Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Stanley Road]

Not for the minimum wage, which you seem to believe theu dictate



Again the EU doesn't govern rules around the minimum wage so it already doesn't exist in this area. I have to repeat myself as you have an amazing ability to blame the EU when it's not at fault

They make loads of guidelines that countries ignore but you know that

 

[Stanley Road]

I thought that's the kind of thing you were in favour of to stop mass migration?

Don't think I said that but you can find a post and prove me wrong

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

The average for all expelled people without origin distinction is around 20000€ per person. Now the cost is different between someone that you send to Dakar and someone that you send to Bucharest but either way that's generally expensive.

So would it be fair to say that it probably is unaffordable for the nation state to go through the processing of all migrants and the removal of all of those who shouldn't be there?

 

[JPRouve]

So would it be fair to say that it probably is unaffordable for the nation state to go through the processing of all migrants and the removal of all of those who shouldn't be there?

No it would not, at least not on those terms. It's not productive to expel someone on the sole basis of unemployment because there are less expensive and more lucrative ways to deal with it, like finding them jobs particularly since we all need laborers.

 

[Mozza]

That's a bit more complicated when there are endless chains of subcontracters and employment agencies from Eastern Europe are involved. It's also more complicated when the employer is also the one that provides the housing. It's more complicated when the employees don't know the local law and don't speak the language. And when a national government is trying to counter that, it gets complicated with the EU because they don't care about the local employees and jobless at all and are extremely strict on policies that might interfere with those subcontracters or employment agencies operating in foreign countries.

So yes, I can blame and do blame the EU.

You can blame them all you want but you are factually wrong. The responsibility to police the minimum wage is for the individual nations. Your determination to blame the EU is sad

It's not for the EU to decide to take money from Western European countries and move it Eastern European countries. They weren't shitholes, they were just poor. Now the poor there are more poor, and a lot the people who lived there don't really live there anymore but in a caravan park in Western Europe.

I'm happy those countries joined, I don't mind helping them. I didn't mind Western European companies moving a part of production there or investing in existing factories there. I don't mind Eastern Europeans working in the West. I do mind their low cost of living disrupting the lives of workers there and the job market here. That wasn't necessary at all, joining the EU would have boosted their economies anyway, but they would have developped on a slightly slower pace but in lot better way. Now Eastern European companies have to compete with Western European wages, so those are screwed too and that's probably worse for their economies in the long run.

But the EU doesn't care, they aren't organizing this race to the bottom for the sake of the Eastern Europeans or Western Europeans. Why should they? It's not like we can vote them out.

It is part of the EU'S remit. They spend money on Eastern Europe and poor bits of western Europe.

The EU has enacted so many laws that protects workers, environment and consumers at the cost of business. The Leave leaders were forever bemoaning the red tape that comes with being a member of the EU. The idea that the EU is an organisation determined to screw the poor is fantasy. The way legislation is made in the EU forces a centrist policy

If the EU was reasonable about it, they would just negotiate on base of reciprocity, that's how trade agreements work. But they won't be reasonalbe about it. They will ram free movement of labour through every member state's throat by presenting as inseperable from trading goods, which is nonsense of course, but the EU knows very well who's interests to serve. The EU will rather harm all the other member state's economies than offer the UK a fair deal, they will make sure every remaining member state is scared to leave the EU. That's why they send Verhofstadt as the head negotiater, Verhofstadt is to European integration what Al-Baghdadi is to islam. Good luck with that, but at least you will be free of those fundamentalist antidemocrats like that in two years, the rest of the EU citizens will be plagued by them for much longer.

Freedom of movement applies to you and me, not just eastern Europeans. Why would you want to make your horizon smaller? The twats who ran the leave campaign will be fine. They have money, they have staff who can fill out forms and chase paper work to let them live and work across the continent. I am from a poor working class background, I could tomorrow move to Germany and start a new job. This to me is a great thing. I may never take advantage of it, but I would be devastated to lose it

 

[Mozza]

I have experienced the dole in Holland, 3 months of being talked to like a convict.

A mate of mine was was told he could be deported to Germany when he signed on lol. Deporting eu passport holders from one eu country to another is reserved for hardened criminals.

