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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


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Yeah right. Of course it's the EU's fault. The free movement of labour has always been the dogma and a holy one. Where free movement of goods and capital are limited and regulated by the EU itself, when it's the free movement of labour the EU has only prevented nationals governments of regulating it. Which EU country manages to enforce minimum wage with the enormous pressure on it from all those Eastern Europeans? And what about the jobs above minimum wage, is minimum wage the ideal for the left wing these days? There are millions of Eastern Europeans for who 500 pounds a month is a very good income relative to their cost of living, they are always going to put an enormous pressure on wages in countries with much higher cost of living. They are not going to spend it in the country they work in of course.

'But our workers don't want to do those jobs' Well, you're not paying enough then are you? And when employers pay more, employees will spend more, so you can still make good money. And what about all those Eastern Europeans away from their families and friends living in caravans? Is that the left wing ideal for the life of lorry drivers and builders? And who is paying the unemployment benefits for the Western European lorry drivers and builders? Right, Westen Europeans who managed to hang on to their jobs.

Work harder for less money, that's what the EU is about. Free movement of labour is great when it's about an exciting job or place to live that's not in your own country, but now it's about unfair competition to lower the cost of labour in favour of those who own. With a left wing like this, those who own don't need a right wing at all.

Free movement of people is regulated just as much as goods and capital, the most pertinent example bring that you treat foreign nationals equally under the law as natives, so minimum wage laws apply.

You can't blame the EU for national governments not policing the minimum wage. Your fire is aimed at the wrong people.

As for the march east, I am in favour of it. There is little evidence that wages have been compressed by their addition to the EU, further I see how they do bring prosperity to this nations. Lots of new eastern european owned business, often set up in the poorer end of town, bringing new life to run down areas.

This is a great irony, EU money and EU migrants more often spend cash and time in the run down areas of Britain than the masters who ran the vote leave campaign.

I also think that we've done a great deed by helping eastern european nations grow, they were shit holes after communism, as they become first world economies, the people who live there won't need to move to live a decent life.
 
Free movement of people is regulated just as much as goods and capital, the most pertinent example bring that you treat foreign nationals equally under the law as natives, so minimum wage laws apply.

You can't blame the EU for national governments not policing the minimum wage. Your fire is aimed at the wrong people.

As for the march east, I am in favour of it. There is little evidence that wages have been compressed by their addition to the EU, further I see how they do bring prosperity to this nations. Lots of new eastern european owned business, often set up in the poorer end of town, bringing new life to run down areas.

This is a great irony, EU money and EU migrants more often spend cash and time in the run down areas of Britain than the masters who ran the vote leave campaign.

I also think that we've done a great deed by helping eastern european nations grow, they were shit holes after communism, as they become first world economies, the people who live there won't need to move to live a decent life.

Good post.
 
Free movement of people is regulated just as much as goods and capital, the most pertinent example bring that you treat foreign nationals equally under the law as natives, so minimum wage laws apply.

You can't blame the EU for national governments not policing the minimum wage. Your fire is aimed at the wrong people.

As for the march east, I am in favour of it. There is little evidence that wages have been compressed by their addition to the EU, further I see how they do bring prosperity to this nations. Lots of new eastern european owned business, often set up in the poorer end of town, bringing new life to run down areas.

This is a great irony, EU money and EU migrants more often spend cash and time in the run down areas of Britain than the masters who ran the vote leave campaign.

I also think that we've done a great deed by helping eastern european nations grow, they were shit holes after communism, as they become first world economies, the people who live there won't need to move to live a decent life.

I would add the single market has created more prosperity, not less. When I lived in the UK in the 90s after the recession there the standard of living was terrible, in particular the quality of food, standard of hospitality etc. that all improved markedly over the last 20-30 years.

Also, for anyone that understands economics over 40% of the UKs exports go to Europe which is largely made of stable, first world economies. That makes that 40% even more valuable because you do not have the same level of fluctuations as you get trading with third world economies which are the agreements now trying to be formed by May (India etc.).

Sure the Eastern European economies are not there yet in relative terms, but the idea is to invest trade surpluses into those economies so that they can one day improve standards there and become a positive trade partner for the rest of Europe. Is the ability to control immigration from these countries worth the trade off in future lost trade from the whole of Europe?

