I consider anything in the Independent to do with BREXIT to be as much bollocks as you presumably consider anything in the Daily HateMail to be bollocks.
A dreadful, dreadful rag of a so-called newspaper - even worse than the Guardian.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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I consider anything in the Independent to do with BREXIT to be as much bollocks as you presumably consider anything in the Daily HateMail to be bollocks.
A dreadful, dreadful rag of a so-called newspaper - even worse than the Guardian.
1) Not everyone raises capital through the stock exchange
2) Countries with much higher corporation tax then us have successful businesses
3) I'll repeat that in a competitive environment a company cannot raise prices to pay for corporation tax. Nothing you've said challenges this point
How about a right wing rag?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...oming-uk-falls-96-per-cent-since-brexit-vote/
Agree....That's worrying for people in the UK.
On the other hand, the people in Portugal, Spain, Greece, Poland, Malta, etc, might welcome the fact that their own hosptals will now have sufficient nurses to meet their own needs.
Too many REMAINERS seem to ignore the effect that by pinching / encouraging Health Professionals to leave their own countries ( who, most likely, also paid for their education and training ) to work in the UK, those countries are short of good, qualified staff and have to import them as well.
Capital from private investors is even more mobile. If you had said that the listed insurers might be able to raise the capital on exchanges it would still had made some (albeit minuscule) sense.
Yes, with higher prices as was initially suggested.
What I have posted rips this narrative to shreds actually. You only have to be able to understand it.
Again in the simplest of terms, those putting the capital in (risky) financial businesses expect a commensurate level of return. If the corporation tax eats into those returns the prices will rise. And if you think that someone else will come in to provide capital for a lower rate of return, then no unless its the govt. which is way too broke to even consider it.
I do admire how remainers are spinning the election result to mean a rejection of hard brexit. Firstly Corbyn and the labour party said brexit meant leaving the single market and customs union which as far as I can make out is hard brexit. So that means 85% of the electorate voted for hard brexit parties at the election (tories, labour, ukip). Everyone had the chance to vote lib dem or greens to support a soft brexit or a complete u turn on the result.
Also the way the left wing press are gleefully celebrating the collapse of ukip. Ukip were inconsequential in this election because leavers presumed they would be getting brexit as was set out from the beginning. Do they believe that if promises on brexit are now reneged on by the political elite that pissed off leave voters wont swarm back to ukip in their millions?
Also the way the left wing press are gleefully celebrating the collapse of ukip. Ukip were inconsequential in this election because leavers presumed they would be getting brexit as was set out from the beginning. Do they believe that if promises on brexit are now reneged on by the political elite that pissed off leave voters wont swarm back to ukip in their millions?
Absolutely this.
And to repeat for God knows how many times - there is no choice of Hard Brexit or Soft Brexit available to the UK no matter how much some of you guys on here bitch about it.
The eventual type and terms of BREXIT is entirely in the hands of the EU and, then, how many of the REMAINERS will then knuckle down and make the most of what ever the UK is able to make of its future outside the EU.
The alternative, of course, is for those still in the UK who think their lives will collapse after BREXIT is to come live here inside the EU - there are plenty of us here on this thread who made that decision in the past. I don't think any of us actually regret it, although there are couple of us who dislike the EU ( not the countries where we live ) with same the passion as the rest of you love it.
Agree with the first part.
We had the choice of living in part of the EU. Will people have the same choice after Brexit? Maybe people don't want to leave the UK but still have the benefits of the EU. What if the EU becomes like the UK and doesn't want those pesky foreigners? What happens if the predictions actually become reality, wonder who will be complaining then.
How about a loan? You seem to have forgotten that source of capital. You've narrow knowledge of a specific type of business model and are pretending like it's the only way
Fundamentally wrong, no profit and loss sheet will have corporation tax in the costs column.
I understand what you're saying, but capital does not attract uniform returns
No they will just go elsewhere in the EU or the world. Also I belive many of these countries produce an excess of these professions. (There's a lot of Spanish vets around for this reason).
Brexit is making this country an unpleasant place to live for medical professionals, and it's those who'll need the NHS that will pay the price
Why would anybody want to stay in the UK? Low taxes perhaps?
I've absolutely no idea. However, at the moment people have a choice.
Indeed they do and should make the move is being an eu'r is more important than anything else in life. having said that, most of the people I work with hold non eu passports so its not the end of the world.
How does anyone make a decision about their next move/future , no-one knows what will be the situation in one year, 2 years, 5 years time.
Uncertainty. This bewildered me more than anything - how can people vote for something when they have absolutely no idea what they are actually voting for.
