Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[rcoobc]

I think the real question everyone needs to ask themselves is; what do you want out of Brexit?

Option 0 - Cancel Article 50

Negotiate some sort of "associate member access";
- We lose our vetoes on things like EU Armies, EU integration and any other EU related matters that don't directly affect us.
- We no longer would have MEPs
- We keep the Single Market
- Maybe we get back agriculture or fishing or both
- Maybe we even get to negotiate our own trade deals... whilst the EU can *also* negotiate on our behalf.
- We keep paying into the EU budget

Best Brexit - No Brexit

Option 1 - Global Britain

Free trade deals with the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada.

Bringing the commonwealth back together. Allowing most of our food to be bought from the Commonwealth instead of the EU.

Cutting red tape for foreign companies to work here. Allowing them to use the UK as a springboard for EU access. Use Brexit, not to cut Britain off from the world, but to try and open it up!

Best Brexit - Keep the Single Market. Have our own Customs Union. (soft)

Option 2 - Keep the peace in Northern Ireland

Stay in the Customs Union, allowing Northern Ireland to have no visible border with the ROI.

The rest doesn't really matter. Ireland is covered under our own treaties anyway.

Best Brexit - Keep the Customs Union. (medium)

Option 3 - Xenophobic Immigration Cut

Get us out the single market.

Get us out of EU jurisdiction.

The rest doesn't really matter

Best Brexit - Reject everything (hard)

Option 5 - UKIP

Supremacy of Parliament, full control of migration, a "maritime exclusive economic zone" around the UK's coastline, a seat on the World Trade Organisation, no "divorce" payment to the EU and for Brexit to be "done and dusted" by the end of 2019.

Let the Article 50 clock countdown and start again from scratch.

Best Brexit - War

My personal Brexit would be somewhere between Option 0 and Option 1.

I think Article 50 is a trap we should never have fallen into. A £100bn divorce bill? Isn't that insane? Most of the things we are paying for we want to keep anyway.

Northern Ireland needs to have it's own special treatment; but only really in that it would stay within the EU Customs Union (which shouldn't be too difficult).

Aside from that, take the Norway option and regain control over fisheries and agriculture whilst keeping the single market.

The only two other areas we need to regain control over are benefits and taxation.

We must be able to stop people from claiming benefits here until they have worked here for five years. An EU-wide treaty change that allowed all 28 EU nations to regain control in this area could even be possible.

On everything else the EFTA "Global Britain" route is perfect

 

[Pexbo]

Wonder if there is a site called "I am ashamed to be English"?

I think it's this one, isn't it ?

Ever considered that people have different ideas of what "being English" is?

 

[rcoobc]

Of the different options, I said on here a couple of weeks ago that if the EU really does want / need the UK as a Trading Partner, then the obvious option is for them to offer to the UK a DCFTA similar to the one it has with Ukraine and which, I think, would be accepted by almost everyone in the UK. But the UK can't demand this, so whether they will is in the EU's hands, not the UK's hands, and which is why I say the EU effectively has all the cards.

Maybe that would be the preferable option for many (free trade + access to the single market in a few areas), but is the best option we can get really the same that two countries that have had Russian induced wars, and one country that wants EU Membership anyway, has got?

Even if the EU accept our "a la carte" Single Market Access, which they repeatedly said they won't, is that really the best deal we could get?

Why not go for Global Britain?

 

[rcoobc]

Wonder if there is a site called "I am ashamed to be English"?

I think it's this one, isn't it ?

Who here is ashamed to be English?

Most of us want the UK to be hugely successful, and the best way to do that, for me, is a Global Britain with our own trade deals and being part of the EU Single Market.

 

[lewwoo]

To phrase that better, I think 85% of voters chose a party that supports a hard brexit. As the two main parties were supporting a hard Brexit, Brexit itself became a bit of a side issue with voters choosing between public spending or austerity policies. It was only really the Green Party who were pushing a soft Brexit anyway. Lib Dems were trying for a no-Brexit first and foremost and offering a second referendum.

FWIW, I actually believe we will get a second referendum once the terms are agreed. It's going to be a safety cushion of sorts. The only reason it's been denied outright is because it gives us a weaker negotiating hand as the EU can play hardball and offer us the worst deal (no deal) possible in the knowledge that a second referendum on bad terms would almost certainly see us remain in the EU. Does anyone really believe that the Government isn't capable of u-turning and deciding they will call an election referendum after all?

