Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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  • Poll closed .
Stanley Road said:
Yes you are correct but fom has allowed people from all over to go where they like and be treated as slaves, its a race to the bottom and its not just happening in the uk but in all the wealthier european countries.
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If they couldn't get in legitimately they would just sneak in illegally, nowt to do with the EU.

If the eu were a serious entity the might have done something about it instead of discussing prawn coctail crisps. So the remain camp are correct when they say no brit will do these jobs cos no brit should work for 2 quid an hour. If those interviewed on the prog last night had been black then everybody would be calling slavery.
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So you want an EU police force to step onto British soil and prosecute people for breaking British law? That's all I can infer from your post.

You hate the EU and then blame it for failings of national governments. You want the EU to disappear and hate it for not doing more. Your arguments make no sense because you hold contradictory positions, simultaneously saying the EU holds too much power then railing against them for holding too much power over nation states internal policy. This stems from your desperate need to blame the EU for every ill
 
I conceptually dislike the Lords so I'm a little uncomfortable supporting them, however they do exist and the commentary from No10 that yeah its nice they discussed things but Theresa intends to pass it unamended anyway is a tad amusing.

Its also worrying as i thought they may jump on the opportunity to do the right thing whilst being able to blame the Lords.
 
Smores said:
I conceptually dislike the Lords so I'm a little uncomfortable supporting them, however they do exist and the commentary from No10 that yeah its nice they discussed things but Theresa intends to pass it unamended anyway is a tad amusing.

Its also worrying as i thought they may jump on the opportunity to do the right thing whilst being able to blame the Lords.
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That would rely on any of them wanting to do the right thing when they'd rather be doing the far right thing.

It's a weird world when the House of Lords are the only ones talking sense.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
This sounds familiar.
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You know the more I read about it and the more I think that France and the UK have more or less the same problems. I feel that there is a lack of territory management(I don't know if it's the correct expression), politicians are too busy preparing their next campaign to actually look at the country and create the correct environment to develop some regions, in France we still have the "empty diagonal" and the littoral isn't exploited to its fullest, there is no actual industrial plans and no government try to help the creation of a strong industry oriented to the export.
 
JPRouve said:
You know the more I read about it and the more I think that France and the UK have more or less the same problems. I feel that there is a lack of territory management(I don't know if it's the correct expression), politicians are too busy preparing their next campaign to actually look at the country and create the correct environment to develop some regions, in France we still have the "empty diagonal" and the littoral isn't exploited to its fullest, there is no actual industrial plans and no government try to help the creation of a strong industry oriented to the export.
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France and the UK have the same problems as regard politicians, the same as many other countries. They have no real interest in the welfare of the country or the people.
I was involved in the last French presidentials in that I was working in industry in France at the time. Sarkozy's government were desperate for companies to stay properous leading up to the election, promising all sorts to encourage investment and maintaining jobs - had numerous meetings with the government ministers and officials. As soon as the election was over and Hollande got in, no interest from the government whatsoever.

France is a vast country compared to the UK in size but with a similar population, that is where they differ. France have still managed to hold on to more industry than the UK has.
 
JPRouve said:
You know the more I read about it and the more I think that France and the UK have more or less the same problems. I feel that there is a lack of territory management(I don't know if it's the correct expression), politicians are too busy preparing their next campaign to actually look at the country and create the correct environment to develop some regions, in France we still have the "empty diagonal" and the littoral isn't exploited to its fullest, there is no actual industrial plans and no government try to help the creation of a strong industry oriented to the export.
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The problem with industrial policy and economic development of regions is, that governments are fairly clueless about it. In the UK about 50% of all regional development plans end up having no positive effect at all (my guess is, that the numbers in other countries might be worse). That number is staggering, but not surprising, because they focus on high profile pet-projects instead of doing useful things.

There is no short cut here. Many modern industrial sectors benefit centralization (geographically), which makes it difficult to develop the periphery. Additionally most plans that invest in “stones” are wasted money, because education is what matters. Yet educated people are mobile and investing in skills doesn’t win elections, because you can’t cut a ribbon.

There are some similarities between the UK and France, but overall both countries face very different challenges. A similarity is, that both countries are fairly centralized (compared to countries like Germany or Italy). There is a shift in attitudes in the UK and a push for more regionalization. In France it continues to be all about Paris and I doubt there is any political will to adapt.
 
