makes you happy - these are UK government figures
1995 it was £4.017bn as opposed to 8.616 bn last year - doubled in 21 years
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You can keep telling lies if it makes you happy - these are UK government figures
1995 it was £4.017bn as opposed to 8.616 bn last year - doubled in 21 years
Will you donate €100 to the Paul the Wolf special anti-brexit fund as you're so selfless.
Twice tonight with I Believe voting for Brexit just for the benefit of our youngsters.
What amazing kind, generous and selfless people everyone is
Courtesy of those racist Eurosceptics at the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/britain-eu-contribution-rise-quadruple-cameron
The continent was suffering through years of austerity but Brussels never acted in kind. Says a lot about the character of institution and the folks at the top there. We see it even with these so-called negotiations: Barnier's brief would seem to put the bullion before all else.
It would be nice if Labour could defend the interests of UK taxpayers on this one issue, however the point scoring comes first.
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Doubling in 21 years... What's that about 3% per year...
Even going by rpi I think you would have around an 80% increase so to be truthful whilst it's Doubled makes it sound bad over that time period accounting for inflation it seems not that much... Especially if you factored exchange rates etc
http://www.swanlowpark.co.uk/retail-price-index.jsp
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/rule72.htm
Many keep mentioning how 'mean Brussels' had mistreated the South European countries. Yet my country is the most Southern of all European countries and our economy had prospered.
I strongly believe that we should analyse the government's of individual states before criticising Brussels. I am not well versed about the 'statesmen' who governed Greece and Spain but I know a thing or two about the politicians in Italy. Just to make a quick list you had the pro mafia sympathiser Andreotti, the whoremonger Berlusconi (whose wealth came from thin wind), Renzi who backstabbed his precedessor Letta and who can't even string two sentences in English not to forget the former Communist leader Giorgio Napoletano who overstepped over his democratic rights as President to become a sort of king-maker in total desregard of democracy. Next election it will be fought between the whoremonger, an anti-immigration leader with zero tertiary education who believed that any non Northern Italy region is a burden, the backstabber with zero knowledge about the English language and a professional comedian.
Italy is a broken country working with a broken system were no one can really govern and were corruption is so rife that its almost impossible to become a medical consultant (what the italian call primario) without entering politics. Its an inefficient country sitting on a mountain of debt built through decades of incompetence and corruption. I spoke with loads of economists both in Italy and beyond and I assure you the Euro didn't ruin Italy it saved them. If it wasn't the Euro the Italian economy would have suffered a meltdown at least a decade ago.
This gives a good insight of the situation from the German perspective. It seems that the UK is not as important as Brexiters think
I'm not sure you're selling the idea of political and financial union with such countries very well this morning devilish.
The EU may work for some, it doesn't for others, at present it is incapable of serious reform from within because that will upset the 'gravy-train', that's why its flawed, that's why ultimately it will fail. The US (even under Trump) has a better chance of restraining China, than the EU does in the future. Britain has a better chance of dealing with China on its own, in the future, than within a monolithic organisation. I would say the one hope for the EU is that Britain leaving will spur Germany and France to take charge of the EU cut through the bickering and drive it forward towards full integration, full steam ahead, consolidate the euro zone, those countries still outside it either join or sit on the back steps, no stops, no u turns, no more treaty's, just go for it! however if it doesn't do it soon, it will have no hope of catching China
I take your point about future generations, however that's inevitable, our grandfathers etc. did what they thought was right and there would be many saying something different at that time, somethings worked, others didn't, there will always be an element of the "the sins of the fathers being visited on the sons", we can only do what we think is right. Essentially most remainers saw Brexit in purely economic terms, most leavers in differing forms of political solutions.
