Well, I think we went to much of topic. sorry about that. I will not discuss that anymore
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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Yes I was referring to how it was an 'out of the blue' resignation, no one saw it coming!
There were lots of conspiracy theories going at the time, including revenge by the CIA, that Wilson was having a secret affair with a female colleague, that he had secretly been working for the Russians (where have we heard that recently?) and also that the South African (the Apartheid lot, pre Mandela) and/or Ian Smith (Rhodesia etc.) were after him as well.. mmmn! pays your money you takes your choice... or maybe he just had enough!
Oh dear Paul and here's me thinking you had intellect and intelligence; you, claim to 'know' something you cannot possibly know, and 'to think' what other people are thinking... mind reading perhaps?
I would suggest that if ever your career in trading falters, you might consider a career on the stage, absolutely laughable!
You're not thinking it through to its obvious conclusion. Initially you'll definitely see (and we already have) lots of people moving from poor areas to richer ones. As that process continues though, you also see business and investment starting to build in the poorer countries as people take advantage of lower costs and prices. Initially that may seem like a negative, but over time as wealth in those countries increases and as ex-pats return to their countries of origin with the money they made abroad, the playing field starts to level out.
It's a very long process of course and there's pain along the way, but the final destination is a much more equal and balanced Europe.
You described race to the bottom very well in the middle of that. If / when expats return home and business is investing in cheap markets, wages will be driven up and poorer markets sought by said firms. When recession hits we will face austerity and people will move again. Rinse repeat, forever.
AKA Economic cycle, it doesn't matter where you are or what you do, the rinse and repeat will occur.
Only i font believe those skilled people would return. Why would they once they've experienced better lives in better countries?
Because the same thing happens in the "better" countries, the cycle that you described is true for everyone North and South, foreigners come when there are jobs and leave when there aren't jobs(Obviously a non negligible part stays no matter what because they built a family) . Also the migration between countries isn't that big in Europe, so your premise that all skilled people would leave the south is completely fallacious, the actual mobility of workers in Europe is relatively poor, we are not the US where someone from New York is easily willing to move to Houston for a job.
The EU is a closed system, there comes a point where there is no cheaper place to move to. That's the whole point. As for why people would move back there, there are a whole host of reasons. People often want to return to the country of their birth later in life, especially if they can have a higher standard of living there after making money abroad. You can already see large numbers of well educated and qualified Polish people returning to Poland after spending some years making money in the U.K. and elsewhere. They often use that money to establish their own businesses and make investments back in Poland.
Sorry my mistake, I am just basing my opinion on factual experience. I work with loads of foreigners and trust me they are not hoping their place of birth really succeeds so they can go back.
I'm seeing more polish people arriving in Holland than ever before. A colleague of mine was told "Name your price" to go and work in Poland, he turned it down. These countries may improve their standards of life over time but they will never catch up with the north and west of Europe, never.
Never say never. Things change over time, but we're talking decades not years. It's about reshaping an entire continent, this isn't overnight stuff.
I'll be retired by then, maybe I will start posting as Stan De Wolf when I retire.
You'll probably be dead by then, and the rest of us too.
That's not what I'm telling you and that's not what you assumed either. You made the point that all skilled people would leave southern countries and that they wouldn't go back, that's wrong. First because a minority of skilled people actually move(not all) and because like the crisis of 2007-2008 showed foreigners go back to their countries when the job market isn't good.
You can keep making cheap snide remarks if that keeps you happy - if you had kept up with the thread you would know I retired last year.
What do you think has been happening on here. Every single claim by Brexiters has been debunked, there is no rational argument.
It is clear that they don't understand how trade works, they don't understand how the immigration laws work, they don't understand how parliament works and certainly not the EU system.
Then we come to dear Mr Farage - as all he offers the world is bile against foreigners and he is your hero, what logical conclusion would you come to - he is your hero because he is what....a moronic waste of space who is a racist and xenophobic. It is not Poles, Muslims or Asians or whatever offends him which is a threat to the UK, it is disgusting pathetic shit-stirrers like him who revel in promoting hatred.
Good for you, join the club!
On this thread I assume you mean?