Bury Red said:
That would rely on any of them wanting to do the right thing when they'd rather be doing the far right thing.

It's a weird world when the House of Lords are the only ones talking sense.
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Despite the moral point about them being unelected, the Lords quite often do the right thing legislatively. Being free from electoral concerns makes them a lot more considered and free from populist mood swings.
 
Kentonio said:
Despite the moral point about them being unelected, the Lords quite often do the right thing legislatively. Being free from electoral concerns makes them a lot more considered and free from populist mood swings.
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Fair point on the Lords not fearing the electorate although my jibe about wanting to do the right thing was aimed more at our elected government doing the right thing for the country and blaming the Lords for overturning Brexit. It was obviously far too subtle as non of the Brexiteers in here have complained that I called them fascists again, yet.
 
Bury Red said:
Fair point on the Lords not fearing the electorate although my jibe about wanting to do the right thing was aimed more at our elected government doing the right thing for the country and blaming the Lords for overturning Brexit. It was obviously far too subtle as non of the Brexiteers in here have complained that I called them fascists again, yet.
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Aye, they'll use the Lords as a short term blame and then later when it all goes to shit it'll be a combination of the EU's fault and the 48% of the country that wouldn't help Make Britain Great Again.

Also lol.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
In France you can have dual nationality, my wife's French, she lived in the UK for over 30 years but never took British nationality ( as she didn't need to) and now I've lived nearly 10 years in France and until now didn't need to take French nationality.
Our kids have dual nationality as do our grandkids.

Every country has different rules though (despite what Brexiters say), I believe Spain and Holland don't allow dual nationality.

It's costing me €55 and I'm doing it just to be on the safe side although I was thinking of doing it anyway as I'm never going back. But I'm not having some Brexiter deciding my future for me.
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In the same situation. In my case I have lived and worked 8 years in Spain (I am self employed). My wife is a Spanish national, so is my daughter. Seems that in Spain they do not allow dual nationality, although you can obtain Spanish citizenship and retain UK citizenship, the latter will just not be recognised as valid within Spain. So that would result in me being a citizen of 2 countries, rather than a dual citizen.

If I just stay with the status quo there are several concerns. What will the requirements be to work given I am self employed? What happens to pensions contributions paid in the UK? What happens to health coverage? What happens when I simply want to drive around Europe and the visa challenges there? In the end it is not really going to be a choice and Spanish citizenship will likely be the only option on the table.
 
Count Orduck said:
Why are people still responding to StanleyRoad? He's a raving loon. He's changed his arguments a dozen times, has provided the sum total of feck all evidence for any of his outrageously unfounded claims, and articulates his awful arguments about as well as particularly incoherent three year-old.

If you want an actual rational, reasoned opinion from a Brexiter then listen to Nick.
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What unfounded claims are those then wise one?
 
RedRoach said:
In the same situation. In my case I have lived and worked 8 years in Spain (I am self employed). My wife is a Spanish national, so is my daughter. Seems that in Spain they do not allow dual nationality, although you can obtain Spanish citizenship and retain UK citizenship, the latter will just not be recognised as valid within Spain. So that would result in me being a citizen of 2 countries, rather than a dual citizen.

If I just stay with the status quo there are several concerns. What will the requirements be to work given I am self employed? What happens to pensions contributions paid in the UK? What happens to health coverage? What happens when I simply want to drive around Europe and the visa challenges there? In the end it is not really going to be a choice and Spanish citizenship will likely be the only option on the table.
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You raise valid questions and probably won't know for sure for some time.
However, if you intend staying in Spain for good, I'd get Spanish citizenship.

For the pension if you keep paying the necessary contributions you should still get the pension whether you're in the EU or not. For health cover , are you using the EU card from the UK or are you integrated into the Spanish system - personally I integrated into the French system as soon as I moved to France, I actually have the EU card for returning to the UK in case I need the NHS.

So you don't have to rely on the whim of the Uk government, I would remove doubt and get the citizenship.

There is still a possibility that the Uk will be so desperate for the single market that nothing will actually change.
 
