Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[FlawlessThaw]

Do you honestly think that the majority of people who voted, either way, did so on a whim, that if the sun is shinning next week, I'll vote the opposite way? No of course not, but you believe those voting leave did, those voting remain, stood solid and knowledgeable and would vote the same way again and again, and again, until everyone shared their views.

Not majority but given the small margins in the vote, certainly wouldn't surprise me if a 1/5 of voters did so on a whim. That would have had a major impact on the overall referendum. Again given the small margins, the will of the people argument isn't a great one. I certainly would never convict a man of guilt if I was about 52% sure.

You can say the majority of the people voted leave and that's why it should happen. But there's no full will of the people, we are pretty divided down the middle.

 

[Kentonio]

You can say the majority of the people voted leave and that's why it should happen. But there's no full will of the people, we are pretty divided down the middle.

Yep, nothing says 'Bright new future for Britain!' more than an issue which splits the country almost exactly down the middle and leaves both halves increasingly isolated from the other.

 

[I Believe]

But the southern Irish will decide they/we want to stay in the EU.

So what then?

Depends what you mean by the they/we? The Irish State is already a member of the EU and will have voted to stay in yes, as far as we know the majority in the north voted the same way so 'ipso facto', the Island of Ireland has a majority in favour of being part of the EU.

So the question now is not about Brexit as such, which has been the catalyst, its about how can the majority of people on the Island of Ireland achieve their collective majority wish to be part of the EU?

I don't know how that would go, but it would be up to Dublin and Belfast to sort it out between them, then it would be up to Britain and/or the EU, to risk saying No!

 

[Massive Spanner]

Depends what you mean by the they/we? The Irish State is already a member of the EU and will have voted to stay in yes, as far as we know the majority in the north voted the same way so 'ipso facto', the Island of Ireland has a majority in favour of being part of the EU.

So the question now is not about Brexit as such, which has been the catalyst, its about how can the majority of people on the Island of Ireland achieve their collective majority wish to be part of the EU?

I don't know how that would go, but it would be up to Dublin and Belfast to sort it out between them, then it would be up to Britain and/or the EU, to risk saying No!

You're right, you don't, none of us do. So feck knows how you/your friends can claim we'd probably be better off sorting it out ourselves, or how that could ever even conceivably happen.

There's also arguably the most important point here, Sinn Fein and the DUP hate Fianna Gael/Fail, and vice versa. Imagine them negotiating a border or unified Ireland or whatnot, imagine our countries voting on them? It'd be nothing short of a disaster.

This is Britain's mess and they need to fix it.

 

[I Believe]

But of course you think the first one is all that matters, you won on a platform of nationalism, xenophobia and rank dishonesty and now you're too scared to face the consequences that a second referendum would hammer home.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, is the red mist clearing now?

Come on mate just listen to yourself... are you stamping your feet and pulling faces as well... going to get us 'leavers' at playtime... eh?

 

[Kentonio]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, is the red mist clearing now?

Come on mate just listen to yourself... are you stamping your feet and pulling faces as well... going to get us 'leavers' at playtime... eh?

Typical playschool level nonsense. It's like trying to have a serious debate with a toddler.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Talking to Brexiters is like talking to a naughty child. You warn them not to do something but do they listen. Then they start showing off, eventually they learn the hard way but it could have all been avoided.

 

[MoskvaRed]

As predicted. The UK will now toy around the idea of joining NAFTA

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...e-deal-telegraph-newspaper-idUSKBN1CF18K?il=0

This has been a long-term goal of the Tory far right. Although quite how they sell this idea when their good friend Donald spent a large part of his election campaign slagging off NAFTA and pinning it on Clinton, I'm not sure.

 

[JPRouve]

This has been a long-term goal of the Tory far right. Although quite how they sell this idea when their good friend Donald spent a large part of his election campaign slagging off NAFTA and pinning it on Clinton, I'm not sure.

Simple. The Anglosphere, that's how they sell it.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

That's like selling your tickets for a United game and then blaming the club for not letting you in to watch the match. Who ever told you that the rest of Europe would change the way it works to suit the UK?

Oh dear, another piss poor self-serving and loaded analogy. Just what the thread needed.

The EU changes its rules all the time when it wants to, if it doesn't want to for Ireland's sake then it doesn't have to but that is still a choice.

 

[JPRouve]

Oh dear, another piss poor self-serving and loaded analogy. Just what the thread needed.

The EU changes its rules all the time when it wants to, if it doesn't want to for Ireland's sake then it doesn't have to but that is still a choice.

Which rule should the EU change exactly? It's not a rule that is causing problem here.