Its not just about being in the EU. This country treats non EU nationals horribly, getting a Visa is expensive, getting one for a spouse even more so. This nation might be happy to accept a nurse but what if his or her spouse doesn't have a required skill? This is the future for EU nationals after Brexit.
So first we trigger article 50 and after we have elections to bolster May's hand when we negotiate ?
Now we start Brexit negotiations on Monday and get a strong and stable government on Wednesday ?
Cool.
Now we start Brexit negotiations on Monday and get a strong and stable government on Wednesday ?
Cool.
Yeah no insurance bonds are not a source of capital. They have many other purposes like hedging and such but not a source of capital.
Wrong, but good that you put this down. This seems to be primary source of your confusion. Check a sample pnl statement online and you will know why taxes are a cost and get passed on to the customer in the end anyway.
This point would make a lot more sense if the brexiters were not planning to go ape-shit after south-asian and african doctors and nurses post brexit. Essentially the people you can bring in on low benefits compared to the ones from eu. Right now it just sounds daft.
Profit before tax/profit after tax. I'm not confused. It's not a cost
Shooting themselves in the foot seems to be popular within Tories. Cameron promised referendum to get elected and it led to his resignation. May promised strong hand and called for election which led to her losing majority. I'd be wary of what she proposes next.
Plus the fall of UKIP. Brexitland is beginning to sound like Deadwood.
Why the use of capitals? Bizarre.
Of course there is
You don't think the UK Government has any say?
You think it's all a show? Just a massive game being played by every UK Politician to win and lose votes?I don't want to talk about it, but my job depends on being in the single market (although I'm looking for a new one).
Really don't have a clue what you're on about really.
I detest this logic. I'm a remainder and I'm already knuckling down and working hard. And now due to the selfishness and xenophobia of a large group of either poorly educated or poorly advised people my livelihood (in automotive engineering) is likely to get a whole lot harder. My partner and I's plan to start a family is now on hold as there is a fair chance Brexit will cost me my job.
Everybody in the UK had the choice - the majority voted to leave. Too many Remainers just don't seem to want to believe that or want get to
over it.
But the EU doesn't want those pesky foreigners from outside the EU as it is. Morocco - yes we'll give you almost €1.5 billion to get your country up to EU standards....Yes we'll let you sell your products to us Tariff Free or almost Tariff Free...But no, you can't come and live here....I suspect the EU will eventually treat the UK exactly the same as the UK treats the EU. You have a job to go to, and an employer reference / support, and we need you, then we'll give you a work permit and residence visa if you're a non-EU citizen. That's essentially how it works now both in the EU and in the UK for anybody who wants to work in the UK and EU today. I don't think that either the UK or the EU will change from that.
I don't know where you live in the UK, but you often say this. Do you want to expand - perhaps tell us where you live and why / how the Uk is being so horrible to either yourself, your friends and family or others close to you ? And especially why for medical professionals in particular ?
As for the cost of visas - tell us how much more the UK charges for non-EU citizens than, say Denmark or Belgium or Hungary or Estonia, because I've no idea myself but you presumably have, and then I'll either have some sympathy for you or not have some sympathy for you.
And perhaps tell us, because again I don't know, how the UK's current position re family visas is diffeent from other EU countries or, in fact, most countries.
Amongst all their lies and obfuscation, Cameron and Osborne and plenty of others said repeatedly - If you vote to leave the EU you are voting to leave the Single Market.
Amongst all their lies and obfuscation, Johnson and Gove and plenty of others said repeatedly - If you vote to leave the EU, you are voting to leave the Single Market.
In fact, the only truth that ANY of them came out with was - If you vote to leave the EU, you are voting to leave the Single Market.
As for the future....Jeez, I wish I knew myself what's going to happen even next month, not 2 or five years from now. Everyone has to make decisions, whether to change jobs, change house, and for you and me, it was whether to change the country we were going to live in. Those who think the change is too big of a risk, usually decide to stay with what they have. Those who think that a new job will improve their career, or a new house will be a good investment, or my life will probably be better in Australia than the UK, take the chance.
I've no idea how old you are, but the NHS has relied on Doctors from India, Asia and Africa, and on nurses from the Caribbean for the past 50+ years. And many of them actually went to the UK for their training before staying on to work for the NHS.
They've never been 'low benefit' as you call it - everyone working in the NHS gets the same salary for the same job, irrespective of where they come from.
The jobs of NHS support staff and non-medical staff were traditionally done by British people. It's an eternal shame on successive Conservative and Labour governments that so many of these staff get unforgiveably low wages for the jobs they do compared to the spivs and speculators working in banks. But again, I don't believe there is any discrimination in how much these people are paid depending on their background and country of origin, and it is unfair to suggest that there is.