One of the things that convinced me to vote leave was if you live in a large metropolitan area/city in Britain, there is a 'remainer' instinct, our large cities are becoming almost like the medieval castles of old, inside them you have a relative degree of prosperity, outside them you are almost in a wasteland. Wander down any high street in a small to medium size town and look at what has happened to it, shops closed, business gone under, or given in to the out of town malls. OK you will say that's progress, nothing to do with the EU, but if you live in one of these towns, it sure don't feel like it and the EU hasn't done much to alleviate the problems. Even when EU monies (which are our own to start with) come back in Project Form, most are 'window dressing' at best, forlorn attempts at covering the economic scars, giving temporary assistance at best, keeping people like me (for a time anyway) employed in managing the projects, but in truth, whilst achieving the objectives (otherwise you didn't get the money) but making little difference. The most important project that I felt really did have an impact was the first one I worked on in the North West of England, it was designed to help businesses get familiar with IT, web site development, training for company staff, even some PC hardware given 'free'. That did make a difference, because it was the right project at the right time, in the right place, it was not just chasing a 'pot' of EU money, which unfortunately that's what many projects become, they call it inward investment! apart from the that one project, I'd call inward waste.
I suppose we all relate to our own experiences, if your experience of the EU is positive then of course you want to remain within it, since you are already there, so to speak, then you need not worry about the rest of us... and I'm not accusing you of being selfish!
My culture is somehow different to yours. We’re brought up in a society were criticism is not only common but it’s expected. People who love you will analyse you, they will find weaknesses in you (performance, character traits etc) and at least try and help you out by highlighting them up. That’s why I tend to go very tough in everything that I love (United, the UK etc). If you’re well versed in Italian culture you’ll understand that perfectly.I'm not sure you're selling the idea of political and financial union with such countries very well this morning devilish.
I share Guy verhofstadt’s idea of a reformed Europe although I don’t agree with his method of doing it. He believes that political parties across all Europe will put their own interest aside in the name of something bigger. I don't share his optimism on that.
In my opinion, we need a smaller and leaner EU with members having a similar economy, work ethic and aims. The UK is not the only one cherry picking in the EU and as Tusk once said some countries use the EU as a supermarket while shying away from the nasty parts.
Such reformed EU will be better faster to act in this changing world and easier to reform. Once the EU had reformed itself then by all means, the doors should open agian towards countries who are geniunely equipped to join the union as partners (ie rights and obligations) without the need of impacting too much other member states.
So while people like Guy are terrified of Grexit, Poleexit etc. I see such purge as a necessary step for the project
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I think this is one of the more frustrating arguments for me about Brexit.
Many places across the country have not benefitted from the boom of the last 30 years (and obviously, the people living there may not have either). We are a country that is heavily focused on the South East and especially our behemoth, Alpha ++ city, London, which sucks the life out of many parts of the UK. No other major industrialised country in the West of Europe or North American etc seems to have a city with such a stranglehold on the economy.
What I am struggling to understand is how this is the EU's fault? Despite hysteria and hyperbole about Frau Merkel, Brussels, the German-French axis, yada yada, our government is in charge of our economy. We can decide to try to redistribute the wealth to other parts of the country. We can implement infrastructure projects or try to attract business to Sheffield, Manchester, Newcastle etc. Yet so much of our priority seems to be London and the EU. Hell, it seems our vaunted politicians are struggling to even comprehend the idea of moving out of parliament to another city for a few years to save money and time while renovating the palaces of westminster.
Our national stadium is in London. We now play semi finals in that London stadium.
That is all us. Nobody forces us to do that.
Do you think that leaving the EU will suddenly cause a seismic shift in our politicians' thinking and get them to develop the rest of the UK?
Ireland certainly does!
But I agree with your sentiment. We're massively reliant on Dublin for our $$$ here, so much so that it's only one of two counties (out of 26) that actually makes our Government money, and it's all our own doing, not the EU at all. Dublin has long been the centerpiece to all our transport & infrastructure upgrades, national stadiums/museums/whatever and we are now incredibly reliant on it and it's inflated and threadbare housing market for our economy. The idea that the EU could somehow be responsible for it (in our case, and I'm sure in the UK's too) is quite laughable.
