Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[I Believe]

It's totally irrelevant.

Thank you, its 'totally' irrelevant - now tell me why?
Spanner seems to think it benefits Britain having the pound sterling, whilst still in the EU, but he hasn't told me why yet?

However you say its irrelevant? Again why is it irrelevant, tell me why then was there a run (the worst run ever) on the Pound the moment Britain went anywhere near linking the Euro to Sterling, please note, these are not opinions, not bullshit, this actually happened its a fact, not fake news.

Now lets see you up your game and tell my why!

 

[Massive Spanner]

Can you explain why that is the case?

In particular why there was a run on Sterling when Norman Lamont tried to gets us into the ERM (exchange rate mechanism -this was the one that was supposed to link us and then run us alongside the euro and it was suppose to be Britain's first step, before going into the euro 'all in'?



What I mean - See earlier reply to JPRouve where I've tried to flesh out what I mean

What's there to explain here? The past ten years leading up to Brexit have shown why the UK keeping the Sterling was a great idea, given the crash of the Euro.

You're the one asking the question, why don't you answer it?

 

[Massive Spanner]

Spanner seems to think it benefits Britain having the pound sterling, whilst still in the EU, but he hasn't told me why yet?

Don't twist my words. You're just trying to be clever now by drawing me into a random argument. Why are you even bringing up the Sterling?

you're either a WUM or an idiot, I hope it's the former.

 

[I Believe]

Apparently the Uk want to change its currency to the US Dollar to cosy up with Trump in the NAFTA agreement

Actually that's nothing new Paul, there has always been a small majority (amongst rampant Tories) who have argued for this and yes it will come to the fore again now because of Brexit.
However the same constraints/requirements apply to that solution, as did the give up Sterling for the Euro, you may have been around just long enough to know why, so lets hear it?

 

[I Believe]

You're the one asking the question, why don't you answer it?

I will eventually, you've had me on the rack, now its your turn, support your statement with 'facts' Spanner, or retire gracefully from the field, it was an honour to have crossed swords with you!

 

[Massive Spanner]

I will eventually, you've had me on the rack, now its your turn, support your statement with 'facts' Spanner, or retire gracefully from the field, it was an honour to have crossed swords with you!

You don't have me on the rack. You asked a question out of the blue that had nothing to do with anything that I said. I never said anything as a "fact".

Enough of your "eventually" bollocks, just answer the question that you posed if you want a response to it.

You're probably not as stupid as you act, though, I'll give you that, as we both know there's very little hard evidence out there to support either side of the Sterling vs Euro argument, because it's pretty much impossible to say whether it's a good or bad thing outright, you need to more-so look at the way things have gone for the UK under the Sterling and form an opinion, but you knew that didn't you, which is why you asked the question that you won't answer yourself, which further leads me to believe that you're just a sad WUM.

it wasn't an honour to cross swords with you by the way, it was more so like crossing a steaming pile of turds with you, maybe. Like when you have to shut down your brain so you can talk to children who ask silly questions like "d'ya tink unicorns are in the starz?"

 

[I Believe]

Why are you even bringing up the Sterling?

Because I was taking up your suggestion to discuss facts, not opinion, not bullshit, 'facts'.

See my report #18597 posted at 11.21 today

This was my fact. Britain in retaining the pound sterling is in the minority of countries within the EU, the majority being in the euro-zone
Then followed up with a question, what are the positives and negatives of this situation if Britain stayed in the EU?

if you have given up on this one, or just tired of it, then if you want, then you state a 'fact' relevant to Britain's continued membership or otherwise of the EU and we can debate it, but we have to start with a 'fact' one we can both agree on, not your opinion, or my opinion, these we can advance afterwards, if you wish?

 

[Massive Spanner]

Because I was taking up your suggestion to discuss facts, not opinion, not bullshit, 'facts'.

See my report #18597 posted at 11.21 today

This was my fact. Britain in retaining the pound sterling is in the minority of countries within the EU, the majority being in the euro-zone
Then followed up with a question, what are the positives and negatives of this situation if Britain stayed in the EU?

if you have given up on this one, or just tired of it, then if you want, then you state a 'fact' relevant to Britain's continued membership or otherwise of the EU and we can debate it, but we have to start with a 'fact' one we can both agree on, not your opinion, or my opinion, these we can advance afterwards, if you wish?