It could even be the Governments plan all along, considering how many remainers they have in there, get a terrible deal, put it to a vote and remain likely wins and that's that for the next 30 years.

I think there is definitely something in the theory that the tories and may threw the election on purpose to either let labour sort it all out or at worse reduce her majority so she can back track on brexit and remain in the single market. It just doesn't make sense that a career politician and her cabinet can throw away such a lead by mistake with such an awful lead up to the election. I know lets bring back fox hunting and take away everyone's inheritance by taking their parents homes. That will definitely win over the working classes!

 

[Kentonio]

Who here is ashamed to be English?

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

 

[rcoobc]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

I know what you mean, but I'd stick to being ashamed of a proportion of the 52%, rather thsb the whole bunch.

I've experienced the very worst of racist Britain recently. But i am hopeful that most leavers are not like that

 

[lewwoo]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

I understand you are angry but I've never understood the leave voters being racist argument. Last time I checked the vast majority of countries that make up the eu are of the same race as the British. Xenophobic possibly. I would argue wanting to forge trade deals with commonwealth countries and the rest of the world makes them less racist.

 

[Silva]

I understand you are angry but I've never understood the leave voters being racist argument. Last time I checked the vast majority of countries that make up the eu are of the same race as the British. Xenophobic possibly. I would argue wanting to forge trade deals with commonwealth countries and the rest of the world makes them less racist.

I'm pretty sure the trade deal they want is "we send back the brown people and you send us some stuff, thnx"

 

[Kentonio]

I know what you mean, but I'd stick to being ashamed of a proportion of the 52%, rather thsb the whole bunch.

I've experienced the very worst of racist Britain recently. But i am hopeful that most leavers are not like that

I don't think they're all racist, but I do thing they voted for an extremely stupid thing. It's just hard not to be angry. I've never had this kind of fury last for this long, its as strong now as it was 12 months ago.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I understand you are angry but I've never understood the leave voters being racist argument. Last time I checked the vast majority of countries that make up the eu are of the same race as the British. Xenophobic possibly. I would argue wanting to forge trade deals with commonwealth countries and the rest of the world makes them less racist.

Yes it's xenophobic, rather than racist with EU citizens. I would actually be interested to know what some Leavers actually believe will happen regarding immigration. I know it sounds stupid but I'm convinced a good number actually think this affects immigration from elsewhere in the world, yes it's that dumb.

Regarding wanting to forge trade deals with commonwealth countries, trade already exists with those countries. Very interested to know what additional products the Uk are going to sell and why they would want to pay higher prices for purchases just because it's the commonwealth with massively increased transport costs and extended time delays.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

Agreed, my situation is different to yours and my life is not going to be decided by some ignorant fool unlike yours but I'm furious for people like you and personally embarrassed by the whole stupid thing.

 

[rcoobc]

I don't think they're all racist, but I do thing they voted for an extremely stupid thing. It's just hard not to be angry. I've never had this kind of fury last for this long, its as strong now as it was 12 months ago.

The more I look at it, the more impossible the vote was.

So firstly, I'm a big remoaner, and let me just say the EU has some serious structural and non-structural problems.

I mean, you just have to look at some of things that got brought up a lot in the run up to the election;

Child benefit for EU migrants. EU migrants can claim child benefit for children not living in Britain. David Cameron failed to change that in EU negotiation (although he got the payment to vary on where you live). France are allowed to only pay for children in France, so how is that fair? It breeds resentment.

Road Tax. Every other country asks people using their roads to pay for them; mostly using "tolls" although Benelux had a "Vignette" system. For a long time, Britain didn't ask EU companies and nationals to pay, but British companies and nationals did have to pay (something UK businesses have asked the UK Gov to correct for years). So the UK government came up with a plan; they cut the standard Road Tax by £1000 for HGVs, and created a Road Levy to also be paid by *all* HGVs of the same £1000. So EU Companies finally have to pay to use our roads, just like in every other country. Fine right? Well it was until the EU decided it might be illegal.

VAT. The reason we couldn't zero rate sanitary products was because of the EU. Ireland can though, because they were doing it a long time ago.