Also, surely Paris is a bit like London, too? It accounts for 25% of France's GDP or something bonkers. Then you've Eastern cities like Prague and Budapest which are similarly important to their countries. I don't think the UK and London is a "unique" situation, I just think it's the biggest example of an alpha city swallowing its countries economy in the western world, but there are quite a lot!
Good post. There is definitely a problem in the UK (although much of it is part of a broader trend of urbanisation and, in the West, deindustrialisation). Unfortunately, not only have Leave voters identified the wrong culprit, they also risk exacerbating the problem if Brexit results in a rupture with the big market on our doorstep.
Yep, and the response is:
feck it, lets leave a body that has funded work in those ignored area and put all out trust in a government that's actually responsible for this situation in the first place.
It's so, so odd.
There is actually one city that seems to have the same stranglehold, Paris. In a very simplistic way, I would say that it's because the two cities are disproportionnally powerful when you look at the countries they represent and there is a clear London/Paris centrism among British and French politicians.
Technically the world's biggest primate city is none of those, it's Bangkok, which has over 40 times the population of Thailand's next biggest city!
Not overly relevant, but quite funny.
Not overly relevant, but quite funny.
Ah, you guys are right actually, I hadn't thought of Paris and Dublin for some reason (Well actually, I hadn't considered that Paris was as important the economy of France). I think I was slightly waylaid by what I'd consider doing on holiday. I enjoyed Montpellier for example as much as I ever have Paris but that obviously says very little how powerful economically both of those cities are. Partly also as London and New York are, I think, the only two Alpha ++ cities.
I think @MoskvaRed touches on a point that I was thinking about as well. Which is that the West (tbh the world as a whole) is urbanising and that populations and money are concentrating around these big urban centres. That is the unfortunate reality in which we now have to live.
Can Liverpool become a major world port again? Sheffield a centre of steel and industry? I don't know but I doubt it. And I don't think Brexit is going to do those things.
"Evil EU didn't completely change the wealth distribution of my country."
Indeed. The EU isn't there to dictate how we should manage our economy and where we should redistribute money. People seem to have voted for a change in their circumstances thinking that anything would be better than what they have now (well, some people anyway). That is objectively incorrect.
And as you say, we risk exacerbating this by breaking completely with this rather convenient, massive market on our doorstep.
At least once we're out, we won't have such a convenient scapegoat. Right?
This is a three year old article you're quoting
Here is the government's figures from 4 days ago
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7886/CBP-7886.pdf
If you notice the estimate for 2017 is even lower at £7.90bn
A long way from the £350million a week.
Although we've all been through this dozens of times and proved that the UK will save nothing from leaving , Brexiters continue to ignore it . Just setting up the new customs, employing and training thousands of new staff , building new facilities, lorry parks and will alone more than wipe out any savings and that's before we come to the losses on exrate now and in the future, tariffs , delays , the list is endless
The Uk will have to pay what they've committed to in the budgets and the subs that are due during the remaining time they stay in the EU, nothing more and nothing less, it's not bullying just simple accountancy.
Please remember I'm not a Labour supporter , I'm a capitalist and ex-Tory voter who will always look after their own interest first and ensure I'm in control of what happens and relies on no-one to look after me. Those that pretend they are acting selflessly are liars in 99% of cases, and you may notice I don't like liars. Ergo Brexit, which is a tale of lies and every time one is found out, another lie is invented and so we go on.
As you've been absent for a while on here I would like to ask you what your solution would be for the Irish Border, this has to be solved if the UK leaves . Otherwise talks will advance no further until a solution is found
Indeed. The EU isn't there to dictate how we should manage our economy and where we should redistribute money. People seem to have voted for a change in their circumstances thinking that anything would be better than what they have now (well, some people anyway). That is objectively incorrect.
