Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Paul the Wolf]

Quite so Paul and it seems to be giving you that itch you can't scratch because they don't seem concerned - very annoying isn't it, but hey don't worry yourself, you're nice and tucked up, safe in the cosy EU land bed, you can have your duvet-days without a care in the world, Mama Merkel will look after you, don't worry... be happy?

Last time I looked I wasn't living in Germany. Brits obsession with Merkel again, she's a bit late with her intervention with Mrs May to resolve this problem and get the deal sorted. What's the weather like in Cloud Cuckoo Land? By the way my process to get French Nationality is nearly through - I realise now what you were getting at, sorry to disappoint you. By the way I didn't apply to Mrs Merkel as she doesn't run France like she does the UK.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I would truly love to know how "the whole of Ireland will be better off" than a situation where we've a completely open border, Northern Irish people can get both Irish and UK passports, we're one of the safest places on earth, and the South is one of the richest countries on earth.

Maybe after Brexit some mythical leprechauns will show up and feck gold at all of us?

 

[Mozza]

Its just another example of eu shirking, highlight a problem without offering a suggested solution. The fact the issue has arisen cos of the vote is irrelevant.

The EU have rules to allow an open border, they are the ones we live under now. It's the UK populous's inability to handle the sight of a few foreigners that has led to this

 

[Kentonio]

Not at all I'm saying Paul can rest easy, the decisions in the EU will be taken for him, the only possible problem might be if the deal on nationals falls through, then perhaps, just perhaps he needs to look to his passport? However, as I say, Mrs Merkel has promised... well what exactly has she promised to Brits living in the EU? We know Theresa has offered to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living and working in Britain, but not heard much about the proposed reciprocal arrangements from Frau Merkel!.

Ah this fantasyland nonsense again. You know who came out the day after the Brexit vote and gave reassurances about our rights as UK citizens living in Europe? That would be the European leaders in each country, who while the UK government were too busy panicking and then fighting for power, actually bothered to tell us that they'd make sure we'd be ok. There was fecking silence from Westminster, which then evolved into us becoming 'bargaining chips'. So spare me the lies about how the UK government have given one single feck about either us or the EU citizens in the UK.

Are you actually aware that the EU offered a deal whereby all UK citizens would retain all their current rights to live and work in the EU, for life? Weeks later the UK responded by offering a much, MUCH shittier deal, and then claimed that they were the only ones who had made an offer and that it was the EU being difficult. Of course the Mail and Express lapped that crap up, so a lot of UK people actually believed it, despite it being yet again a pile of complete dishonest horseshit.

You want to be taken seriously, then do some damn research before parroting the latest lies you've heard.

 

[sun_tzu]

Are you actually aware that the EU offered a deal whereby all UK citizens would retain all their current rights to live and work in the EU, for life? Weeks later the UK responded by offering a much, MUCH shittier deal, and then claimed that they were the only ones who had made an offer and that it was the EU being difficult. Of course the Mail and Express lapped that crap up, so a lot of UK people actually believed it, despite it being yet again a pile of complete dishonest horseshit.

You want to be taken seriously, then do some damn research before parroting the latest lies you've heard.

interesting - as you say that has not been widely reported ... do you have some links to details of this proposal the EU made to the UK?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

For those that are a bit slow on the uptake on the trading aspect of the Irish Border. Once upon a time...

Mr Antonio Conte In Italy sells a lorry load of Prosecco from Milan to Dublin, lorry gets on a ferry in Cherbourg and sails to Ireland and delivers the Prosecco to John O'Shea in Dublin. A few days later Mr Jonny Evans from Belfast decides to buy the Prosecco from Mr O'Shea and the said Prosecco is delivered to Belfast across the open border.