The UK's plan to tear up trade agreements and form new ones is heavily dependent on the agreement with the US as the only stable of economy with significant enough trading volume to provide the same level of trade stability as with the EU.

So far from what I can see is that every single outcome from Brexit is going to result in screwing over the little guy:
  • Currency devaluation has already led to price increases and rising inflation
  • Loss of trade agreements will lead to increase in import costs pushing up prices further
  • Employers will need to spend more on more expensive labour thus pushing up costs further
The Brexiters will of course point out how well the economy is doing at the moment, using the same short termism that led them to vote to leave in the first place.
 
All of that could have been prevented, if the EU would have made reasonable reforms about social security for European migrants: European migrants should get their social security payments from their home country and not from the country they are migrating to. They should be only eligible for welfare payments after working X years in the new country.

Fun fact: Originally the minimum wage was implement to price those pesky black and Asian people out of the market; it wasn’t intended to boost the income of the “superior” white citizens. Eugenics ftw.
 
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All of that could have been prevented, if the EU would have made reasonable reforms about social security for European migrants: European migrants should get their social security payments from their home country and not from the country they migrating to. They are only eligible for welfare payments after working X years in the new country.

Fun fact: Originally the minimum wage was implement to price those pesky black and Asian people out of the market; it wasn’t intended to boost the income of the “superior” white citizens. Eugenics ftw.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that's how it works.

Or you are suggesting that people that live and pay taxes in a country should be supported by a country that doesn't receive taxes from them?
 
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Yeah right. Of course it's the EU's fault. The free movement of labour has always been the dogma and a holy one. Where free movement of goods and capital are limited and regulated by the EU itself, when it's the free movement of labour the EU has only prevented nationals governments of regulating it. Which EU country manages to enforce minimum wage with the enormous pressure on it from all those Eastern Europeans? And what about the jobs above minimum wage, is minimum wage the ideal for the left wing these days? There are millions of Eastern Europeans for who 500 pounds a month is a very good income relative to their cost of living, they are always going to put an enormous pressure on wages in countries with much higher cost of living. They are not going to spend it in the country they work in of course.

'But our workers don't want to do those jobs' Well, you're not paying enough then are you? And when employers pay more, employees will spend more, so you can still make good money. And what about all those Eastern Europeans away from their families and friends living in caravans? Is that the left wing ideal for the life of lorry drivers and builders? And who is paying the unemployment benefits for the Western European lorry drivers and builders? Right, Westen Europeans who managed to hang on to their jobs.

Work harder for less money, that's what the EU is about. Free movement of labour is great when it's about an exciting job or place to live that's not in your own country, but now it's about unfair competition to lower the cost of labour in favour of those who own. With a left wing like this, those who own don't need a right wing at all.

Yeah
 
You can't blame the EU for national governments not policing the minimum wage. Your fire is aimed at the wrong people.

Hear this in almost every post so why do the eu make targets, limits, ceilings and floors for no-one to follow?

And we pay for this. What if ithe eu didn't exist? governments ignoring piss taking farmers, govern as you like. It'd be exactly the same as it is now only a lot cheaper. Plus we wouldn't have to hear "you cant blame the eu for that" anymore
 
Yeah right. Of course it's the EU's fault. The free movement of labour has always been the dogma and a holy one. Where free movement of goods and capital are limited and regulated by the EU itself, when it's the free movement of labour the EU has only prevented nationals governments of regulating it. Which EU country manages to enforce minimum wage with the enormous pressure on it from all those Eastern Europeans? And what about the jobs above minimum wage, is minimum wage the ideal for the left wing these days? There are millions of Eastern Europeans for who 500 pounds a month is a very good income relative to their cost of living, they are always going to put an enormous pressure on wages in countries with much higher cost of living. They are not going to spend it in the country they work in of course.

'But our workers don't want to do those jobs' Well, you're not paying enough then are you? And when employers pay more, employees will spend more, so you can still make good money. And what about all those Eastern Europeans away from their families and friends living in caravans? Is that the left wing ideal for the life of lorry drivers and builders? And who is paying the unemployment benefits for the Western European lorry drivers and builders? Right, Westen Europeans who managed to hang on to their jobs.

Work harder for less money, that's what the EU is about. Free movement of labour is great when it's about an exciting job or place to live that's not in your own country, but now it's about unfair competition to lower the cost of labour in favour of those who own. With a left wing like this, those who own don't need a right wing at all.


