Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
I don't know where you live in the UK, but you often say this. Do you want to expand - perhaps tell us where you live and why / how the Uk is being so horrible to either yourself, your friends and family or others close to you ? And especially why for medical professionals in particular ?

As for the cost of visas - tell us how much more the UK charges for non-EU citizens than, say Denmark or Belgium or Hungary or Estonia, because I've no idea myself but you presumably have, and then I'll either have some sympathy for you or not have some sympathy for you.

And perhaps tell us, because again I don't know, how the UK's current position re family visas is diffeent from other EU countries or, in fact, most countries.

My experience of the UK visa system has been nothing but shit. 1000 for my wife's visa, rejected on a whim the first time. I'm looking at close to 1500 for the next renewal.

I don't know about the rest of the EU. I can talk about my experience of this nation. We have a government determined to hit an arbitrary target of 100000 net migration. To achieve this they continually make visa requirements harder and seek to throw anyone they can out the country without compassion. They've designed a visa system that makes it harder for those with children to be unified with a parent.

I made a mistake in saying medical professionals, it should be non eu nationals. That aside in the future an eu nurse can choose to go through the cost of getting a UK visa or pick one of 27 other nations that won't cost anything. The NHS is fecked
 
Not only is this not actually proven, but even if it was there's no guarantee that the economic damage caused by not having enough worker availability wouldn't vastly outbalance it.

Given that the millions of EU citizens who are here won't apparently be told to leave, the government would still need to build vast numbers of new homes to catch up to the current shortage. Even if they did that, the reverse effect would be a massive house price slump which would be potentially great for new buyers and absolutely ruinous for the millions who could end up in negative equity.

EU migrants are the smallest group claiming welfare benefits and tax credits (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...h-do-immigrants-really-claim-in-benefits.html)

Like the housing, its something that only improves if the government invest massively to catch up to the existing situation. Given that they're instead cutting services, one wonders where this magic school and housing tree is going to come from.
You can understand why leavers voted leave though.

A house slump is basically needed at this point; or at least house prices to not rise for the next decade.

wmoSSYU.png


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/house-prices/the-state-of-the-uk-housing-market-in-five-charts/

Historically house prices have always been around 3-4 times annual wage. I believe we have now reached 7 x annual wage.

And yes, of course the government needs to catch up on primary schools and housing, but you can't say there aren't any potential advantages.

- From a remoaner
 
You can understand why leavers voted leave though.

A house slump is basically needed at this point; or at least house prices to not rise for the next decade.

Absolutely, but its going to hit millions of people extremely hard in the process. I don't see any real way around that.

And yes, of course the government needs to catch up on primary schools and housing, but you can't say there aren't any potential advantages.

Potential advantages sure, but they're very fluffy and full of maybes. The much bigger disadvantages and losses are much more concrete.
 
Well they hold the cards if we went down the DCFTA route. If we went down the Norway route, we'd be fine.

How would exempting UK's public services from foreign ownership make them poorer?

Financial Times are consistently saying they're going to ask for £99.8bn


We have a wonderful law here - the Government have listed what they call strategic industries and can block any takeover by non-EU companies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-takeovers-idUSBREA4D0WG20140514

And in Germany there is the famous Golden Share system for the same purpose.

https://www.ft.com/content/7dc5550a-168c-11e1-be1d-00144feabdc0

In my line of business, the EU itself doesn't permit foriegn ownership of airlines with an EU Air Operators Certificate.

https://www.ft.com/content/246e2500-9c0b-11e5-b45d-4812f209f861 Hasn't happened yet, by the way, and unlikely to happen.

See....The EU is one of the world's largest Protectionists.


If the EU insist that euroclearing can only be undertaken inside the EU - which is an obvious detriment to the UK and USA - then the UK could adopt simiar Protectionist measures with Public Services, to ensure that its infrastructure remains under UK ownership and Government control as much as possible, such as

- About 70% of London Transport's buses are owned and operated by the French, German and Dutch Governments via DB, RATP and Abiello

- Arriva bus services in the UK are owned by the German Government via DB.

- More than 60% of the UK's Train services ( passenger and freight ) are owned and operated by the German and Dutch Governments via DB and Abiello

- Of the Big 6 Energy Companies, e-on is German owned, EDF is French owned, n-power is German owned, Scottish Power is Spanish owned. Together, they're estimated to have more than 75% of the UK market.

- Almost all 100% of the UK's Councils' Waste collections are in the hands of 20 companies, . The largest is Veolia, French owned, the third largest Suez is French owned, 5th largest is FCC which is Spanish owned, 9th largest is DCC, until a couple of weeks ago was Irish owned, and 15th SAICA is Spanish owned.
It's estimated that these 5 companies have over 50% of the contracts with local councils by quantity, and 75% by value.