And as you say, we risk exacerbating this by breaking completely with this rather convenient, massive market on our doorstep.
At least once we're out, we won't have such a convenient scapegoat. Right?
Just look at the brexiteers in this thread. They will keep blaming the EU because the evil EU didn’t give in to every single UK demand. If they had done this, if all went according to little Theresa’s plan, it would have been brilliant!
That's interesting because brexiters seem to think that France is a hellhole, Montpellier for example is pretty sweet despite the fact that it's not even close to be functioning effectively, the city is dynamic but the demographic growth is way too big for the job market. Ideally the government should try to find a way to push big companies in the south but they are probably too busy doing nothing in Paris.
One of the experiences I mentioned regarding China involved the UK, the USA and the EU. The UK and USA committed the same error and both suffered, the EU stepped in and the USA realised their mistake and corrected it, unfortunately the Uk suffered more because they committed an illegal error and tried to hide it from the EU. This was long before Trump, the Uk will get no help from the USA.
I don't believe Remainers saw it in economic terms, it's just an easy thing to prove that Brexit is wrong in that sense.
Remainers , certainly from what I see and in my personal outlook is the despicable racism, hatred and xenophobia. You see you can't argue this point with a Brexiter because not one of them admits to being racist or xenophobic, amazing really . Of course they make a few insinuations that they're stealing all the jobs, there are loads of criminals, refugees, dole scroungers etc etc. Another amazing stat that no white Englishman has ever committed a crime or scrounged off the dole.
Then we have the control of the borders - which was very easily proven was another lie, yes there is an open border in Ireland but they want that to stay the same, so nothing changes at all there. Then we have sovereignty , as soon as that looked as if it wasn't going Brexiters way, that went out the window as well.
If you want to look at what our fathers did, the time from WW2 till the 70s was a disaster for the UK, they were completely under the influence of the USA and used as a puppet, they made mistake after mistake and sunk from being the World no.1 to a country scrounging around for loans to survive and people seem to want to go back to that. Then the war itself is brought up, we didn't fight the war to be run by Germany. The Uk are heading in the same direction the evil they were supposed to be fighting.
Metropolitan vs countryside - this is nothing new, over 200 years old. My grandfather left the fields of Hampshire to find work in London over 100 years ago. No it's not the EU,the government have to take responsibility which they won't and that is one of the main reasons for Brexit because they've shirked it and blame guess who , it's the British way, always blame someone else.
I am selfish, I look after myself but I don't expect anyone to look after me. I despised the namby-pamby nanny state of Blair.
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I live in what can be classed as a rural area and the state of our towns is nothing to do with the EU. Try horrendously underfunded public transport, poor education and job prospects for young people, overpriced housing being swallowed up by buy-to-letters, councils being shut down or merged, hospitals being closed. The death of the high street is down to the rise of everyone's favourite tax-avoiders Amazon.
Most local leisure centres etc are funded by EU redevelopment money - without a hope of being replaced by the government. A friend of mine works in a factory where 90% of the labour is Polish - and guess what, the only issues they have with attendance, discipline, quality control etc all stem from English agency workers. Go to the doctor or Hospital and almost every doctor and nurse is from abroad.
Yes there is a problem in the UK. But it isn't caused by the EU. It's just a convenient scapegoat - the only benefit of Brexit is that we'll be able to see who's really running the country outside of London into the ground.
Most local leisure centres etc are funded by EU redevelopment money - without a hope of being replaced by the government. A friend of mine works in a factory where 90% of the labour is Polish - and guess what, the only issues they have with attendance, discipline, quality control etc all stem from English agency workers. Go to the doctor or Hospital and almost every doctor and nurse is from abroad.
Yes there is a problem in the UK. But it isn't caused by the EU. It's just a convenient scapegoat - the only benefit of Brexit is that we'll be able to see who's really running the country outside of London into the ground.