A few years ago foreigners claiming dole were offered cash incentives to go home.

The UK does the same. Job seekers have to jump through hoops to receive benefits. Refugees and asylum seekers are offered tickets and mo ey to go home

 

[Mozza]

So would it be fair to say that it probably is unaffordable for the nation state to go through the processing of all migrants and the removal of all of those who shouldn't be there?

Most people don't want to spend their life on the dole, it's not very lucrative

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Strange that the UK are able to remove people who have lived 10 20 or 30 years in the UK who have worked and paid taxes in the Uk and even married to British subjects and even have British children but are unable to remove immigrants who are out of work, on the dole and have no family connections to the UK.

 

[devilish]

That's a bit more complicated when there are endless chains of subcontracters and employment agencies from Eastern Europe are involved. It's also more complicated when the employer is also the one that provides the housing. It's more complicated when the employees don't know the local law and don't speak the language. And when a national government is trying to counter that, it gets complicated with the EU because they don't care about the local employees and jobless at all and are extremely strict on policies that might interfere with those subcontracters or employment agencies operating in foreign countries.

So yes, I can blame and do blame the EU.


It's not for the EU to decide to take money from Western European countries and move it Eastern European countries. They weren't shitholes, they were just poor. Now the poor there are more poor, and a lot the people who lived there don't really live there anymore but in a caravan park in Western Europe.

I'm happy those countries joined, I don't mind helping them. I didn't mind Western European companies moving a part of production there or investing in existing factories there. I don't mind Eastern Europeans working in the West. I do mind their low cost of living disrupting the lives of workers there and the job market here. That wasn't necessary at all, joining the EU would have boosted their economies anyway, but they would have developped on a slightly slower pace but in lot better way. Now Eastern European companies have to compete with Western European wages, so those are screwed too and that's probably worse for their economies in the long run.

But the EU doesn't care, they aren't organizing this race to the bottom for the sake of the Eastern Europeans or Western Europeans. Why should they? It's not like we can vote them out.


The UK never joined the EU. The UK joined the EEC, that was a very different organization. After that there was the EC, followed by the EU, and after that there was the new EU with the constitution/Lissabon treaty. A lot has changed. The current EU has been a disaster, that's why it's claiming the successes of the ECSC, the EEC and the EC for itself, together with the successes of all these different social democracies it is destroying. The EU is even claiming Europe, but this continent was already there way before the EU and the richest countries aren't even a member of the EU. People might even get the idea there's no other possible way of European cooperation than this EU.

If the UK was such a financial powerhouse the Brexit wouldn't be a problem, the problem is that the UK is a financial sector powerhouse and a financial sector lives off other sectors, and living off it a bit too well. The City can't live off just the British economy anyway, but it's time for the UK to start beeing productive again.

No, it's due to political choice. In the US the big corporations have an electoral system where they can preselect the candidates by financing the expensive campaigns to make the political choices in favour of them. In Europe the big corporations have the EU to bypass those nasty social democracies with demands about working hours, vacations, wages and stuff that's only very good in the long term for all of the people, but really suck at getting unfair advantages and a lot of quick bucks for the biggest companies. In the UK the big corporations have the Tories and New Labour, they don't need the EU for that, but the City needs the whole EU economy to feed off.


If the EU was reasonable about it, they would just negotiate on base of reciprocity, that's how trade agreements work. But they won't be reasonalbe about it. They will ram free movement of labour through every member state's throat by presenting as inseperable from trading goods, which is nonsense of course, but the EU knows very well who's interests to serve. The EU will rather harm all the other member state's economies than offer the UK a fair deal, they will make sure every remaining member state is scared to leave the EU. That's why they send Verhofstadt as the head negotiater, Verhofstadt is to European integration what Al-Baghdadi is to islam. Good luck with that, but at least you will be free of those fundamentalist antidemocrats like that in two years, the rest of the EU citizens will be plagued by them for much longer.

