Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Bury Red]

The ship has been listing for years and despite that the uk has produced better growth figures than the eu. I don't know if you remember that thread about the economy on here where everyone was moaning that Europe was holding uk growth back? I bet some of the same people are arguing the case for prosperity is to remain in the eu.

No argument from me that the UK has had problems for many years, the main reason I was forced to seek work elsewhere for much of my career. I would argue that most, if not all of the UK's ills were of its own making however and that even the external influences like the global financial crisis were not the work of the evil EU.

Prior to the referendum the ship was showing signs of righting itself faster than the rest of Europe however for those in the bowels of HMS Britannia the cold water is still sloshing around at ballsack level and does not seem to be going down. The beneficiaries of the UK recovery were a small number of haves on the VIP deck and the resentment that has caused among the have nots has been skillfully exploited by the Brexit campaign.

Yes, the EU might have slowed our recovery a little bit however the regulations they implemented were generally for the benefit of the have nots in terms of better workers rights, minimum wage, job protection and moves to stop Chinese dumping in the EU market. There's a reason the haves want out of the EU and it's not for the benefits of the have nots who voted for Brexit.

 

[devilish]

I agree that the EU thing is very unlikely to happen.
Am surprised it's even an option that they have brought up!

On one hand they don't care about us and don't want to negotiate, on the other they are bending over backwards to accommodate us.

EU benefits minus all the stupid self-manufactured strings attached is ideal for us thanks!

They do care about the UK else they wouldn't have accepted you in when you were the sick person of Europe and endured Farage and his insults for years.

However the EU can't give in to the UK demands

a- The EU works on a single market basis. There's no deal in the world (between individual countries) that work like that. It means unrestricted access to anything from goods to services right to laws. A car be made with British steel, taken to Poland to be assembled and then back to France/Germany/UK for the final touches without paying 1 single tariff or suffering any sort of red tape. That allows the EU to be dynamic and attract business to countries who either have the expertise but not the cheap labour and vice versa. No country can say, "well I like unrestricted access to your people's money and market but I don't want their people".

b- While Cameron was right in asking for reforms, these things take time. The EU is not like the UK were England can drag the rest in decisions they don't want to take. It works on consensus and that take time.

The EU doesn't hate the UK. No one compared you to Nazis as Boris did or dream of seeing the UK crippled as most Brexiters want. If they did, then they would offered a good deal to N Ireland and Scotland giving them ammo to the SNP to push for another referendum on independence and weakening the UK's stance in the world.

The proper word to describe the EU feelings towards the UK is that of acceptance. They have accepted that you never embraced the idea of being part of a unified Europe where everybody has the same rights in the first place and honestly they have more things on their plate then Brexit. Sure the UK is a prosperous country but there are other priorities like making CETA work, any possible deal with China, the internal problems European countries are struggling in, the immigration problem and an increased level of hostility from both the West (the US) and the East (Russia). Surely you can take care of yourself without 'Brussels' doing that on your behalf right?

 

[nick2004]

You voted out, not the EU chucking you out, what is there to negotiate - no FoM = no Single Market, no cherry picking - you wanted out - get out and deal with the problems you are bringing on yourselves.
The EU didn't want the Uk to leave - but if it does finally go then you have to look after yourself and there is no way the EU are going to make it easy.

And I doubt the idea about associate membership will ever happen.

This is true!

If Britain could get out of the EU and get a favorable deal, then this would be the end of the EU because everyone else would want to get out of the EU and get a favorable deal! The only way to preserve the EU is to prove that leaving the EU means self-destruction! Britain is fecked actually.

 

[Stanley Road]

Self destruction

 

[Wibble]

No argument from me that the UK has had problems for many years, the main reason I was forced to seek work elsewhere for much of my career. I would argue that most, if not all of the UK's ills were of its own making however and that even the external influences like the global financial crisis were not the work of the evil EU.

Prior to the referendum the ship was showing signs of righting itself faster than the rest of Europe however for those in the bowels of HMS Britannia the cold water is still sloshing around at ballsack level and does not seem to be going down. The beneficiaries of the UK recovery were a small number of haves on the VIP deck and the resentment that has caused among the have nots has been skillfully exploited by the Brexit campaign.

Yes, the EU might have slowed our recovery a little bit however the regulations they implemented were generally for the benefit of the have nots in terms of better workers rights, minimum wage, job protection and moves to stop Chinese dumping in the EU market. There's a reason the haves want out of the EU and it's not for the benefits of the have nots who voted for Brexit.

Spot in Bury. The huge irony of the current rise of Trump, Brexit type stuff and One Nation (again) in Australia is that it is the have-nots are voting to allow the evil empire the feck them in the arse even more efficiently and not voting for the parties that at least give an occasional shit about them.

