Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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More importantly in the 12 months to June 2017 over 26 million visitors came from the EU whereas less than 5 million came from North America, who was it you didn't want to upset again.
It is a strange dynamic because Europe values the UK far higher than the US do. Ultimately the US only care about themselves because they are big enough to only care about themselves, anyone deluded enough to think that they have a special bond with the US will ultimately look silly.
It's a funny world.
The ones that spend more
That would mean the EU.
I laughed a lot because this is so true. These arguments feel so familiar to me and this is why I see Europe as my home.
It is very interesting to have read my kids history books while they were growing up.
I feel the way that recent European history is taught in a way where the silly squabbling kids of Europe need aloof parent UK to come in and sort out their mess. It is not a partnership of equals. But of one distant country . I've always felt that some British people, regardless of any valid or invalid arguments for the EU, have always struggled to come to terms with the idea that Europe could dictate anything to us. How could the silly central Europeans from those tiny, insignificant countries with their ridiculous accents, ever tell us what to do?
I don't think this is an issue when we're dealing with a superpower.
I'd be interested to know if history is taught in the same way for other European countries that have recently been superpowers (esp France and Germany but I guess also Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands for example).
People wanting freedom from Brussels is because we feel we have had little say in things, no argument about the US being the bigger partner. Re us going alone we are bigger than both Australia and NZ combined by population which seems to make a mockery that we could not be successful going alone.
How much does the UK pay America to have a trade deal that we are currently in credit with like we are with the rest of the world?
How much do we pay the EU to have a trade deal with that we are in deficit to the tune of 68 billion pounds a year and then there are extra strings which force the UK to accept a huge potential downside risk?
You can argue the balancing point and I would agree but honestly, I don't get why people don't look at the numbers and think Brexit might have a broader helicopter view of reality.
I worry equally about what happens next and being wrong to vote remain and labour.
Good point yet don't we want both. Some will always come as we now have mixed relationships, others to see things like the Rosetta stone and others because they will still work here, yes we will not ask everyone to leave!
TBF, I don't think many will come for the food, even if we still have regional delicacies like Cornish pasties, Spotted Dick or Jellied eels.
The ones we don't upset by being ourselves?
Australia is even more in bed with the US than the UK is. At least we stayed out of Vietnam, and I don't recall a UK PM ever calling himself the US's deputy sheriff like John Howard did. Economically, unlike the UK, it has a huge amount of mineral resources ready to be dug up and shipped to China. And, most pertinently to all these debates about country A or country B standing alone, these countries have not developed their economies over the last 40 years around being part of the economic community and then single market. It is possible to extract ourselves and build a new model but, beyond Trump-style waffle, I have yet to hear any convincing argument why this huge and risky undertaking is worth the time, effort and sacrifices that will inevitably be required.
That trade deficit will still exist in some way or other unless by some miracle the UK manufactoring sector can turn the clock back. In fact it will now probably widen as it becomes more difficult to export goods and services into the huge market on our doorstep. In any case, even if you reduce the leave/remain argument to a simple matter of the membership fee (and I find that too simplistic), potential savings will be whittled down by the increase in bureaucracy needed to set up and run the new system if we are not to have "lorries backed up at Dover". And, for me, the most over-looked point is the opportunity cost. The government should be focused on the big challenges of the present and near future - overhauling the education system, funding health care for an ageing population, how to deal with increased automation. Instead, the focus of the government and civil service will be dominated by how to reinvent this particular wheel.
No, but it needs Britain to contribute its spending towards NATO defence. If we don't meet our 2% commitment the financial burden falls on the Americans and with Trump in charge and his 'relaxed view' about Russia, he won't think twice about ditching the defence, of certain states in Europe. The Baltic states and other East European Countries are hoping like mad that Britain outside the EU, will still continue to contribute to the overall NATO budget at the same rate and won't do a new deal with the US which just affects the defence of Western Europe only.
Yes as I understand it, something to do with its Air force and its loan of fighter jet to others in NATO, not being taken into consideration, seems to make a fair point really?
