Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[rcoobc]

The European Union (and its previous guises) has always been about a lot more than a free trade zone, and the idea that it started out intended as such is deeply misleading. The European (including British) leaders after WW2 were quite clear about their intentions for Europe to become far more integrated to avoid more wars, and the path from there to where we are now wasn't a hard one to read. The free trade zone was a starting point not a destination, the real question is whether full integration or something short of that is the ideal.

If anything the case for integration is now stronger than its ever been. After 3 quarters of a century of American domination, the US is declining fairly rapidly while Russia is reviving and China is rapidly rising. America is unstable, Russia is belligerent and China will do whatever they feel is in their best interests. The only way to ensure the full protection of European interests is for the European nations to group together and face the world as a united unit. The only alternative is to continue to be the plaything of an increasingly unreliable US, trading any realistic notion of foreign policy independence for the protection of their military might. Personally I'd far rather be a member of a united Europe that runs its own affairs, than the puppet of the United States.

For what it's worth (not much) i agree with all of that. There was plenty of discussion amongst pokiticians about the future of europe and preventing war and opening up the borders integration.

The problem with saying "well thats not how it was sold to the British people" is of course not. It wasnt for the british people of 1975 to decide to join schengen or the single market... That was for the people of 1985 and 1992 to decide.

The real problem is of course politicians not taking the view of Britain's at the time, and maybe Europe not accepting a more "pick and choose" system for its members. Britian probably never should have accepted free movement for an enlarged EU. If they hadnt... We wouldn't be in this mess

 

[Kentonio]

The real problem is of course politicians not taking the view of Britain's at the time, and maybe Europe not accepting a more "pick and choose" system for its members. Britian probably never should have accepted free movement for an enlarged EU. If they hadnt... We wouldn't be in this mess

I think the real problem was that Britains politicians were just as involved as everyone elses with those decisions, they weren't pushed into it against their will, they went along with it (and led it at times) as much as anyone else. But because they never bothered (or more accurately didnt think the British people were ready to go along with it) they built this narrative of an inevitable slide towards integration that they were bravely fighting against. I think it was complete bullshit basically, they just never expected to have the rug pulled out from under them.

 

[Mozza]

A few, no doubt...But very few

But this xenophobia thing you talk about isn't just confined to Europe.


https://qz.com/918838/in-south-afri...ets-of-an-anti-immigration-march-in-pretoria/

I think Nigeria with its land borders will have far more illegal migrants than the UK

Again it's nothing we should aspire to. Why do you see others indulging in xenophobia and want to copy it?

 

[I Believe]

built this narrative of an inevitable slide towards integration that they were bravely fighting against. I think it was complete bullshit basically, they just never expected to have the rug pulled out from under them

You've captured it, in a nutshell, so to speak!

This why earlier I mentioned about the British public being lied to again and again. Of course no one lied outright, (what Politician ever does?).
The simple and somewhat basic problem was we were not original members of the club nor contributors to the original Treaty of Rome on which the whole edifice, in particular freedom of movement was envisaged. We were not there when the basic and fundamentally unchangeable rules of the 'project' were drawn up, we missed the boat, you can almost say we jumped on the boat, not knowing where it was heading, at least the mass of the British Public didn't.

Slowly of course as new treaty's emerged, all built around and on top of the foundation Treaty of Rome, but not amending it in anyway, the British public were told by its politicians its OK, don't worry... look we're getting a rebate, look we can opt out of this and that, look we are not joining the Euro.
Still the penny didn't drop, ask your self if you joined a club where you had not had any say in setting the basic rules, where you were entitled to a rebate (doesn't that imply you've been paying too much?), where you don't join the main currency and where you opt out of things you don't like, or perhaps more correctly your politicians didn't think you would stomach!
Wouldn't it make you think, what the hell am I doing in this club, paying in more 'subs' than anyone else (except one other member) and more than I get back, also 'opting out' of some main areas of club interests, and most importantly being unable to change the founding principles of the Project, which act against our interests forty years on!

Anyone in their right mind would say lets get the hell out of here... and hopefully that's what we will do!

 

[Kentonio]

Still the penny didn't drop, ask your self if you joined a club where you had not had any say in setting the basic rules, where you were entitled to a rebate (doesn't that imply you've been paying too much?), where you don't join the main currency and where you opt out of things you don't like, or perhaps more correctly your politicians didn't think you would stomach!
Wouldn't it make you think, what the hell am I doing in this club, paying in more 'subs' than anyone else (except one other member) and more than I get back, also 'opting out' of some main areas of club interests, and most importantly being unable to change the founding principles of the Project, which act against our interests forty years on!

Anyone in their right mind would say lets get the hell out of here... and hopefully that's what we will do!

The part you're skipping over is that in that same period (and in large part because of our membership) we reconstructed Britain from a failing manufacturing state into a hugely successful and rich service and financial industry led country. Over the last 10 years there has been a real slump in the conditions of a lot of working people thanks to respective governments taking the side of corporations and banks, but nothing today compares to the shitshow that was Britain in the 70's. Can you even imagine what the country would do today if the government announced that they could only have electricity for 3 days a week? Or if the streets were filled with huge mounds of rubbish because no-one was collecting it for weeks? Or if the dead weren't being buried because even the grave-diggers were on strike? Nothing today compares to that, but then again people's expectations are considerably higher today than they were then.