What the feck sort of fact is that?

Wow, Britain is in the minority of EU countries in that it keeps the sterling, who fecking knew? That is some absolute Grade A research there, I mean my god, it must have taken them ages to figure out that one.

Here, I have a fact for you.

There are ~65.6m people in the UK

What are the benefits and/or disadvantages to those people eating pizza to the economy?

Please answer cause I gave you a fact so like, you have to give me facts on 65.6m people eating pizza and its benefits to an economy now.

 

[JPRouve]

Thank you, its 'totally' irrelevant - now tell me why?
Spanner seems to think it benefits Britain having the pound sterling, whilst still in the EU, but he hasn't told me why yet?

However you say its irrelevant? Again why is it irrelevant, tell me why then was there a run (the worst run ever) on the Pound the moment Britain went anywhere near linking the Euro to Sterling, please note, these are not opinions, not bullshit, this actually happened its a fact, not fake news.

Now lets see you up your game and tell my why!

I don't see the relevancy to the subject unless I missed something. As for explaining the decisions of an highly speculative market that wouldn't be clever but I can try and say that linking the Sterling with the Euro would most likely make the Sterling less relevant at least I imagine that some investors would anticipate something like that which means that said investors are likely to sell their Sterlings and replace them with a money that they deemed better priced(Euro, Yen or Dollar).

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Actually that's nothing new Paul, there has always been a small majority (amongst rampant Tories) who have argued for this and yes it will come to the fore again now because of Brexit.
However the same constraints/requirements apply to that solution, as did the give up Sterling for the Euro, you may have been around just long enough to know why, so lets hear it?

I was joking actually.

However, regarding the Euro/Sterling debate - we all know currencies fluctuate - The UK have never been obliged to accept the Euro and had done quite well by staying out of the Euro and indeed recovered quicker from the last recession than the EUZ.
Imo the strength of a currency is the strength of the country.

This raises several points - how is the UK a second class beneficiary because they're not in the Euro, clearly untrue and everyone was bragging how well the UK economy was doing until 2015.
When the pound collapsed because the Uk made an economic mistake last year, Brexiters claim that the pound was overvalued and are happy to see it slide, if it had been in the Euro it wouldn't have dropped so much.
Now if the Uk leaves the EU off a cliff edge, the pound will really nosedive, effectively turning a currency that not so long ago was the leading currency reserve into a third rate currency.

The Uk have this uncanny ability to keep shooting itself in the foot, blaming everyone else but cosying up to the country who has in reality been the cause of their downfall from a once leading world power.

 

[I Believe]

What the feck sort of fact is that?

One that relates to the subject of Britain in the EU!

That is some absolute Grade A research there, I mean my god, it must have taken them ages to figure out that one.

No, that's the beauty of facts Spanner, they are clear and unequivocal, not made up, or tinge with some ones' opinion, but everyone knows them.

The issue becomes important when the facts get in the way of some one's opinion and are jettisoned, as you are prone to do, along with @devilish; @Kentonio; @Nogbadthebad ; @JPRouve; @afrocentricity: @Regulus Arcturus Black: @NinjaFletch and a few others do. Where as @Paul the Wolf
is very careful, steers around or over facts but nevertheless gets his argument across without too much bile and name calling.

I can be guilty of that as well, so will be first to add my 'mea culpa'..anyone else?

 

[JPRouve]

One that relates to the subject of Britain in the EU!



No, that's the beauty of facts Spanner, they are clear and unequivocal, not made up, or tinge with some ones' opinion, but everyone knows them.

The issue becomes important when the facts get in the way of some one's opinion and are jettisoned, as you are prone to do, along with @devilish; @Kentonio; @Nogbadthebad ; @JPRouve; @afrocentricity: @Regulus Arcturus Black: @NinjaFletch and a few others do. Where as @Paul the Wolf
is very careful, steers around or over facts but nevertheless gets his argument across without too much bile and name calling.

I can be guilty of that as well, so will be first to add my 'mea culpa'..anyone else?

When did I jettisoned your opinion?