I hate when posts are broken into tiny pieces. Its almost impossible to keep up with it.

a- Every country that joined the EU joined because every member agreed with it. That means that the UK had agreed with every EU country to be given equal rights and freedom of movement. The EU is not like the UK England dictate and Scotland has to follow

b-The UK hasn't got an idea of how trade agreements work because they haven't done one for the past half a century. The EU was doing trade deals on the UK behalf. The Brexiters will soon notice that xenophobia and the trade deals don't mix very well. Australia, India, the US had all mentioned lesser immigration control in exchange of a trade deal and rest assured that none of those deals would be even near to the one the UK with the EU.

c- The UK has absolutely no idea how the EU is run. That's pretty obvious already from Boris offering a jumbo trade deal to Turkey (something Turkey can't accept since its in the customs union) to Davis promising trade deals with individual EU countries which guess guess, is also impossible. That's what happens when you send buffoons like Farage to Brussels instead of people who actually care of representing the people there.

d- Many EU Eastern European countries are blooming. Czech Republic's and Poland's economy is growing stronger at each passing year. Many Polish people are returning home and soon enough expats will be moving there as they are moving to Malta, another EU success story.

d- Globalization is here to stay. We have to live with it. Wealth will be redistributed more fairly between the richer countries and the poorer ones which means that those who were once financial superpowers will be less so.

e- As Brexiters at Westminster had admitted the EU doesn't interfere with the sovreignity of a country. The UK had gambled everything on the financial sector because it wanted to. Other EU countries have a more balanced economy including Germany. What the EU contributed is to allow you unrestricted access to the market of an entire continent, which also happens to be the closest and therefore more important one for the UK. The UK had decided to throw that away, which is fair enough. However you can't expect the EU to offer you anything similar and better. After all you're the smaller and the weaker market not the EU (big fish-small fish). That's why countries gang with one another and form a union in the first place ie so that they can use their combined economic power as leverage.

The UK will soon come to realisation of the reality of things pretty soon. Good luck for the future you'll need it

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

No it would not, at least not on those terms. It's not productive to expel someone on the sole basis of unemployment because there are less expensive and more lucrative ways to deal with it, like finding them jobs particularly since we all need laborers.

I agree with you but if you end in a situation where people arrive and well it is just cheaper and easier to let them stay, then those complaining about the lack of controls and the numbers have a point don't they? In theory, the nation states can police the whole thing given the powers they have but in reality, they can't and then the EU comes along and everyone gets to move everywhere they want to and the whole thing stops making any sense at all.

 

[Mozza]

Strange that the UK are able to remove people who have lived 10 20 or 30 years in the UK who have worked and paid taxes in the Uk and even married to British subjects and even have British children but are unable to remove immigrants who are out of work, on the dole and have no family connections to the UK.

Eu/non Eu. The thing is, if you believe it will get any better once we leave, you're an idiot.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Strange that the UK are able to remove people who have lived 10 20 or 30 years in the UK who have worked and paid taxes in the Uk and even married to British subjects and even have British children but are unable to remove immigrants who are out of work, on the dole and have no family connections to the UK.

How many people did the UK remove last year Paul?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

How many people did the UK remove last year Paul?

That's not the point I'm trying to make though, they don't police it properly.
It's easy targetting, the same as (nothing to do with the EU) chasing people or companies that do pay their taxes but try to squeeze out every last penny but won't chase after big companies or rich individuals because it's too troublesome or difficult.
It's the way the UK has worked for a long time.

 

[JPRouve]

I agree with you but if you end in a situation where people arrive and well it is just cheaper and easier to let them stay, then those complaining about the lack of controls and the numbers have a point don't they? In theory, the nation states can police the whole thing given the powers they have but in reality, they can't and then the EU comes along and everyone gets to move everywhere they want to and the whole thing stops making any sense at all.

No they don't have a point because the solution isn't policing and control, those people are partisan for the sake of it. The UK, France or Germany have jobs and we need those migrants to fill those jobs alongside the different nationas that is something that need to be done by our respective government but for some reasons they are too busy campaigning for nonsense like "more control, more borders" and "They are stealing our jobs", we don't need more borders we need to fulfill more jobs offer.