Democratic Deficit. A key principle of democracy is accountability. How do you vote against an EU law you don't like being imposed? The current system of an EU Parliament and an EU Council of Ministers certainly works, in theory, but in practice, it gives rise to accusations of being anti-democratic. Much of this is the UK's fault for what it's worth. We could have used the STV to elect MEPs, but chose for Closed List Party PR. But it's a difficult system to really wrap your head around.

Unintended Consequences of Laws. This is massively overstated by the likes of the Daily Mail and the express, but is somewhat true. The EU introduce laws, like fishing quotas, max CO2 on cars, and so on. These well-intended laws have unintended consequences, such as fish being thrown back into the sea and diesel cars being bought and NOx emissions being understated. Mostly this is the UK governments fault; they are the ones that implemented it. But it does give the impression of being slow to react when silly things go wrong.

Immigration. 250,000 EU migrants arrive each and the UK Government cant stop it. This doesn't scare me, it excites me! But for a leaver with a slightly xenophobic attitude, you can see why they might be frightened.

That's not to mention Greece or the Migration Crisis.

Do I think that's enough for us to leave the EU? No. We should have worked with them to fix it.

 

[Full bodied red]

Who here is ashamed to be English?

Most of us want the UK to be hugely successful, and the best way to do that, for me, is a Global Britain with our own trade deals and being part of the EU Single Market.

I'm not so much 'Global Britain' as 'Anti-EU'.

I'm sort of proud, happy and sad all at the same time that it is the UK who had the balls to call the EU's bluff.

Proud because I'm English ( mostly ) and it's nice to see the UK again standing up for itself at long last.

Happy that someone has finally poked the EU in the eye to remind them that peoples' lives matter more than a bunch of self-serving professional politicos and their 'Project'

And sad because it might have to be the UK which suffers to ultimately benefit the other 27.

It's the last one, the sadness, which makes me want something agreed, quickly, and the Ukranian model is available ' off the shelf ' so could avoid the very worst possibilities of BREXIT.

I'm pretty sure the trade deal they want is "we send back the brown people and you send us some stuff, thnx"

Well there we go - the voice of reasoned debate.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Hasn't the UK stood up against the EU for a number of times anyway? I mean we are not part or have a rebate against a number of aspects that are mandatory for most EU members.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

I know people who voted Leave who didn't agree with the beaurochracy of the EU. Many people who voted on immigration weren't necessarily racist. They've seen their schools, hospitals and public services under massive strain because the increase in numbers wasn't been matched by an increase in investment. Average incomes haven't been going up either and more immigration generally means cheaper labour and lower wages.

It's Cameron's fault for offering a referundum on something experts should decide.

Now from an economic point of view I bet the Tories are now thinking "well if we don't have a free trade zone thats a nice little stealth tax for us"

 

[Silva]

It's the last one, the sadness, which makes me want something agreed, quickly, and the Ukranian model is available ' off the shelf ' so could avoid the very worst possibilities of BREXIT.

This is worse than the time David Moyes told our defenders to watch videos of Jagielka.

 

[Full bodied red]

This is worse then the time David Moyes told our defenders to watch videos of Jagielka.

How so ?

 

[rcoobc]

We are meant to be one of the largest countries in the world, and part of the largest single market in the world.

And we're opting for something given to countries coming out of war with Russia

A bit of a backwards step

 

[Kentonio]

I know people who voted Leave who didn't agree with the beaurochracy of the EU.

Lots of people think the bureaucracy of the EU is cumbersome and flawed. That doesn't rationally lead to 'we should leave the EU'. By all apparent indicators its like deciding the boat is leaky so you're going to jump in the sea instead.

Many people who voted on immigration weren't necessarily racist. They've seen their schools, hospitals and public services under massive strain because the increase in numbers wasn't been matched by an increase in investment.

Except they haven't for the most part. Which was why some of the areas with the very highest Leave turnouts were places with some of the lowest levels of immigration. Does that stuff happen? Sure it does, but largely because the government kept cutting funding for essential services and then trying to distract the public.

Average incomes haven't been going up either and more immigration generally means cheaper labour and lower wages.

Average incomes havent been going up because companies initially held back to allow for recovery from the global financial crisis and since then seem to have decided that 'hey we're making much more money now we don't do pay rises'. The economy grows, corporate profits rise, wages stagnate. Is that down to immigrants? When we have super low levels of unemployment?

