What Irish wish is anyone obliging? Ireland is overwhelmingly against all of this.
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What Irish wish is anyone obliging? Ireland is overwhelmingly against all of this.
Thats ok, eu seems like it wants uk to impose borders. Nice
Isn't that a cop out from you? To make it simple they literally offer to change nothing for both sides coming to or leaving the EU, that's FOM for you. They really think that you are imbeciles.
It actually seems sensible, the only problem is that when you read it you quickly realize that they are not really leaving the EU. FOM is still in place and they propose to mirror the EU custom
The EU, didn't want this, and of course the EU doesn't want a responsibility that does not correspond them. UK generated the problem of the borders. Not wanting the responsibilities of what someone else created it does not mean that wants that the other part pays for his responsibilities. Is simply...I don't want to eat your shit. If Irish from EU should be pissed, is at UK, that some people has a weir concept of what NOT WANTING FoM means, or it only works for the FoM that you are interested in?
Against all of what ??
Against the UK leaving the EU ?
Or against an EU imposed hard border ?
Both and then some, especially given the two are directly linked.
UK leaving the EU - might be hard and harsh on the Republic, but I don't think too many UK voters were thinking about the effects on the Republic when they were asked if they wanted to REMAIN or LEAVE. Seems that the EU have forgotten the shared history and benefits to Irish and UK citizens coming from The Ireland Act 1949 which is still UK Law, and therefore will take precedence over EU Law post-Brexit as far as the UK is concerned.
The Hard Border - if the Republic doesn't want a Hard Border, speak up to the EU....Shout it loud and clear to the EU....Tell the Taosich to mediate instead of sitting on his arse and and being stubborn....On the other hand, if the Republic do want a Hard Border, just put one up yourselves - I'm sure the EU will pay for it.
The world at large: "If the UK votes for Brexit, it will likely mean a hard border for Northern Ireland"
Ireland: "That sounds terrible, please don't vote for Brexit!"
UK: "We'll figure out some solution for the border when the time comes, we're voting for Brexit!"
Ireland: "Oh no this will be a disaster for everybody! Don't do it!"
UK: "Nah, we'll figure something out."
The world at large: "Now that the UK has voted for Brexit, it will likely mean a hard border for Northern Ireland"
Ireland: "Oh noes! Okay UK, what's your idea?"
UK: "........"
Ireland: "......."
UK "......dunno, s'not our fault, the EU did it...."
Ireland: *weeps*
End scene.
So what's your solution / preference ?
A Hard Border to ' stay onside ' with the EU ?
And open border to keep the island ' sort of ' together ?
A Hard Border to ' stay onside ' with the EU ?
And open border to keep the island ' sort of ' together ?
You do realize that it's on the UK, an open border can only exist if you follow EU's rules and are under EU's jurisdictions. You still don't understand what you did?
Accede to all of our demands and disregard the spirit of your referendum; EU speak for 'ball in your court'. These past months have done nothing to engender a feeling of buyer's remorse, that's for sure.
Considering how important it is to them, how about they release an itemised list of our dues and put a precise number on it.
Considering how important it is to them, how about they release an itemised list of our dues and put a precise number on it.
These were the Irish Taoiseach's comments on the border earlier in the year:
Ireland doesn't want a hard border, which is why it was against Brexit.
However, Ireland will be slow to blame the EU for the direct consequences of a decision made by the UK. Especially when the Irish goverment clearly and repeatedly flagged this potentially dire outcome to the UK prior to the vote. This weird logic where the EU are to blame for things the UK decided to do only really carries within the UK.
"If anyone is angry, it should be us.”
“What we’re not going to do is to design a border for the Brexiteers because they’re the ones who want a border.
“It’s up to them to say what it is, say how it would work and first of all convince their own people, their own voters that this is actually a good idea.
“Currently there is no economic border. There hasn’t been an economic border since 1992. As far as this government is concerned there shouldn’t be an economic border. We don’t want one.
“It’s the United Kingdom, it’s Britain that has decided to leave and if they want to put forward smart solutions, technological solutions for borders of the future and all of that that’s up to them.
“We’re not going to be doing that work for them because we don’t think there should be an economic border at all. That is our position.
“It’s our position in negotiations with the British Government and it’s the very clear position that we have when we engage with the task force that is negotiating on our behalf with the United Kingdom.
“We do not think it is in the interests of our country. We do not think it’s in the interests of Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom that there should be an economic border between our two countries or on our island and we’re not going to be helping them to design some sort of border that we don’t believe should exist in the first place.
“So let them put forward their proposals as to how they think a border should operate and then we’ll ask them if they really think this is such a good idea because I think it will have a very severe impact on their economy if they decide to go down that route.”
“What we’re not going to do is to design a border for the Brexiteers because they’re the ones who want a border.
“It’s up to them to say what it is, say how it would work and first of all convince their own people, their own voters that this is actually a good idea.