Now, I do want a better control of our borders but that's only because I'm big on national security and anti smuggling.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

That's not the point I'm trying to make though, they don't police it properly.
It's easy targetting, the same as (nothing to do with the EU) chasing people or companies that do pay their taxes but try to squeeze out every last penny but won't chase after big companies or rich individuals because it's too troublesome or difficult.
It's the way the UK has worked for a long time.

I think if it was possible to police it someone would have done so by now. It doesn't strike me as the UK being in isolation especially incompetent either as it seems a problem across most of Northern Europe.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Eu/non Eu. The thing is, if you believe it will get any better once we leave, you're an idiot.

Of course it won't, the UK border control is already there.

Additionally If the UK leaves the single market and FoM stops, the borders will be overwhelmed with customs checks.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I think if it was possible to police it someone would have done so by now. It doesn't strike me as the UK being in isolation especially incompetent either as it seems a problem across most of Northern Europe.

But the UK don't have open borders like the Schengen area, everyone who enters the Uk is theoretically checked. To receive the dole you have to be registered with an NI number.

If there are illegals who have overstayed their time and who maybe working illegally this could apply to all visitors from all over the world.

 

[Mozza]

Of course it won't, the UK border control is already there.

Additionally If the UK leaves the single market and FoM stops, the borders will be overwhelmed with customs checks.

I'm of Indian origin. There are many idiots in my community who belived that if EU migration fell the government would make it easier for Indians to come in.

Trade talks between Britain and India went poorly because they wanted more visas and we weren't willing to compromise

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'm of Indian origin. There are many idiots in my community who belived that if EU migration fell the government would make it easier for Indians to come in.

Trade talks between Britain and India went poorly because they wanted more visas and we weren't willing to compromise

Presumably some of them voted for Brexit then.

The government wants to reduce the number of immigrants, it doesn't matter to them where they come from, and they have to appease the Brexiters who don't want any foreigners taking their jobs and hospital beds and school places.

 

[Stanley Road]

You can blame them all you want but you are factually wrong. The responsibility to police the minimum wage is for the individual nations. Your determination to blame the EU is sad




It is part of the EU'S remit. They spend money on Eastern Europe and poor bits of western Europe.

The EU has enacted so many laws that protects workers, environment and consumers at the cost of business. The Leave leaders were forever bemoaning the red tape that comes with being a member of the EU. The idea that the EU is an organisation determined to screw the poor is fantasy. The way legislation is made in the EU forces a centrist policy




Freedom of movement applies to you and me, not just eastern Europeans. Why would you want to make your horizon smaller? The twats who ran the leave campaign will be fine. They have money, they have staff who can fill out forms and chase paper work to let them live and work across the continent. I am from a poor working class background, I could tomorrow move to Germany and start a new job. This to me is a great thing. I may never take advantage of it, but I would be devastated to lose it

You wont lose it, i work with serbians and israelis right now, non eu members.

If you're wanted you're wanted. You just like.to peddle unnecessary drama.

 

[Mozza]

Presumably some of them voted for Brexit then.

The government wants to reduce the number of immigrants, it doesn't matter to them where they come from, and they have to appease the Brexiters who don't want any foreigners taking their jobs and hospital beds and school places.

Yes they did, the fecking idiots

 

[Mozza]

You wont lose it, i work with serbians and israelis right now, non eu members.

If you're wanted you're wanted. You just like.to peddle unnecessary drama.

I will lose it. Right now I have to pay the price of a ticket. I'm not rich, I haven't got great qualifications. I haven't the money to pay for a visa or the skills to get a company to pay for one

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes they did, the fecking idiots

Misinformation and using people's prejudices, lack of knowledge and naïvety to bolster their own personal interest is all Brexit was, the biggest con in recent history and so many people fell for it.

 

[Stanley Road]

I will lose it. Right now I have to pay the price of a ticket. I'm not rich, I haven't got great qualifications. I haven't the money to pay for a visa or the skills to get a company to pay for one

Some remainers might say "well thats life". Harsh but they might say that.

At the end of the day no eu membership will guarantee you a job.

I haven't a single qualification mind but i do have 35 years work experience.

 

[Mozza]

Some remainers might say "well thats life". Harsh but they might say that.