 

[NinjaFletch]

One that relates to the subject of Britain in the EU!



No, that's the beauty of facts Spanner, they are clear and unequivocal, not made up, or tinge with some ones' opinion, but everyone knows them.

The issue becomes important when the facts get in the way of some one's opinion and are jettisoned, as you are prone to do, along with @devilish; @Kentonio; @Nogbadthebad ; @JPRouve; @afrocentricity: @Regulus Arcturus Black: @NinjaFletch and a few others do. Where as @Paul the Wolf
is very careful, steers around or over facts but nevertheless gets his argument across without too much bile and name calling.

I can be guilty of that as well, so will be first to add my 'mea culpa'..anyone else?

I've barely spoken to you about Brexit you utter loon.

In fact I'm pretty sure the only time I've ever quoted you is to call you out for calling someone a gobshite, so it's a particularly odd tagging.

 

[Massive Spanner]

One that relates to the subject of Britain in the EU!



No, that's the beauty of facts Spanner, they are clear and unequivocal, not made up, or tinge with some ones' opinion, but everyone knows them.

The issue becomes important when the facts get in the way of some one's opinion and are jettisoned, as you are prone to do, along with @devilish; @Kentonio; @Nogbadthebad ; @JPRouve; @afrocentricity: @Regulus Arcturus Black: @NinjaFletch and a few others do. Where as @Paul the Wolf
is very careful, steers around or over facts but nevertheless gets his argument across without too much bile and name calling.

I can be guilty of that as well, so will be first to add my 'mea culpa'..anyone else?

you're missing my point, though, your "fact" is irrelevant, it's just a meanjingless fact, much like my example before. it's totally irrelevant to any discussion here. you can't just state a fact and go "OK NOW TELL ME WHY THIS IS GOOD OR BAD PLEASE" with zero context or debate from your end. all you were doing was trying to provoke people as some weird, petty payback for you being proven to be talking nonsense with your "facts" yesterday.

 

[afrocentricity]

Why am I being tagged into this nonsense?

 

[I Believe]

Imo the strength of a currency is the strength of the country

Wow Paul thought you were getting close there for a moment!

Looking, back briefly, Britain's move to join the ERM to bring it inline with the euro, was catastrophic, speculators ran riot, we were forced to back off. Ultimately with some negotiated opt outs, and rebate, then retaining the pound was to our advantage during the crash and just after.

However looking to the future, as the focus of the EU is to ever greater integration, any country with a major currency other than the euro, will suffer, if they are inside the EU.

The three major world currencies are the Dollar/Sterling/Euro if Britain, inside the EU, insists on retaining the pound Sterling against the background of ever greater integration of the EU it will suffer because all major decisions within the EU that affect currency rates will, naturally enough, be taken on the basis of what suits the Euro, not the pound Sterling.

This is the last stop for the EU integration bus, Germany and France combined will see to that. We either get on the bus properly, for the full ride, jettison our opt outs, return our rebate, dump the Pound Sterling and become full fare-paying passengers... or we get off the bus. Britain has decide albeit by a small margin, to get off the bus... while its still can!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I Believe what he's trying to say is that the countries in the Eurozone vote and base EU policy on whether or not the policy will strengthen the Eurozone, regardless of what it might do to the Danish Krona, Swedish Krona, British Pound.

Oh, and the UK is powerless to do anything about it.

I mean, it's all bollocks obviously, and is once again an example of a Brexiter portraying the UK as some unfortunate kid at school who has no choice but to listen to his teachers, rather than a member of the EU big 4 and prominent in all decision making within the EU.

 

[JPRouve]

I Believe what he's trying to say is that the countries in the Eurozone vote and base EU policy on whether or not the policy will strengthen the Eurozone, regardless of what it might do to the Danish Krona, Swedish Krona, British Pound.

Oh, and the UK is powerless to do anything about it.

I mean, it's all bollocks obviously, and is once again an example of a Brexiter portraying the UK as some unfortunate kid at school who has no choice but to listen to his teachers, rather than a member of the EU big 4 and prominent in all decision making within the EU.

But that's what the countries you mentioned do, without the Eurozone having a say. They didn't join the Eurozone because they wanted to have that power.