(By the way if you want to engage in conversations with me son, I would rather you say what you have to say and don't refer me to a third source, much oblige.)
The difference is what kind of stature and influence you want the UK to actually have. Neither Australia or NZ punch anywhere near the UK's weight either economically or on the world stage. Some of that comes from population size and location, but a lot of it comes from historical power and diplomatic influence. Obviously Britain could cut itself off from the EU (and the US if it chose) and still be a significant economy, but it would be a much less significant economy than it is currently, and the effect on our global influence would be greatly reduced. That's the big threat of Brexit, and its not just the 'still thinking we're a superpower' idea that a lot of people on the left think. That influence gives us a huge amount of power regarding trade and diplomatic dealings with other countries, and benefits British people greatly.
Oh I see, nothing to do with the footballer?
Well I can declare hand on heart I am not the afore mentioned Bringnaniback! If he stopped posting since the referendum, perhaps he's proved his point (if he had one) about the result of the Referendum?
Yes, conspiracy theories are great, aren't they? However there has to be some elements in them that are just about believable, otherwise they don't work. I'm well into my dotage now (maybe you can tell??) but in my life, truth has often turned out to be stranger than fiction.
Conspiracies sell books, make good TV documentaries, sometimes film thrillers? They make people think, if only for a few seconds then say "Nah that can't be true... can it? And where would Fake News be now without them and the past master Donald Trump, he's worth the entrance money on his own!
I suppose my most extreme conspiracy theory would be, that Britain will withdraw from the EU, Germany will take over as the European Superpower (in the guise of the EU), deals will be done that keep, lets be fair the only two countries that currently keep the EU afloat financially happy with each other and together will ensure the peace in Europe for the next half century!
Its far fetched of course, but consider this, for the past century, give or take, Britain has sided with France against Germany in terrible conflicts, all agree that cannot be repeated, so this time it looks like it will be France and Germany against Britain, but in an economic conflict, where unless Macron can do what he promises and raise France up to a modern state, that gets to grips with its left leaning Unions etc., then Germany will rule the roost in the EU and Germany will co-operate with Britain to their mutual advantage.
Think about that one Paul?
every country would want to make a deal with the UK. Whether that deal will be beneficial to the UK is a completely difficult cup of tea. Most will try to capitalise on the UK's relatively small size, its inexperience in signing trade deals, its lack of trade deals already in place, its wobbly government and its desperation in signing trade deals. Its not hatred or lack of friendship but business.
That's why the UK needs to prepare itself well. A long transitional period will give it the necessary time it needs to sign trade deals and, if things go wrong, plan for a plan B. The EFTA deal isn't that horrible
A modern state? That would be the same France that after the Brexit vote overtook Britain as the 5th largest economy? The same France that has higher worker productivity than Britain despite its 'left leaning unions etc'? Why exactly do you think a country with a higher standard of worker rights and living standards than the UK would want to follow us down the path of zero hour contracts, shitty working conditions and massive corporate power?
As De Gaulle aptly put it, "No nation has friends only interests". People need to remember that.
Its not about being harsh its about preserving the integrity of the single market.
Let put the ball in the UK court. Imagine if there's hard brexit. One find day Scotland decides to leave the UK and join the EU. However, its planning to do it in a bold new way, were it basically cherry picks between the two deals. The idea behind is to sell EU products to UK market on a cheap (ie no tariffs etc) and viceversa. Any UK companies interested in exploiting this loophole must move their operations to Scotland and pay all their taxes there.
Now do you think that Westminster will accept that?
Do you think that any refusal can ever be interpreted as harsh or cruel?
We both know the answer to that.
The single market exist because everyone has the same level of playing field which include the 4 freedoms and the ECJ. It cant open its door wide to a third country who isnt governed by such rules/regulations else it risks to create a loophole were other third countries can dump its products and services on cheap through the UK. Such situation would create an environment were it wouldn't even be worth be an EU member and that will destroy the Union forever
What I believe will happen is that the UK will settle its bill in exchange for a transitional period. The EU will will balance the books and the UK will be given some breathing space to think and sign trade deals. Thanks to that the UK will also leave the EU in an amicable way. That means that it would be too weird to knock the door again if the voters/economy push the government into a rethink
I think Nato is on buying time. The US interests has shifted East rather then West + Europe is getting increasingly frustrated with the US dictating its military policy.