That's what pisses me off about the Leave arguments about the amount of money we put in, they never bother to mention the huge benefits including economic benefits that we've taken back as a result. The vast, vast majority of experts have told you that leaving would be a huge economic hit, so why aren't you listening to them?

 

[The Outsider]

I have no idea what you mean, but there are graduates working towards careers in the EU.

If it helps in anyway, I have one friend working in Brussles and 2 friends working elsewhere in Europe. Anecdotal. I don't know what the numbers are.

Around 1 million UK citizens live in Europe

Edit

Spoiler

The table does give some surprising figures. I note none of Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary are even mentioned just mainly old Europe. Interesting though Spain is not in the top 3 economies it has the highest even in the working age groups.

From the article link:

Ms Roebuck wanting to work in Brussels for the EU institutions after studying European politics, not sure she would even beat local competition yet with those qualifications she could certainly become a journalist, there are other options.

Luke teaching English in Spain, admit that career choice would be hit, some demand even with a hard Brexit due to US multinationals being in Europe with spoken English in the offices. Yet a lot of those teaching English go further afield like Middle East or Far East. I personally considered this some years ago and was told the market in Western Europe was saturated with teachers so already people were moving further afield.

Lucy in Germany does work for a US multi. What I would say she is at the mercy anyway of the US multi, it could up-sticks any day and move the HQ back to the US.

There are plenty of us, just because you've never met any means little. I graduated in civil engineering from a French Uni as part of the ERASMUS program 25 years ago when it was far less common and have spent most of my career overseas predominantly with French and German firms. Even now although I'm back in the UK with a UK firm we have offices in 7 other EU countries plus the US, China, Saudi, Dubai and India and work globally.

Thanks interesting example, though ideally if we wanted civil engineers and couldn't train ourselves there is no reason why we cannot subsidise their training elsewhere or bring in the skilled labour.

Below I have collated some of my ideas about the Brexit vote as I am interested to see from those in the North West if the issues are the same.

I can only speak for the South, yet the people I know largely voted Brexit for a number of reasons.

Both around culture and probably globalisation.

Culture – increased crime and so many foreign voices on the streets making Brits (especially older ones) feel like foreigners in their own country. This is multi-faceted not just due to the EU yet thanks to politicians and the media saying that due to ECHR we could not change anything this fuelled the anti-EU rhetoric.

Globalisation, a huge loss of jobs via outsourcing since the banking crisis and also with workers being brought in by multinationals from Asia (banking, Insurance, computing) not seen as a skill shortage yet decreasing salaries. Not particularly the fault of the EU yet the feeling appears to be we cannot control anything while we are in the EU because of what we have been told about the ECHR.

Infrastructure pressures – schools, houses and hospitals.

Before Brexit the debate centred around how we needed skilled EU migrants and only after the referendum did unskilled EU labour enter the debate.

A fair number of articulate people did well out of the EU – senior finance people, property developers, college managers and some that successfully moved to Europe yet it seems so many more did badly, fisherman, hotel workers, removal men, café and restaurant workers, hospital porters, postman, refuse men, trades people. Now add to that the white collar jobs lost due to globalisation, the self-employed losing their clients and the police dealing with waves of EU criminals needing translators at £150 per call out as well as dealing with disaffected descendants of earlier waves of immigration, farmers having livestock stolen, churches having lead stolen from roofs and railway tracks stripped of wire and you can start to understand the rising tide of anger.

Do you chaps and ladies and other types (LGBT) from the North West see the same issues or is this just a whinging Southern perspective?

 

[Dobba]

And we're off.

 

[I Believe]

and in large part because of our membership

Sorry I was taking you seriously up to this part. How large a part in our revival (if that's what you call it) did our membership play exactly, in the 1970's?

Yes, its true we headed for the calmer waters of the common market, any port in a storm, our social and political structures were in mayhem and had ruined a lot of our industry. However we never properly looked ahead. I suppose that the cliché about drowning men and straws is apt, however it was the 'jackboot' of Mrs T who sorted things out, the Common Market just effectively allowed her to weaken and then reshape our mixed economy, drove us towards a services and finance based economy which have certainly helped London and the South East of England, but have crippled the rest of the country. Perhaps Scotland escaped a bit, with it gaining its Barnet formulae, this kept the Celtic hordes pacified (for a while anyway) and believing for a while (until Ship Building and Fishing Industries took a hit) the EEC was marvellous laddie!

It's of no real surprise that the main areas for remain were London, Manchester, and other large cities, whilst in the rest of the country it was overwhelmingly leave, don't see how this will change to be honest. The EU has almost taken us back to the middle ages, the have's residing in their modern day 'city castles' well fed, well supplied and well armed, the rest of the populace the have not's eking out a living outside the castles at the mercy of a new brand of global 'Robber Barons', paying low wages, zero hours contracts, who knows, if energy policy goes tits up and it does get scarce, they may open the pits again, of course it might help to lower the unemployment rate amongst teenagers (males and females down the pit these days, equal opportunity etc.)

Stagnation and wastage is all we have to look forward to within the EU, we need to be out on our own and to be able to get rid of the those pesky House of Commons politicians who tell us one thing, then hide behind the anonymity of the EU directives, when they fail. One way or another their days are numbered!