Well what I think is that the majority posting are remainers, interspaced by some remoaners, most of who seemed to have left Britain anyway. Like a lot, but not all of their ilk (notice I'm not trying to 'tar everyone with the same brush' as you appear to want to do) who can't accept they lost the referendum and that they lost precisely because they tend to think they know better than anyone else, always a dangerous position to adopt, they have fired off a salvo of opinions, some no doubt honestly held, about what they think will happen after Brexit!
The problem seems to be that for most remainers/remoaners they are looking at things entirely through self absorbing/reflecting lenses, in other words 'seeing what they want to see, believing what they want to believe' precisely (almost) what they are accusing 'Leavers' of doing.
Farage stepped into the chasm left by our so called liberal politicians, between what they wanted to do and what the majority of Britain's living in Britain, didn't want to do and he applied political pressure until the pips squeaked. I don't agree with everything Nigel says, not by a long way, but he almost single-handedly and suffering much personal abuse in the process, forced a question to be put, the answer to which has brought forth an idea whose time has come... and there is little that is more powerful than that.
Yes on here I mean.
Why call remainers remoaners - 17.4 million people have decided to put the country they live in and the so-called remoaners , in dire danger, they have a right to moan about it, it's insane.
If you think that no-one has a right to moan then Brexiters should have accepted the 1975 referendum result and just shut up. Suck it up as Brexiters say.
There are very few remainers on here that have moved abroad, as far as I know there's only myself and Kentonio who live abroad and I didn't vote , I can't remember if Kentonio did or not. There's a couple of anti-EU rather than pro-Brexit posters living abroad posting on here in FBR and Stan but they didn't vote.
Other posters; non-British people living outside the UK are quite welcome to join the discussion and express their opinion. Strange, Brexiters don't seem to like that.
The difference between remainers and leavers is that the leavers can't put forward one single point of benefit for the Leave campaign , nothing adds up, it's so easy to disprove. There is some opinion but most of it is actual things Brexiters claim the UK will do when quite clearly they won't be able to do.
I could claim I'm going to win the lottery and I'll be sorted for the rest of my life, it's not going to happen , living in some dream world and ignoring all obvious outcomes won't make it happen.
Back to Farage- he receives a lot of personal abuse because he is a racist and a xenophobe, very simple.
He used people's prejudices to advance his political career, not very successfully but let's say notoriety and hid behind UKIP to revel in his hatred for foreigners. He couldn't openly act like the National Front or other neo-Nazi organisations and tried to distance himself from them, constantly denying he is a racist or xenophobic, just a born liar.
So we're at the point now where the Uk will leave the EU, the Uk will be so called independent, he has no further purpose.
So if someone said Adolf Hitler was their hero, what would you say, because they liked the way he played music, I was born yesterday, didn't you know.
Talking of Adolf, Austrians vote tomorrow and it looks likely to be a far right anti eu vote.
Because they are remoaners, you just said "they have a right to moan", hence they are called 'remoaners', its not rocket science Paul!
First of all I didn't say they didn't have the right to moan, its just that it becomes repetitive and pointless, when the losing side keep moaning and the referendum has been held and the result known.
If, as you say the brexiteers, should have accepted the results of the first referendum, they probably would have if it had been about creating a super state, but it was about joining a common market.
Thank you for clearing that up!
Control of our own borders; Make our own laws; dispense our own justice; make our own trade deals; save around £8-10B in subs! (you should know these by now Paul)
No one in public life should have to be subject to personal abuse and their families suffer threats, no matter how much you disagree with their ideals, that is a slippery slope, as I am sure you are old enough to realise Paul. Disagree by all means, as I said I don't agree with everything Nigel says, but he has been a catalyst for millions to have their views listened to and that's what I suspect you and the other 'remainers/remoaners'
cannot forgive.
That may well be true! However I suspect it won't be, unless the UK is not so called independent, but is actually independent!
So let's be equally childish and call the Brexiters bremoaners because they must be moaning about the EU, duh!
Who cares if the referendum result is known, it's not going to change people's minds and it's not going to stop them protesting about it - it's not going to help to sit back and let a bunch of gullible fools destroy their country.
