I only saw Hammond but at least he admitted that no deal would be disastrous. His plan to replace the Customs Union with a barrier free trade agreement may be overly optimistic but at least shows a degree of awareness of how bad a no deal situation would be.
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I only saw Hammond but at least he admitted that no deal would be disastrous. His plan to replace the Customs Union with a barrier free trade agreement may be overly optimistic but at least shows a degree of awareness of how bad a no deal situation would be.
I've seen this a lot since the election.
Because Labour and Tory official line is pro-Brexit, Brexiteers thus assume that all voters that voted for either thus approve Brexit whereas the large majority of Tory MPs alone are pro remain.
As I've said before if I had been living in the UK who would I have voted for, no damned idea, both parties who had a chance of winning the election were not for me and what is the point of voting Libdems or Greens - they had less than no chance of winning.
Another load of nonsense.
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You mean in the same way that all voters who voted to leave the EU are xenophobic, ignorant, poorly educated, racist, UKIP voting OAPs....
Which is yet another load of nonsense but is so often peddled on here.
C'mon....
And your opinion of a cross-party Negotiaiting Team ? Who would you include from non-Tories ?
You vote for a party or leader that shares your beliefs, whether they get anywhere or not is irrelevant.
To claim 88% of the population support Brexit because Tory and Labour got that percentage of votes is a complete fabrication, the list you gave is at least partly true.
To have a cross-party negotiating team, yes, provided there was an equal representation of views, this is supposed to be for the benefit of the UK not for the benefit who those who crave being in power
What if none of them do. Why is it irrelevant, if you have no means of changing anything, you have no say at all, a pointless vote.
The two main parties who are the only ones who could get elected are divided themselves and they're both claiming that they got such a high proportion of the vote but they did only because there is nothing else not that they are so wonderful.
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Not sure I agree. Over the last decade we saw the Lib Dems get close to catching up and then almost disappear, UKIP become a force and the collapse. Just 7 years ago people were talking about the 2 party system being a thing of the past.
I think my main objection is also that when people don't vote for smaller parties they're basically saying that the status quo will never change, but by not voting they're making that a self fulfilling prophecy.
In a PR system, yes. In a first past the post, voting for one of the smaller parties in most seats is basically wasting your vote.
I don't disagree with what you said but up until I left the UK there was a third party, they didn't ever look like close to getting in but they had a say in what could happen in parliament. If you go back further from after the war until the 70s it was then again just a two party choice but then Tories and Labour were so far apart that there was a clear distinction in their policies. When the two main parties start resembling each other and half of each party start supporting the most important decision the country will make in many many years what choice do you have.
The Libdems self-destructed with the alliance with the Tories, UKIP was only about Brexit and the Greens will never ever get elected.
I don't disagree, but the future of the Lib Dems for instance is far from clear. A charasmatic new leader with little or no ties to the coalition period, and you could see a big resurgence. Even the Greens could certainly grow beyond their 1 MP given the growing effects of climate change and an increasingly environmentally aware youth who often lack the old political tribal ties.
I just look at the situation that we have now, where the parties are scrapping about looking for a partner with a few seats they can use for a majority, and think that if people did vote their consciences then a Green party with a dozen seats say, or the Lib Dems with 50 odd even could well decide the direction of the country in a future election.
That's a cop-out....
That's simply a cop-out answer....I didn't say 88% support BREXIT. I said 88% voted for the two parties who have said that they will go ahead with BREXIT.
And again, you insult those that voted to Leave....I could do the same and say a huge majority of the 48% who voted Remain were either (a) more concerned about themselves than anything or anyone else or (b) too stupid to realise that Cameron and Osborne and the others were telling absolute bollocks and lies and (c) just don't seem to understand that the vote was a simple 'In' or 'Out' vote and the majority voted 'Out' so they suddenly get all nasty and insulting to anyone who disagrees with their own personal view of the world.
But I won't.....
It's just that those who voted Leave just don't make it a personal thing
I'm not talking about just you, I've seen plenty of people saying exactly what I said on TV and in articles - alright if you want to go on what you said, say half of the Labour Party are pro-Brexit and half the Tory party are pro-Brexit that makes 44%.
Note that just before the referendum the combined total of Tory and Labour MPs declaration of their intentions was 402 for Remain and 145 for Leave.
So all Brexit voters weren't voting for personal reasons, come off it. As for believing lies as I said numerous times in the past, use one's brain, think of the consequences, that applies to remainers and leavers. As for In or Out - In meant as you were, Out means.... what does Out mean, ask a cross-section of Brexit voters and see how many different answers you get.
You have led a very sheltered life if you haven't seen at least as many insulting remarks to Remainers or is it Remoaners.
One of the favourites being "You lost, suck it up" - I wonder who really lost.