It's Cameron's fault for offering a referundum on something experts should decide.

Completely agree.

 

[Silva]

How so ?

Just think about Ukraine for a moment.

 

[Full bodied red]

We are meant to be one of the largest countries in the world, and part of the largest single market in the world.

And we're opting for something given to countries coming out of war with Russia

A bit of a backwards step

So what's wrong with it ?

They would have had full memership if the Dutch hadn't objected to it. Instead, Ukraine has -

Tariff Free Trade...No membership fees....Free travel but no right to residence and work without a visa in both directions.

Seems to me a perfect short term solution for everyone and an easy, easy sell to the Hard Brexit supporters in the UK.

 

[Full bodied red]

Just think about Ukraine for a moment.

What in particular do you want me to think about ?

 

[Silva]

What in particular do you want me to think about ?

Starting positions before negotiations would be a good start. There are millions of Brits working in the EU and millions of Europeans working here. And we start from a position where our manufacturing and service sectors are heavily reliant on the EU.

 

[Full bodied red]

What's that got to do with the Ukraine ?


Edited to add - Sorry, I see your point about people workin in the UK and in the EU...But nothing else you maentioned seems relevant to Ukraine's deal.

 

[C3Pique]

Aren't Norway and Switzerland part of Schengen?

 

[Silva]

What's that got to do with the Ukraine ?

Ugh.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Aren't Norway and Switzerland part of Schengen?

Yes, the only countries (other than principalities) in Western Europe who are not are the UK and Ireland

 

[RedSky]

Ugh.

 

[Kentonio]

So what's wrong with it ?

They would have had full memership if the Dutch hadn't objected to it. Instead, Ukraine has -

Tariff Free Trade...No membership fees....Free travel but no right to residence and work without a visa in both directions.

Seems to me a perfect short term solution for everyone and an easy, easy sell to the Hard Brexit supporters in the UK.

And what about the 4m people on either side of the channel? Do they get to just carry on forever with their current rights completely secured? What about the money owed by the UK for prior commitments, does that get paid?

 

[rcoobc]

So what's wrong with it ?

They would have had full memership if the Dutch hadn't objected to it. Instead, Ukraine has -

Tariff Free Trade...No membership fees....Free travel but no right to residence and work without a visa in both directions.

Seems to me a perfect short term solution for everyone and an easy, easy sell to the Hard Brexit supporters in the UK.

Free Trade agreements don't normally have membership fees or the right to reside or work. So in that way, it's no different to a free trade agreement (except the visa bit). Canada and Mexico also have this arrangement with the EU (or will soon)

Instead, let's talk about access to the single market i.e. what services we can sell. Unfortunately, there are so many different sectors (literally, all of them) that it's impossible for me to even begin to go through them individually. Instead, let me please show you one chart

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nati...services-narrowed-to-21-billion-in-april-2017

The UK has a trade deficit in goods, but a trade surplus in services.

So the EU would happily accept a free trade agreement (maybe not desperate enough to do a big deal on the Brexit fee?), and then laugh when we realise how we no longer have access to their financial markets, insurance markets, legal markets, for our services.

Lack of access to the Single Market will hurt our economy.

Does the DCFTA cover enough of the single market to prevent a major collapse in one of more sectors of our economy?

 

[Full bodied red]

And what about the 4m people on either side of the channel? Do they get to just carry on forever with their current rights completely secured? What about the money owed by the UK for prior commitments, does that get paid?

People ?

Both sides have said no problem. Those already in place can continue to live / work / play where they are already.

The fly in the ointment is that the EU insist that EU residents remain subject to ECJ Jurisdiction while in the UK. As I said last week - you can't have a system where 60 million people in the UK are subject to one Jurisdiction and 3+ miillion to a different jurisdiction. That's just plain stupid. Up to the EU to sort this one out.

Exit Fee ?

Whatever should be paid needs to be paid. No arguments from me on that. But until the EU presents the bill, nobody knows whether what they're asking for is the right amount ?

 

[Full bodied red]

Free Trade agreements don't normally have membership fees or the right to reside or work. So in that way, it's no different to a free trade agreement (except the visa bit). Canada and Mexico also have this arrangement with the EU (or will soon)

Instead, let's talk about access to the single market i.e. what services we can sell. Unfortunately, there are so many different sectors (literally, all of them) that it's impossible for me to even begin to go through them individually. Instead, let me please show you one chart

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nati...services-narrowed-to-21-billion-in-april-2017

The UK has a trade deficit in goods, but a trade surplus in services.