 

[The Outsider]

The part you're skipping over is that in that same period (and in large part because of our membership) we reconstructed Britain from a failing manufacturing state into a hugely successful and rich service and financial industry led country. Over the last 10 years there has been a real slump in the conditions of a lot of working people thanks to respective governments taking the side of corporations and banks, but nothing today compares to the shitshow that was Britain in the 70's. Can you even imagine what the country would do today if the government announced that they could only have electricity for 3 days a week? Or if the streets were filled with huge mounds of rubbish because no-one was collecting it for weeks? Or if the dead weren't being buried because even the grave-diggers were on strike? Nothing today compares to that, but then again people's expectations are considerably higher today than they were then.

That's what pisses me off about the Leave arguments about the amount of money we put in, they never bother to mention the huge benefits including economic benefits that we've taken back as a result. The vast, vast majority of experts have told you that leaving would be a huge economic hit, so why aren't you listening to them?

I remember the power strikes in the 70s with being at home under candle light yet wasn't that due to the 70's oil crisis?
Didn't this impact Europe too?
Recent analysis of the mini has shown they under priced it when it should have been the car to put the company back in profit. This suggests corporate complacency.
Datsuns and BMWs rusted just like the old English cars, the difference was the Germans and Japanese invested in research and development.
I have been told that British companies couldn't plan because of the unstable monetary policy leading to varying interest rates and investors focussing on stock market returns rather than investing in companies.

I agree that in getting rid of one evil of a badly run socialist economy we have now gone to the other extreme with things like zero hour contracts.

I have researched alternative health and know through health education and alternative technology we could make huge strides and health cut costs yet remember the demonization of Jamie Oliver when he tried to do something at the schools. Unfortunately we still have a self serving elite controlling the Nation yet once we are out they can no longer blame the EU for not changing things.

You are right that Britain outside of the EU will not be a bed of roses and I think we just might need new political parties to make this work.

Are Labour and the Conservative parties the best option for the 21st Century to take us forward or are they too outdated and corrupt?

 

[Kentonio]

Sorry I was taking you seriously up to this part. How large a part in our revival (if that's what you call it) did our membership play exactly, in the 1970's?

It's not about the 1970's, its about the way that trading and cross border regulations system allowed us to grow in ways that would not have been anywhere near as simple without it.

drove us towards a services and finance based economy which have certainly helped London and the South East of England, but have crippled the rest of the country.

They haven't crippled anything, and that's why the glee of so many Leave voters at the idea of the City getting fecked by a Brexit is so horribly short sighted. Government neglect fecked the rest of the country, not the rise in London financial services or indeed our move towards becoming a service industry country. They simply haven't given that much of a feck about anywhere outside the south east. There's no good reason why the other parts of the country couldn't be sharing in that prosperity if Westminster ever actually invested in them properly.

It's of no real surprise that the main areas for remain were London, Manchester, and other large cities, whilst in the rest of the country it was overwhelmingly leave, don't see how this will change to be honest. The EU has almost taken us back to the middle ages, the have's residing in their modern day 'city castles' well fed, well supplied and well armed, the rest of the populace the have not's eking out a living outside the castles at the mercy of a new brand of global 'Robber Barons', paying low wages, zero hours contracts, who knows, if energy policy goes tits up and it does get scarce, they may open the pits again, of course it might help to lower the unemployment rate amongst teenagers (males and females down the pit these days, equal opportunity etc.)

Stagnation and wastage is all we have to look forward to within the EU, we need to be out on our own and to be able to get rid of the those pesky House of Commons politicians who tell us one thing, then hide behind the anonymity of the EU directives, when they fail. One way or another their days are numbered!

The incredible irony here is that the EU had nothing to do with the problems of our own government neglecting most of the country, all they did is allow the areas where we have done well to thrive. So now the Leave solution is to torpedo the areas where we do well, and hope that this somehow makes the other areas magically become better. Despite us suddenly having considerably less national income to pay for it even if we do get a government willing to.

Does that really make sense to you?

 

[Full bodied red]

There is a bigger chance of the uk becoming the US 51 state with the same work conditions, food standards and a non existent nhs

Thats fair enough considering the uk policy in the past 3 decades or so

Fair point....

Although I'd prefer the UK and France to be the 51st and 52nd States of the USA than the 27the and 28th States of the USE.

Why ?

The USA 300 million people and has the natural resources and military strength and combined will to succeed on a global stage.

The USE ?

Hopelessly divided about the present and the future.

 

[devilish]

Fair point....

Although I'd prefer the UK and France to be the 50th and 51st States of the USA than the 27the and 28th States of the USE.

Why ?

The USA 300 million people and has the natural resources and military strength and combined will to succeed on a global stage.

The USE ?

Hopelessly divided about the present and the future.

Well it depends how you see it. You can either be a big fish in a small pond that you belong to or a small guppy in a big big ocean were you're largely irrelevant. As a Maltese I assure you we're way better off as a country whose part of Europe (although we're no top dogs we still have a veto on a lot of things) then as a some small colony inside a much much bigger empire. I assure you the latter isn't nice at all despite its 'natural resources, the military strength and all'

The funny thing you had the best of two worlds. With the uk influence on europe gone what can you possible offer the us that it doesnt already has? .

 

[711]

Fair point....

Although I'd prefer the UK and France to be the 51st and 52nd States of the USA than the 27the and 28th States of the USE.

Why ?

The USA 300 million people and has the natural resources and military strength and combined will to succeed on a global stage.

The USE ?

Hopelessly divided about the present and the future.

All hail President Trump.

 

[Kentonio]

You are right that Britain outside of the EU will not be a bed of roses and I think we just might need new political parties to make this work.