OK...Put together, these are not on the same scale as the UK's share of Euroclearing, but preventing foreign ownership of these operations will rattle a few cages.
 
I spent a lot of time thinking about this exact issue, and the reason I don't think its particularly valid is purely because there is no clear advantage for the vast, vast majority of Leave voters. If Leave would have resulted in them being financially better off, or having better prospects then although I'd obviously have resented it deeply, I wouldn't have the same level of actual fury.

But none of this leads to a better outcome for them. They were told this by a huge majority of experts and politicians, and they chose to believe a clown car full of idiots like Farage, Boris and the Daily Mail instead. So basically they fecked up something hugely important to me and made their own lives worse in the process. It's the stupidity of it that makes me so angry.


Or chose to, correctly, disbelieve the absolute bollocks and lies of Call Me Dave and George Feckin Gideon Feckin Osborne.
 
OK...Put together, these are not on the same scale as the UK's share of Euroclearing, but preventing foreign ownership of these operations will rattle a few cages.
I just don't really know if preventing EU companies from owning UK companies achieves anything. Like, what does that achieve?

So we're limiting our list of potential buyers, reducing final sales, because? I dont see how it makes them poorer either.

I agree that the EU is extemley protectionist (which may or may not be a good thing) and I wish the UK had been *more* protectionist when it came to selling our Crown Jewel companies... But yeah, i dont really see how it hurts them
 
OK...Put together, these are not on the same scale as the UK's share of Euroclearing, but preventing foreign ownership of these operations will rattle a few cages.

Any objection to Sterling clearing being done in the EU instead of London?

What about car manufacturers, ban foreign ownership? etc etc etc
 
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We have a wonderful law here - the Government have listed what they call strategic industries and can block any takeover by non-EU companies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-takeovers-idUSBREA4D0WG20140514

And in Germany there is the famous Golden Share system for the same purpose.

https://www.ft.com/content/7dc5550a-168c-11e1-be1d-00144feabdc0

In my line of business, the EU itself doesn't permit foriegn ownership of airlines with an EU Air Operators Certificate.

https://www.ft.com/content/246e2500-9c0b-11e5-b45d-4812f209f861 Hasn't happened yet, by the way, and unlikely to happen.

See....The EU is one of the world's largest Protectionists.


If the EU insist that euroclearing can only be undertaken inside the EU - which is an obvious detriment to the UK and USA - then the UK could adopt simiar Protectionist measures with Public Services, to ensure that its infrastructure remains under UK ownership and Government control as much as possible, such as

- About 70% of London Transport's buses are owned and operated by the French, German and Dutch Governments via DB, RATP and Abiello

- Arriva bus services in the UK are owned by the German Government via DB.

- More than 60% of the UK's Train services ( passenger and freight ) are owned and operated by the German and Dutch Governments via DB and Abiello

- Of the Big 6 Energy Companies, e-on is German owned, EDF is French owned, n-power is German owned, Scottish Power is Spanish owned. Together, they're estimated to have more than 75% of the UK market.

- Almost all 100% of the UK's Councils' Waste collections are in the hands of 20 companies, . The largest is Veolia, French owned, the third largest Suez is French owned, 5th largest is FCC which is Spanish owned, 9th largest is DCC, until a couple of weeks ago was Irish owned, and 15th SAICA is Spanish owned.
It's estimated that these 5 companies have over 50% of the contracts with local councils by quantity, and 75% by value.

OK...Put together, these are not on the same scale as the UK's share of Euroclearing, but preventing foreign ownership of these operations will rattle a few cages.

I thought we were going to become global Britain open to the world post Brexit?
 
Or chose to, correctly, disbelieve the absolute bollocks and lies of Call Me Dave and George Feckin Gideon Feckin Osborne.

Lies like when they said it would mean leaving the single market and all the Leave campaigners said that was scaremongering and Project Fear?
 
I thought we were going to become global Britain open to the world post Brexit?
Global Britain! Open Britain! Come do your business here!

Free trade deals with Europe*

Single Market Access**

Low Corporation Tax rates***

Easy to get a Visa for your workers!!!****

*EU Only
**Only for certain sectors
***15%
****Workers on certain sectors can work here.

Come to Britain today!

(All British Businesses must be 67% owned by British personnel)
 
I just don't really know if preventing EU companies from owning UK companies achieves anything. Like, what does that achieve?

So we're limiting our list of potential buyers, reducing final sales, because? I dont see how it makes them poorer either.