One of the fundamental thruths of capitalism is that business concentrates. That's got nothing to do with the EU and it's a phenomenon all around Europe.
Capitalism, at it's core and over time, weeds out innefficiencies. And some regions just aren't attractive enough, businesses there thus aren't as efficient as they could be, thus, they leave.
How can you look at this and think: "yeah, let's leave the EU, that'll solve it!"?
Especially when the EU is one of the few bodies actually trying to lessen the effects that in Europe.
Capitalism, at it's core and over time, weeds out innefficiencies. And some regions just aren't attractive enough, businesses there thus aren't as efficient as they could be, thus, they leave.
How can you look at this and think: "yeah, let's leave the EU, that'll solve it!"?
Especially when the EU is one of the few bodies actually trying to lessen the effects that in Europe.
Yes cos its a tax haven. 5% corporation tax pfff. Wait till the uk becomes one and prospers in the same way, then you can sing its praises from the roof tops.
Problem is the UK can't afford to do this. That's also why there is no serious proposal to transform the UK into one.
There's a reason all the tax haven's in the world are small countries and it's not hard to spot.
if a country with 65.6m people and the budget the UK has somehow manages to become a tax haven then I'll eat my hat.
Cause it ain't happening.
A few years back I was waiting for a career job to come through, and did a month in a warehouse to bring in some extra cash. It was exactly like you describe here. The Polish (of all ages) just turned up and got on with the job, exactly the same with the 40-50+ year old English workers who were on permanent contracts, but the English agency workers were just ridiculous. Lads in their late teens, early twenties who were largely there because the job centre said they had to get a job. It was like watching a group of toddlers, they'd spend as much time as possible slacking off and talking shit, they were constantly fecking around causing damage with idiotic pranks and offending people by acting like cocks every time they had to interact with someone outside their little cliques. They'd inevitably get fired within a couple of weeks, or just not bother coming back after a few days. You'd hear them talking on lunchbreaks about how shit it was, and how they were only there because they were being forced to be.
Completely fecking pathetic. If the eastern Europeans have to go home (or choose to) then British factories and warehouses are fecked.
It's a fundamental those people don't understand.
The UK can become a tax heaven but Merkel will have to plan for a new vague of migrants.
Yes exactly that, there will be no EU to hide behind, they will have to face the voters every five years with no one to blame only ourselves!
Oh yes and with a much more self aware public, due entirely to Brexit!
That's irrelevant, its doing better than any other southern eu country because of it and lets face it, devilish was the first person to complain when the uk hinted at offering low corp tax after brexit.
"Several EU countries say such a system damages their budgets and reveals a weakness in the EU, which allows the 28 member states sovereign rights over their taxation.
According to a report commissioned by Green MEPs in the European Parliament, Malta helped multinationals avoid paying €14bn (£12bn;$15.6bn) in taxes between 2012 and 2015, which would have gone to other EU countries."
That is true to a degree. Only worked because they are in the EU and give access to the EU market though.
Also, he'S right about Italy and certainly Greece. The EU is not responsible for their failures.
Well according to Oxfam we offer the 4th best rates in corporate tax after Belgium, Holland and Cyprus. If we're a tax haven (which we aren't) then we're in good company.
Its down on the Maltese voting wisely while trying to keep the clowns as far away as possible from parliament. We've quite versed and involved into politics. Last GE we had a 92% turnout. There again, voters in Malta are encouraged to vote. In fact voting is done on weekends (which makes it easier for the working class to vote) and every vote count irrespective of region one lives in.
Our own version of UKIP (ie its leader is close friend to your Nigel) got a staggering 0.07% of votes while the anti immigration party got 0.34% of the votes.
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In isolation you are right without their tax system they would be in trouble but at the same time if you read between the lines that money is probably supposed to mainly go to France and Germany and truth be told neither country desperately need that money, in the case of France we waste way more than that.