Meanwhile Mr Boris Johnson in Walthamstow sells a lorry load of Chocolate Cake to Mr Jonny Evans in Belfast and the lorry gets on a ferry in Liverpool and delivers the said Chocolate Cake and Mr Boris Johnson also decides to buy the Prosecco that is sitting in the warehouse in Belfast and takes it back in the lorry on the ferry back to Liverpool. Mr Jonny Evans calls Mr John O'Shea and asked if he is interested in buying the Chocolate Cake he has in stock, they agree a price and the Chocolate Cake is delivered to Dublin on a lorry across the open border.

It then occurred to Mr O'Shea that he remembered someone saying that the French loved the Chocolate Cake made in Walthamstow and called his mate Didier Deschamps in Bordeaux, a deal was agreed and the Chocolate Cake was put on a lorry, shipped on a ferry and duly delivered to Mr Deschamps' warehouse in Bordeaux (where it still sits today).

Question for Brexiteers : As there are no customs checks , where and when are the VAT and Duties paid and by whom, if at all?

 

[sun_tzu]

Question for Brexiteers : As there are no customs checks , where and when are the VAT and Duties paid and by whom, if at all?

Well im certainly not a brexiteer - but to be fair who private individuals, are sole traders. who are limited companies and what countries are said companies incorporated

 

[Kentonio]

interesting - as you say that has not been widely reported ... do you have some links to details of this proposal the EU made to the UK?

Here's a couple.

http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/gu...t-deal-citizenship-rights-theresa-may-2017-7/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...threatens-veto-uks-damp-squib-offer-citizens/

Interesting to note also that the European Parliament get to vote on the agreement after the negotiations and are making very plain that no matter what is agreed between negotiators, they will not sanction a deal that removes citizens rights.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well im certainly not a brexiteer - but to be fair who private individuals, are sole traders. who are limited companies and what countries are said companies incorporated

Actually it doesn't matter that much but for the sake of argument they're all companies.
Boris Johnson & Co. Ltd - registered company in Walthamstow, UK
Jonny Evans and Sons registered company in Belfast, UK
John O'Shea and Partners - registered company in Dublin, Ireland
Didier Deschamps & Fils SAS - registered company in Bordeaux, France
Antonio Conte SA - registered company in Milano, Italy

 

[sun_tzu]

Actually it doesn't matter that much but for the sake of argument they're all companies.
Boris Johnson & Co. Ltd - registered company in Walthamstow, UK
Jonny Evans and Sons registered company in Belfast, UK
John O'Shea and Partners - registered company in Dublin, Ireland
Didier Deschamps & Fils SAS - registered company in Bordeaux, France
Antonio Conte SA - registered company in Milano, Italy

Well if you are a Limitied company your obligation is to add VAT (to Vat applicable products and services) and collect this on behalf of HMRC (or the appropriate authority in France / Italy etc)

I run the UK arm of a Dutch company with sister companies in France, Italy, (Germany, Norway, Spain, Belgium, Sri Lanka, & Gahna) so yeah you add tha appropriate VAT to your invoice and if you turn over a small amount per year you can wait till your paid by your customer to pay the VAT, but if you turn over a large amount the VAT is due once you issue the invoice (cash accounting vs invoice accounting) - its pretty straight forward but actually what your trading status is and where you are registered is pretty fundamental for determining what VAT is due and where (and when)

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well if you are a Limitied company your obligation is to add VAT (to Vat applicable products and services) and collect this on behalf of HMRC (or the appropriate authority in France / Italy etc)

I run the UK arm of a Dutch company with sister companies in France, Italy, (Germany, Norway, Spain, Belgium, Sri Lanka, & Gahna) so yeah you add tha appropriate VAT to your invoice and if you turn over a small amount per year you can wait till your paid by your customer to pay the VAT, but if you turn over a large amount the VAT is due once you issue the invoice (cash accounting vs invoice accounting) - its pretty straight forward but actually what your trading status is and where you are registered is pretty fundamental for determining what VAT is due and where (and when)

Well yes, but that's why I said a lorry load because the value will take you over the minimum - I've been trading worldwide since the 80s in a similar set up to yours. The question is for those who think an open border can work after having left the customs union and single market.

 

[I Believe]

this is not a subject to wrap in your ignorance.