I agree that the EU is extemley protectionist (which may or may not be a good thing) and I wish the UK had been *more* protectionist when it came to selling our Crown Jewel companies... But yeah, i dont really see how it hurts them


Any objection to Sterling clearing being done in the EU instead of London?

What about car manufacturers, ban foreign ownership? etc etc etc


Not all and any companies - I said, specifically, those which are part of the UK's Public Services and Infrastructure, the ones fpor which Thatcher should be exhumed and shot for selling off in the first place. The ones that the Labour Party keep saying they want to re-nationalise anyway, starting with the railways.

I don't undertsand why you don't see how this would hurt them.

You mean that all these investments which they have don't turn a profit ? And that the German and French and Dutch Governments run all these buses and trains out of the goodness of their collective hearts for the charitable benefit of the poor sods who live in the UK?
 
Lies like when they said it would mean leaving the single market and all the Leave campaigners said that was scaremongering and Project Fear?


No....Like when they said there'd have to be be an emergency budget, taxes would have to rise, house prices would collapse and everyone would be in negative equity, World War 3 would start within days, etc, etc, etc....
 
Not all and any companies - I said, specifically, those which are part of the UK's Public Services and Infrastructure, the ones fpor which Thatcher should be exhumed and shot for selling off in the first place. The ones that the Labour Party keep saying they want to re-nationalise anyway, starting with the railways.

I don't undertsand why you don't see how this would hurt them.

You mean that all these investments which they have don't turn a profit ? And that the German and French and Dutch Governments run all these buses and trains out of the goodness of their collective hearts for the charitable benefit of the poor sods who live in the UK?

Why didn't they get bought by British companies then?
What about my Sterling question, not saying that I think it should or even that it would ever happen
 
No....Like when they said there'd have to be be an emergency budget, taxes would have to rise, house prices would collapse and everyone would be in negative equity, World War 3 would start within days, etc, etc, etc....

I never heard the WW3 and plague of locusts quotes but anyone with an ounce of intelligence would have dismissed it for what it was.
For the remainder I'll say Stanley's favourite phrase "The UK haven't left yet"

Instead of people believing the rubbish all politicians spout and believing newspaper opinions on all sides of the argument, why not actually use their brain, sadly the past couple of years have answered this question.
 
I've no idea how old you are, but the NHS has relied on Doctors from India, Asia and Africa, and on nurses from the Caribbean for the past 50+ years. And many of them actually went to the UK for their training before staying on to work for the NHS.

They've never been 'low benefit' as you call it - everyone working in the NHS gets the same salary for the same job, irrespective of where they come from.
Sorry you are mistaken there. There is a vast difference in the benefit entitlements of the low paid eu nationals vs the non-eu nationals. The non-eu nationals are not entitled to most benefits apart from nhs and schooling. Once we are out of the eu, the eu nurses for eg would not bother coming here and those positions will be filled by migrants from even poorer countries (who dont know the concept of state benefits). The benefit bill would be a bit lower and the british public would be getting a great deal with immigration (as they did from 1950s to 2005).

Regardless of that, if the uk is going to bring in more nurses from pakistan instead of portugal then its a bit weird to take the moral solace from the fact that we are not pinching trained professionals from the poor portugal. But maybe you were being sarcastic.

The jobs of NHS support staff and non-medical staff were traditionally done by British people. It's an eternal shame on successive Conservative and Labour governments that so many of these staff get unforgiveably low wages for the jobs they do compared to the spivs and speculators working in banks. But again, I don't believe there is any discrimination in how much these people are paid depending on their background and country of origin, and it is unfair to suggest that there is.
Its exactly that when you take into account the non cash costs to the govt.

Also, dont get your disdain for the city workers. They pay feckload of tax and cant be blamed for the govt not being able to spend it well.
 
Same way remainers think people believed the bus.

Osbourne made a a comment like "if you want to know how it is to go it alone, look at north korea"

Project fear? you tell me

Same way you say people believed the bus, if they believed the bus remainers believed Cameroon, right?

Did they? Believing that there would be a war or locusts or the UK ending up like North Korea is a bit different to believing that money would be spent on the NHS, people wanted to believe this and this was used to deflect blame onto the EU away from the shortcomings of the government.

As I said, why believe any politician, I'm pretty sure you didn't believe any of these statements from both sides.
 
I spent a lot of time thinking about this exact issue, and the reason I don't think its particularly valid is purely because there is no clear advantage for the vast, vast majority of Leave voters. If Leave would have resulted in them being financially better off, or having better prospects then although I'd obviously have resented it deeply, I wouldn't have the same level of actual fury.