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Much easier for me to say than for you to believe, but genuine sympathies if you think your job is at risk.
But I'll repeat what I said earlier - if you think that your job is at risk because you think that your employer is going to be affected by Tariffs ( both into the UK and out of the UK ) for cars and car components, then that really is in the EU's hands. We all know that the UK would happily do a deal tonight to continue Tariff free import / export of vehicles and vehicle components with the EU.
Will the EU accept that ?
Well they might, as Tariffs on vehicle imports / exports between the UK and the EU will almost certainly hurt French / German / Swedish / etc car manufacturers more than the UK car maunfacturers. And certainly truck manufacturers. Cars imported into the EU from Korea, for example, no longer have Import Tariffs.
On the other hand, they might not. As a guide, the EU impose zero Import Tariffs on cars and car components from Korea, but betwen 4% and 10% on cars and components from Japan. They also impose Import Tariffs of 10% on cars and components imported from USA even though in the USA, cars manufactured in the EU have only 2% Import Tariffs - which is obviously what pisses of Trump when he goes on about a level playing field.
So there's no consistency in what the EU does in this respect to think one way or the other what will happen.
I'll wish you good luck - even though I do take exception to your comment of due to the selfishness and xenophobia of a large group of either poorly educated or poorly advised people as the description of people who didn't happen to share the same views as yourself at the Referendum. Such as myself !
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[QUOTE="rcoobc, post: 21064945, member: 53729"]Of course there is
You don't think the UK Government has any say? You think it's all a show? Just a massive game being played by every UK Politician to win and lose votes?
I don't want to talk about it, but my job depends on being in the single market (although I'm looking for a new one).
Really don't have a clue what you're on about really.[/QUOTE]
Please educate us then.
You don't think the UK Government has any say?
You think it's all a show? Just a massive game being played by every UK Politician to win and lose votes?I don't want to talk about it, but my job depends on being in the single market (although I'm looking for a new one).
Really don't have a clue what you're on about really.[/QUOTE]
Please educate us then.
There’s no denying that the EU hold most of the cards. Having said that, it’s the UK who decides what sort of relationship it wants with the EU. No one is kicking the UK out of the EU. No one is kicking the UK out of the single market or the customs market either.
Unlike what Brexiteers say the EU is not a one fits all union. There are various options one can choose which include EEA membership, the Swiss model, Custom’s Union membership and CETA. The only 2 restrictions the EU had insisted upon is for the UK to settle its debts and to adhere to an off the shelf solution. The latter isn’t even a restriction but an advice. Trade deals are complex and reinventing the wheel will take years, something the UK doesn’t have.
Following the Brexit win, the UK should have gone to the EU with a simple choice. The people had spoken against the present deal and unless there are changes in it then the UK will have no choice but to leave. That would put the ball in the EU court were they either choose to give the government more concessions which would pave the way for a second referendum or they would have to negotiate a lengthy and painful divorce no one really want and with no idea when this divorce proceeding will start. I believe that Boris flirted around this idea fairly early in the Brexit campaign.
Instead the UK is left with a mess, with article 50 being activated without any plan what to do next and with the UK basically closing the door on everything (single market, customs market etc)
You don't think the UK Government has any say?
I don't want to talk about it, but my job depends on being in the single market (although I'm looking for a new one).
Really don't have a clue what you're on about really.
I'm not quite sure what's so hilarious, but then the smilie thing rarely works. I think what Full bodied is saying is indeed that it is for the EU to decide the nature of any deal short of a hard brexit. Looking at free trade, if they decide to ask for a financial or political price that's too high for the UK to pay then that's the end of the matter. The same goes for the customs union or anything else, it's really in their hands. Pre-referendum much was made of the German need to sell us BMWs, well they may consider that, or they may decide their own political project is more important, but whichever that's their choice, the UK is merely waiting to find out what that choice is.
Here's the rub. The UK is nowhere near as capable (or willing it seems) of getting a tariff free deal as the other countries, as no doubt concessions will have to be made. All this no deal is a good deal stuff is bollocks and just indicates that the Tories are not willing to negotiate on any points, not that they care but a no deal situation will render businesses across the country uncompetitive overnight.
Also when I say a large group of people I don't refer to all leave voters, just the ones who think voting leave will mean they don't see brown people on their high street, or ones like my mum who believe they're being ruled by Germany despite not being able to point to one example of EU meddling in her life.