 

[I Believe]

So feck knows how you/your friends can claim we'd probably be better off sorting it out ourselves

The overall basis for my friends thinking seems to be two fold; one they think without a third party (some say bogeymen) to hide behind and hence to blame when things do/or don't work out, both the North and South would have to face their respective citizens head-on.

They also seem to think,(but there is less of a consensus among my friends on this) that without subsidies (some of my friends refer to these as handouts... always, causes an argument that one!), be it from Britain and/or the EU the whole of Ireland would have to face up to the fact that its major export is Irish men and women, it would seem they believe the Island overall still suffers from excess migration, not as bad as it was, but still puts its future in doubt, birth rates etc.... who knows they might welcome some of Mrs Merkel's immigrants?

It'd be nothing short of a disaster.

I can't argue with you on that one, I don't personally know however, despite the optimism of some of my friends, there are others that would definitely agree with that sentiment.

This is Britain's mess and they need to fix it.

My friends would agree the whole issue of a divided Island of Ireland is Britain's fault, going right back to the importing of 1000 Scottish Crofters and their families, the Pail etc; however they believe the time has come for the Irish to tell everyone else to feck off and we will sort it ourselves... probably a pipe dream?

 

[vidic blood & sand]

No, what is pathetic is constantly rallying around a position of 'the will of the people is all that matters!' and then refusing to allow those same people to express their views again even in the face of a constantly changing situation and vast amounts of new data.

The majority of people just want to get on with it, which is what we should be doing.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Talking to Brexiters is like talking to a naughty child. You warn them not to do something but do they listen. Then they start showing off, eventually they learn the hard way but it could have all been avoided.

Well we think all remainers are ignorant of what is right for the country. Thank God for democracy. You lost, so get over it.

 

[Massive Spanner]

The overall basis for my friends thinking seems to be two fold; one they think without a third party (some say bogeymen) to hide behind and hence to to blame when things do/or don't work out, both the North and South would have to face their respective citizens head-on.

They also seem to think,(but there is less of a consensus among my friends on this) that without subsidies (some of my friends refer to these as handouts... always, causes an argument that one!), be it from Britain and/or the EU the whole of Ireland would have to face up to the fact that its major export is Irish men and women, it would seem they believe the Island overall still suffers from excess migration, not as bad as it was, but still puts its future in doubt, birth rates etc.... who knows they might welcome some of Mrs Merkel's immigrants?


I can't argue with you on that one, I don't personally know however, despite the optimism of some of my friends, there are others that would definitely agree with that sentiment.




My friends would agree the whole issue of a divided Island of Ireland is Britain's fault, going right back to the importing of 1000 Scottish Crofters and their families, the Pail etc; however they believe the time has come for the Irish to tell everyone else to feck off and we will sort it ourselves... probably a pipe dream?

Ireland has returned to net immigration for the first time since the recession and that will likely only grow as the recovery continues. Considering the UK is also our biggest emigration destination by far then it'll get even lower after Brexit, although I can definitely see the UK striking a deal for Irish citizens because we do provide a lot of staff to the NHS! We also have the highest birth rates in Europe. So, your friends are wrong there.

Ireland will not tell the EU to "feck off". We like the EU, we've become an incredibly prosperous country in the EU. We rely on the EU for a lot of things - education, jobs, educated expats. Actually all that applies to Britain, too, apart from the liking the EU part. We will put the EU first and the UK (including NI) second, always, because we're not idiots (mostly).

 

[I Believe]

Typical playschool level nonsense. It's like trying to have a serious debate with a toddler.

I couldn't have put it better myself... oh I just did!

 

[sullydnl]

Oh dear, another piss poor self-serving and loaded analogy. Just what the thread needed.

The EU changes its rules all the time when it wants to, if it doesn't want to for Ireland's sake then it doesn't have to but that is still a choice.

What do you expect the EU to do to create a functioning open border between themselves and the UK in this situation given what the UK actually wants from brexit?

As far as I can see you're not asking them to change a rule, you're askìng them to change how borders fundamentally work. Which from Ireland's point of view makes the UK the one causing the problem, not the EU.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well we think all remainers are ignorant of what is right for the country. Thank God for democracy. You lost, so get over it.

I didn't lose anything but as you "won" presumably those who voted remain "won" as well unless you're planning to divide the country into two, the problem is nobody knows what they were lucky enough to win

 

[Kentonio]

The majority of people just want to get on with it, which is what we should be doing.

Get on with what exactly? If it's shown that 'getting on with it' is going to result in a recession, then you still think you have a majority in favour?

 

[MoskvaRed]

The majority of people just want to get on with it, which is what we should be doing.

Get on with what? That's the issue - people were not voting for Party A with its manifesto or Party B with its slightly different manifesto. We know what the status quo is but,15 months on, no one has been able to demonstrate what Brexit actually involves.