Are Labour and the Conservative parties the best option for the 21st Century to take us forward or are they too outdated and corrupt?

I have a close friend who voted Leave with the same idea that we needed a radical change in the parties. The thing is I don't think anything about Brexit is going to lead to that. If anything it will solidify the old parties and push us back towards a 2 party system (which we saw in the last election) rather than the multi-party coalition system we had been moving towards previously.

 

[Kentonio]

Fair point....

Although I'd prefer the UK and France to be the 51st and 52nd States of the USA than the 27the and 28th States of the USE.

Why ?

The USA 300 million people and has the natural resources and military strength and combined will to succeed on a global stage.

The USE ?

Hopelessly divided about the present and the future.

I don't get this at all. The Europeans are far closer to us in terms of values and culture than the US. The EU is also far less divided than the US, which is basically cut completely down the middle between hardcore conservatives and centrist conservatives with some socially liberal values.

 

[The Outsider]

Well it depends how you see it. Being a big fish in a small pond that you belong to or a small guppy in the ocean sort of thing. As a Maltese I assure you we're better off as a country whose part of Europe (although we're no top dogs we still have a veto on a lot of things) then as a some small colony inside a much bigger empire.

Italy has recently defied the EU over giving state money to help out some of its Banks, Poland and other states have refused to accept refugees.
Ireland is unhappy about having to increase it contributions to the EU once Britain leaves.
Do you really think the EU is going to remain a happy camp?

I would actually like to see a free trade zone with Europe if necessary outside the EU and bring in the Commonwealth countries and BRIC nations too. No import taxes yet countries could subsidise
industries within certain limits. No freedom of movement and we could set up bodies on a pay per membership for sharing technology and other initiatives and ideas.

I agree with your earlier point about the British peoples (inc Canada, Australia and NZ) being too sentimental over the Royals.

 

[Abizzz]

That's the whole point for many people, it wouldn't be damaging the country it would be saving the country from a United States of Europe, with a Euro currency, dominated by Germany, a concept fought against in two world wars and a concept no-one in the 1970's voted for when joining the Common Market, but nevertheless over the years its has been being formed, by stealth, by sleepwalking.
The majority of people (albeit a slim one) in the UK woke up just in time.

Leaving aside immigration issues and the connotations (that even Blair has recognised, belatedly of course), the UK will never give up the Pound (Sterling) and as such would always be in division two of the EU. A 'soft' Brexit would put us in division 3, so for many its better we breakaway and form our own Premier League.

Germany never fought for a United States of Europe. The ambitions weren't some unified Europe with a Euro currency, it was world domination .

The rest of that paragraph is equally as laughable, you (and the vast majority of other brexiteers) say it formed by stealth and sleepwalking because you can't actually prove that what you are claiming is true. Even if you (and the millions of politically uninterested leave voters) had sleepwalked into it, who's fault was it that you were sleeping? Brexiteers are separating their country from a paranoid illusion much more than the actual EU . Whenever asked about an actual ramification of leaving one of the EU structures they say 'we'll stay part of that'. They've basically convinced themselves that access to the EU common market is a human right, and that the EU would be vile for denying it. The brexit government has drawn red lines that were traced by Murdoch & Dacre, some of which are completely impractical unless the UK wants to shut down all contact with the continent (There will always be courts with other nationals present whenever there's disputes between countries, let's be honest, the best thing they can aim for is that the ECJ changes it's name), and some of which it is more than two faced about (telling the public that no deal is better than a bad one while at the same time telling the EU that a deal needs to be reached, and simultaneously telling businesses that a deal WILL be reached and that they can invest accordingly).

I know i'm becoming quite condescending and hostile on this, but after 2 years of continues lies about myself, my country and the EU i've taken off the gloves. I know large parts of England feel left behind, and in a lot of ways they are justified in doing so, the EU however hasn't been the culprit and is now the scapegoat after expiring it's use as whipping boy. I, for one, would look forward to the day when Farage supporters (his followers, not his sponsors ) can compete in a free market with their Indian and Chinese counterparts, and who they'll blame then, if it wasn't for the millions and millions of decent people being caught up in this too.

 

[I Believe]

Are Labour and the Conservative parties the best option for the 21st Century to take us forward or are they too outdated and corrupt?

Yes I think they are.
Both are effectively coalitions of left and right politicians and they lost a lot of power in the early seventies, Miners strikes and other upheavals, putting up with pitifully poor management generally in British industry, and a few other things, left politicians looking weak generally.
Then up stepped two politicians, who moulded their parties in their own images. Mrs T took the Tory party by the scruff of the neck and made it work, she was really a brexiteer but found herself blindsided by Heseltine and Ken Clarke and others, on Europe. Getting the rebate was her high-water mark in the then EEC.
Of course Blair did the most harm in Europe failure to push the EU for amendment's to the freedom of movement construct led to present day problems, his arrogance ironically led to the big stick being put in Brexiteer hands a failing that will haunt him and the powers that be in the EU commission, to the day the whole edifice crumbles.

A new political dawn is rising, it may be in some degree based on party politics, 'but not as we know it Jim'

 

[I Believe]

The rest of that paragraph is equally as laughable

Glad you find it entertaining, incidentally I know because I lived through it, I was one of the ones deceived and misled and true I never read the fine print...but I have now!

I know i'm becoming quite condescending and hostile on this

Really, I hadn't noticed, you are of course entitled to hold opinions that are wrong.

