Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[devilish]

You make it sound like Britain is some country that needs the EU to save itself from fecking up human rights, the foundations which seem to based in pure hysteria rather than actual factual or historic basis. Britain was one of the few countries PUSHING for there to be legal ramifications for breaking the UN's Universal Decleration of Human rights for christ sake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36434855



The UK is saying that it will allow anyone currently living here from the EU to apply for settled status which would entitle them to the NHS etc. The EU doing that to current UK immigrants over there would not be at all the same as the UK isn't doing that.

The British are still stuck to some royal families a relic that stinks of medieval rule. Sure they are expensive poster boys but it still give the impression that if one is born out from a certain family then his very future is ensured simply thanks to his blood line. Its democratic structure is a farce. Parties can get 12.5% of the votes and still end up with just 1 seat in parliament. Not to forget that its ignores a big chunk of the voter. I am a Lib Dem/Labour voter living in a council with a strong Tory base. Therefore my vote isn't worth the paper its printed upon.

Regarding human rights....well....they had been negotiable for many many years. From having such a great weapons business with Saudi Arabia knowing very well where they will end right to invading so many countries without any reason at all (WMDs?). The very fact that the UK expect the EU to go against their own morals and still sign a deal for business sake speaks volumes about their moral compass. I wonder what will be thrown under the bus in exchange for business (ie this time round with the US) Would it be the farmers who'll have to compete with cheaper GMOs produce and chlorinated chicken? Would it be the NHS?

So no, as an outsider I don't trust the British 'human rights' rule. As an immigrant whose country know exactly what the British rule are capable of, I trust them even less.

If the UK starts making restraints on immigrants then its only fair for the EU to do the same.Most EU immigrants residing in the UK are young, they are taxpayers and therefore they give a beneficial contribution to society. Can you say the same about the UK citizens who had retired in Spain, France and beyond?

 

[Stanley Road]

Tories to improve or at least protect workers rights?

Someone needs to, hopefully the fruit pickers can get a payrise so they are at least on 3 quid an hour.

 

[Stanley Road]

I know, but any decision they take has real heft

Depends how you look at it. 27 loons that all share the same ideology all coming to an agreement in 7 years is not great.

 

[Stanley Road]

If the UK starts making restraints on immigrants then its only fair for the EU to do the same.Most EU immigrants residing in the UK are young, they are taxpayers and therefore they give a beneficial contribution to society. Can you say the same about the UK citizens who had retired in Spain, France and beyond?

Are you saying retirees like Paul don't ever buy anything locally?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Someone needs to, hopefully the fruit pickers can get a payrise so they are at least on 3 quid an hour.

We don't want them to be able to afford toilet paper. They might start getting ideas(shudders)

 

[Mozza]

Depends how you look at it. 27 loons that all share the same ideology all coming to an agreement in 7 years is not great.

Nah, between the 27 you tend towards centrist policies

 

[The Outsider]

One thing I would like to understand further is how graduates here will be cheated out of their futures with Brexit?

Do we already have a lot of graduates working in jobs abroad fluent in European languages or is this like the fairy story we were told at school with computers coming in we would only be working about 4 hours a day?

 

[rcoobc]

One thing I would like to understand further is how graduates here will be cheated out of their futures with Brexit?

Do we already have a lot of graduates working in jobs abroad fluent in European languages or is this like the fairy story we were told at school with computers coming in we would only be working about 4 hours a day?

I have no idea what you mean, but there are graduates working towards careers in the EU.

If it helps in anyway, I have one friend working in Brussles and 2 friends working elsewhere in Europe. Anecdotal. I don't know what the numbers are.

Around 1 million UK citizens live in Europe

Edit

Spoiler

 

[Kentonio]

Tories to improve or at least protect workers rights?

Good luck with that.

Yeah, people might want to go and ask the doctors and nurses about what a bang up job the Tories have been doing looking after their workers rights. Or the police.

 

[Bury Red]

One thing I would like to understand further is how graduates here will be cheated out of their futures with Brexit?

Do we already have a lot of graduates working in jobs abroad fluent in European languages or is this like the fairy story we were told at school with computers coming in we would only be working about 4 hours a day?