But none of this leads to a better outcome for them. They were told this by a huge majority of experts and politicians, and they chose to believe a clown car full of idiots like Farage, Boris and the Daily Mail instead. So basically they fecked up something hugely important to me and made their own lives worse in the process. It's the stupidity of it that makes me so angry.

I do not want to make this personal but you don't even know what the leave vote did to you yet and my guess is it will be nothing. It's 90% certain that the UK voting leave will not affect your ability to remain living and working inside the EU post-Brexit. If it does affect you it will be because the EU countries you see as so much more progressive than the UK choose to use your predicament as a tool to exact unjustified concessions from the UK which the UK is forced to reject.

You seem to think that the reason people live in the UK is to provide you with a stable better existence in another country within the EU no matter what they perceive the cost to them is.

Your view of why they think the way they do is being warped by your desire to denigrate them for not doing exactly what you want them to do for your own perceived best interest. You duck the counterpoint that they think you are doing exactly the same. Ignoring their best interests for your own incorrect perceived best interests.

Democracy may be a bitch but it is a better shag than wanking.
 
I do not want to make this personal but you don't even know what the leave vote did to you yet and my guess is it will be nothing. It's 90% certain that the UK voting leave will not affect your ability to remain living and working inside the EU post-Brexit. If it does affect you it will be because the EU countries you see as so much more progressive than the UK choose to use your predicament as a tool to exact unjustified concessions from the UK which the UK is forced to reject.

You seem to think that the reason people live in the UK is to provide you with a stable better existence in another country within the EU no matter what they perceive the cost to them is.

Your view of why they think the way they do is being warped by your desire to denigrate them for not doing exactly what you want them to do for your own perceived best interest. You duck the counterpoint that they think you are doing exactly the same. Ignoring their best interests for your own incorrect perceived best interests.

Democracy may be a bitch but it is a better shag than wanking.

Make it as personal as you like. If you voted Leave I havent made any secret of what I think about your decision making skills. As for what you 'guess' will happen, that's exactly the point isn't it, Leave has created a huge mess of uncertainty and chaos where people like me who live abroad have no idea whether our lives might soon be absolutely turned upside down, while people in the UK have no idea whether their economy is about to be devastated. And all for some vague nationalistic and xenophobic bullshit about how great Britain could be alone.
 
Why didn't they get bought by British companies then?
What about my Sterling question, not saying that I think it should or even that it would ever happen


I think a lot of the utilities were PLC's quoted on the LSE when first sold off. They were susequently bought by foreign investors - not just other EU companies / governments eg, several water companies are owned by Malaysian ( certainly ) and Chinese ( well, Hong Kong ) banks, but the fact remains that some EU countries have used Government money ( either directly or through Government guaranteed loans ) to buy and own a significant market share of the UK's Public Services. The German Golden Share method would have prevented this, but that was far too simple for Thatcher to get her head round.

Sterling ? I'm a bit like yourself, I've no idea as I've never really thought about it. I just don't see any benefits in restricting where you can and cannot trade currency and securities, even if the EU would like us to think there is. As I understand it, the EU say that once outside the EU, the UK's standards on banking oversight might slip and so they can't risk UK based euroclearing transactions. Take that to its logical conclusion, and no currencies would be allowed to be traded oustide the currency's country.

But the EU and the ECB haven't exactly covered themselves in glory with their oversight of Italian and Spanish banks and Greek debt, so I can't help thinking it's just more EU bullying and sour grapes - but then I would.
 
I'm pretty sure you didn't believe any of these statements from both sides
Course not but I think the remainers on here believe 99% of brexit voters did, tar same brush and all.

Immigration was also a non issue for me but label me a thick racist all you like, I've not done bad out of life considering I haven't a single qualification, not bad for a knuckle dragging racist.
 
Sorry you are mistaken there. There is a vast difference in the benefit entitlements of the low paid eu nationals vs the non-eu nationals. The non-eu nationals are not entitled to most benefits apart from nhs and schooling. Once we are out of the eu, the eu nurses for eg would not bother coming here and those positions will be filled by migrants from even poorer countries (who dont know the concept of state benefits). The benefit bill would be a bit lower and the british public would be getting a great deal with immigration (as they did from 1950s to 2005).

Regardless of that, if the uk is going to bring in more nurses from pakistan instead of portugal then its a bit weird to take the moral solace from the fact that we are not pinching trained professionals from the poor portugal. But maybe you were being sarcastic.

Its exactly that when you take into account the non cash costs to the govt.

Also, dont get your disdain for the city workers. They pay feckload of tax and cant be blamed for the govt not being able to spend it well.