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In 5 years time , after the consequences of the previous 6 or 7 years become apparent maybe it will change again by some miracle the government lasts that long. If May lasts a year that would be a miracle in itself. Under normal circumstances she'd already have gone but no-one now really wants her job
I won't argue with what you say about percentages. I was merely pointing out that 88% voted for the two parties now committed to leaving the EU - I never said 88% of people voted to leave or support leaving. Subtle difference. Any really deeply committed Remainer could have voted LIbDem / Green or SNP, even, but they didn't, so can I suggest that the time for Remoaning is over. They've had a second chance to right what they believe was a wrong decision, but decided against it, or, again, were in a minority.
How many more times / opportunities to vote do they want ? Best of five, best of seven ?
The other bit about 'In ' and 'Out' probably sums it all up. More people decided that the uncertainities of 'Out' were better than the certainties of 'In'. For whatever reason(s) they decided that as the EU will not change, then it was time to change the UK's position within the EU. Genuinely like a divorce, I suppose, you ask the person to change, the answer is a No, so you have to decide whether to be unhappy the rest of your life or quit, run, and try something else.
Well that's how I see it....
Risky ? Certainly....
Disaster ? Who knows....Could be a disaster for both the UK and the EU, or just the UK, or just the EU. All of us on here think we know the answer, but do any of us really know the answer ? No we don't, and it's madness and arrogance to pretend we do.
And finally....All-in-all, I'd rather have someone tell me to merely 'Suck it up' rather than be accused by someone who has never met me of being a xenophobic, ignorant, poorly educated, UKIP voting, racist ( don't mind the OAP bit. cause I am drawing a couple of pensions in addition to working ) just because I don't agree with them about BREXIT. Maybe you're just more easily offended than me.....
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As I've said in previous posts voting LibDem or Green would have been a waste of time so remainers are not necessarily in a minority so no-one knows, this election seemed more of a vote of damage limitation because they knew there wouldn't be a second referendum.
If you took the MPs who were pro-Remain prior to the referendum 73% were pro-Remain so ... which MP do I vote for - the one that is pro-Remain, oh good he's been elected - well that went well, didn't it.
You could take a chance of running across a busy motorway without looking left or right, there's a small chance you won't get hit but logic says you will.
Nobody knows what the actual outcome will be exactly but I fail to see how British people's lives are going to improve. Personally leaps into the unknown would not be my choice.
As for insults there are many about, and I chose a milder one for an example but personally if people called me names I couldn't care less but some people do get offended.
Anyway talks start tomorrow, let's see how this pans out and how the mood changes or not as they progress
You may see it as that but I don't get it, if its not going to change from the big 2 then not-many in the country share your view and you are someone with individual opinions. My mrs mearly always votes for Greens or any party that is for animal protection, its what she believes in. I will always vote left but the more left the better.
If you have no beliefs or morals yes. In a PR system you can still end up with one party rule if you get enough votes. PR is also not perfect, you will see this with mays crappy coalition.
But I wouldn't want to vote Greens or LibDems anyway or even Labour for that matter. As I said in the post above most of the MP's I might have voted for were pro-Remain - where would that have got me?
My Dutch neighbours told me last year that some 'Animal Rights Party' have actually got some MPs in the Dutch Parliament because of the Dutch voting system.
Is that right ?
No arguments from me on anything you say there....
But what about an all-party Negotiating Team ? What do you reckon ?
Personally, I'd prefer it....Will keep the crackpots from both sides under control and, better still, at the end of it all, the Government (whoever is in charge then) can genuinely say they've tried different approaches and made different concessions and this is best deal we could get / the best deal that the EU are prepared to offer.
but would you vote for party x if you shared their views but had no chance of winning?
Yes if it were an evenly balanced team
No, I'd just be out of there if all the electable parties were totally against my views and would damage my future and little chance of change in the foreseeable future. If I hadn't left the Uk already I certainly would now.
I can't live in a fantasy world where there is , in reality, no hope of what I would want to happen occurs.
I think they had / have 3. At the moment there is no dutch govt cos they are unable to form a coalition, all parties have decided not to work with geert wilders, the 2nd largest party, and I find that a joke. forget his views for a sec and realise the 'new govt' wants to ignore a large section of voters.
Since I have been here I have seen around 5 govt's collapse. The one before last collapsed when Wilders withdrew his support for Ruttes party cos he disagreed with austerity measures that would hurt the average oap, I don't see whats wrong with that. Now the greens have walked away from talks cos they disagree with Ruttes immigration policy, sound familiar?
people in the UK may think they are unique but they aren't, everywhere there are politicians that want caps on migration. call us racist if you want.
That hasn't answered my question mr politician
I did say no
Is that immigration from the EU or from outside the EU or from everywhere. When the UK realises that stopping the EU immigration doesn't stop the 190000 from outside the EU which will probably increase because of the EU issue, what will they say then.