Oh dear we are back to the personal bluster and denigration again are we, you have learned nothing have you?

Whether you, or I, or the EU, or Britain, or anybody else likes it, the problems in Ireland, including borders, will ultimately only be solved by the Irish, themselves no matter how much others may wish to interfere such interference will always add a dimension too many, that is likely to prolong matters, not solve them, as the present scenario demonstrates!

 

[I Believe]

I would truly love to know how "the whole of Ireland will be better off"

If you are referring to my comments you will notice I said 'probably' better off! this is based on what my Irish friends, some living in the north and some in the south, have indicated to me over a period of years.
The general feeling seemed to be "we love having visitors to this island, but we would like to manage our own affairs", as I say these are sentiments and comments expressed to me over the years, mostly in situations where little or no alcohol had been consumed!

 

[sun_tzu]

Didn't it come with an impossible-to-accept that they were still covered / protected by the jurisdiction of ECJ rather than the UK Supreme Court ? And as they continue to push for.

Who knows....Maybe the UK responded along the lines of all UK citizens resident in the EU remain covered / protected by the jurisdiction of the UK Supreme Court rather the ECJ.

Result - Both totally unrealistic so deadlock.

I believe so ECJ was an expectation of the EU - though funnily enough I dont think UK citizens in the EU could appeal decisions in europe to the UK courts... so yeah a non starter really - unless there was another offer i dont recall.
To be clear i woud be happy for us to stay in the EU - but I feel the attempts so far (from both sides) at "negotiations" have been more posturing - I blame the UK for that more than the EU though as lets be honest we are playing poker essentially and at the moment we look to have a pretty poor hand so i dont blame EU negotiators for dragging the process as its in their interest to secure the best deal for the Eu which is of course their job

 

[I Believe]

By the way I didn't apply to Mrs Merkel as she doesn't run France like she does the UK

Not for much longer, Auf Wiedersehen Frau Merkel, Es war nett, Sie Kennenzulernen!

 

[afrocentricity]

Oh dear we are back to the personal bluster and denigration again are we, you have learned nothing have you?

Whether you, or I, or the EU, or Britain, or anybody else likes it, the problems in Ireland, including borders, will ultimately only be solved by the Irish, themselves no matter how much others may wish to interfere such interference will always add a dimension too many, that is likely to prolong matters, not solve them, as the present scenario demonstrates!

It's all good you palming it off on Ireland but you're lot have created the fcukin problem. You should listen to yourself.... Christ.

 

[Massive Spanner]

If you are referring to my comments you will notice I said 'probably' better off! this is based on what my Irish friends, some living in the north and some in the south, have indicated to me over a period of years.
The general feeling seemed to be "we love having visitors to this island, but we would like to manage our own affairs", as I say these are sentiments and comments expressed to me over the years, mostly in situations where little or no alcohol had been consumed!

Oh ok, probably better off. That changes everything, except it doesn't, it's basically saying we will be better off, but adding a "probably" in front of it to cover your hole.

I don't know anyone, anyone in my life in Ireland who actually thinks we'd be better off outside the EU, or in your case, with the North outside the EU. I'd go so far as to say that anyone who genuinely thinks that things will "probably" improve between the North and South with them out of the EU is an absolute idiot.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Not for much longer, Auf Wiedersehen Frau Merkel, Es war nett, Sie Kennenzulernen!

What is really odd, is that you actually believe all the rubbish you've been brainwashed into believing, es ist unglaublich - Wahnsinn!

 

[Full bodied red]

For those that are a bit slow on the uptake on the trading aspect of the Irish Border. Once upon a time...

Mr Antonio Conte In Italy sells a lorry load of Prosecco from Milan to Dublin, lorry gets on a ferry in Cherbourg and sails to Ireland and delivers the Prosecco to John O'Shea in Dublin. A few days later Mr Jonny Evans from Belfast decides to buy the Prosecco from Mr O'Shea and the said Prosecco is delivered to Belfast across the open border.