There are plenty of us, just because you've never met any means little. I graduated in civil engineering from a French Uni as part of the ERASMUS program 25 years ago when it was far less common and have spent most of my career overseas predominantly with French and German firms. Even now although I'm back in the UK with a UK firm we have offices in 7 other EU countries plus the US, China, Saudi, Dubai and India and work globally.

We're still to see what the upshot of Brexit will be for my company but I would not be surprised if they delisted on the LSE and moved the headquarters elsewhere whilst if visas became an issue for me I'll be off to the Netherlands, Belgium or France. My brother in law's family made the move out of the UK 3 weeks ago as his position as a European patent attorney and specialised chemist was looking bleak in the UK. Brexit won't rob us of our opportunities as our careers are fairly well established but it will rob the next generation of the opportunities we had and may well see them struggling in a country with far less tax revenue coming in if those of us who fear the effects of Brexit on our careers and pensions decide to Brexit ourselves and leave the UK to it without our not insubstantial tax revenue and spending.

 

[I Believe]

One thing I would like to understand further is how graduates here will be cheated out of their futures with Brexit?

I suspect because they will have to study subjects/topics which when they have qualified will mean they can apply for jobs with good prospects, those which add value to the economy, and which will underpin the UK's world wide opportunities.
Brexit means Brexit!

 

[rcoobc]

I wonder what the next ridiculous Brexit claim will be, now we've had "no one British works in Europe anyway".

 

[Bury Red]

I'm on the continent at least 2-3 times per month and in calls with other countries daily, what still surprises me is the sheer number of UK plate cars you see on the roads of mainland Europe throughout France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany and sometimes even further afield. Just checked the stats and it's just over 2.5 Million car crossings per year on the tunnel so probably the same again at least if you add in the ferries.

 

[MoskvaRed]

One thing I would like to understand further is how graduates here will be cheated out of their futures with Brexit?

Do we already have a lot of graduates working in jobs abroad fluent in European languages or is this like the fairy story we were told at school with computers coming in we would only be working about 4 hours a day?

There are quite a lot of British people working in the EU, yes, although not enough probably to be a determining factor in the stay or leave debate. The truth is, rather like our footballers, there isn't currently much need from a purely employment or monetary perspective to go abroad (particularly in areas like financial services). However, if we go down the hard leave route, then that benign employment climate will get a lot harsher just as it gets a lot harder for British citizens to go to work in the EU.

 

[I Believe]

I wonder what the next ridiculous Brexit claim will be, now we've had "no one British works in Europe anyway".

Well as the re-moaners say, after Brexit, the UK will be so bad that nobody will want to come here... for many Brexiteers that's 'job done'!

 

[Bury Red]

Well as the re-moaners say, after Brexit, the UK will be so bad that nobody will want to come here... for many Brexiteers that's 'job done'!

Why would they want to damage the country that badly?

They will still have to live here.

The UK was never as great as the flag waving Little Englunders believed but it still has a fair way to fall and I can see no reason why anyone would help that fall in the name of patriotism, it's beyond insanity.

 

[Mozza]

I have no idea what you mean, but there are graduates working towards careers in the EU.

If it helps in anyway, I have one friend working in Brussles and 2 friends working elsewhere in Europe. Anecdotal. I don't know what the numbers are.

Around 1 million UK citizens live in Europe

Edit

Spoiler

Does that figure include the kids who work the summer in Ibiza etc?

 

[MoskvaRed]

Why would they want to damage the country that badly?

They will still have to live here.

The UK was never as great as the flag waving Little Englunders believed but it still has a fair way to fall and I can see no reason why anyone would help that fall in the name of patriotism, it's beyond insanity.

All very reasonable but it seems reason left the building a long time ago. I think there are two obstacles to a reassessment of the pros and cons:

1. For the fanatics who have been fighting EU membership since at least Maastricht, it is essentially a matter of faith and evidence can be moulded to fit into the narrative. Besides, like all fanatics, they would welcome martyrdom.

2. For the much larger group of leavers who were just generally dissatisfied and wanted an outlet for their grievances, it would involve admitting they made a mistake (and no one likes to do so), plus some recognition by the government that there were sound reasons why they were pissed off. This should in theory be achievable but not under May (or Johnson).

 

[Bury Red]

Does that figure include the kids who work the summer in Ibiza etc?