Bury Red said:
It is called slavery regardless of the colour of a person's skin Stan, hence the title of the Modern Day Slavery Act passed by the UK government in 2015 as an attempt to combat this abuse. It's an issue globally and I'm pretty sure the estimate of 13,000 modern slaves in the UK does not include those employed on pitiful wages picking fruit or labouring on the UK's construction sites despite the intention of the act for it to do so especially when many of them have had their paperwork withheld or are being back charged ludicrous amounts for their journey to the UK or their pitiful accommodation.

The EU did not cause this however, capitalism did and it exists in every develloped or developing country on this planet with some 36 Million people globally being classified as slaves today. The answer to slavery back in the 19th century wasn't to deport all blacks and close the borders and that's not the right answer now either, it's to enforce the existing labour laws and workers protections and push businesses that exploit vulnerable people for profit out of business. Do you really think the tories and their friends in big business are more likely to enforce that once the shackles of EU regulation are removed or do you imagine they'll just demonise migrants a bit more and throw up a few xenophobic hurdles at the borders to placate the kippers whilst assuring their cronies that it's business as usual via strategically placed loopholes?
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I don't see the connection between the 2 periods, I don't think anyone in the 19th c travelled anywhere wanting to become a slave, however, if they weren't allowed to disembark anywhere history might have been different.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I still stand by my economic predictions which is not going to help the UK or even the EU, even if it is to a lesser extent. Not everyone is racist, but there is certainly a large xenophobic nature to Brexit. There is also the misinformation about how the EU controls the UK.
When the legal side of it was referred to the Uk courts, judges were labelled as traitors, when the sovereignty issue comes up, Brexiters don't want parliament , which is sovereign, to vote on A50, when the House of Lords vote, they are threatened with being expunged if they don't comply.

What exactly do Brexiters want?

If the Uk goes down the tube economically it is not going to affect me. If the Uk throw out all EU citizens and the EU reciprocates it's not going to affect me either.

Globalisation is here, as said Boris - Can you remember when the UK was so divided
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To answer the bold re divided, not by drama queens at any rate.

As to what brexiters want? really, really???? you've been posting in this thread for months. You'd probably know if brexit supporters weren't abused and shouted down at the first comment, or you've simply not listened.

Good to know you are not economically affected, so you don't have skin in the game in that case.
 
Chorley1974 said:
To answer the bold re divided, not by drama queens at any rate.

As to what brexiters want? really, really???? you've been posting in this thread for months. You'd probably know if brexit supporters weren't abused and shouted down at the first comment, or you've simply not listened.

Good to know you are not economically affected, so you don't have skin in the game in that case.
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Just as well you only post in threads that affect you directly, didn't I see you in the Trump thread, you're not living in the USA and I don't think you're American either.

People I know are affected by Brexit, so I do have an interest. Will free speech be another thing that will be forbidden soon .

We've heard what Brexiters say they want, all the arguments cannot be substantiated
As for the insults and abuse , most of that has come from supporters of Brexit, when their arguments fall flat every time and they get upset.

You seem particularly upset by my posts, as if I was the only one debunking the arguments, there are many on here who are doing the same, there are also a fair number of people looking from the outside who aren't from the Uk or even Europe but they don't seem to bother you, wonder what your problem is, Mr Remainer
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Just as well you only post in threads that affect you directly, didn't I see you in the Trump thread, you're not living in the USA and I don't think you're American either.

People I know are affected by Brexit, so I do have an interest. Will free speech be another thing that will be forbidden soon .

We've heard what Brexiters say they want, all the arguments cannot be substantiated
As for the insults and abuse , most of that has come from supporters of Brexit, when their arguments fall flat every time and they get upset.

You seem particularly upset by my posts, as if I was the only one debunking the arguments, there are many on here who are doing the same, there are also a fair number of people looking from the outside who aren't from the Uk or even Europe but they don't seem to bother you, wonder what your problem is, Mr Remainer
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Let's just see how how your doomsday predictions materialise, no?
 
Chorley1974 said:
To answer the bold re divided, not by drama queens at any rate.

As to what brexiters want? really, really???? you've been posting in this thread for months. You'd probably know if brexit supporters weren't abused and shouted down at the first comment, or you've simply not listened.
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Can you introduce the writer of the first part of this to that of the second?
 