I didn't say they should accept the result from 1975 and shut up. I said you can't complain, sorry moan, that the 2016 result is not accepted either, you can't have it both ways.
The items you list are exactly confirm the incorrectness. The Uk does control its own borders - one down, the UK does makes its own laws, two down, dispense your own justice, enemies of the state, three down, save £8-£10bn - already lost that and far more to lose - four down - I'll give you the fifth that you can make your own trade deals , of course that will be after the UK has regained it's WTO some time in the future, better hope that transitional deal comes through and lasts long enough, don't forgot that you'll need all those many teams of negotiators dealing with every country individually - the few you've got at the moment work for the EU. Better start the customs and civil servant recruitment and building all those facilities, yet more expense, going to prove very expensive saving all that money.
If you think the membership of the EU means a USE then that is another assumption and you say that is not what you voted for. The UK could have blocked that if that would have ever been the case.
Now let's get back to 2016.
Some Leavers voted for the £350m or at least this imaginary money to be spent on the NHS - can they change their mind as this money doesn't exist and if it did it won't be spent on the NHS.
Some thought that the UK didn't control its borders, some thought that immigrants were criminals, some thought that the Uk had no control over their laws, some even thought that all the immigrants would go home or immigration would stop altogether, etc etc
As all of these people were wrong, they haven't voted for what they thought they were voting for.
Farage deserves everything he gets - he promotes hatred and because of his actions thousands of people receive far worse abuse than he has, all he has to do is shut up and disappear.
If you don't condemn what he is then you are complicit.
The Uk will revert to what it was pre the EEC - US puppet, if that is what you think is independent
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I don't follow Austrian politics very closely - does that mean that all neo-Nazis are anti EU, weird that they call the EU fascists.
You could change it to Stanny de la Rue
Clearly you do, but are 'sniping from behind cover', sorry, from over the water!
Sorry, I thought that is what you meant, perhaps these should be referred to as the 'Common Marketeers'?
Only as far as non-EU immigrants are concerned.. this is old hat Paul, clutching at straws!
Only those that do not impinge on EU matters, everything else is governed by Brussels Directives that the UK is then required to turn into, or to incorporate into existing UK law ... no choice...Paul you really have not grasped this EU Directive lark have you?
Subject to overarching European Law and to final appeals to the ECJ
Not quite sure what you mean by this, in the context of the EU?
As far as the negotiations are concerned no agreements have been reached yet. Theresa has offered to pay what we owe, if it can be shown that we owe it; obviously the EU can't do this, or if it can it is reluctant to present an itemised bill. I suspect financially the EU 'bean counters' couldn't find their own a*** with both hands.
Thank you, point noted.
(1) It does mean precisely that, that is the end goal, that's what the EU will be able to go 'full steam ahead' for when we are gone!
(2) Never asked if we wanted to vote for this, until June 2016!
(3) The British public never got to debate this whole total integration into USE thing, until it became an ' in or out' situation. No political party in Britain, except UKIP, ever planned to ask, or even to discuss this with the British people, until Cameron and he had his hand forced by Nigel and some within his own party. Some 'opt outs' of various issues were negotiated, at various treaty's along the way, but this had the effect of depicting the British as being 'poor or reluctant' Europeans and was in fact, the beginning of the end. Britain was effectively relegated to the second division in the EU and if we had stayed, we would never have gained promotion, especially whilst still retaining the pound sterling.
Some remainers believed Britain would float off into the Atlantic after 23rd June, some remainers actually stated that industry would crumble, millions made unemployed, within days or weeks of the vote being known, some remainers said we would lose all our current EU workers, they would leave in droves, some remaoners can't get over that they lost, some remoaners want to continue a debate and keep having referendums, until they get the result that they want, no remainers ever gave a single positive reason for remaining in the EU, every utterance they made was in terms of 'project fear', all remoaners can't accept that Brexit is an idea whose time has come!
Farage deserves praise for sticking to his ideas, but above all for becoming the catalyst that gave millions of people in Britain a voice!
Hah, Hah... or we could become the '52nd State', or was it 'runway 52'? You've forgot those two. I should stay where you are Paul, you can always come back for a visit on your British Passport (that's if you retain it!)