I doubt it, you've usually got to be there for 12 months at least before you'd be counted as resident and be gone at least 12 months to drop off the UK figures and a full 3 years to be declared not ordinarily resident in the UK. Those figures look like the proper expats living and schooling, working or retired there.

 

[Mozza]

I doubt it, you've usually got to be there for 12 months at least before you'd be counted as resident and be gone at least 12 months to drop off the UK figures and a full 3 years to be declared not ordinarily resident in the UK. Those figures look like the proper expats living and schooling, working or retired there.

Which tells me there's more than a million Brits out there.

This hatred of migrants hits the young and the poor hardest. Inflation doesn't touch the old, triple lock pensions mean they are immune to it, they won't be going abroad very often, not to work summers anyway, and they have all the time in the day to get a visa.

 

[I Believe]

Why would they want to damage the country that badly?

That's the whole point for many people, it wouldn't be damaging the country it would be saving the country from a United States of Europe, with a Euro currency, dominated by Germany, a concept fought against in two world wars and a concept no-one in the 1970's voted for when joining the Common Market, but nevertheless over the years its has been being formed, by stealth, by sleepwalking.
The majority of people (albeit a slim one) in the UK woke up just in time.

Leaving aside immigration issues and the connotations (that even Blair has recognised, belatedly of course), the UK will never give up the Pound (Sterling) and as such would always be in division two of the EU. A 'soft' Brexit would put us in division 3, so for many its better we breakaway and form our own Premier League.

 

[berbatrick]

That's the whole point for many people, it wouldn't be damaging the country it would be saving the country from a United States of Europe, with a Euro currency, dominated by Germany, a concept fought against in two world wars and a concept no-one in the 1970's voted for when joining the Common Market, but nevertheless over the years its has been being formed, by stealth, by sleepwalking.
The majority of people (albeit a slim one) in the UK woke up just in time.

Leaving aside immigration issues and the connotations (that even Blair has recognised, belatedly of course), the UK will never give up the Pound (Sterling) and as such would always be in division two of the EU. A 'soft' Brexit would put us in division 3, so for many its better we breakaway and form our own Premier League.

I think the Germans of WW2 had slightly more than a common currency and boring bureaucracy in mind.

 

[I Believe]

I think the Germans of WW2 had slightly more than a common currency and boring bureaucracy in mind.

Indeed, but of course we have every reason to suppose they have changed their minds now... ask the Greeks about that one!

 

[Kentonio]

Indeed, but of course we have every reason to suppose they have changed their minds now... ask the Greeks about that one!

Ah yes, those evil Germans sending billions of euros of their own money to Greece. Clear sign of a fourth reich..

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Indeed, but of course we have every reason to suppose they have changed their minds now... ask the Greeks about that one!

Yet more proof that Brexiteers know absolutely nothing about the EU or how it works. Looking forward to when the UK finally goes away , why not go now, what are you waiting for - because the Uk are off a cliff edge now or in 18 months time, it'll make no difference.

 

[Dobba]

Has white dog shit come back yet?

 

[I Believe]

Ah yes, those evil Germans sending billions of euros of their own money to Greece. Clear sign of a fourth reich..

With a large 'to do in return' list and a threat of bankruptcy attached if non-compliance. Ask a lot of Greeks about this and you get the reply they once more feel subjugated, not under the boot this time but under the eurowithdrawl threat.

 

[Kentonio]

With a large 'to do in return' list and a threat of bankruptcy attached if non-compliance. Ask a lot of Greeks about this and you get the reply they once more feel subjugated, not under the boot this time but under the eurowithdrawl threat.

Gosh, you mean they lent money with an expectation that it might actually be repaid at some point and wasn't just a gift? The bastards!!

 

[I Believe]

Gosh, you mean they lent money with an expectation that it might actually be repaid at some point and wasn't just a gift? The bastards!!

No they lent money knowing it could not be repaid! Now why did they do that?
Where was the 'due diligence' done on the Greek economy, by German bankers who are so famous for the efficiency, very much doubt it was done?

I worked for the EU for five years late 90's to early OO's, I asked repeatedly for an audit of a relatively low cost project, 12 times I asked Brussels, it was always refused.
On these pages I cannot tell you why, but suffice to say, nepotism, corruption and incompetence figured highly.
We are in danger of losing our wallets every day we remain.