Prior to the UK joining the EU it was the sick person of Europe who was begging its way into Europe. The UK is leaving the EU, this time as a financial powerhouse. You really can't complain that the EU had treated you badly can you?

Nearly everybody in the Western world is working harder for less. That's due to globalization and the redistribution of weath. We're competing with countries whom up to 10-20 years old were out of the picture but had now become financial powerhouses. Every Western economy is suffering because of it including countries like the US whose not in the EU.

If you close doors to Europe then rest assured that Europe will shut doors to the UK. If you want more access to someone's market then rest assured that they would want more access to their people coming to work in the UK. You cant expect UK companies to have unrestricted access to someone's market and then say 'we don't want your people around'. India and even the US were pretty clear on that regard
 
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I only know how it works in Germany, where the government just passed new laws to prevent the worst abuse. Still that’s not how it works in reality.

It's fairly simple, if you don't work you have next to no rights and if you work you are protected by the country your work is because that's where you pay taxes.
 
It's fairly simple, if you don't work you have next to no rights and if you work you are protected by the country your work is because that's where you pay taxes.

I can only talk about Germany. Your first point wasn’t true till dec2016 when the government changed it. Reality is not as black/white as you try to frame it. What happens if you worked for a day and get unemployed afterwards? I also made a point about how things should be and not about how they are.
 
This discussion illustrates perfectly that the rules are different in each country within the EU - but of course every country is supposed to have the same rules and the EU are supposed to impose all these regulations. Another myth.

Exactly. And if you're eurosceptic to begin with then knee-jerk criticism of Brussels is the default response to any challenges your country faces, whether or not the issue should be handled locally.
 
I can only talk about Germany. Your first point wasn’t true till dec2016 when the government changed it. Reality is not as black/white as you try to frame it. What happens if you worked for a day and get unemployed afterwards? I also made a point about how things should be and not about how they are.

You can be expelled or if you comply to the rules of the country you are living in you can receive something.
 
What I find strange is that if you were pro-Remain you were supposed to be a young leftie and if you were pro-Brexit you were supposed to be an old right winger.

Oddly enough all the people I know who on the whole are not young and predominantly Tory voters (including myself) were pro-Remain and all the traditional Labour voters of all ages were predominantly pro-Brexit.
 
Thats the problem with trying to pigeon hole people or tar with the same brush

Unless people are either extreme left or extreme right, which I would hazard a guess only applies to a very small percentage of the population, I don't believe political leanings played too much of a part in the decision.
 
What I find strange is that if you were pro-Remain you were supposed to be a young leftie and if you were pro-Brexit you were supposed to be an old right winger.

Oddly enough all the people I know who on the whole are not young and predominantly Tory voters (including myself) were pro-Remain and all the traditional Labour voters of all ages were predominantly pro-Brexit.

More liberal Tories like you and @Jippy were fairly pro-Remain, however the Tories as a party have an inherent Euroscepticism to them, with a lot of their older voters and membership base edging to Leave.

Meanwhile, there's definitely a solid contingent of Labour voters who went for Brexit but the party voters as a majority still backed Remain. There's definitely a large group of Labour voters who feel disillusioned with the party, and with their more liberal, European stance...but it's by no means a dominant group.
 
You can be expelled or if you comply to the rules of the country you are living in you can receive something.

In reality how many people are expelled? You can argue all you like about national govts being responsible but once you are in the UK and get a lawyer it is an expensive business to get rid. In fact it is probably prohibitively expensive to do so. What does it cost to go through the process of removing someone who is determined to stay?
 
You can’t just be expelled. The baseline was that each country has to treat Eu migrants like their own citizens. Due to the fact, that this would obviously ridiculous we ended up in a situation, where a certain level of special treatment is allowed. The whole thing is very much work-in-progress and courts decide most of these issues in fairly political ways. Especially when it goes up to the eugh. That’s why Cameron was negotiating in the first place.
 
In reality how many people are expelled? You can argue all you like about national govts being responsible but once you are in the UK and get a lawyer it is an expensive business to get rid. In fact it is probably prohibitively expensive to do so. What does it cost to go through the process of removing someone who is determined to stay?