Sorry but since you don't explain about yourself, your position, its difficult to know what you mean by 2 years of lies, etc.

 

[Full bodied red]

I don't get this at all. The Europeans are far closer to us in terms of values and culture than the US. The EU is also far less divided than the US, which is basically cut completely down the middle between hardcore conservatives and centrist conservatives with some socially liberal values.

It's cut completely down the middle at the moment because, like the UK referendum about EU membership, the ' know alls ' of the political classes ignored the opinions and aspirations of the majority.

I'm no Trump lover - I don't believe he can deliver even half of what he says he can - but at 67 years old, I've seen the USA as a permanently reliable friend and ally and help when needed.

And has so often has been said - without the USA, the UK would not be in even the World's Top 20 economies, let alone the world's 5th / 6th largest economy.

 

[The Outsider]

Yes I think they are.
Both are effectively coalitions of left and right politicians and they lost a lot of power in the early seventies, Miners strikes and other upheavals, putting up with pitifully poor management generally in British industry, and a few other things, left politicians looking weak generally.
Then up stepped two politicians, who moulded their parties in their own images. Mrs T took the Tory party by the scruff of the neck and made it work, she was really a brexiteer but found herself blindsided by Heseltine and Ken Clarke and others, on Europe. Getting the rebate was her high-water mark in the then EEC.
Of course Blair did the most harm in Europe failure to push the EU for amendment's to the freedom of movement construct led to present day problems, his arrogance ironically led to the big stick being put in Brexiteer hands a failing that will haunt him and the powers that be in the EU commission, to the day the whole edifice crumbles.

A new political dawn is rising, it may be in some degree based on party politics, 'but not as we know it Jim'

Agree and like your writing style, it appears like we need a political Dr. Spock to tell us what we need to do.

 

[devilish]

Italy has recently defied the EU over giving state money to help out some of its Banks, Poland and other states have refused to accept refugees.
Ireland is unhappy about having to increase it contributions to the EU once Britain leaves.
Do you really think the EU is going to remain a happy camp?

I would actually like to see a free trade zone with Europe if necessary outside the EU and bring in the Commonwealth countries and BRIC nations too. No import taxes yet countries could subsidise
industries within certain limits. No freedom of movement and we could set up bodies on a pay per membership for sharing technology and other initiatives and ideas.

I agree with your earlier point about the British peoples (inc Canada, Australia and NZ) being too sentimental over the Royals.

The eu is far from perfect and in my opinion had grown too big, too quick something the UK agreed upon only to then bail out. However there are positive things too. After brexit we got rid of the only country who held the US interest at higher regard to that of europe. The eu is now a group of nations who disagree with one another but who is within their interest to make this project work

With the US becoming so hostile against europe + china, india and co getting their shite sorted we simply have to make this project work. Individual European countries are just too small to go toe to toe against the big guns alone. This is our only chance for europe to remain relevant on the world scene. Failure in doing so will mean becoming easy prey to the big guns No wonder why putin and trump would love to see the project fail.

The uk is a prosperous nation but like all european nations its just too small to be relevant. How can the UK demand anything from the US when its 1/3 the size of Texas? What can it give to this superpower that it cant live without? Brexit UK will soon learn the hard way what it means negotiating a trade deal that it needs more then the other party does. Malta has been in that situation as part of the empire and it aint pretty

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Fair point....

Although I'd prefer the UK and France to be the 51st and 52nd States of the USA than the 27the and 28th States of the USE.

Why ?

The USA 300 million people and has the natural resources and military strength and combined will to succeed on a global stage.

The USE ?

Hopelessly divided about the present and the future.

You can leave France out of the USA, thank you very much. It's a race between the US and the UK who can be first to cause the most damage to their own country.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Looks as if we're stuck with feudal germanic overlords. Seems like Bringbacknani has made a reappearance.

 

[I Believe]

However there are positive things too.

Yes there are, but not enough for the UK to remain.

The EU will be dismantled now, but from the outside not within, it is impossible for it to re-invent or reform itself from the inside. I worked for 5 years for the EU, it was corrupt then (why I left) and its gone into itself now, totally insulated against change, too many know where the bodies are buried, to much too lose.

We need to start again, Britain should invite those like minded European countries to secede from the EU and form new Common Market that is about trade only.

 

[The Outsider]

The eu is far from perfect and in my opinion had grown too big, too quick something the UK agreed upon only to then bail out. However there are positive things too. After brexit we got rid of the US mouthpiece (which created all sort of obstacles to further integration) and most countries seem to be quite determined to make the project work.

With the US becoming so hostile against europe + china, india and co getting their shite sorted we simply have to make this project work. Individual European countries are just too small to go toe to toe against the big guns alone. This is our only chance for europe to remain relevant on the world scene. Failure in doing so will mean becoming easy prey to the big guns No wonder why putin and trump would love to see the project fail.

The uk is a prosperous nation but like all european nations its just too small to be relevant. How can the UK demand anything from the US when its 1/3 the size of Texas? What can it give to this superpower that it cant live without? Brexit UK will soon learn the hard way what it means negotiating a trade deal that it needs more then the other party does. Its aint pretty

The part with the EU growing too big too fast was because it was politically driven probably by the US with compliant EU bureaucrats while Russia was caught offguard.
In recent times there does appear to be a divergence between the EU and the US yet do not forget we still live in the peace of WWII with lots of US military bases in Europe!