It's pretty much the same here in Norway (though we are not in the EU on paper we might as well be). I work in a high school and we have this cooperation program with social services for students who have dropped out and the goal is too either have them finish school or get them into the workforce. One of my colleagues had one of these classes and he said it was super frustrating because what business would hire a 20 year old dropout with no experience when you could hire an experienced/educated pole.
On one hand we would be well and truly fecked without work immigration since we would have a severe lack of carpenters, plumbers etc, but on the other hand these workers makes it incredibly hard for these dropout kids to get a job. Another issue is that certain staffing firms and agencies severely underpays them and gives them contracts that don't remotely follow national tariffs/laws.
I wouldn't hire them unless I had absolutely zero choice. At a rough estimate, I'd say they were delivering a productivity level of about 20-30% in contrast to the Polish and older English workers, while fostering a toxic environment and hugely increasing the likelihood of unnecessary damages, staff injuries and product complaints.
I'm all in favour of developing programs that forces them into growing the feck up and learning how to act like an adult worker instead of a pampered child, but without that progression I can't see why it would be in any employer's interest to hire them at all, let alone offer them above minimum wage (I do take your point about unscrupulous employers offering illegal contracts, but to be honest if that happened in England the 'workers' would almost certainly report them or refuse to do the work).
Surely a man with your apparent intellect does not class all Brexiteers like this, seriously? Two of the most rampant racists I've ever met are remainers!
This is a none argument and not worthy of you, one of the reasons we are were we are is because in the past whenever anyone mentioned some controls on immigration, they were immediately branded racist etc.
Yes they did, they made the mistake of wanting to do something to ease the post war burden on their children and they agreed with the USA something called the Marshall Plan, incidentally its only two or three years back when the last instalment was paid back to the USA on the that plan. After Fighting to free Europe (twice, with the aid of the USA) with the country on its knees with food and clothing and many other things on ration, on reflection it was probably their greatest mistake, coming to the aid of Europe, not only did it cost money, it cost lives, perhaps we should have stayed safe Paul, behind the Channel and just asked the USA to protect us with a ring of steel and to help keep the Atlantic sea lanes open and leave Europe to its fate?
Post war Britain was a grim place, I was a youngster growing up then, the Governments of the day made lots of mistakes, Labour and Tory, right up to Thatcher, our economy was a basket case, even after we joined the Common Market. Mrs T finally put an end to it, not the CM, she made war on the Unions, taking on the Miners, destroying homes, villages, and a whole way of life for lots of people. Maggie became top dog and ruled the roost, right through three General Elections and up to (yours and mine favourite) Tony Blair.
Prior to that, Harold Wilson had taken us into the Common Market with a two thirds majority in the first Europe referendum (the one on June 23rd last year was the second) and it had helped to set us on an even keel, but the desire of some member states to enlarge the CM and to turn it into the EEC, began, it became a 'Trojan Horse', designed to lead towards a single state. The 'gravy train' was really working full pelt by now and lots of people (yours truly amongst them) got suckered into believing the EU propaganda, even though on the ground, via some ludicrous EU projects, I and many others could see it was all 'smoke and mirrors'. At a crucial stage, Mrs T was 'blindsided' by Heseltine and Clarke in particular as far as Europe was concerned and completely took her eye off the ball when the Falklands War exploded. Under this distraction Maggie allowed Britain to signup to treaty after treaty that led us to where we are now. At no time were the British public ever consulted directly about the direction of travel, until Brexit.
Cameron was an unlikely hero, because it was him, not Farage, who granted the referendum, of course he and much of our elite politicans had no idea whatsoever of the genie within the bottle, the rest as they say is history.
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Yeah, it's not so much of a work immigration discussion as it is "what the feck do we do with these kids" discussion, but it's actually starting to become a really big problem. The true winners though are the businesses, since they have a huge supply of reliable (and often cheap) labor and don't have to go through the process of training them or risking hiring some useless weapon that does not do their job.