That's just essentially saying that the EU has a de facto veto in any area, because they can make the negotiations so ridiculous that they break down completely. It's not the same thing as saying that "there is no choice of Hard Brexit or Soft Brexit available to the UK."
Because of course there is. (I will reply to his next post in a moment).
You've mentioned free trade, but free trade should have nothing to do with a soft or hard brexit at all. A free trade deal is inevitable, as it benefits both sides, the only question is in time lines.
The EU does have a de facto veto, yes, that is what I'm saying, whether we consider it ridiculous or not.
I don't suppose there's a dictionary definition of soft brexit, but I think most people do think of it as involving a degree of free trade, however if you don't then fair enough.
There will no doubt be all sorts of deals in the decades and centuries to come, but I'd worry about the next few years first.
I don't suppose there's a dictionary definition of soft brexit, but I think most people do think of it as involving a degree of free trade, however if you don't then fair enough.
There will no doubt be all sorts of deals in the decades and centuries to come, but I'd worry about the next few years first.
@Full bodied red
Re - what they voted for - does the average person knows what "leaving the single market" actually means in real terms - that sterling will fall, prices will increase, inflation will go up, unemployment increases and an endless stream of other disadvantages - is this what they really voted for - I wasn't born yesterday - this was not the main reason.
If Brexiters are so keen to leave the single market why are they so interested in getting a deal, why not just leave, why not last year, why not now, just go - after all supposedly the EU needs the UK more.
It is just an endless stream of nonsense.
Re the future, under normal circumstances people have at least a vague idea of what the future holds, there are some things that one knows are a given , here there is nothing, no certainty whatsoever.
Re Morocco, they aren't in Europe, the EU want the countries who want to deal with the EU to be up to the standards of the EU and help them to achieve this.
For the remainers to be right, remember they don't want to be right, is for the predictions to become reality and so far it is exactly as I thought other than the timing which is being so dragged out by the government.
Re - what they voted for - does the average person knows what "leaving the single market" actually means in real terms - that sterling will fall, prices will increase, inflation will go up, unemployment increases and an endless stream of other disadvantages - is this what they really voted for - I wasn't born yesterday - this was not the main reason.
If Brexiters are so keen to leave the single market why are they so interested in getting a deal, why not just leave, why not last year, why not now, just go - after all supposedly the EU needs the UK more.
It is just an endless stream of nonsense.
Re the future, under normal circumstances people have at least a vague idea of what the future holds, there are some things that one knows are a given , here there is nothing, no certainty whatsoever.
Re Morocco, they aren't in Europe, the EU want the countries who want to deal with the EU to be up to the standards of the EU and help them to achieve this.
For the remainers to be right, remember they don't want to be right, is for the predictions to become reality and so far it is exactly as I thought other than the timing which is being so dragged out by the government.
What is a 'Soft Brexit'?
A 'Soft Brexit' could mean many things, but usually people refer to either remaining in the 'Customs Union' or staying in the 'Single Market' (or having access to the Single Market).
But wait. What is the Single Market? What is the Customs Union? What is a Free Trade Agreement? I'll give you my own definitions, trying to do so as plainly as possible.
Before we move on, let's make sure we are clear on the differences.
The EU has a Free Trade Agreement with Mexico. (most) Mexican goods can be brought into the EU without paying import duty. Mexico also has a free trade agreement with the United States. US goods can be brought into Mexico also without paying import duty.
So can US goods be brought into Mexico for free, and then subsequently brought into the EU for free? Well no. The US, Mexico and the EU all have a separate customs areas, so goods entering and leaving are checked, which includes checking the country of origin.
Three European countries; Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein remain part of the European Economic Area, which means they are part of the EU single market, but not part of the customs union. Instead, along with Switzerland, they negotiate their own free trade deals, notably including a free trade deal with Canada since 2008.
Now let's have a look at the government's negotiating position.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...ating-objectives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speechGovernment Position on the Single Market said:
In total, I think Theresa May has said that we are leaving the Single Market 8 times.
At first she seems a lot softer on the Customs Union, but actually, she isn't. By saying that she doesn't want to remain in the Common Commercial Policy and Common External Tariff, she's essentially said that she wants to leave the Customs Union. Yes she wants to have a broad customs treaty with the EU, which is fine (Norway does the same), but in effect we're leaving the Customs Union too.Government Position on the Customs Union said:
So let's answer the question; does Theresa May want a Soft Brexit.
Answer; No. She wants to leave the customs union and single market.
Now hopefully you've seen several people in this thread commenting on how their jobs require us being part of the single market. But wait doesn't being part of the Single Market mean that we are, in effect, not leaving the EU???