I take your point about negotiating trade deals with the US, I lived down under for three years and there was moaning about trade deals with the US yet you never got the detail.

I used to work for a US multi-nat and they talked about EMEA even though there were no branches in Africa or the Middle East yet I think they were planning for an empire of that size and that is why so many immigrants / refugees were allowed into places like Germany.

 

[Bury Red]

Thanks interesting example, though ideally if we wanted civil engineers and couldn't train ourselves there is no reason why we cannot subsidise their training elsewhere or bring in the skilled labour.

We can and do train our own Civil Engineers although far fewer than we need due to the shit conditions in the UK. We don't pay well enough to keep them so many like myself who do train head overseas for bigger, more interesting projcts and better pay and conditions leaving the poorly planned and underfunded infrastructure projects in the UK to creak along with low cost staff often brought in from elsewhere. The ERASMUS training I got was to learn how things are done elsewhere and force you to exist in another language both of which were valuable skills I would not have got in the UK, the fact Grenoble where I studied is the most specialised Uni in geotechnical engineering is the reason I have never been short of work and have been able to rise above the pitiful wages in the UK industry although I'm now consulting for manufacturers selling into the industry as despite the desperate shortage of qualified and experienced engineers in the UK I was not prepared to take a 60% pay cut and still pay more tax than I had in Asia so we could settle back at home.

Below I have collated some of my ideas about the Brexit vote as I am interested to see from those in the North West if the issues are the same.

I can only speak for the South, yet the people I know largely voted Brexit for a number of reasons.

Both around culture and probably globalisation.

Culture – increased crime and so many foreign voices on the streets making Brits (especially older ones) feel like foreigners in their own country. This is multi-faceted not just due to the EU yet thanks to politicians and the media saying that due to ECHR we could not change anything this fuelled the anti-EU rhetoric.

Perception and reality are a long way apart, especially if you listen to the likes of Dacre and Murdoch who love to keep people scared of the invading foreign hordes. As you can see above crime statistics in the UK actually show a consistent fall from the mid 90s onwards, maybe it was all our criminals buggering off to the Costa.

Since these foreign types speaking their own languages on our streets seem to be of a less criminal bent than the Brits alone were in the "good old days" maybe we could take the opportunity to learn other languages, cuisines and cultures rather than cowering in fear from "je ne sais quois".

Globalisation, a huge loss of jobs via outsourcing since the banking crisis and also with workers being brought in by multinationals from Asia (banking, Insurance, computing) not seen as a skill shortage yet decreasing salaries. Not particularly the fault of the EU yet the feeling appears to be we cannot control anything while we are in the EU because of what we have been told about the ECHR.

Again, it's perception since the statistics show that our unemployment rate has fallen steadily since the crisis, much faster than the EU. The changes in job demographics and salaries are down to our own government, not the EU and if we applied all the EU workers protections our unemployment rate might be higher but our average wage and working conditions would be considerably better.

What British mismanagement and heavy handed unions started in the 70s pre our entry into the EU Thatcher finished not long after by killing off the UK manufacturing industry and turning us into a service economy. I'd far rather we'd retained the old job mix and see this as the main bugbear most working class Brexiters have but it's not the EU to blame, it's the likes of Thatcher, Blair and May.

Infrastructure pressures – schools, houses and hospitals.

Funded, or rather underfunded by UK central government, school and hospital closures and mergers and the selling off of council housing stock to patch up inadequate budgets are not the fault of the EU or migrants. The still low percentage of migrants into the UK are not adding that significantly to what was already a crisis and in most cases are actually helping out by working in the NHS, housebuilding, education etc.

Before Brexit the debate centred around how we needed skilled EU migrants and only after the referendum did unskilled EU labour enter the debate.

You weren't listening to the same debates I was then, it was all about Romanian's stealing our fruit picking jobs and Poles washing our cars. The problem is who will do those jobs if/when we close the doors? We've got the unskilled part down but the labour bit is still a mystery to many Brits.

A fair number of articulate people did well out of the EU – senior finance people, property developers, college managers and some that successfully moved to Europe yet it seems so many more did badly, fisherman, hotel workers, removal men, café and restaurant workers, hospital porters, postman, refuse men, trades people. Now add to that the white collar jobs lost due to globalisation, the self-employed losing their clients and the police dealing with waves of EU criminals needing translators at £150 per call out as well as dealing with disaffected descendants of earlier waves of immigration, farmers having livestock stolen, churches having lead stolen from roofs and railway tracks stripped of wire and you can start to understand the rising tide of anger.

The UK in the EU rose from being the sick man of Europe to one of the most prosperous nations on earth again, the financial crisis saw us dip as everybody else did but our recovery was quicker and more pronounced than most until the downturn brought about by the Brexit vote. Our fishing industry is in crisis, but it's the same story everywhere else in the world due to overfishing, pollution and climate change. Was it the EU that sold off the Post Office or privatised local refuse collections? How is the EU responsible for the stagnation of the salaries of our service workers, the rules are there to ensure employers adhere to fair pay and contracts and enforced in the rest of the EU but our government has chosen to let business decide that wage deflation and zero hour contracts was the way to go. Tradesmen have suffered, you're having a laugh, I know all the lies about Polish plumbers etc but I've yet to meet a poor tradesman in the UK and every one I know is so overloaded with work that it's practically impossible to get one to come out these days. As for the rest, it's all the usual tabloid lies.

 

[devilish]

Yes there are, but not enough for the UK to remain.