 

[I Believe]

you can't just state a fact and go "OK NOW TELL ME WHY THIS IS GOOD OR BAD PLEASE" with zero context or debate from your end

I was just letting you go first!

The context was ever closer integration in the EU, the debate was how will Britain benefit or suffer in an ever more integrated EU if it still retains a major currency, which is not the currency of the new state?

Discuss please!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

But that's what the countries you mentioned do, without the Eurozone having a say. They didn't join the Eurozone because they wanted to have that power.

I know.

But he means EU policy, rather than Eurozone policy. At least I think.

What EU policy he means that could hugely strengthen the Eurozone whilst simultaneously weakening the eight countries that don't adopt the Euro I have no idea. And that somehow these countries would be powerless is a recurring theme for Brexiters, they genuinely believe the UK has no say in EU policy as it stands.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I was just letting you go first!

The context was ever closer integration in the EU, the debate was how will Britain benefit or suffer in an ever more integrated EU if it still retains a major currency, which is not the currency of the new state?

Discuss please!

I don't know. I haven't looked into it. I can't read the future. I didn't bring it up or try to get involved in a discussion about it. You tried to drag me into one.

I can't post facts about something to which there are zero facts. You didn't ask for me to discuss, you asked for me to post "facts", how can I post facts about something which is in the future and which is basically all speculative?

Are you willing to post facts about it to support your side of the argument?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Wow Paul thought you were getting close there for a moment!

Looking, back briefly, Britain's move to join the ERM to bring it inline with the euro, was catastrophic, speculators ran riot, we were forced to back off. Ultimately with some negotiated opt outs, and rebate, then retaining the pound was to our advantage during the crash and just after.

However looking to the future, as the focus of the EU is to ever greater integration, any country with a major currency other than the euro, will suffer, if they are inside the EU.

The three major world currencies are the Dollar/Sterling/Euro if Britain, inside the EU, insists on retaining the pound Sterling against the background of ever greater integration of the EU it will suffer because all major decisions within the EU that affect currency rates will, naturally enough, be taken on the basis of what suits the Euro, not the pound Sterling.

This is the last stop for the EU integration bus, Germany and France combined will see to that. We either get on the bus properly, for the full ride, jettison our opt outs, return our rebate, dump the Pound Sterling and become full fare-paying passengers... or we get off the bus. Britain has decide albeit by a small margin, to get off the bus... while its still can!

This is simply untrue, the UK has never had to adopt the Euro - if it decides to reapply to the EU it will. It has not suffered because it is not in the Eurozone.
Sorry but this is a weak excuse to justify the referendum result .
The Pound remaining as one of the three major currencies is highly debatable with a cliff edge departure so there you go again - the UK shooting itself in the foot again.

Look back to the 50s and 60s and see what happened to the pound then.

The USD and the Euro are by far the major world currencies, the pound has been competing with the Yen for quite some time for 3rd and then the CAD and AUD have emerged plus the Chinese Yuan. The Uk seems determined to drop down the ladder, it has to stop living in the past.

 

[Kentonio]

One that relates to the subject of Britain in the EU!

No, that's the beauty of facts Spanner, they are clear and unequivocal, not made up, or tinge with some ones' opinion, but everyone knows them.

The issue becomes important when the facts get in the way of some one's opinion and are jettisoned, as you are prone to do, along with @devilish; @Kentonio; @Nogbadthebad ; @JPRouve; @afrocentricity: @Regulus Arcturus Black: @NinjaFletch and a few others do. Where as @Paul the Wolf
is very careful, steers around or over facts but nevertheless gets his argument across without too much bile and name calling.

I can be guilty of that as well, so will be first to add my 'mea culpa'..anyone else?

You've singularly failed to present me with a single 'fact' that actually supports your argument or which cannot be easily refuted within minutes.

Then again I'm fairly sure you're just trolling everyone anyway, so whatever gives you your kicks.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

In other news Liam Fox, and Liam Fox alone, is the new Board of Trade

 

[devilish]

One that relates to the subject of Britain in the EU!



No, that's the beauty of facts Spanner, they are clear and unequivocal, not made up, or tinge with some ones' opinion, but everyone knows them.