 

[I Believe]

So, your friends are wrong there

Thanks, I will tell them that, but before we start the drinking sessions!

We like the EU

Yes, that's quite clear from the vote, even my two friends from the north would agree with that, its seems its just this business of how to get the whole of the Island of Ireland into the EU. without the pesky British?

Who knows, play your cards right and Brexit could be key that undoes the lock? Or the sword that slices through the Gordian Knot!

 

[I Believe]

You lost, so get over it.

Somehow I don't think so, the remoaners are becoming like my missus, keep nagging and nagging... wait till they start the ..'I've a got a headache.. routine!

 

[vidic blood & sand]

the problem is nobody knows what they were lucky enough to win

So why is the child naughty if you think nobody knows?

Get on with what exactly? If it's shown that 'getting on with it' is going to result in a recession, then you still think you have a majority in favour?

There's no evidence to suggest that leaving the EU will end in recession. Recessions are a part of life, and the economical cycle. If you want to blame the next one on brexit, fine.

 

[The Outsider]

Reading today that the Civil Service are planning for No Deal, not because that will necessarily happen yet because it makes sense in light of the current impasse. They have recruited thousands of staff to enable the UK to move forward quickly if this occurs.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Somehow I don't think so, the remoaners are becoming like my missus, keep nagging and nagging... wait till they start the ..'I've a got a headache.. routine!

They are either too blind to see that the EU is heading towards a United States of Europe, or they want it. How in the world they can't understand the goals and visions of the EU, is amazing to me.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So why is the child naughty if you think nobody knows?



There's no evidence to suggest that leaving the EU will end in recession. Recessions are a part of life, and the economical cycle. If you want to blame the next one on brexit, fine.

If the Uk leaves the EU without a deal then the Uk will be in recession but the rest of Europe won't be - there's the difference, if there's a worldwide recession it applies to everyone, not just one country. As I said the only way to prove we were right is for the Uk to fall out of the EU and the obvious consequences to happen, the remainers don't want that to happen but the leavers won't listen

 

[I Believe]

They are either too blind to see that the EU is heading towards a United States of Europe, or they want it. How in the world they can't understand the goals and visions of the EU, is amazing to me.

I suspect the majority of remoaners probably do want that outcome, they just pretend to 'not see'

What they don't seem to grasp is that unless Britain dumps the pound Sterling and becomes part of the euro-zone countries (24 countries) within the EU, if we stay in the club we will constantly go where we are pushed inside the EU, perpetual second division status, no chance of promotion.

I think there are a small group of other countries within the EU, Denmark's one, who still retain their own currency outside the Euro zone, but the size of their markets are low compared to Britain's.

If we wanted to be a lead player in the EU we should have dumped the pound and become part of the euro-zone, years ago, but now the euro takes its value from the German economy's influence in the EU, all EU economic decisions in the future will be taken on how it affects the euro, not the pound, so we are sat waiting for the scraps from the table. Macron in France is desperate for further integration because he has to make the French economy work properly and he needs Mrs Merkel's help.

The majority of people in this country might want to be part of a common market yes, but not on track towards a super state, unfortunately the EU won't accept that premise, so its a parting of the waves. Amicably if possible, but that doesn't look on now, so lets get out now, and no tipping the waiter!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I suspect the majority of remoaners probably do want that outcome, they just pretend to 'not see'

What they don't seem to grasp is that unless Britain dumps the pound Sterling and becomes part of the euro-zone countries (24 countries) within the EU, if we stay in the club we will constantly go where we are pushed inside the EU, perpetual second division status, no chance of promotion.

I think there are a small group of other countries within the EU, Denmark's one, who still retain their own currency outside the Euro zone, but the size of their markets are low compared to Britain's.

If we wanted to be a lead player in the EU we should have dumped the pound and become part of the euro-zone, years ago, but now the euro takes its value from the German economy's influence in the EU, all EU economic decisions in the future will be taken on how it affects the euro, not the pound, so we are sat waiting for the scraps from the table. Macron in France is desperate for further integration because he has to make the French economy work properly and he needs Mrs Merkel's help.

The majority of people in this country might want to be part of a common market yes, but not on track towards a super state, unfortunately the EU won't accept that premise, so its a parting of the waves. Amicably if possible, but that doesn't look on now, so lets get out now, and no tipping the waiter!

Who's been telling you porkies this time, is it Farage, Johnson, Daily Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, Metro, Star , wow, forgotten how many RW newspapers there are.

 

[I Believe]

Who's been telling you porkies this time, is it Farage, Johnson, Daily Mail, Express, Sun, Telegraph, Metro, Star , wow, forgotten how many RW newspapers there are.