“Currently there is no economic border. There hasn’t been an economic border since 1992. As far as this government is concerned there shouldn’t be an economic border. We don’t want one.
“It’s the United Kingdom, it’s Britain that has decided to leave and if they want to put forward smart solutions, technological solutions for borders of the future and all of that that’s up to them.
“We’re not going to be doing that work for them because we don’t think there should be an economic border at all. That is our position.
“It’s our position in negotiations with the British Government and it’s the very clear position that we have when we engage with the task force that is negotiating on our behalf with the United Kingdom.
“We do not think it is in the interests of our country. We do not think it’s in the interests of Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom that there should be an economic border between our two countries or on our island and we’re not going to be helping them to design some sort of border that we don’t believe should exist in the first place.
“So let them put forward their proposals as to how they think a border should operate and then we’ll ask them if they really think this is such a good idea because I think it will have a very severe impact on their economy if they decide to go down that route.”
Ireland doesn't want a hard border, which is why it was against Brexit.
However, Ireland will be slow to blame the EU for the direct consequences of a decision made by the UK. Especially when the Irish goverment clearly and repeatedly flagged this potentially dire outcome to the UK prior to the vote. This weird logic where the EU are to blame for things the UK decided to do only really carries within the UK.
The point of leaving would be that we aren't and don't want to be anymore though wouldn't it.
The Irish want to keep the border open they are.
The EU can be held accountable for the rules the EU sets though can't it?
It is the EU's rules that will prohibit the border being the way the UK and Ireland would prefer it to be.
Now the UK has decided to leave, the EU can hold to its rules on external borders given the changed circumstances or not. Let's not pretend that isn't a choice.
The UK created this mess and it now expects the EU to bend the rules and sort this out. Sweet.
May i remind you that this issue wouldnt even be a problem if the UK left the EU but stayed in the customs union. Unfortunately none of the options (EU, EEA, Customs Union etc) were deemed good enough for the UK. So for once just take your own responsibility and admit you dont care about the Irish instead of blaming the EU
I know that it's the point and you are going to find me one country that has open borders with a country without following common rules. The entire problem here is that you don't want to follow common rules, you want to make your own and then blame the EU.
The situation is in itself very simple, the moment you decided to leave the EU and the Custom Union you recreated the border, that was automatic for the simple reason that you created two areas with two jurisdictions. Now the question is how do you intend to control that border, that you created. When you have an answer to that then we can discuss about a deal that will hopefully make the border useless.
What is asked here is to create a clear environment in case of absence of deal before the day of Brexit, this question can not influence future negotiations.
Its just another example of eu shirking, highlight a problem without offering a suggested solution. The fact the issue has arisen cos of the vote is irrelevant.
this
Jesus Christ, you actually have the cheek to accuse them of 'shirking' in the same paragraph where you shirk your own responsibility? That'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
Can we just remember for a second that this isn't some issue that only hurts the Irish? If a hard border leads to renewed violence then its mostly going to be Northern Irish citizens getting killed, not southern Irish citizens.
They shirk every difficult issue. Thats more a fact than an opinion.
Seems to me that the UK does care about what's best for both Irelands.
Silly them to think that the EU might care as well.
Why would that be ?
Tactics....Designed to make it as difficult as possible for the UK.
EU say they won't discuss anything else until agreement on a leaving / divorce settlement, but, of course, won't or can't provide an itemised bill.
Seems absolutely obvious that the EU wants to cut all ties with the UK on BREXIT day and they are using the refusal to provide the leaving / divorce settlementl as their main weapon
Davis et al are too polite / desperate to actually come out and say that, but it's probably getting near the time when the UK should perhaps put the ball back in the EU's court and say that the UK has already agreed to pay what's correct and reaonable, which it has, but he can't discuss anything else ( ECJ, FoM, Transition Period, Irish Border ) till he's seen the bill. Certainly, it's time for the UK to grow a pair.
Look up "The Troubles" and you'll see why.
There's no religious divide in the south.
We're long past those days though so I doubt we'll see killings, somehow.
I am aware of Westminster’s historical relationship with the Irish. No one in Europe had such sort of relationship with the country and its people and tbf I doubt that anyone would want to have that either. You only have to hear Mr Brexit himself on LBC to understand the Brexiters love towards Ireland. In his opinion, Ireland should either leave the EU and trust its historical friendship with the UK for a great trade deal or else the UK should consider kicking Northern Ireland out of the UK.
On a serious note it was the UK who left Europe (and Ireland) not viceversa. It was the UK who refused any alternative plan (EEA, Customs union etc) which would have kept the status quo between the UK and the Republic of Ireland not the EU. What the EU is halting any trade deal negotiations with the UK up until the latter decides to gets serious on the matter and come out with viable solutions.
So seriously stop blaming the EU especially since you’re the ones who forced a change in relationship between Europe (including Ireland) and the UK and you’re the ones who refused any available option to that relationship.