So the EU would happily accept a free trade agreement (maybe not desperate enough to do a big deal on the Brexit fee?), and then laugh when we realise how we no longer have access to their financial markets, insurance markets, legal markets, for our services.

Lack of access to the Single Market will hurt our economy.

Does the DCFTA cover enough of the single market to prevent a major collapse in one of more sectors of our economy?

Who knows what would be covered ?

If the EU decide that, let's say, Euro Clearing can't take place outside the EU, that's their choice.

As I keep saying, they hold the cards.

But once outside the EU, the UK could potentially retaliate, if necessary, by prohibiting certain parts of the UK's public services from foreign ownership. That would certainly make Germany, France, Netherlands and Spain a little poorer.

 

[rcoobc]

Who knows what would be covered ?

If the EU decide that, let's say, Euro Clearing can't take place outside the EU, that's their choice.

As I keep saying, they hold the cards.

But once outside the EU, the UK could potentially retaliate, if necessary, by prohibiting certain parts of the UK's public services from foreign ownership. That would certainly make Germany, France, Netherlands and Spain a little poorer.

Well they hold the cards if we went down the DCFTA route. If we went down the Norway route, we'd be fine.

How would exempting UK's public services from foreign ownership make them poorer?

Exit Fee ?

Whatever should be paid needs to be paid. No arguments from me on that. But until the EU presents the bill, nobody knows whether what they're asking for is the right amount ?

Financial Times are consistently saying they're going to ask for £99.8bn

 

[MoskvaRed]

We are meant to be one of the largest countries in the world, and part of the largest single market in the world.

And we're opting for something given to countries coming out of war with Russia

A bit of a backwards step

I was about to respond to that post but you have basically read my mind. I thought the deal Norway and Switzerland have was not brilliant but a G7 nation and permanent member of the UN Security Council now looks to a bankrupt mafia state (all of 26 years old and under partial Russian occupation) for guidance on its relations with its European neighbours....

Also, the idea that more than (being extremely generous) 10% of Leave voters understood the full implications of their vote is laughable. They were sold a lie of having your cake and eating it, controls on immigration with no economic downside (in fact upside - more NHS money). And even that assumes they were responding to the actual question on the ballot paper rather than delivering a big F*ck you.

 

[rcoobc]

I wish I could explain to every Hard Brexiter just how important the export of our services, is, really there has been very little written about it.

Trade in services after an EU exit is particularly important

As an economy increasingly dominated by services (manufacturing of goods is now under 10% of GDP) what will be most crucial for the UK is what happens to trade in services.

The future trade rules on services for a country outside the EU are particularly difficult to predict.

This is because even at present for many service sector industries, the single market is far from complete and obstacles remain to true integration of the market.

There are also restrictions on cross-border trading in the digital economy, in energy markets and in capital markets.

Some of the possible alternatives are based on the trade relationships the EU already has with non-EU members.

Some of these include full access to the single market such as the relationship with Norway, or other relationships that include almost full access to the single market for goods but much more restricted trade in services (such as the agreement recently made between the EU and Canada).

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-trade-rules/

The only sensible option is to be in the EU Single Market, because that's what our services needs. We don't build cars, we don't make computers, we don't drill oil. We are a services economy.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

This just seems to me a very self-centred view of democracy. Every time we vote whether in a general election or a referendum our opinion of what matters is at risk of being ignored or imposed on others as there is always a differential price paid by individuals when policy changes and in the end govts do change policy after we vote them in.

As I understand it you don't live in the UK now. So let's assume for the sake of this argument that there is a housing crisis in the UK and it is affecting large numbers of people in the UK and migration is exacerbating the problem and that leaving the EU is the only way to stop that. (I know you don't believe this but just for the sake of the argument lets assume that the people you disagree with do believe this to be the case).

Then what you are saying in your post is that your needs outweigh their needs and you don't like it when they put their needs first.

I'm sure those who voted leave don't care about you either they have their own problems and issues and since you don't live here anymore why should they care about your opinions anyway and what hope is there that you could ever understand their problems anyway?