The issue becomes important when the facts get in the way of some one's opinion and are jettisoned, as you are prone to do, along with @devilish; @Kentonio; @Nogbadthebad ; @JPRouve; @afrocentricity: @Regulus Arcturus Black: @NinjaFletch and a few others do. Where as @Paul the Wolf
is very careful, steers around or over facts but nevertheless gets his argument across without too much bile and name calling.

I can be guilty of that as well, so will be first to add my 'mea culpa'..anyone else?

where have I insulted you? I was wondering what was your role in the EU. For a moment I also got confused if it was you who worked in the EU or the outsider. You can forgive my mistake since The latter seem far more knowledgeable about it then you

 

[I Believe]

rather than a member of the EU big 4 and prominent in all decision making within the EU.

Exactly that is my point we would no longer be one of the big 4, if we remain inside the EU and retain Sterling as our currency, can you imagine the jollification around the EU when Mrs Merkel and Macron in particular have to tell their respective populations, "sorry folks we cannot do x, y or z because Britain objects that such actions will devalue the pound, so we are not taking this action and instead its the Euro that's being devalued, so be careful where you choose to take your holidays?

Yes, all other things being equal, Britain will take a hit on Sterling for the time being, but its true level will be found, so that when we are out we are competing from a solid base. (Hence why there is talk of a ten year recession!)

Its quite possible for a time the almighty dollar will (despite Trump's unpopularity) soar, the Euro will move into second place (almost there now) in terms of world currencies and the pound Sterling will follow up behind them, may even drop out of the top three! There will then be in parts of the political establishment an almighty row about tying the Pound to the Dollar (as Paul indicated earlier). Incidentally its at this point (should we reach it) Nigel may make a return to frontline politics, if the row cannot be sorted then there could be an tremendous upheaval in the political establishment in Britain.

In the EU, Germany and France will take a stranglehold on the future of the EU, the Franco/German axis rekindled in Europe

NB The above is all my opinion, its not fact, I don't claim it to be fact, I don't expect anyone to take as fact, if you want to reply, then please don't just tell me its shite, bollocks or whatever, put a counter opinion, lets discuss!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Exactly that is my point we would no longer be one of the big 4, if we remain inside the EU and retain Sterling as our currency.

Edit: What am I even doing here, I've just realised that I'm an absolute fool for even spending time in this thread again.

Just fecking read man: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2014/545697/EPRS_ATA(2014)545697_REV1_EN.pdf

So unless we'd all of a sudden have a massive decrease in population, you're talking absolute garbage again.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@I Believe
The Euro has been way ahead in 2nd place since it became a currency nearly 20 Years ago, and it was the DM before that - the GBP dropped below the Yen into 4th place before that but recovered to around level par more recently.
The pound will find it's level but it will be a lot lower than if it stayed in the EU so you're sort of arguing against yourself. The pound will suffer because it's out of the EU not because it's in it.

 

[I Believe]

This is simply untrue, the UK has never had to adopt the Euro - if it decides to reapply to the EU it will. It has not suffered because it is not in the Eurozone.

Sorry Paul crediting you with more acumen. I didn't say the UK was forced to adopt the euro , the British Government Chancellor Norman Lamont used the ERM to try to get some sort of linkage between the Pound and the euro going with a view to Britain eventually adopting the Euro, but it became a disaster because of currency speculators and has never been tried since.

My argument is Britain will suffer in the future if it retains Sterling and wants to be a leading light in an EU dedicated to ever closer integration.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

My argument is Britain will suffer in the future if it retains Sterling and wants to be a leading light in an EU dedicated to ever closer integration.

You must also then agree that it will suffer if it retains Sterling and leaves the EU.

I mean, your argument above is pure speculation that goes against 20 years of statistics. So suffer, or suffer, according your view of the World.

 

[I Believe]

I've just realised that I'm an absolute fool for even spending time in this thread again.

Self awareness, is a good thing, don't put yourself down!

 

[I Believe]

You must also then agree that it will suffer if it retains Sterling and leaves the EU.

No, not in the long term, in the short term, maybe, but long term no, that's why I voted to Leave!

 

[Kentonio]

No, not in the long term, in the short term, maybe, but long term no, that's why I voted to Leave!