 

[Kentonio]

No they lent money knowing it could not be repaid! Now why did they do that?
Where was the 'due diligence' done on the Greek economy, by German bankers who are so famous for the efficiency, very much doubt it was done?

I worked for the EU for five years late 90's to early OO's, I asked repeatedly for an audit of a relatively low cost project, 12 times I asked Brussels, it was always refused.
On these pages I cannot tell you why, but suffice to say, nepotism, corruption and incompetence figured highly.
We are in danger of losing our wallets every day we remain.

I don't doubt your story in the slightest, the EU had a serious corruption problem during that time, which was widely reported on. I'm sure not all those problems have been resolved yet either, but I think it's equally a stretch to think that the condition of an organization 15 years ago must still be true today. For the record I was very anti-EU about 15 years ago.

As for Greece, Germany was in a very awkward situation. An economically collapsing Greece doesn't do Germany and the EU any favours at all, and Greece dropping out of the EU and the Eurozone would have been a huge danger to the project as a whole. From what I can gather Germany knew it was going to lose heavily on the deal, but given that they were pumping vast sums of cash into the Greece economy they had to try and force the Greeks into at least attempting a rational economic plan that could result in stabilization. Perhaps that plan was fundamentally flawed, and maybe it did more harm than good, but I don't think anyone can seriously claim that the Greek economy was anything less than a gigantic shitshow long before the Germans got involved, and as a country with a very vibrant economy they're probably not the worse country to provide economic advice.

What I do take issue with is the idea that the Germans are somehow bad for trying to save Greece within the Eurozone. The reasons for doing it are fairly straightforward in the larger context of the Eurozone project, Germany have substantial skin in the game like all 19 Euro nations, and this repeated implication that Germany are trying to take over Europe (and the endless snarky mentions of WW2) are just deeply insulting and offensive to one of Europes most peaceful and non-warlike nations.

 

[Full bodied red]

I don't doubt your story in the slightest, the EU had a serious corruption problem during that time, which was widely reported on. I'm sure not all those problems have been resolved yet either, but I think it's equally a stretch to think that the condition of an organization 15 years ago must still be true today. For the record I was very anti-EU about 15 years ago.

As for Greece, Germany was in a very awkward situation. An economically collapsing Greece doesn't do Germany and the EU any favours at all, and Greece dropping out of the EU and the Eurozone would have been a huge danger to the project as a whole. From what I can gather Germany knew it was going to lose heavily on the deal, but given that they were pumping vast sums of cash into the Greece economy they had to try and force the Greeks into at least attempting a rational economic plan that could result in stabilization. Perhaps that plan was fundamentally flawed, and maybe it did more harm than good, but I don't think anyone can seriously claim that the Greek economy was anything less than a gigantic shitshow long before the Germans got involved, and as a country with a very vibrant economy they're probably not the worse country to provide economic advice.

What I do take issue with is the idea that the Germans are somehow bad for trying to save Greece within the Eurozone. The reasons for doing it are fairly straightforward in the larger context of the Eurozone project, Germany have substantial skin in the game like all 19 Euro nations, and this repeated implication that Germany are trying to take over Europe (and the endless snarky mentions of WW2) are just deeply insulting and offensive to one of Europes most peaceful and non-warlike nations.

It's your use of the word ' Project ' which gives the game away about why many of us want nothing to do with the EU.

What do you, personally, think is the political or social purpose of the ' Project ' beyond the original purpose of Free Trade amongst its members ?

 

[I Believe]

What I do take issue with is the idea that the Germans are somehow bad for trying to save Greece within the Eurozone

Sorry, you misunderstand my sentiments, its not a complaint about Germany trying to keep Greece in the EU, they should never have been permitted to join in the first place!

As I say the 'due diligence' was not done on the Greek economy, at the time it was in no fit state to join the EU. I maybe wrong but it was my recollection at the time that the strongest advocates for Greek entry was Germany and of course with German's backing everything's possible in the EU. If the EU knew this going in, then why was Greece admitted? These and many other similar questions have never been answered, in many cases the questions have never been put!

As for the organisation getting better, that's not the case I'm afraid, the EU never really recovered from the Edith Cresson (Corruption) Affair and the Santer Commission Resignations, it just went deeper into its shell of displacement, disinformation, distraction etc. (would give the CIA a good run for its money) There are still no realistic audits of EU accounts by an independent body, after what 15 years? No I'm sorry the remainers are 'wishing and hoping' on that one.