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To think that Brexiteers once said that the EU would be too desperate to sell prosecco and BMWs to the UK market to allow that to happen. I guess its time for some solid reality check. You're not that important to Europe (and probably the US and India) as Brexiteers thought.
I agree with most you've said especially the two in bold.
Having said that, I strongly believe that the UK will get its transitional period IF it agrees to sort the famous three problems (EU citizens rights, the Irish border issue and paying the bill) and agrees to obey EU laws up until the end of that transition period. I also believe that the UK will end up taking that option too. It really has no choice on the matter.
Let's take a look at things that happened this year from the BBC's handy timeline..
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-10866072
That's only 2 months. I've long believed that the BBC and other news channels have been deliberately downplaying trouble in Northern Ireland to help keep the peace process on track (I'm not saying thats a bad thing btw). Last time I went to NI, the local radio was reporting 2 people shot in the previous 24 hours, and I'd heard nothing about it on national news.
Northern Ireland is obviously a long way from the warzone it used to be, but its equally not the peaceful, fully healed place some people seem to think it is now. Sticking a hard border up could lead to devastating consequences which is why its such a major issue and one of the first items in the negotiations.
As @Massive Spanner points out, the divide is mainly in the north not the south, so thats where you'll see the vast majority of the violence. Having fixed border crossing points also pretty much guarantees that they'll be a major target.
Quite so Paul and it seems to be giving you that itch you can't scratch because they don't seem concerned - very annoying isn't it, but hey don't worry yourself, you're nice and tucked up, safe in the cosy EU land bed, you can have your duvet-days without a care in the world, Mama Merkel will look after you, don't worry... be happy?
This thread is worth a read. And the guy writing works for “The Leave Alliance”. He wanted Brexit but is horrified about the balls up the Tories are making of the implementation. In a way it’s good to see that not all Brexiters have their heads in the sand but it’s shocking to hear how deep the government (and some people in this thread) have buried theirs.
This is so obvious.
Basically, the EU can't make it easy allow and a favourable divorce for the UK. If they do, all other EU nations would line up and demand similar. That would be a trigger for EU to cease existence in its present format.
Basically, the EU can't make it easy allow and a favourable divorce for the UK. If they do, all other EU nations would line up and demand similar. That would be a trigger for EU to cease existence in its present format.
I think what's blatantly obvious is that nobody ever expected it to go through, all Tories included. I doubt even Boris or Farage thought they had any hope either. It's pretty evident in how they have had absolutely no idea what to do since it happened.
Theresa should've stuck with her "Brexit means Brexit" speech, it was probably still fecking better with what they've done since.
So you're saying you now finally understand that if this all goes wrong its the UK not the EU who are fecked? And can you extend that chain of logic onto how it might effect the negotiating positions of each party?
Yer man’s timeline is an interesting read. Here’s another spot on observation.
The whole thing has been like watching an agonising slo mo car crash, with Maybot paralysed in the headlights and BoJo and his chums waiting to feast on her corpse. It’s all about tory wankers doing what’s best for their own careers without a moment’s thought about what is best for British citizens.
Major target? for who, for what purpose?
It would seem the Republicans in NI long since gave up the idea they could bomb the province into a United Ireland and the Unionists realise that the Republican ideal of a United Ireland isn't going to go away.
Brexit will force a new look at things sure, but ultimately it won't be Brussels or London that solve the problem, it will be Dublin and Belfast and the whole of Ireland will probably be better off for it!
Not too many, to be fair....But there are some whose citizens might be tempted but whose politiocos don't feel the same....
Agree 101%.
Cameron and the Tories should have at least had an outline plan, but politicians and arrogance are inseperable.
Man you really haven't a fecking clue do you.
Not at all I'm saying Paul can rest easy, the decisions in the EU will be taken for him, the only possible problem might be if the deal on nationals falls through, then perhaps, just perhaps he needs to look to his passport? However, as I say, Mrs Merkel has promised... well what exactly has she promised to Brits living in the EU? We know Theresa has offered to safeguard the rights of EU nationals living and working in Britain, but not heard much about the proposed reciprocal arrangements from Frau Merkel!.
That's like selling your tickets for a United game and then blaming the club for not letting you in to watch the match. Who ever told you that the rest of Europe would change the way it works to suit the UK?
Spot on FBR!
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During the general election campaign just gone, the UDF assassinated a man in front of his 3 year old in a supermarket car park. Eileen, the DUP leader and part of may's government, met him two days later, not to reprimand him for the violence, she has admitted in an interview she did not bring it up, because her party is the political wing of the UDF.
You seem unaware, but the UDF may not have received the same publicity as the IRA, as they were not bombing the mainland, but they were responsible for the single worst bombing throughout the troubles. We isolate NI in any way, and they will be bombing on the mainland itself.
The idea that its all gone away is risible, and take it from someone who has a brother who, to this day, suffers from the aftermath of being caught in the Birmingham bombings, this is not a subject to wrap in your ignorance.