It's interesting about unions. Off the top of my head I would have gone along with France being heavily unionised, because they do have some high-profile strikes of course, but it turns out France actually has less than half the percentage of workers in unions compared to the UK, and far less than Germany too. I'm not sure whether this is good, bad or irrelevant mind, just sharing my own misconception.
It's an important fact and you should also know that it's always the same groups and sub groups that organize strikes. They pre-organize them, we all know about it and we don't care about them because they don't represent the vast majority of people. Just take the current strikes, they were supposed to happen no matter who win the elections and no matter what they do, it's just ridiculous. Also only one union isn't working with the government on the labour reform, the CGT like always.
Where did you read this number? Imo its far off (should be between 5-10%). France has a lower % of workers being in unions compared to most European countries, but the unions in different countries follow very different traditions. E.g. in Swiss, Germany or northern Europe unions work much closer with companies and are far less confrontational. The idea is to some extend that the most important work of unions is not happening on the street but by improving companies from within without much fuss.
In France unions are far less cooperative and consequently their work is much more focused on applying pressure. Despite being smaller (in numbers), they have larger capabilities to mobilize protest.
A 10-second google of course:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=u...&ei=b7TDWbrZAcHOgAaOsoBA#imgrc=S3-u7Pc0wWHSxM:
I didn't go into it further because Forbes require your adblocker to be turned off and I generally can't be arsed with that.
I don't know if my first post was misleading, I meant the percentage of workers in unions in France is less than half the percentage of workers in unions in the UK, which at 11.2 to 24.7 I take it to be.
So it can absorb all the middle East and African immigrants on their way from Italy and Greece in the upcoming re-distribution project that Mrs Merkel is planning to organise after Brexit is settled and also to try to persuade the Banks to relocate some financial interest from London.
I think its more to do with the high profile element. French Unions or perhaps it should be groups which can apply maximum political as well as social pressures, eg. farmers, transport workers, etc seem to be able to bring France to a stand still or inflict humiliating defeats on the French Government, whether this applies in the Private Sector as a whole I'm not sure. Usual at some point in a high profile 'standoff' the French Government appears to give way, I can't recall a situation where the French Government publically, at least seems to win, that's not to say they didn't, but it doesn't seem to be held as a universal truth?
Yes, it does seem that way. I suppose I was musing to myself really, having been in a union for 40 years. They do lots of good things, both for workers and employers, but I've never been happy with strikes that hurt the general public. The wealthy can always get round their effects, and for them they're an inconvenience to be dealt with, but for poor people public service strikes, school strikes and so on can be horrible.
Yes, that is very true. I suppose the French Agricultural Workers/Unions could be praised for protecting the life style of many rural French citizens, in particular making sure the French Government kept the Common Agricultural Policy 'in play', despite it being a massive drain on the Common Market budget.
Unfortunately the British Unions never supported our Government's like that and the most vicious strikes (effects on the public) were the ones under Jim Callaghan that eventually allowed Mrs T into Downing Street. Once she had thumped the Miners British Unionism never really recovered, certainly in the eyes of most British workers, Unions could not win and hence membership of Trade Unions fell markedly. The last Miners Strike was the wrong battle, at the wrong time, against the wrong adversary, a glorious fight in the minds of its leaders, but one ultimately doomed to failure to a glorious failure. If our Unions had understood what the Common Market was really about back in the day, then either we would have been leading Europe now, or Brexit would have occurred at the time of the non-change of Sterling to the Euro, either way we would not be where we are today.
If I sound as though I'm blaming British Trades Unions I'm not, but they were so weak and singularly lacking in creative thought (as opposed to their French counterparts) that they allowed successive British Governments (Tory and Labour) to sleepwalk us in to the now EU monstrosity, whose clutches we are desperately trying to get out of, with some shred of dignity and without it costing us and our grandkids Billions.