Meanwhile Mr Boris Johnson in Walthamstow sells a lorry load of Chocolate Cake to Mr Jonny Evans in Belfast and the lorry gets on a ferry in Liverpool and delivers the said Chocolate Cake and Mr Boris Johnson also decides to buy the Prosecco that is sitting in the warehouse in Belfast and takes it back in the lorry on the ferry back to Liverpool. Mr Jonny Evans calls Mr John O'Shea and asked if he is interested in buying the Chocolate Cake he has in stock, they agree a price and the Chocolate Cake is delivered to Dublin on a lorry across the open border.

It then occurred to Mr O'Shea that he remembered someone saying that the French loved the Chocolate Cake made in Walthamstow and called his mate Didier Deschamps in Bordeaux, a deal was agreed and the Chocolate Cake was put on a lorry, shipped on a ferry and duly delivered to Mr Deschamps' warehouse in Bordeaux (where it still sits today).

Question for Brexiteers : As there are no customs checks , where and when are the VAT and Duties paid and by whom, if at all?

Great example, great question. Answer, no idea.

On the other hand, one could argue a case for an open border, whether people or goods, that any VAT / Duty becomes payable on arrival or departure from the island of Ireland, and not a politically created border.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Great example, great question. Answer, no idea.

On the other hand, one could argue a case for an open border, whether people or goods, that any VAT / Duty becomes payable on arrival or departure from the island of Ireland, and not a politically created border.

That's already been ruled out including by May ... next solution

 

[Full bodied red]

That's already been ruled out including by May ... next solution

When and why ?

 

[Adisa]

I had a bit of hope the country would take a step back once we realised where this is headed.
We seem determined to go full on, head first for this car crash.
I am just curious to know how the Tories intend to blame Labour for this nonsense.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

When and why ?

Why because why should Ireland do the UK's border controls and customs checks for them.
When - I'm sure she said it yesterday but had already said it previously

 

[I Believe]

That changes everything

Yes it does, because that's what actually I said, not what you misquoted!

I don't know anyone, anyone in my life in Ireland who actually thinks we'd be better off outside the EU, or in your case, with the North outside the EU.

Did I say that they did?

For goodness sake man read the dammed post, before sounding off, you are making yourself look silly.

I expressed a sentiment put to me over many years by my friends in Ireland. Personally for me, if they choose to live in the EU thats fine, that is the Irish determining their own future.

Northern Ireland may well have to leave the UK, in order to join the EU as a separate entity, whether they could as an independent country or have to join with the Irish Republic, I don't know, maybe the Brexit situation may open that debate. At the moment there seems to be stalemate in NI anyway, Brexit may break the log-jam.

Whichever it is it is ultimately up to the people of Ireland to determine, collectively, or possibly as two independent States within an Irish Con-Federation, or some similar overarching structure that is accepted by the EU.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Oh dear we are back to the personal bluster and denigration again are we, you have learned nothing have you?

Whether you, or I, or the EU, or Britain, or anybody else likes it, the problems in Ireland, including borders, will ultimately only be solved by the Irish, themselves no matter how much others may wish to interfere such interference will always add a dimension too many, that is likely to prolong matters, not solve them, as the present scenario demonstrates!

Not bluster. I am telling you that, as someone whose brother was actually in the Tavern in the Town when the bomb went off, your ignorance on the subject won't get us anywhere. The consequences of this are very, very real, he still suffers 40 years later, this is far too important for your nonsense, because I would not wish what we went through on anyone.

It is not the IRISH problem, they did not vote for anything, it is the UK problem, we voted for the change.

If you want to take control of the borders, you will want a border there, our only land border with another country.

If you leave it open, then you have not got control of the borders and anyone, anyone at all, can cross directly from the EU into the UK as they wish, negating the big selling point of brexit.

It is a circle you cannot square, and it is entirely a problem that was predicted and warned about pre vote. It is our problem as a country, and brexit ministers in particular, to resolve. No one elses.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I had a bit of hope the country would take a step back once we realised where this is headed.
We seem determined to go full on, head first for this car crash.
I am just curious to know how the Tories intend to blame Labour for this nonsense.