No. Not really. This is from Dan Hannan, Leaver in Chief of the Conservative Party
I'm getting off topic here, but hopefully I've shown that the UK has no position on hard or soft brexit is a fallacy. The current UK Government wants hard brexit.
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I think we (both the leavers and remainers) are seeing what we want to see in Labour's policy. They've said that immigration will fall. Probably. Maybe. They've said we'll leave the single market. Probably. Maybe.
But essentially you are right. Labour have said that we wont be part of the single market (except on occasions where they said otherwise)So probably you are right 85% of voters chose hard brexit of some description.
Re - what they voted for - does the average person knows what "leaving the single market" actually means in real terms - that sterling will fall, prices will increase, inflation will go up, unemployment increases and an endless stream of other disadvantages - is this what they really voted for - I wasn't born yesterday - this was not the main reason.
It was all there in Project Fear. And plenty more as well which has still not happened. But still they decided to vote LEAVE.
So if you're hinting / suggesting that 52% of the UK voted LEAVE because of immigration, then I'll agree that undoubtedly some of those 52% obviously did, but are you suggesting that all 52% did ? That 52% of the UK are racist and / or xenophobic ?
It might seem that way for some of those who voted REMAIN, but I simply refuse to believe it in the same way that I don't believe that 25+% of French people ( which is the number who voted FN at the Presidentials) are racist and / or xenophobic.
I might be wrong, of course, but if I am then I'd argue that racism / xenophobia is an even bigger problem here than in the UK, because in the UK the Referendum vote was about the EU. Here it was about whether we wanted a racist President and her mates.
It was all there in Project Fear. And plenty more as well which has still not happened. But still they decided to vote LEAVE.
So if you're hinting / suggesting that 52% of the UK voted LEAVE because of immigration, then I'll agree that undoubtedly some of those 52% obviously did, but are you suggesting that all 52% did ? That 52% of the UK are racist and / or xenophobic ?
It might seem that way for some of those who voted REMAIN, but I simply refuse to believe it in the same way that I don't believe that 25+% of French people ( which is the number who voted FN at the Presidentials) are racist and / or xenophobic.
I might be wrong, of course, but if I am then I'd argue that racism / xenophobia is an even bigger problem here than in the UK, because in the UK the Referendum vote was about the EU. Here it was about whether we wanted a racist President and her mates.
To phrase that better, I think 85% of voters chose a party that supports a hard brexit. As the two main parties were supporting a hard Brexit, Brexit itself became a bit of a side issue with voters choosing between public spending or austerity policies. It was only really the Green Party who were pushing a soft Brexit anyway. Lib Dems were trying for a no-Brexit first and foremost and offering a second referendum.
FWIW, I actually believe we will get a second referendum once the terms are agreed. It's going to be a safety cushion of sorts. The only reason it's been denied outright is because it gives us a weaker negotiating hand as the EU can play hardball and offer us the worst deal (no deal) possible in the knowledge that a second referendum on bad terms would almost certainly see us remain in the EU. Does anyone really believe that the Government isn't capable of u-turning and deciding they will call an
It could even be the Governments plan all along, considering how many remainers they have in there, get a terrible deal, put it to a vote and remain likely wins and that's that for the next 30 years.
I didn't say they all are , I said the main reason and no pretending otherwise will change that. Sure there are racist and xenophobes in both countries, but the racism and xenophobia in France is mainly directed towards people from outside the EU, not inside it.
In the aftermath of London Bridge - a member of my family posted this on a site called "I am proud to be English" - we need to get Brexit moving so our children and grandchildren have a save country to live in
Amongst thousands of similar sort of crap on tons of sites and comments on newspapers
Wonder if there is a site called "I am ashamed to be English"?
Very well and very eloquently put.
But I'll still stick to my guns and say that the EU has all the cards - even if the UK Government wanted a Soft Brexit, of whatever shape, it would be the EU who will decide, not the UK. That the Government currently seems to be chasing a Hard Brexit is probably a negotiating strategy based on ' they need us as much as we need them '- but which may backfire, of course, although many in the Conservative party would see that as a success, ironically.
Of the different options, I said on here a couple of weeks ago that if the EU really does want / need the UK as a Trading Partner, then the obvious option is for them to offer to the UK a DCFTA similar to the one it has with Ukraine and which, I think, would be accepted by almost everyone in the UK. But the UK can't demand this, so whether they will is in the EU's hands, not the UK's hands, and which is why I say the EU effectively has all the cards.
Wonder if there is a site called "I am ashamed to be English"?
I think it's this one, isn't it ?