 

[Full bodied red]

That's not good, and nothing to aspire to.

I suspect there are quite a few non nigerian africans working in the country without a visa

A few, no doubt...But very few

But this xenophobia thing you talk about isn't just confined to Europe.


https://qz.com/918838/in-south-afri...ets-of-an-anti-immigration-march-in-pretoria/

 

[Kentonio]

It's your use of the word ' Project ' which gives the game away about why many of us want nothing to do with the EU.

What do you, personally, think is the political or social purpose of the ' Project ' beyond the original purpose of Free Trade amongst its members ?

The European Union (and its previous guises) has always been about a lot more than a free trade zone, and the idea that it started out intended as such is deeply misleading. The European (including British) leaders after WW2 were quite clear about their intentions for Europe to become far more integrated to avoid more wars, and the path from there to where we are now wasn't a hard one to read. The free trade zone was a starting point not a destination, the real question is whether full integration or something short of that is the ideal.

If anything the case for integration is now stronger than its ever been. After 3 quarters of a century of American domination, the US is declining fairly rapidly while Russia is reviving and China is rapidly rising. America is unstable, Russia is belligerent and China will do whatever they feel is in their best interests. The only way to ensure the full protection of European interests is for the European nations to group together and face the world as a united unit. The only alternative is to continue to be the plaything of an increasingly unreliable US, trading any realistic notion of foreign policy independence for the protection of their military might. Personally I'd far rather be a member of a united Europe that runs its own affairs, than the puppet of the United States.

 

[Full bodied red]

The European Union (and its previous guises) has always been about a lot more than a free trade zone, and the idea that it started out intended as such is deeply misleading. The European (including British) leaders after WW2 were quite clear about their intentions for Europe to become far more integrated to avoid more wars, and the path from there to where we are now wasn't a hard one to read. The free trade zone was a starting point not a destination, the real question is whether full integration or something short of that is the ideal.

If anything the case for integration is now stronger than its ever been. After 3 quarters of a century of American domination, the US is declining fairly rapidly while Russia is reviving and China is rapidly rising. America is unstable, Russia is belligerent and China will do whatever they feel is in their best interests. The only way to ensure the full protection of European interests is for the European nations to group together and face the world as a united unit. The only alternative is to continue to be the plaything of an increasingly unreliable US, trading any realistic notion of foreign policy independence for the protection of their military might. Personally I'd far rather be a member of a united Europe that runs its own affairs, than the puppet of the United States.

Fair enough....

But let's just agree that when the UK and the other EFTA members joined in the 70's, there was no mention of this hidden agenda and so those anti-EU sympathisers and supporters such as myself have a right to feel that they were hoodwinked and are quite right to want out of something not evenly remotely like they were told they were joining.

 

[I Believe]

The free trade zone was a starting point not a destination,

That's not how it was presented by Harold Wilson... or years later even by Tony Blair, who said one thing and did another (and possibly ruined the Labour party forever... but that's an aside)
If we were in the future supposed to be "part of one European nation under God and the Euro" why was that not explained, or better still put to a referendum then?
Why have we stuck with the Pound (Sterling)? Surely it was obvious (even to the dimmest of minds) if we want a seat at the top table of Europe we need to be part of the Euro?

There are two problems; one the British people were lied to, generation after generation, the real reason for the 'project' never explained or discussed in open public debate and the second one was the construct of the 'politicised' incoherent, incompetent, corrupt and undemocratic entity called the European Union, mainly or as much as anything because at its roots 'the treaty of Rome' was not fit for purpose, it was a treaty between 8 member states concerning free trade, that was intended for something else entirely and of course try as we may there is no going back and unravelling the Treaty of Rome, why because it never envisaged the need to do so.

We are were we are and the sooner we get out of the monolithic EU the better, who knows we might even start an alternative European Project, devised on democratic principles, recognising sovereign governments and that is incorruptible (well as much as it can be), but above all open and honest about its intentions!

 

[Kentonio]

Fair enough....

But let's just agree that when the UK and the other EFTA members joined in the 70's, there was no mention of this hidden agenda and so those anti-EU sympathisers and supporters such as myself have a right to feel that they were hoodwinked and are quite right to want out of something not evenly remotely like they were told they were joining.