Wibble said:
I know but why is it the EU's fault that the UK isn't enforcing the law?
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While they are not responsible for enforcing the law in the uk they have made it easier for people to get to the slave farms with fom imo. I feel they have a duty to at least warn europeans that "this is what awaits you".

All I hear is "but thats not the eu fault" and while it may sometimes be true, then why pay into a union that appears to be able to make rules and guidelines that all countries can ignore?

When i moved to nl i had to visit the alien police every 3 months to prove i could support myself. Whats wrong with that?

Fom is partly to blame for the scale of the problem in my opinion.
 
Stanley Road said:
While they are not responsible for enforcing the law in the uk they have made it easier for people to get to the slave farms with fom imo. I feel they have a duty to at least warn europeans that "this is what awaits you".

All I hear is "but thats not the eu fault" and while it may sometimes be true, then why pay into a union that appears to be able to make rules and guidelines that all countries can ignore?

When i moved to nl i had to visit the alien police every 3 months to prove i could support myself. Whats wrong with that?

Fom is partly to blame for the scale of the problem in my opinion.
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Where to even start replying to an absolute clusterfeck of an opinion like this.↑

The UK will still allow tourists from all of Europe after Brexit, and they'll just stay illegally in "slave farms". Only the fecking UK can prevent that, what is true now will be true then.
 
Chorley1974 said:
To answer the bold re divided, not by drama queens at any rate.

As to what brexiters want? really, really???? you've been posting in this thread for months. You'd probably know if brexit supporters weren't abused and shouted down at the first comment, or you've simply not listened.

Good to know you are not economically affected, so you don't have skin in the game in that case.
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I'm not personally economically affected that much either, but you cannot brush off people that are living in Europe as not having skin in the game or not being impacted. I have a British passport, my wife and daughter have Spanish nationality. However I have family who continue to live in the UK. My children wish to continue to see their family and now there is significant uncertainty over how that would work.

I am no longer comfortable for example sending my kids on assisted flights to the UK knowing that there may be issues on the border. Apart from that being children of a British national I don't see why their opportunity to study and work in the UK if that is their choice should be taken away from them.

Europe being linked together this long means there are significant numbers of families that have links to both the UK and the continent who will be impacted by all of this and for what? When I visit the UK I see Spanish people working in bars, hotels, shops, as nurses, caring for the elderly etc. the kinds of jobs that the locals simply don't want to do. Unemployment is low, those who want work have it. In the last 20 years the quality of life in the UK has improved significantly largely due to the influence of Europe improving the food, restaurant, culture and standards.

The problems that do exist are largely a side effect of a strong economy (house prices, lack of housing, immigration).

It is truly a shame that all of that progress is to be thrown out the window for seemingly no real gain and a likely negative impact on the economy.
 
Stanley Road said:
While they are not responsible for enforcing the law in the uk they have made it easier for people to get to the slave farms with fom imo. I feel they have a duty to at least warn europeans that "this is what awaits you".

All I hear is "but thats not the eu fault" and while it may sometimes be true, then why pay into a union that appears to be able to make rules and guidelines that all countries can ignore?
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The UK actively chooses and indeed fights not to be "controlled" by Brussels in this way.

Blaming the EU and then using this fake blame game to justify leaving the EU is disingenuous at best but it is what the leave campaign based their propaganda on.

Freedom of movement is a great idea especially as, unlike popular perception, you can't just sod off to another country an collect the dole forever. British expats like yourself have gained hugely from this and reducing the inefficiency, administration and cost that used to occur is a nobrainer. It results in a net gain to the UK coffers of 2 billion quid a year I believe.
 
Wibble said:
The UK actively chooses and indeed fights not to be "controlled" by Brussels in this way.

Blaming the EU and then using this fake blame game to justify leaving the EU is disingenuous at best but it is what the leave campaign based their propaganda on.

Freedom of movement is a great idea especially as, unlike popular perception, you can't just sod off to another country an collect the dole forever. British expats like yourself have gained hugely from this and reducing the inefficiency, administration and cost that used to occur is a nobrainer. It results in a net gain to the UK coffers of 2 billion quid a year I believe.
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How does britain gain from migrants on less than 2 quid an hour?
 