The EU will be dismantled now, but from the outside not within, it is impossible for it to re-invent or reform itself from the inside. I worked for 5 years for the EU, it was corrupt then (why I left) and its gone into itself now, totally insulated against change, too many know where the bodies are buried, to much too lose.

We need to start again, Britain should invite those like minded European countries to secede from the EU and form new Common Market that is about trade only.

When politics is involved there will always be corruption. I doubt that the tories gave 1b to the dup out of a carefully planned strategic plan

Regarding your second comment the uk has been doing that for months. In malta we had Farage suggesting a sort of union among commonwealth nations. He was laughed off. Why on earth would we leave europe to rejoin a sort of empire mark 2 were everything is heavily staked towards the big guns? Why would we open our market and get little to nothing out of it in exchange? Not everyone is keen to self harm

 

[Full bodied red]

You can leave France out of the USA, thank you very much. It's a race between the US and the UK who can be first to cause the most damage to their own country.

OK....Just our bit....

 

[I Believe]

When politics is involved there will always be corruption

Really, is that acceptable then? Perhaps you do things different in your neck of the woods?

I doubt that the tories gave 1b to the dup out of a carefully planned strategic plan

No, out of a tactical necessity and done in the full glare of national and international publicity.

The EU has around 15 years of unaudited accounts, no one gets to see these accounts, only the EU Commissioner's, this what you mean by political corruption?

 

[devilish]

Really, is that acceptable then? Perhaps you do things different in your neck of the woods?



No, out of a tactical necessity and done in the full glare of national and international publicity.

The EU has around 15 years of unaudited accounts, no one gets to see these accounts, only the EU Commissioner's, this what you mean by political corruption?

Is that how buying votes for the Tory government to survive another day is called these days? What about going head long into the Iraqi war despite knowing fully well that there's no WMDs? Is killing thousands of innocent based on a lie considered a tactical necessity too?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Really, is that acceptable then? Perhaps you do things different in your neck of the woods?



No, out of a tactical necessity and done in the full glare of national and international publicity.

The EU has around 15 years of unaudited accounts, no one gets to see these accounts, only the EU Commissioner's, this what you mean by political corruption?

More Brexiteer tripe, your facts seem to be way off the mark

Here's 2015 report - 300 odd pages of light reading for you
http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/annualreports-2015/annualreports-2015-EN.pdf

 

[Dobba]

No, out of a tactical necessity and done in the full glare of national and international publicity.

So, if you follow the usual Brexiteer logic, you don't want your money going to people you haven't elected, unless it's to prop up a UK government?

 

[Full bodied red]

So, if you follow the usual Brexiteer logic, you don't want your money going to people you haven't elected, unless it's to prop up a UK government?

So what's wrong with the UK Government spending UK Taxpayers money on UK citizens ?

You're suggesting it would be more appropriate if they should have given it to Brussels to spend on building motorways in Lithuania or Spain ?

Is that how buying votes for the Tory government to survive another day is called these days? What about going head long into the Iraqi war despite knowing fully well that there's no WMDs? Is killing thousands of innocent based on a lie considered a tactical necessity too?

Blame Tony Bliar and Labour for that - bugger all to do with the the Conservatives.

 

[IWat]

The British are still stuck to some royal families a relic that stinks of medieval rule. Sure they are expensive poster boys but it still give the impression that if one is born out from a certain family then his very future is ensured simply thanks to his blood line. Its democratic structure is a farce. Parties can get 12.5% of the votes and still end up with just 1 seat in parliament. Not to forget that its ignores a big chunk of the voter. I am a Lib Dem/Labour voter living in a council with a strong Tory base. Therefore my vote isn't worth the paper its printed upon.

Regarding human rights....well....they had been negotiable for many many years. From having such a great weapons business with Saudi Arabia knowing very well where they will end right to invading so many countries without any reason at all (WMDs?). The very fact that the UK expect the EU to go against their own morals and still sign a deal for business sake speaks volumes about their moral compass. I wonder what will be thrown under the bus in exchange for business (ie this time round with the US) Would it be the farmers who'll have to compete with cheaper GMOs produce and chlorinated chicken? Would it be the NHS?

So no, as an outsider I don't trust the British 'human rights' rule. As an immigrant whose country know exactly what the British rule are capable of, I trust them even less.

If the UK starts making restraints on immigrants then its only fair for the EU to do the same.Most EU immigrants residing in the UK are young, they are taxpayers and therefore they give a beneficial contribution to society. Can you say the same about the UK citizens who had retired in Spain, France and beyond?

I really do not think this is going anywhere productive. So I'll give you this brief reply, you can reply if you wish, and we can agree to disagee.

I don't paticularly agree with the monarchy, nor the peerage system and I agree the voting system could do with some reform. But none of those are human rights issues. France and Germany also both sell Saudi Arabia large amounts of weapons and if we're going to go all the way back to colonialism then I also assume you don't trust the EU on human rights because let us look at Germany in the 30s and 40s, let us look at France, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands when it comes to colonialism. Yet you seem fine to have them having significant influence over EU human rights policy. It's only the UK for some reason you take issue with.

It's kind of ironic that you say "The very fact that the UK expect the EU to go against their own morals and still sign a deal for business sake speaks volumes about their moral compass." Because that's also exactly what is happening in reverse. That is the point of negotiations, to find a middle ground you can both walk away from happy.