It depends on the country, in the case of Belgium iirc they expelled 10000 people between 2011 and 2016, in France it's about a thousand per year.
 
You can’t just be expelled. The baseline was that each country has to treat Eu migrants like their own citizens. Due to the fact, that this would obviously ridiculous we ended up in a situation, where a certain level of special treatment is allowed. The whole thing is very much work-in-progress and courts decide most of these issues in fairly political ways. Especially when it goes up to the eugh. That’s why Cameron was negotiating in the first place.

No, that only applies for long term residents.
 
It depends on the country, in the case of Belgium iirc they expelled 10000 people between 2011 and 2016, in France it's about a thousand per year.

So if we take the 1000 people France expelled as an example, how much did that cost on average per person do you think?
 
No, that only applies for long term residents.

yes, because recently the EUGH came to the conclusion, that each state was some leeway. Nobody cares about the people who never intended to work in the first place, because everyone agrees, that they shouldn't have access to welfare. It is all about the details at what point people get access to which programs and that is complicated.


Again: Why did Cameron negotiate with the EU in the first place, when - following your argument - he could have just changed UK laws?
 
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You can’t just be expelled. The baseline was that each country has to treat Eu migrants like their own citizens. Due to the fact, that this would obviously ridiculous we ended up in a situation, where a certain level of special treatment is allowed. The whole thing is very much work-in-progress and courts decide most of these issues in fairly political ways. Especially when it goes up to the eugh. That’s why Cameron was negotiating in the first place.

I;m pretty sure that many countries have rules about fresh EU migrants not being treated as equal citizens for a few years.
 
Free movement of people is regulated just as much as goods and capital, the most pertinent example bring that you treat foreign nationals equally under the law as natives, so minimum wage laws apply.

You can't blame the EU for national governments not policing the minimum wage. Your fire is aimed at the wrong people.
That's a bit more complicated when there are endless chains of subcontracters and employment agencies from Eastern Europe are involved. It's also more complicated when the employer is also the one that provides the housing. It's more complicated when the employees don't know the local law and don't speak the language. And when a national government is trying to counter that, it gets complicated with the EU because they don't care about the local employees and jobless at all and are extremely strict on policies that might interfere with those subcontracters or employment agencies operating in foreign countries.

So yes, I can blame and do blame the EU.

As for the march east, I am in favour of it. There is little evidence that wages have been compressed by their addition to the EU, further I see how they do bring prosperity to this nations. Lots of new eastern european owned business, often set up in the poorer end of town, bringing new life to run down areas.

This is a great irony, EU money and EU migrants more often spend cash and time in the run down areas of Britain than the masters who ran the vote leave campaign.

I also think that we've done a great deed by helping eastern european nations grow, they were shit holes after communism, as they become first world economies, the people who live there won't need to move to live a decent life.
It's not for the EU to decide to take money from Western European countries and move it Eastern European countries. They weren't shitholes, they were just poor. Now the poor there are more poor, and a lot the people who lived there don't really live there anymore but in a caravan park in Western Europe.

I'm happy those countries joined, I don't mind helping them. I didn't mind Western European companies moving a part of production there or investing in existing factories there. I don't mind Eastern Europeans working in the West. I do mind their low cost of living disrupting the lives of workers there and the job market here. That wasn't necessary at all, joining the EU would have boosted their economies anyway, but they would have developped on a slightly slower pace but in lot better way. Now Eastern European companies have to compete with Western European wages, so those are screwed too and that's probably worse for their economies in the long run.

But the EU doesn't care, they aren't organizing this race to the bottom for the sake of the Eastern Europeans or Western Europeans. Why should they? It's not like we can vote them out.

Prior to the UK joining the EU it was the sick person of Europe who was begging its way into Europe. The UK is leaving the EU, this time as a financial powerhouse. You really can't complain that the EU had treated you badly can you?
The UK never joined the EU. The UK joined the EEC, that was a very different organization. After that there was the EC, followed by the EU, and after that there was the new EU with the constitution/Lissabon treaty. A lot has changed. The current EU has been a disaster, that's why it's claiming the successes of the ECSC, the EEC and the EC for itself, together with the successes of all these different social democracies it is destroying. The EU is even claiming Europe, but this continent was already there way before the EU and the richest countries aren't even a member of the EU. People might even get the idea there's no other possible way of European cooperation than this EU.