{ PS I am not anti Union, for a year I was the youngest AUEW Shop Steward in East Manchester in the late sixties, the most influential 12 months in my life up to that time}
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It could also be argued that unions in the UK are now lower profile because of their and their political allies' success. At one time unions had to take up arms against so many things that are actually now enshrined in law, both British and European. The chief weapon of a worker treated unfairly now, whether they are in a union or not, is via tribunal or courts. Years ago the only defence was a strike threat.
To be honest I don't think that can be argued with so much of mainstream industry driven into the ground, or into the arms of foreign owners. The numbers of young people persuaded/conned into entering into debt, for what, to study in the main for 'mickey mouse' degrees, that will get them zero chance of employment. The large number of young (and old) people on zero hours and low pay, the stagnation in the public sector pay, the working poor now having to draw meagre benefits, advent of food banks, etc. This is no glorious success for trades unions or their allies (by the way who are their allies?). Neither is it a clarion call for the EU!
It is true Britain being part of the EU has earned lots of people new 'rights at work'... that's if they are in work, in proper jobs, which are few and far between, the most important Employee rights were determined when Britain was outside the EU.
Look back over relatively recent TU history and the main battles they have fought is with one another, for the continuing slide in membership. Traditional Trades Unionism is going nowhere in Britain until it addresses some fundamental problems, one of which is being able to have the slightest impact on Government policy, it will not do this through the Labour party who has lost all credibility with the base workforce and retains the chance of power only in the eyes of the looney left and its followers.
The last election did not signify a shift in public opinion, only for the BBC/Newsnight (who are desperate to get some credibility back after pooh-poohing for weeks, even on the night itself, the chance of a Brexit outcome in the Referendum) Theresa May ran a piss poor campaign, JC promised the earth to everyone, knowing he would never have to live up to his promises and lots of people who quite liked their own existing Labour MP voted Labour, not because of policy, but because they were confident that JC would not get in, because everybody else would surely vote against, so they could vote for their favourite MP with impunity.
A 'tragedy' of errors, some might think... and they are probably right!
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The BBC's desperate? My god you've turned into devilish. Everyone is desperate or begging in devilish-world.
Funny, in the sense of strange , agreed
You mean the EU even the 5 million includes Canadians
"Being ourselves" has shone out like a beacon since last year. Who cares about the money.
Yes, it is irritating when the piper calls the tune...isn't it! It could only be viewed as such in the EU!
Yes, sorry did get carried away a bit there!
I was meaning the BBC programme NEWSNIGHT not the BBC as a whole.. although if you... no won't go there!
He stopped posting because he was looking ridiculous and nothing he said has remotely come true, the result of the referendum wasn't a surprise to me, although initially straight after the referendum I thought, surely they can't be this stupid but indeed they were. The mentality of the average uninformed Brit was one of the reasons I left 10 years ago.
You see this conspiracy theory that has "scared" the Brexiters that Germany was dictating to the Uk what was happening in their own country. Well done to the British politicians to persuade a large chunk of the British electorate into believing that all the problems the public were facing were nothing to do with the government but that evil EU and more so those Germans who run it.
Unfortunately to the surprise of the Leave campaign, they won, they don't know what to do next and faffing around for the last 15 months, hoping it'll all go away.
Unfortunately the clock is ticking and once again reality is kicking in.
Apparently now it is the evil Merkel that's going to come to the rescue of the UK because Germany can't survive without the UK.
More like reality is that Germany and France who are the big 2 are rather looking forward to the disappearance of the Uk from the scene. The other larger countries like Italy, Spain and Poland will see them have a bigger say as well.
We've had the Austrian scare, the Dutch scare, the Italian scare, the French scare and even the German scare where Brexiters were hoping that the far right would get into power, none of it happened - we've got Trump and we've got Brexit. In another 3 years and 4 months Trump could be gone , the music may stop and who's left standing on their own- could be the UK.
Hopefully, free at last... !
So the truth will out Paul ...you left a sinking ship? No women and children first then?
Surely with your mentality so much higher than the rest of us 'dumbo's' you could have stayed and turned the tide..?
In the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king, eh?