Might you also be interested in some magic beans I happen to be selling at a price I think you'll find irresistable?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Sorry Paul crediting you with more acumen. I didn't say the UK was forced to adopt the euro , the British Government Chancellor Norman Lamont used the ERM to try to get some sort of linkage between the Pound and the euro going with a view to Britain eventually adopting the Euro, but it became a disaster because of currency speculators and has never been tried since.

My argument is Britain will suffer in the future if it retains Sterling and wants to be a leading light in an EU dedicated to ever closer integration.

No it tried to link it at the value it should have been but it meant because the value was far different at the time - it meant an enormous difference.

What do you think is going to happen if the UK drops out of the EU, the currency speculators will have the pound for breakfast, it will be a disaster, the Uk as a power in world trade will be finished for many years to come. Recessions etc are recovered from in relatively short period of time - this will be cataclysmic in comparison and then you say you voted leave because you fear the Uk may suffer for not being in the Euro whereas the exact opposite has been proved to be the case since the Eurozone came into being. Foot ,shoot, self-harm again come to mind and all because of the lies.

 

[I Believe]

and it was the DM before that

That's the key Paul, the Euro is a stabilizing cover for the old DM, its present and future value is almost totally dependant on the Germany economy taking the strain!

The pound will suffer because it's out of the EU not because it's in it.

Initially that maybe true, at least whilst 'balance' is regained, but of course the Euro will take a big hit as well, losing a 65m market its'n't as big as UK losing some of the EU markets, but its big, especially when a number of the EU southern states economies are only just north of 'basket cases'.

Merkel may have to decide to help France... or save the southern economies, can't do both?
Suspect she might just go for France, but only if Macron gets his reforms through, if not, he may have to whistle for a while!

 

[JPRouve]

I'm really struggling here.

So the idea is that the EU in the future will take decisions that only suit the Eurozone which will make the UK suffer? Said decisions are supposed to be applied to the single market?

Following that premise, you don't want a deal that will give you access to the single market, you want to stay out of it and its rules? That's fine for me.

 

[I Believe]

whereas the exact opposite has been proved to be the case since the Eurozone came into being.

Can't believe this.. are you saying the euro-zone is the saviour of the pound?
For goodness sake man remember the crash, if anything it was the other way round. This is not you Paul, I don't recognise this person who is replying, what have you done with Paul the Wolf!

 

[I Believe]

I'm really struggling here

Yes, I've gathered that!

 

[JPRouve]

Yes, I've gathered that!

Well, you said that you were talking about fact and now you are sharing an opinion that is based on nothing. So I apologize if I struggle to follow you.

 

[I Believe]

Well, you said that you were talking about fact and now you are sharing an opinion that is based on nothing. So I apologize if I struggle to follow you.

No sorry you've missed out a few posts.

The original fact was that Britain retains the pound sterling within the EU (at present)

I was then asking people how they thought this would affect its future, if it stayed within the EU, with the EU moving to ever greater integration.
I then went on to give my opinion, of how I thought this would be detrimental to the UK if it stayed within the EU, I specifically said it was an opinion, not fact and invited others to comment or add their opinions.

You then went on about it being irrelevant but did not specify why you thought this was irrelevant.
You then started talking about the UK affecting another currency, don't know where that came from?

My simple point was that in the future as the EU was moving to ever greater integration, Britain still using another major currency could lead to problems when the EU had to take decisions that would be necessary to support the Euro currency, but may harm the pound sterling, because both currencies are traded on world markets with the dollar in particular and rates between these continuously vary, as much as anything due to speculators.

I was not claiming it was an insurmountable problem, but the key factor here is the EU's majority desire for greater integration, this is not Britain's desire, so we might as well get off the EU bus, before key decisions on currency, amongst other things, need to be taken and which because of the different destinations envisaged, would cause even greater road blocks, which ultimately would have to be overcome by majority voting and at that point Britain would lose out.

I truly believe that if both Britain and the EU can sort out their current differences amicably then we can be good friends and allies, perhaps even better than before. The problem is we want different things (well 17.4 m do) than the EU, so we go our separate ways, so that we can remain friends!

Again apart from the first bit, this is my opinion, its not fact