Stanley Road said:
How does britain gain from migrants on less than 2 quid an hour?
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It keeps the prices of fruit, cockles and the likes down and reduces labour costs in the construction market whilst increasing the profits of the unscrupulous companies who employ them, the same is true in Germany, Dubai, Singapore and every other developed economy that fails in its duty to adequately police businesses who exploit people for profit.

It's wrong, it is slavery but how has the EU made it any worse? Were the 21 Chinese cockle pickers that died in Morecambe Bay smuggled in because of FOM? Were the 71 Syrians who suffocated in the back of a van in Austria using their FOM? Vulnerable people make bad choices and take risks in trying to improve their lives, unscrupulous bastards exploit them, the world keeps turning but hey, why not blame the EU for it?
 
Stanley Road said:
While they are not responsible for enforcing the law in the uk they have made it easier for people to get to the slave farms with fom imo. I feel they have a duty to at least warn europeans that "this is what awaits you".

All I hear is "but thats not the eu fault" and while it may sometimes be true, then why pay into a union that appears to be able to make rules and guidelines that all countries can ignore?

When i moved to nl i had to visit the alien police every 3 months to prove i could support myself. Whats wrong with that?

Fom is partly to blame for the scale of the problem in my opinion.
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How well do you think governments and the right wing press would take it if the EU started publicity campaigns to point out those failures?

It really isn't the EU's fault. They can only enforce EU law. The minimum wage is sovereign
 
Some people are so blinded by hatred of the EU that literally anything is their fault.

Perhaps that will be a nice net positive of Brexit? Our politicians and people will have nobody to blame but themselves?

Ah, who am I kidding? We'll still find a way to put the blame for our troubles on them.
 
africanspur said:
Some people are so blinded by hatred of the EU that literally anything is their fault.

Perhaps that will be a nice net positive of Brexit? Our politicians and people will have nobody to blame but themselves?

Ah, who am I kidding? We'll still find a way to put the blame for our troubles on them.
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When Brexit goes tits up, it'll be the fault of the EU for not giving is a nice deal and the 48% for moaning.

When the deal goes shit they'll continue to blame migrants and their offspring for the state of the nation. They can't blame themselves, they'd be voted out of power
 
May is straight-facedly making a speech in which she attacks the SNP for wanting to leave the UK and "wrench Scotland out of its biggest market"

"It simply doesn't add up and we should never stop saying so".
 
Bury Red said:
It keeps the prices of fruit, cockles and the likes down and reduces labour costs in the construction market whilst increasing the profits of the unscrupulous companies
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well we need to keep the price realistic, if things become too expensive then no-one will buy and exploiter will go bust. That's life.

Yes I do believe fom has made it easier for eastern Europeans to make stupid choices.
 
Mozza said:
It really isn't the EU's fault. They can only enforce EU law. The minimum wage is sovereign
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Yeah right. Of course it's the EU's fault. The free movement of labour has always been the dogma and a holy one. Where free movement of goods and capital are limited and regulated by the EU itself, when it's the free movement of labour the EU has only prevented nationals governments of regulating it. Which EU country manages to enforce minimum wage with the enormous pressure on it from all those Eastern Europeans? And what about the jobs above minimum wage, is minimum wage the ideal for the left wing these days? There are millions of Eastern Europeans for who 500 pounds a month is a very good income relative to their cost of living, they are always going to put an enormous pressure on wages in countries with much higher cost of living. They are not going to spend it in the country they work in of course.

'But our workers don't want to do those jobs' Well, you're not paying enough then are you? And when employers pay more, employees will spend more, so you can still make good money. And what about all those Eastern Europeans away from their families and friends living in caravans? Is that the left wing ideal for the life of lorry drivers and builders? And who is paying the unemployment benefits for the Western European lorry drivers and builders? Right, Westen Europeans who managed to hang on to their jobs.

Work harder for less money, that's what the EU is about. Free movement of labour is great when it's about an exciting job or place to live that's not in your own country, but now it's about unfair competition to lower the cost of labour in favour of those who own. With a left wing like this, those who own don't need a right wing at all.
 
Untied said:
May is straight-facedly making a speech in which she attacks the SNP for wanting to leave the UK and "wrench Scotland out of its biggest market"

"It simply doesn't add up and we should never stop saying so".
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Absurd. No fecking wonder nearly half of us want out.
 
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