Firstly they haven't yet realised where it is heading and secondly who cares - foreigners. Thirdly, Mrs Merkel has to relinquish power over the UK at any cost.

 

[Full bodied red]

Not bluster. I am telling you that, as someone whose brother was actually in the Tavern in the Town when the bomb went off, your ignorance on the subject won't get us anywhere. The consequences of this are very, very real, he still suffers 40 years later, this is far too important for your nonsense, because I would not wish what we went through on anyone.

It is not the IRISH problem, they did not vote for anything, it is the UK problem, we voted for the change.

If you want to take control of the borders, you will want a border there, our only land border with another country.

If you leave it open, then you have not got control of the borders and anyone, anyone at all, can cross directly from the EU into the UK as they wish, negating the big selling point of brexit.

It is a circle you cannot square, and it is entirely a problem that was predicted and warned about pre vote. It is our problem as a country, and brexit ministers in particular, to resolve. No one elses.

Not wholly correct - both the British Isles and the island of Ireland have a very natural physical border to permit control of imports, exports and people.

However, if either the UK or the EU has already rejected this solution, then not too many other options are available to even negotiate about, let alone implement.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Not wholly correct - both the British Isles and the island of Ireland have a very natural physical border to permit control of imports, exports and people.

Point of order - Ireland is part of the British Isles - here's an extract from the customs paper yesterday-

The Government has made clear that the answer to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland cannot be to impose a new customs border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Not wholly correct - both the British Isles and the island of Ireland have a very natural physical border to permit control of imports, exports and people.

However, if either the UK or the EU has already rejected this solution, then not too many other options are available to even negotiate about, let alone implement.

Ireland is part of the EU. You have to stop thinking about it as a separate country. Indeed, much of Ireland's economy is built on the free movement of people, they will not put a border up between themselves and the mainland as you suggest, because simply you are asking the people of Ireland to pay for the vote you cast. It is OUR problem, and ours alone.

 

[Full bodied red]

Point of order - Ireland is part of the British Isles - here's an extract from the customs paper yesterday-

The Government has made clear that the answer to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland cannot be to impose a new customs border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

Great Britain, British Isles....Sorry....But you know what I meant....

OK....Maybe the UK has a very cunning plan, but I doubt it.

Ireland is part of the EU. You have to stop thinking about it as a separate country. Indeed, much of Ireland's economy is built on the free movement of people, they will not put a border up between themselves and the mainland as you suggest, because simply you are asking the people of Ireland to pay for the vote you cast. It is OUR problem, and ours alone.

Not too sure what you mean there....

 

[sullydnl]

Kinda funny that people who wanted their country to take back control of their borders from the EU are now happy to palm off their border problem on Ireland, who are actually part of the EU.

 

[JPRouve]

Point of order - Ireland is part of the British Isles - here's an extract from the customs paper yesterday-

The Government has made clear that the answer to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland cannot be to impose a new customs border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

They are a bit strange, they basically propose no hard border between NI and Ireland, freedom to cross for every EU and UK citizens, and no customs border between NI and Great Britain while being under two different jurisdictions. So the idea is to create and maintain a void.

I'm maybe completely wrong but it looks like they are purposely making Brexit impossible.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Great Britain, British Isles....Sorry....But you know what I meant....

OK....Maybe the UK has a very cunning plan, but I doubt it

I doubt it too and tbf I have no idea what the solution could be either. But that was the point brought up long before the referendum , no-one had an answer in the months leading up to the referendum and no-one has since then either - so what happens, something has to happen - disregarding the rights or wrongs of Brexit , there are only 2 possibilities - either the UK stays in the EU or it keeps FoM and remains in the customs union. Any other possibilities on a postcard to Farage or Johnson

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Not too sure what you mean there....

Your suggestion seemed to be to put a border around the entire island, both Ireland itself and NI, and use that as break for customs, free movement etc. That would cost Ireland millions to implement, and given much of their economy is by hosting multinationals based on free movement, billions in their economy.