I can honestly say none of this is my fault as I have voted Labour, remain, Labour. I just accept that people with a very different outlook to me might vote in ways which latter harm me which is annoying but I don't take it personally and I certainly don't start hating people because of it.

 

[Kentonio]

This just seems to me a very self-centred view of democracy. Every time we vote whether in a general election or a referendum our opinion of what matters is at risk of being ignored or imposed on others as there is always a differential price paid by individuals when policy changes and in the end govts do change policy after we vote them in.

As I understand it you don't live in the UK now. So let's assume for the sake of this argument that there is a housing crisis in the UK and it is affecting large numbers of people in the UK and migration is exacerbating the problem and that leaving the EU is the only way to stop that. (I know you don't believe this but just for the sake of the argument lets assume that the people you disagree with do believe this to be the case).

Then what you are saying in your post is that your needs outweigh their needs and you don't like it when they put their needs first.

I'm sure those who voted leave don't care about you either they have their own problems and issues and since you don't live here anymore why should they care about your opinions anyway and what hope is there that you could ever understand their problems anyway?

I can honestly say none of this is my fault as I have voted Labour, remain, Labour. I just accept that people with a very different outlook to me might vote in ways which latter harm me which is annoying but I don't take it personally and I certainly don't start hating people because of it.

I spent a lot of time thinking about this exact issue, and the reason I don't think its particularly valid is purely because there is no clear advantage for the vast, vast majority of Leave voters. If Leave would have resulted in them being financially better off, or having better prospects then although I'd obviously have resented it deeply, I wouldn't have the same level of actual fury.

But none of this leads to a better outcome for them. They were told this by a huge majority of experts and politicians, and they chose to believe a clown car full of idiots like Farage, Boris and the Daily Mail instead. So basically they fecked up something hugely important to me and made their own lives worse in the process. It's the stupidity of it that makes me so angry.

 

[rcoobc]

I spent a lot of time thinking about this exact issue, and the reason I don't think its particularly valid is purely because there is no clear advantage for the vast, vast majority of Leave voters. If Leave would have resulted in them being financially better off, or having better prospects then although I'd obviously have resented it deeply, I wouldn't have the same level of actual fury.

But none of this leads to a better outcome for them. They were told this by a huge majority of experts and politicians, and they chose to believe a clown car full of idiots like Farage, Boris and the Daily Mail instead. So basically they fecked up something hugely important to me and made their own lives worse in the process. It's the stupidity of it that makes me so angry.

There will be advantages to leaving the EU for leavers. Not great ones, but some.

- Stop the decline in low wages caused by EU migration. (2)
- Reduce the pressure on housing, particularly at the lower end.
- Possibly better welfare to be available once EU Migrants can't claim them (very contentious)
- Possibly reduce the pressure on Primary School places (very contentious)

You can see why leavers voted that way.

Of course they may not realise that most goods will already be increasing in price by 20% following the crash in the pound, which will more than make up for any potential benefit.

 

[Kentonio]

There will be advantages to leaving the EU for leavers. Not great ones, but some.

- Stop the decline in low wages caused by EU migration. (2)
- Reduce the pressure on housing, particularly at the lower end.
- Possibly better welfare to be available once EU Migrants can't claim them (very contentious)
- Possibly reduce the pressure on Primary School places (very contentious)

You can see why leavers voted that way.

Of course they may not realise that most goods will already be increasing in price by 20% following the crash in the pound, which will more than make up for any potential benefit.

- Stop the decline in low wages caused by EU migration.

Not only is this not actually proven, but even if it was there's no guarantee that the economic damage caused by not having enough worker availability wouldn't vastly outbalance it.

- Reduce the pressure on housing, particularly at the lower end.

Given that the millions of EU citizens who are here won't apparently be told to leave, the government would still need to build vast numbers of new homes to catch up to the current shortage. Even if they did that, the reverse effect would be a massive house price slump which would be potentially great for new buyers and absolutely ruinous for the millions who could end up in negative equity.

- Possibly better welfare to be available once EU Migrants can't claim them (very contentious)

EU migrants are the smallest group claiming welfare benefits and tax credits (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...h-do-immigrants-really-claim-in-benefits.html)

- Possibly reduce the pressure on Primary School places (very contentious)

Like the housing, its something that only improves if the government invest massively to catch up to the existing situation. Given that they're instead cutting services, one wonders where this magic school and housing tree is going to come from.