@I Believe
Back to your old tricks of half quoting, the others gave up with you taking everything out of context
Sorry I'm going to stop as well, you clearly hold the same views as Farage which are totally unacceptable.
Like all Brexiters though you refuse to accept anything approaching reality and as usual revert to snide remarks because you lose the debate.
The Brexiters deserve everything that's coming their way, unfortunately the remainers have to suffer too because they won as well apparently .
Don't worry there is no way I will ever come back.
Back to your old tricks of half quoting, the others gave up with you taking everything out of context
Sorry I'm going to stop as well, you clearly hold the same views as Farage which are totally unacceptable.
Like all Brexiters though you refuse to accept anything approaching reality and as usual revert to snide remarks because you lose the debate.
The Brexiters deserve everything that's coming their way, unfortunately the remainers have to suffer too because they won as well apparently .
Don't worry there is no way I will ever come back.
Sorry about that, I enjoyed our exchanges, you are right we will never convince one another, but then we never would, would we?
Enjoy your retirement Paul.
Best wishes.
To me, that's all jingoistic claptrap designed to pander to the masses. Some may genuinely fear an EU superstate, but no UK government or party has ever supported that and we have veto anyway.
It's purely a smokescreen. It was vote against immigration. Although we could already control non-EU inflows, people feared hordes of refugees would swarm over through the EU, at a time of heightened Islamophobia.
I'm a business journalist and my wife works in financial services. We can both plainly see the damage Brexit will do to the economy. Jobs are already going, investment has been held back too.
Can you tell me one economic positive of Brexit? I'm intrigued.
Also, who is going to fill all of the unskilled jobs that are largely done by Eastern Europeans? The services industry, our biggest, will die on its arse.
Asset striping the UK once the damage is in full flow. A handful of billionares stand to make a few more billion for themselves.
There's not much of the family silver left though.
Yes, we 'intellectual types' can't be seen to pander to the masses, can we, they keep coal in the bath don't you know.. good heavens what next!
Don't fear it... just don't want to live in it!
No, they've always known best..and no party has ever asked the people of Britain if they want that or not, except Cameron, but now they know!
So, you feel as if you have a lot to lose?
Saving on EU subs!
Eastern Europeans! However we will control the 'flows' of such workers, if we wish, we could let even more in, the important thing is we control the quotas
I can't do that sort of quoting on my phone, but the divorce bill, sterling depreciation and likely tariffs will wipe out at least a generation's savings on EU subs, at best.
I'm not worried about my wife or I, more the likes of the misguided Sunderland Nissan workers who may have overwhelmingly voted themselves out of a job.
Seriously, why would the US, China or whoever give us favourable trade deals? I'm sure you saw Trump's tariffs on Bombardier? That is what we're facing.
Funny how those who live in fear of ECJ jurisdiction can never name a single law from the EU which has negatively effected them. Is it the sewage free beaches you hate? Or the workers rights? Or the safety tested products?
Never mind the fact that manufacturers will still have to comply with these regs if they want to sell into the EU. And no manufacturer is going to change their products to suit our market over the much larger EU.
So for UK manufacturers (those that still exist), not only will they have to be approved for UK regs, but for EU regs as well. And even if the regs are copy and pasted, the testing for EU sales will still have to be done at an EU approved tester within the EU.
This means that R&D costs are doubled, making UK manufacturers even less competitive.
For the company I work for, the type approval centre is now french-owned, and tests to EU regs. So the test centre itself is likely to move out of the UK, meaning there isn't even a testing facility within the UK. And even if it stays, it's approvals aren't worth the paper they're written on for export.
But this is all OK, because we can sell elsewhere right? Er, the US, Aus, NZ eta are all far more protectionist and have their own approvals and require their own testing at an approved facility.
Those dreaming of expanding our international trade are dreaming. Brexit will kill off what is left of UK international manufacturing.
Never mind the fact that manufacturers will still have to comply with these regs if they want to sell into the EU. And no manufacturer is going to change their products to suit our market over the much larger EU.
So for UK manufacturers (those that still exist), not only will they have to be approved for UK regs, but for EU regs as well. And even if the regs are copy and pasted, the testing for EU sales will still have to be done at an EU approved tester within the EU.