At the end of the day no eu membership will guarantee you a job.

I haven't a single qualification mind but i do have 35 years work experience.

I'm not sure how not being a member of the EU guarantees me a job.

Lucky you moved when you did. The UK government wouldn't let you move here with no qualifications if you came from outside the EU. When they extend those rules to apply to EU members the EU will reciprocate

 

[Stanley Road]

This is where we're at

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...malian-refugees-fire-gran-ghetto-puglia-italy

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This is where we're at

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...malian-refugees-fire-gran-ghetto-puglia-italy

Nothing to do with the EU

 

[Stanley Road]

I'm not sure how not being a member of the EU guarantees me a job.

Lucky you moved when you did. The UK government wouldn't let you move here with no qualifications if you came from outside the EU. When they extend those rules to apply to EU members the EU will reciprocate

Nothing guarantees you a job anywhere and get this, not even the eu will do that.

 

[Stanley Road]

Nothing to do with the EU

No paul it isn't but you get the drift, i know you do.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No paul it isn't but you get the drift, i know you do.

But the point is that the cheap labour will come from somewhere, whether it's EU citizens or Africans or Asians or wherever - or the other alternative is that companies will go out of business or prices will skyrocket. As you said 'that's life'

 

[rotherham_red]

Yes they did, the fecking idiots

There's that classic one with the Sikh girl instantly regretting her and her family's decision to vote Brexit the day after... Silly bitch.

 

[Dobba]

This is where we're at

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...malian-refugees-fire-gran-ghetto-puglia-italy

It really was an odd decision to allow Mali into the EU.

 

[Stanley Road]

But the point is that the cheap labour will come from somewhere, whether it's EU citizens or Africans or Asians or wherever - or the other alternative is that companies will go out of business or prices will skyrocket. As you said 'that's life'

Well im all for that, lets see the real costs, let's see companies go down the pan, lets see banks fail and countries go bankrupt then we will really know where we are at. We are living unrealistically and it needs to change. 5 quid a pint of milk then fine, lets drive prices and wages up not down. Lets see how the people react to that. I'm all for it.

 

[Stanley Road]

It really was an odd decision to allow Mali into the EU.

Sorry, i thought Italy was in timbuktu

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well im all for that, lets see the real costs, let's see companies go down the pan, lets see banks fail and countries go bankrupt then we will really know where we are at. We are living unrealistically and it needs to change. 5 quid a pint of milk then fine, lets drive prices and wages up not down. Lets see how the people react to that. I'm all for it.

But it's been like that since the dawn of time.
150 years ago the UK ruled a quarter of the earth, exploited people left right and centre, the rich were really rich, and the poor were extremely poor and that includes Brits.
Even that was a considerable advance from from Tudor times or medieval times right back through history.
The world evolves and gradually people have better lives, this has not reached everybody and there's a long way to go .

50 years ago who would have thought China or India would become major world players.

Brexit is a major step backwards for me.

 

[Mozza]

Nothing guarantees you a job anywhere and get this, not even the eu will do that.

I never said it did. The EU does however offer me the opportunity to find jobs across 27 nations visa free

 

[Stanley Road]

This is no reason to stick with the norm for me and just cos "thats how its always been" doesn't suit me.

Let the people rise up amd protest.

you are my accuser, now look in my face
Your oppression reeks of your greed and disgrace
So one man has and another has not
How can you love what it is you have got
When you took it all from the weak hands of the poor?
Liars and thieves you know not what is in store

There will come a time I will look in your eye
You will pray to the God that you always denied

 

[Stanley Road]

I never said it did. The EU does however offer me the opportunity to find jobs across 27 nations visa free

So where are you going next?

 

[Mozza]

So where are you going next?

Wherever I want in the eu...... for the next 2 years.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This is no reason to stick with the norm for me and just cos "thats how its always been" doesn't suit me.

But the EU is not how it's always been, it is a comparatively recent project which still has to develop , still has to improve. The Uk could have helped to improve it from within.

I don't see how by being outside on its own, the life of an average Brit is going to improve by leaving. As you know I believe the opposite will happen. I've said before, be careful what you wish for.