If the UK was such a financial powerhouse the Brexit wouldn't be a problem, the problem is that the UK is a financial sector powerhouse and a financial sector lives off other sectors, and living off it a bit too well. The City can't live off just the British economy anyway, but it's time for the UK to start beeing productive again.

Nearly everybody in the Western world is working harder for less. That's due to globalization and the redistribution of weath. We're competing with countries whom up to 10-20 years old were out of the picture but had now become financial powerhouses. Every Western economy is suffering because of it including countries like the US whose not in the EU.
No, it's due to political choice. In the US the big corporations have an electoral system where they can preselect the candidates by financing the expensive campaigns to make the political choices in favour of them. In Europe the big corporations have the EU to bypass those nasty social democracies with demands about working hours, vacations, wages and stuff that's only very good in the long term for all of the people, but really suck at getting unfair advantages and a lot of quick bucks for the biggest companies. In the UK the big corporations have the Tories and New Labour, they don't need the EU for that, but the City needs the whole EU economy to feed off.

If you close doors to Europe then rest assured that Europe will shut doors to the UK. If you want more access to someone's market then rest assured that they would want more access to their people coming to work in the UK. You cant expect UK companies to have unrestricted access to someone's market and then say 'we don't want your people around'. India and even the US were pretty clear on that regard
If the EU was reasonable about it, they would just negotiate on base of reciprocity, that's how trade agreements work. But they won't be reasonalbe about it. They will ram free movement of labour through every member state's throat by presenting as inseperable from trading goods, which is nonsense of course, but the EU knows very well who's interests to serve. The EU will rather harm all the other member state's economies than offer the UK a fair deal, they will make sure every remaining member state is scared to leave the EU. That's why they send Verhofstadt as the head negotiater, Verhofstadt is to European integration what Al-Baghdadi is to islam. Good luck with that, but at least you will be free of those fundamentalist antidemocrats like that in two years, the rest of the EU citizens will be plagued by them for much longer.
 
So if we take the 1000 people France expelled as an example, how much did that cost on average per person do you think?

The average for all expelled people without origin distinction is around 20000€ per person. Now the cost is different between someone that you send to Dakar and someone that you send to Bucharest but either way that's generally expensive.
 
I have experienced the dole in Holland, 3 months of being talked to like a convict.

A mate of mine was was told he could be deported to Germany when he signed on lol. Deporting eu passport holders from one eu country to another is reserved for hardened criminals.

A few years ago foreigners claiming dole were offered cash incentives to go home.
 
Hear this in almost every post so why do the eu make targets, limits, ceilings and floors for no-one to follow?

Not for the minimum wage, which you seem to believe theu dictate

And we pay for this. What if ithe eu didn't exist? governments ignoring piss taking farmers, govern as you like. It'd be exactly the same as it is now only a lot cheaper. Plus we wouldn't have to hear "you cant blame the eu for that" anymore

Again the EU doesn't govern rules around the minimum wage so it already doesn't exist in this area. I have to repeat myself as you have an amazing ability to blame the EU when it's not at fault
 
I have experienced the dole in Holland, 3 months of being talked to like a convict.

A mate of mine was was told he could be deported to Germany when he signed on lol. Deporting eu passport holders from one eu country to another is reserved for hardened criminals.

A few years ago foreigners claiming dole were offered cash incentives to go home.

I thought that's the kind of thing you were in favour of to stop mass migration?
 
All of that could have been prevented, if the EU would have made reasonable reforms about social security for European migrants: European migrants should get their social security payments from their home country and not from the country they are migrating to. They should be only eligible for welfare payments after working X years in the new country.

Fun fact: Originally the minimum wage was implement to price those pesky black and Asian people out of the market; it wasn’t intended to boost the income of the “superior” white citizens. Eugenics ftw.

These people live work and pay taxes in the UK so should be entitled to every benefit a British person earns through labour
 
What I find strange is that if you were pro-Remain you were supposed to be a young leftie and if you were pro-Brexit you were supposed to be an old right winger.

Oddly enough all the people I know who on the whole are not young and predominantly Tory voters (including myself) were pro-Remain and all the traditional Labour voters of all ages were predominantly pro-Brexit.

I belive the stats show that most labour supporters, even in tradtional Labour areas that voted out, voted remain.