This means that R&D costs are doubled, making UK manufacturers even less competitive.
For the company I work for, the type approval centre is now french-owned, and tests to EU regs. So the test centre itself is likely to move out of the UK, meaning there isn't even a testing facility within the UK. And even if it stays, it's approvals aren't worth the paper they're written on for export.
But this is all OK, because we can sell elsewhere right? Er, the US, Aus, NZ eta are all far more protectionist and have their own approvals and require their own testing at an approved facility.
Those dreaming of expanding our international trade are dreaming. Brexit will kill off what is left of UK international manufacturing.
The EU seem to be struggling to give us an itemised bill, in any case unless an overall deal can be done it won't happen, we will all tumble over the cliff together... what do they say, "only the lawyers will benefit"!
That's good!
Yes, that's what comes of working in the North East, lots of misguided souls up there, some even support their local football team? I thought Nissan had recently announced expansion plans for the North East? Someone was telling me it is Nissan's most productive plant anywhere in Europe, that's probably why Theresa has done them a 'special deal' on Brexit; although no one seem willing to announce what that is?
Because we are not in the EU...? They can get access to our markets on bi-lateral basis!
Yes I've read about the proposals and would being in the EU make any difference?
As I understand it one of the reasons for these tariffs being imposed is because Boeing have claimed 'state aid' has been used to subsidise Bombardier's manufacturing? Also since we are a customer of Boeings we have already put a shot across their bow over this, asking them to 'play nice'. I suspect given that Bombardier is a Canadian company, that's were this will get settled.
This is the way international trade works, is it not? There is a Brexit issue about our trading within the EU, that ideally needs to be settled by a 'deal', but as far as trade with the rest of the world is concerned we shall probably do at least as well, probably even better on our own.
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I'm massively pro-EU, but their regulations and taxes on cameras sold in the EU meant one of better cameras to come out in the last decade has a 29 minutes 59 second recording limit (per recording that is, you can do multiple 30 minute recordings on said camera), which means I can't use it to film things that last more than half an hour. That's definitely negatively effected me because I've had to film things like speeches or conferences with an inferior camera. They released an optional software upgrade for £150 (the cost of the tax) a couple of years after release, but it was definitely a ballache while we couldn't use it.
This is just bullshit. Why do people repeat that crap? You should know better, you really should.
You never lost control of your borders, the EU never had a say in that. You do make your own laws and you do have your own justice system.
And if you really think that the UK, irrelevant as it is as an economic power, can somehow reach better trade deals outside of the EU than inside of it I have to question your sanity. You are even LEAVING a bunch of them by leaving the EU you will not be able to renegotiate as favorably. The UK will be a beggar, and don’t try to tell me that the Indians or Chinese will suddenly discover their generous side. The US will just be happy they can force all their standards on you as the Tories, just as it is their tradition, will bend over their arses to them. And then they’ll celebrate as they are getting b^ttfecked because being at the mercy of the American food lobby is just so much better than having to comply to those evil fascists in Brüssel!
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Okay, so that’s what you believe? Really? Wow. How does it benefit other countries when the market they gain access to is smaller than it would be otherwise?
I can only think of one and it’s the one that is going to happen: if anyone is even interested in having a trade deal with the UK (and at least for emerging countries, that’s not even guaranteed, as opening in their markets regulations when the markets access they gain in return is so small) the only benefit they will see from UK is not in the EU is that it’s way easier to push a small country around than a bigger one. The UK will be seen as a beggar and it’s indefinitely smaller as an economy and market as any of those countries it seeks to have deals with. How can you actually think they will get better deals as the EU.
As for the Bombardier situation, just google on Bush jr‘s Steel tariffs. They got killed pretty much instantly by the EU by threatening to lay tariffs on agricultural products from core republican states.
That mattered to Bush as we are talking about a 500 million people market. Do you really think he would have given in so easily to the much smaller UK?
Do you really think we would have protested against our American Overlords decision anyway? I mean we marched into an illegal war on his say so... so whats a few tarrifs
Not sure if your from Barca but genuinely whats the feeling there about trade etc if they declare independence?