No one is selling the NHS, that is again, something with no solid factual basis. I'm also assuming you disliked the EU for the proposed TTIP deal if you are also that concerned about the NHS?

Erm. UK citizens in Spain, France etc who went to retire over there will have their pensions paid for by the UK and any healthcare costs to those nations paid for by the UK. In some cases they probably contribute to increased house prices, which if was to a degree felt it was a negative then I would have 0 issue with them putting a cap or whatever. Yes, it would be perfectly fair for the EU to put in a system, but iff you really can't see that there would be a difference between the UK giving all already within the UK the right to remain and putting limits on new arrivals and your proposal of the EU kicking out Brits already there then I don't know what to say, and I don't think this will go anywhere.

 

[devilish]

Blame Tony Bliar and Labour for that - bugger all to do with the the Conservatives.

As said when politics in involved corruption is not that far behind

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

The part you're skipping over is that in that same period (and in large part because of our membership) we reconstructed Britain from a failing manufacturing state into a hugely successful and rich service and financial industry led country. Over the last 10 years there has been a real slump in the conditions of a lot of working people thanks to respective governments taking the side of corporations and banks, but nothing today compares to the shitshow that was Britain in the 70's. Can you even imagine what the country would do today if the government announced that they could only have electricity for 3 days a week? Or if the streets were filled with huge mounds of rubbish because no-one was collecting it for weeks? Or if the dead weren't being buried because even the grave-diggers were on strike? Nothing today compares to that, but then again people's expectations are considerably higher today than they were then.

That's what pisses me off about the Leave arguments about the amount of money we put in, they never bother to mention the huge benefits including economic benefits that we've taken back as a result. The vast, vast majority of experts have told you that leaving would be a huge economic hit, so why aren't you listening to them?

No, we didn't.

We closed down whole industries left the people who used to work in them and the communities which depended on them to rot. There was no either or choice, developing the financial service sector didn't mean ending manufacturing it's a false dichotomy and it is one of the reasons the UK voted Brexit by the way. Those areas were left without hope and cut off from the new opportunities and benefits of the growth in the well-paid service sectors.

None of which had anything to do with the EU if it did then why is France still struggling to deal with the power of its unions?

 

[Dobba]

So what's wrong with the UK Government spending UK Taxpayers money on UK citizens ?

You're suggesting it would be more appropriate if they should have given it to Brussels to spend on building motorways in Lithuania or Spain ?

Which page can I find the £1bn DUP bung in the Tory manifesto again?

 

[rcoobc]

So what's wrong with the UK Government spending UK Taxpayers money on UK citizens ?

You're suggesting it would be more appropriate if they should have given it to Brussels to spend on building motorways in Lithuania or Spain ?

Are you seriously defending the bung

 

[devilish]

I really do not think this is going anywhere productive. So I'll give you this brief reply, you can reply if you wish, and we can agree to disagee.

I don't paticularly agree with the monarchy, nor the peerage system and I agree the voting system could do with some reform. But none of those are human rights issues. France and Germany also both sell Saudi Arabia large amounts of weapons and if we're going to go all the way back to colonialism then I also assume you don't trust the EU on human rights because let us look at Germany in the 30s and 40s, let us look at France, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands when it comes to colonialism. Yet you seem fine to have them having significant influence over EU human rights policy. It's only the UK for some reason you take issue with.

As said I had the opportunity to vote twice in the GE. I did out of habit but since I am a lib dem/Labour in a Conservative stronghold my vote wasn't even worth the paper it was printed out. Now if the government cant give a feck about the voter's opinion imagine how they care about the random joe.

It's kind of ironic that you say "The very fact that the UK expect the EU to go against their own morals and still sign a deal for business sake speaks volumes about their moral compass." Because that's also exactly what is happening in reverse. That is the point of negotiations, to find a middle ground you can both walk away from happy.

I fear that the only party who is desperate for a trade deal is the UK. The EU simply wants an orderly Brexit and that the UK pays what it signs for. They might be willing to offer some sort of trade deal (like CETA) if that is agreed but by the looks of it that is really not at the top of the EU agenda.

No one is selling the NHS, that is again, something with no solid factual basis. I'm also assuming you disliked the EU for the proposed TTIP deal if you are also that concerned about the NHS?

I have a lot of friends who work in the NHS and they are all in agreement that the NHS is on buying time. Its not a matter of if anymore but a matter of when. Regarding the second comment, the TTIP collapsed for a numerous of reasons but mostly it was because the EU refused to bend over backwards to the US and their private corporations. Can you see the UK turning a trade deal with the US especially if a hard brexit occur?

Erm. UK citizens in Spain, France etc who went to retire over there will have their pensions paid for by the UK and any healthcare costs to those nations paid for by the UK. In some cases they probably contribute to increased house prices, which if was to a degree felt it was a negative then I would have 0 issue with them putting a cap or whatever. Yes, it would be perfectly fair for the EU to put in a system, but iff you really can't see that there would be a difference between the UK giving all already within the UK the right to remain and putting limits on new arrivals and your proposal of the EU kicking out Brits already there then I don't know what to say, and I don't think this will go anywhere.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...pensions-health-care-and-public-a6903211.html

All I said is that its very dangerous for the UK to start considering people as a burden especially if they happen to be citizens of the same bloc the UK is desperate to have a trade deal with. Believe it or not the two are quite related. India had already said that there's no way the UK will get a trade deal with the country unless it relaxes its rules on immigration. I strongly believe the EU thinks in the same way