I believe immigration within the eu is not really immigration, it's moving country by freedom of choice due to open borders. Its Rutte that wants to block non eu migrants and that goes against the greens. Personally I recognise no difference, everyone in the world should be given the chance to improve their lives and being part of a shitty club should not give you preference, in fact it should hinder you. It's such a great club where every country and everyone is equal.
Strangely enough I agree with most of what you say but I don't understand the bit about everyone should have a chance except people from the EU.
Pity the Uk have got open borders and people are flooding in from everywhere with no controls (says the government) and all those refugees they're not taking in.
Dan Hannan with some classic lies here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ssels-REALLY-think-ll-come-crawling-back.html
Stocks growing fastest in Britain (because our currency value plummeted). GDP growing (now the slowest in the G7)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ssels-REALLY-think-ll-come-crawling-back.html
Stocks growing fastest in Britain (because our currency value plummeted). GDP growing (now the slowest in the G7)
Negotiations have started now. When can we expect information to come out? The EU has said they're going to be fully transparent thought afaik.
Don't hold your breath.
I wouldn't expect any meaningful information from anyone much before Christmas....Christmas 2018, that is.
Although I'll be genuinely interested to see the differences in degrees of transparency
The so-called experts don't seem to be too worried about the future for the UK's GDP. Mind you, the same PWC were Hardcore Rmainers in the run up to the Referendum - and absolutely nothing to do with the fees they rake in as 'Advisors' to the EU, I'm sure.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/07/top-world-britain-outpace-g7-next-three-decades/
It's so frustrating. As someone who really does appreciate both sides of this, the whole thing is a joke.
During the Greece economic crisis, it was often mentioned that a government debt more than 100% of GDP was a big warning sign for that economy. I now think a government debt of 100-110% is unavoidable in the next 10 years (currently standing at 90%).
To be sure, we won't reach debt levels of that of the second world war (peaking around 250% GDP), but it would be extremely fair to say the Tories will not have substantially improved the economy since taking on the task. And if anything, I think I am underestimating the task.
All of this is going on with huge problems in the background.
There is so much "not right" with this country at the moment. Labour have offered some sort of solution, albeit one I don't really believe in. The conservatives though are offering no solution whatsoever.
I find the whole thing deeply frustrating. The rhetoric given by the leave camp has always been "you need to get behind brexit". Well, we're trying. But we can't, because the leavers are offering us nothing to improve this country.
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You know, I agree with everything you say....
Genuinely glad not to be living in the UK right now - too much devisiveness over too many things.
And certainly too much / too many spending cuts to what are essential public services.
I really don't know the answers and I don't think anyone does - it's sort of learn-on-the-job-thinking from all sides of the class divide, political divide, wealth divide, geographical divide, generational divide, ethnicity divide, etc, etc....
We have many of the same problems here - but not as deep, not as widespread, and not as, ...well... , divisive.
As I said a few weks ago....I'm just glad I was born when I was, where I was, because my generation was probably the last in Europe to enjoy a reasonably prosperous, trouble free, life, and I genuinely fear what the future holds for our daughter and son. If that sounds selfishly personal, I'll apologise, but you know what I'm getting at.
Genuinely glad not to be living in the UK right now - too much devisiveness over too many things.
And certainly too much / too many spending cuts to what are essential public services.
I really don't know the answers and I don't think anyone does - it's sort of learn-on-the-job-thinking from all sides of the class divide, political divide, wealth divide, geographical divide, generational divide, ethnicity divide, etc, etc....
We have many of the same problems here - but not as deep, not as widespread, and not as, ...well... , divisive.
As I said a few weks ago....I'm just glad I was born when I was, where I was, because my generation was probably the last in Europe to enjoy a reasonably prosperous, trouble free, life, and I genuinely fear what the future holds for our daughter and son. If that sounds selfishly personal, I'll apologise, but you know what I'm getting at.
I thought Labour was for staying in the EU, no?
Neigh (or not since the referendum). They've been toeing the line between saying we will be leaving the Single Market, and we will be staying in the Single Market. That we will be cutting immigration, and that immigration will roughly stay the same.
In short, they have the same starting point as the Tories, but are giving themselves more room to maneuver.
This was from 2 days before the referendum last year:
May was pro-remain and Corbyn didn't really say anything
Draw your own conclusions
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-mp-vote-eu-referendum-8035476
Thanks guys.
PAUL....
First time I've seen that.
What I find really interesting is that the Labour 'Leavers' include quite a few of the 'traditional' Labour MPs - Skinner, Mann, Cryer, Field. I think Corbyn probably fitted into the 'Leavers' camp as he's politically / philosophically closely aligned with those four, but....
Which way did he vote personally in the end ? Does anyone know ?
He says Remain. There's no way to know if he did or not.