No...The OP said specifically that the NHS would go ape-shit for non-EU medical staff because they would cost less.

I was explaining that is not true - all NHS staff get the same salary for the same job, irrespective of nationality.

As for the spivs and speculators....If you think they're worth more to society than Medical Professionals, then you and I have a different view of the sort of the society we want to live in.
 
Course not but I think the remainers on here believe 99% of brexit voters did, tar same brush and all.

Immigration was also a non issue for me but label me a thick racist all you like, I've not done bad out of life considering I haven't a single qualification, not bad for a knuckle dragging racist.

Not for one second have I ever thought you were a racist or xenophobe , you obviously have a hatred for the EU.
I said the main reason was xenophobia, not the only reason.

Nor would I hold it against someone who had a genuine reason for voting the way they did based on real facts.
What I can't stand are people who vote through ignorance. This ignorance continues still now. It's only when reality finally hits that people may change their mind.

I'm for democracy, take the GE, it was obvious before the GE that May is a hopeless PM but she "won" the election, only alternative was Corbyn who I don't rate much either. Whatever the result , at least that decision can be changed relatively quickly.
The Brexit vote is a very long term decision - how can people make such a vital decision without being fully informed.
One doesn't expect people to be so informed thus there should never be such a decision placed in the hands of the people.
 
Not hugely surprised. The single market or the customs union were never fully explained to people during the referendum and neither appeared on the ballot paper. Idea that the vote was seen as a judgement on whether we should leave both of those was always nonsense. Support for second referendum will grow as the inevitably chaotic Brexit talks get underway.

From the EU's point of view I think they could probably play hardball for 12 months, make it look like a complete calamity for the UK government, and that'll turn public opinion around on even leaving the EU in the first place.
 
I don't really blame Brexiteers for anything rather then maybe ignorance. The Brexit campaign portrayed a situation were the EU will be desperate not to lose the UK and will therefore give them any deal they want. Leaving the single market was unthinkable and those who did hinted at the possibility portrayed a scenario were the UK government will just sit in some office signing one sided trade deal after another as desperate nations from all over the world would fight one another to pay homage to this global powerhouse. Its only fair for those who believed those lies to opt for a better deal.
 
Jesus.

Should just cancel Brexit based on that one poll


Corbyn, Starmer and Hammond have all been on TV this morning, and all three confirmed their parties' policies for the UK to leave the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union.

That's from senior representatives / spokesmen of the two parties that together polled 88% of the votes in last week's GE.

So unless you reckon the result of a telephone poll of a couple of thousand people has more deomcratic weight than the votes of about 20 million electors, cancelling BREXIT is a non-starter.
 
Certainly looks like most people don't agree with May's no deal is a good deal guff. No wonder she faltered I the election.

True. There again how many of those voters fullt comprehend that the uk wont be allowed to cherry pick a deal. Many (including remainers) see the eu like some santa claus who cant wait giving the uk what it wants if asked nicely. Its not the case
 
Corbyn, Starmer and Hammond have all been on TV this morning, and all three confirmed their parties' policies for the UK to leave the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union.

That's from senior representatives / spokesmen of the two parties that together polled 88% of the votes in last week's GE.

So unless you reckon the result of a telephone poll of a couple of thousand people has more deomcratic weight than the votes of about 20 million electors, cancelling BREXIT is a non-starter.
I agree with this man with nearly 30 years experience.
 
Corbyn, Starmer and Hammond have all been on TV this morning, and all three confirmed their parties' policies for the UK to leave the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union.

That's from senior representatives / spokesmen of the two parties that together polled 88% of the votes in last week's GE.

So unless you reckon the result of a telephone poll of a couple of thousand people has more deomcratic weight than the votes of about 20 million electors, cancelling BREXIT is a non-starter.
Those idiots have been brought up and have led their entire professional lives swearing allegiance to the "sanctity" of democracy, how the will of the people is always right and final.

It's to the point of being brainwashed but give it another few months of swinging polls and common sense may prevail.
 
Those idiots have been brought up and have led their entire professional lives swearing allegiance to the "sanctity" of democracy, how the will of the people is always right and final.

It's to the point of being brainwashed but give it another few months of swinging polls and common sense may prevail.


Agree totally with your opinion of politicos - they refer to the need to maintain democracy only when it suits them.

Common sense will only be seen to be kicking in when May allows some of the other parties to join the negotiating team(s). This would show the EU that the UK isn't as divided as it might be thinking based on the very public continuing acrimony following the referendum result.

Who ? No idea....

When ? Unlikely....

Result ? UK won't get the best agreements which could / would be available to a unified UK....