Hi Paul, yes of course we're all out of step except you, brilliant, 'worth the entrance fee alone', as someone once said about George Best

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Hi Paul, yes of course we're all out of step except you, brilliant, 'worth the entrance fee alone', as someone said about George Best

Who's the all

 

[I Believe]

Who's the all

Anyone who disagrees with you... think you mentioned a few yourself including national papers

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Anyone who disagrees with you... think you mentioned a few yourself including national papers

All except me seems to suggest everyone apart from me. I think you may find that a very small part of those who voted to leave belong to the tin foil hat brigade , think the main reason was a bit more sinister.

 

[I Believe]

They have recruited thousands of staff to enable the UK to move forward quickly if this occurs.

Yes if you listen to the remoaners, these people will be recruited to put Britain on rollers and roll us out into the North Sea, or is the North Atlantic?

 

[I Believe]

I think you may find that a very small part of those who voted to leave belong to the tin foil hat brigade ,

And a very large number of these tin-foil hat wearers also voted to remain, not because they agreed with you, but because they thought the scenario the chancellor conjured up, the 'plagues of locust' and the 'sacrifice of the first born', etc. would take place on the 24th June, but some enterprising ones even had their cameras out ready to get the first selfies!

 

[Kentonio]

There's no evidence to suggest that leaving the EU will end in recession. Recessions are a part of life, and the economical cycle. If you want to blame the next one on brexit, fine.

Even the editor of the Leave campaign website now admits that the current process will lead to recession and possibly a depression.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

And a very large number of these tin-foil hat wearers also voted to remain, not because they agreed with you, but because they thought the scenario the chancellor conjured up, the 'plagues of locust' and the 'sacrifice of the first born', etc. would take place on the 24th June, but some enterprising ones even had their cameras out ready to get the first selfies!

Sounds very likely but no-one on here said that - just the gradual economic collapse which inevitably will happen with no deal - anyway seems Tusk has urged the UK to get a move on or if there are no advances in the talks by the end of the year the EU will also start also envisaging a no deal scenario and plan in that sense in the New Year even though the UK are said to be already planning that way.

Apparently there are no discussions tomorrow as the UK team seem to be unavailable, perhaps Vidic should ask them to get a move on. Tick tock - only two more sessions after Thursday this year.

 

[I Believe]

if there are no advances in the talks by the end of the year the EU will also start also envisaging a no deal scenario and plan in that sense in the New Year even though the UK are said to be already planning that way.

Tusk's first plan will be to figure out how to fill the hole in EU current budgets up to 2020, i.e. no deal no payments, remember nothings agreed until every thing is agreed. Just to be awkward if it were me I would also say we are not even going to pay next years contribution, what will they do then... threaten to throw us out of the EU?

You would think the EU would want to 'string us' along, at least until we had coughed up the current budget contributions, but looks like Theresa's using the strategy that Henry Kissinger once espoused (or he supposedly attributed it to the Chinese approach) in tough negotiations give in on the first point, then hold firm on everything else.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Tusk's first plan will be to figure out how to fill the hole in EU current budgets up to 2020, i.e. no deal no payments, remember nothings agreed until every thing is agreed. Just to be awkward if it were me I would also say we are not even going to pay next years contribution, what will they do then... threaten to throw us out of the EU?

You would think the EU would want to 'string us' along, at least until we had coughed up the current budget contributions, but looks like Theresa's using the strategy that Henry Kissinger once espoused (or he supposedly attributed it to the Chinese approach) in tough negotiations give in on the first point, then hold firm on everything else.

This is exactly why no-one trusts the UK - this is exactly why you wouldn't trust the Uk courts to handle disputes - the whole world is looking at the UK and if they behaved like this getting deals with anyone will be very difficult let alone the EU. But £10bn is not going to really trouble the EU is it - being cast off into the wilderness might have some downside for the UK

 

[Sweet Square]

God we are so fecked

 

[Kentonio]

Tusk's first plan will be to figure out how to fill the hole in EU current budgets up to 2020, i.e. no deal no payments, remember nothings agreed until every thing is agreed. Just to be awkward if it were me I would also say we are not even going to pay next years contribution, what will they do then... threaten to throw us out of the EU?

You would think the EU would want to 'string us' along, at least until we had coughed up the current budget contributions, but looks like Theresa's using the strategy that Henry Kissinger once espoused (or he supposedly attributed it to the Chinese approach) in tough negotiations give in on the first point, then hold firm on everything else.

You're still fantasizing about the myth that they need us more than we need them. Yes, if we withheld payments while still within the EU they certainly could vote to either eject us or at least make life unbearably difficult by locking down customs borders triggering an economic collapse in the U.K. The fact you ever suggest it shows just how little grasp you have of the elements in play.