I completely agree. It was one of the main reasons I used to be quite virulently anti-EU. We were lied to not just once or twice, but repeatedly over decades. Heath even admited it years later (and was smugly proud of the fact). There was still that attitude back then (and it continues today to an extent) that the public are stupid and short-sighted and must be treated like children, led by the hand baby step by baby step. It infuriates me, and its the real reason for the Brexit result. The lies caught up with them eventually.

The reason I personally switched positions, was because when I look at the broader picture, I think their overall rationale was correct, even though they went about it in such a dishonest and incredibly patronizing manner. I simply don't see a path to true sovereignty and independence for the individual European nations in a world that is growing increasingly small and where the future threats we face are becoming so very powerful. Even the biggest of us is small and vulnerable in the face of the coming (and existing) superpowers, and none of them share the same vision for tolerance and peace that we do.

In my estimation a strong EU is our best chance for keeping out of future conflict, and avoiding manipulation by others. Of course that relies on people believing that the other European nations can be trusted, but I'd point to 40 years of peace and cooperation on one side, and a wider world full of war and discontent on the other as evidence that this is our best route. I certainly think that the days of thinking we're an island nation and can just raise the drawbridge behind us are long gone. I think we have to accept that the EU sure as hell isn't perfect, but its the best of the very limited options we have available to us.

 

[devilish]

That's not how it was presented by Harold Wilson... or years later even by Tony Blair, who said one thing and did another (and possibly ruined the Labour party forever... but that's an aside)
If we were in the future supposed to be "part of one European nation under God and the Euro" why was that not explained, or better still put to a referendum then?
Why have we stuck with the Pound (Sterling)? Surely it was obvious (even to the dimmest of minds) if we want a seat at the top table of Europe we need to be part of the Euro?

There are two problems; one the British people were lied to, generation after generation, the real reason for the 'project' never explained or discussed in open public debate and the second one was the construct of the 'politicised' incoherent, incompetent, corrupt and undemocratic entity called the European Union, mainly or as much as anything because at its roots 'the treaty of Rome' was not fit for purpose, it was a treaty between 8 member states concerning free trade, that was intended for something else entirely and of course try as we may there is no going back and unravelling the Treaty of Rome, why because it never envisaged the need to do so.

We are were we are and the sooner we get out of the monolithic EU the better, who knows we might even start an alternative European Project, devised on democratic principles, recognising sovereign governments and that is incorruptible (well as much as it can be), but above all open and honest about its intentions!

There is a bigger chance of the uk becoming the US 51 state with the same work conditions, food standards and a non existent nhs

Thats fair enough considering the uk policy in the past 3 decades or so

 

[devilish]

The EU is corrupt. The uk is not. In matter of fact the 1b given to the dup was the work of careful planning and years of real politic. Its certainly not a bribe

 

[rcoobc]

That's not how it was presented by Harold Wilson... or years later even by Tony Blair, who said one thing and did another (and possibly ruined the Labour party forever... but that's an aside)
If we were in the future supposed to be "part of one European nation under God and the Euro" why was that not explained, or better still put to a referendum then?
Why have we stuck with the Pound (Sterling)? Surely it was obvious (even to the dimmest of minds) if we want a seat at the top table of Europe we need to be part of the Euro?

There are two problems; one the British people were lied to, generation after generation, the real reason for the 'project' never explained or discussed in open public debate and the second one was the construct of the 'politicised' incoherent, incompetent, corrupt and undemocratic entity called the European Union, mainly or as much as anything because at its roots 'the treaty of Rome' was not fit for purpose, it was a treaty between 8 member states concerning free trade, that was intended for something else entirely and of course try as we may there is no going back and unravelling the Treaty of Rome, why because it never envisaged the need to do so.

We are were we are and the sooner we get out of the monolithic EU the better, who knows we might even start an alternative European Project, devised on democratic principles, recognising sovereign governments and that is incorruptible (well as much as it can be), but above all open and honest about its intentions!

Can i have a clarification from the caf?...

How much of us staying out of the Euro was a choice by a John Major or Gordan Brown... And how much was it an accident due to our collapse in the European Exchange Rate Mechanism and the events of black Wednesday?