They didn't vote for brexit, you did, why should they pay for it?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

They are a bit strange, they basically propose no hard border between NI and Ireland, freedom to cross for every EU and UK citizens, and no customs border between NI and Great Britain while being under two different jurisdictions. So the idea is to create and maintain a void.

I'm maybe completely wrong but it looks like they are purposely making Brexit impossible.

But what choice is there. In the real world Brexit is practically an impossibility. Far more complicated than putting an X in a box on a ballot paper.

 

[Full bodied red]

Your suggestion seemed to be to put a border around the entire island, both Ireland itself and NI, and use that as break for customs, free movement etc. That would cost Ireland millions to implement, and given much of their economy is by hosting multinationals based on free movement, billions in their economy.

They didn't vote for brexit, you did, why should they pay for it?

Actually, they'd be doing it on behalf of the EU who want a Hard Border, not on behalf of the UK who don't want a Hard Border between the UK and Ireland, while I'm fairly sure the UK would not expect the EU or Ireland to have paid for the border controls around NI.

By the way - I didn't vote at all.....

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Actually, they'd be doing it on behalf of the EU who want a Hard Border, not on behalf of the UK who don't want a Hard Border between the UK and Ireland, while I'm fairly sure the UK would not expect the EU or Ireland to have paid for the border controls around NI.

By the way - I didn't vote at all.....

Again, neither the EU nor Ireland voted for, chose, or desired any of this. The EU do not want a hard border, but the UK removing itself from the single market means there HAS to be a hard border. It is our brexit causing this, no one else.

I fear until people can actually accept responsibility for what brexit means, this is just going nowhere. At some point, its time to stop blaming the bogeyman and take some responsibility.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Actually, they'd be doing it on behalf of the EU who want a Hard Border, not on behalf of the UK who don't want a Hard Border between the UK and Ireland, while I'm fairly sure the UK would not expect the EU or Ireland to have paid for the border controls around NI.

By the way - I didn't vote at all.....

The UK want a hard border between the UK and the EU - Ireland is in the EU - ergo... or we forget all this happened and there's no need for a hard border

 

[JPRouve]

But what choice is there. In the real world Brexit is practically an impossibility. Far more complicated than putting an X in a box on a ballot paper.

You are wrong in the real world Brexit is possible but its form is very limited and it's not something that the UK or the EU want. One thing that some brexiters in this thread seem to have missed is that there is a border between NI and Ireland, these are two different countries but one thing makes that border work the way it does and that's the EU Custom Union. The EU isn't asking for a hard border, the hard border has been reinstated the second the UK decided to leave the Custom Union.

 

[I Believe]

this is far too important for your nonsense

I have great sympathy with your brother and the long term effects of what he suffered, but if you want to swap stories on injuries, try these, I lost two relatives in bomb blasts in 1970's in NI and 40 years on we still miss them, their children and their grandchildren, miss them. The daughter of man who worked for me for ten years, lost her leg as a result of a bomb blast on mainland UK, all these connected to the issues in NI. Please don't talk to me about ignorance on these matters, you my friend are the one showing ignorance.

The overall 'Irish' situation goes back centuries

The relatively modern day (up to the Good Friday agreement) 'troubles' lasted almost a half a century.

The people of Ireland north and south have lived with and negotiated around a border between the British Provinces in the North of Ireland and the Irish State in the south for years and will continue to do so, I suspect, whatever the EU and Britain agree on.

Brexit does present problems because of Britain withdrawing from EU, but anyone who thinks the issues in the Island of Ireland had been soley about borders and had been settled already, is engaging in denial.

Brexit does offer an opportunity for all involved to bring about real change, since it seems most people on the Island would a want to be part of the EU, then that is presumably where matters that could lead to a solution could be focused. Overall the issues are not just a question of borders, its much bigger than that and you do it a disservice by sounding as though Britain's withdrawal from the EU is the top and bottom of the problem!