 

[Stanley Road]

Spot in Bury. The huge irony of the current rise of Trump, Brexit type stuff and One Nation (again) in Australia is that it is the have-nots are voting to allow the evil empire the feck them in the arse even more efficiently and not voting for the parties that at least give an occasional shit about them.

Asking people to vote for the same shit that has fecked you over for decades is a hard sell. Maybe when the mainstream parties have all been kicked In the teeth they might start to think how they can change to please joe soap. Sometimes things need to get worse before they get better.

 

[Bury Red]

Asking people to vote for the same shit that has fecked you over for decades is a hard sell. Maybe when the mainstream parties have all been kicked In the teeth they might start to think how they can change to please joe soap. Sometimes things need to get worse before they get better.

You're not wrong in that asking people to vote for bad and not quite so bad over and over has left people disillusioned. They've not voted for something completely different to shake up the status quo though, both the UK and the US have voted for something that looked different but that is merely a charade hiding a far worse, unfettered version of the same system that has fecked them over for decades.

You don't genuinely believe that May, Johnson, Davies etc are genuinely interested in helping the common man and finding the best deal to improve his prosperity do you? They'll do as they please without any restraint from Europe, allow big business to feck over those who are lucky enough to have a job, screw down the welfare system to the point where those without are living even closer to breaking point and shaft the NHS in favour of private medical insurance. As for Trump, beyond lining his own pockets and screwing over anyone who has ever slighted him do you really believe he is about to do anything to benefit the underemployed blue collar workers who voted him into power?

Maybe it will just be a horrible few years that forces Labour, the Democrats or some all new party to sort their goals out and come riding to the rescue. For the UK however, the risk that completely severing ties with the EU and heading off into the unknown with no plan in place and a bunch of incompetent buffoons led by a pantomime villain at the helm could ensure the UK is so screwed up by the time rescue arrives that we are beyond help. If austerity whilst the political classes carried on quaffing champagne and lining their pockets was hard for the working class to take, how will those who are already clinging on to food bank and charity shop donations, pay day loans and slum landlords going to cope when the country is faring even worse financially, when food and energy prices rise further and when all the shackles that restrained business and the political elite from truly exploiting their serfdom are removed? Will they rise up in the workers revolt you and I would love to see and take back their country or will they knuckle under and continue blaming the bitter ex of the EU and the limpet like immigrants who Saint Theresa was unable to prise from the bow as it turned out they were needed here after all?

As for the US with the evil crown prince heading for his coronation it could well be a hilarious 4 years as he blunders and blusters from one political faux pas to another, I may even enjoy a touch of schadenfreude as the self proclaimed last bastion of democracy and greatest country that has ever existed TM is fecked over by the bastard son of their own political arrogance. There's just the slight worry that he might actually start WWIII putting a dampener on things.

 

[devilish]

The uk voted to leave the eu and that must be respected.however they should also vote on which deal they want for their country

In my opinion the uk should work on 2 strateies in parallel ie the tory version of brexit and an eea membership. Once the 2 years pass then they should allow voters to vote

A- their fudged deal

B- eea membership

C- hard brexit

A and C might easily be the same thing

 

[Brwned]

Asking people to vote for the same shit that has fecked you over for decades is a hard sell. Maybe when the mainstream parties have all been kicked In the teeth they might start to think how they can change to please joe soap. Sometimes things need to get worse before they get better.

Alternatively sometimes making things worse just lowers the bar even further, so the mainstream parties can come back in offering even less for "joe soap" and still be heralded as a step forward.

 

[Stanley Road]

You're not wrong in that asking people to vote for bad and not quite so bad over and over has left people disillusioned. They've not voted for something completely different to shake up the status quo though, both the UK and the US have voted for something that looked different but that is merely a charade hiding a far worse, unfettered version of the same system that has fecked them over for decades.

You don't genuinely believe that May, Johnson, Davies etc are genuinely interested in helping the common man and finding the best deal to improve his prosperity do you? They'll do as they please without any restraint from Europe, allow big business to feck over those who are lucky enough to have a job, screw down the welfare system to the point where those without are living even closer to breaking point and shaft the NHS in favour of private medical insurance. As for Trump, beyond lining his own pockets and screwing over anyone who has ever slighted him do you really believe he is about to do anything to benefit the underemployed blue collar workers who voted him into power?

Well the UK hardly shook up the status quo by voting the Tory party back into govt, you know the ones that offered a referendum as a bribe. I imagine the uk will vote them back in in 2020 and I find that abhorrent. The fact that you voted them in you can have no problem whatsoever with brexit, how could you???

Do I think may and co will do anything for the common man? No, course not, no Tory ever has. I would advise citizens of the uk to vote for anyone but the tories cos they are a waste of space. Until then I don't really think the status quo has been kicked in the teeth, a gentle slap maybe. In this day and age of social media I cant imagine it would be to difficult to 'rig' an election to get any party into power.

Personally a leap into the unknown is better than carrying on with the same old shit

 

[Stanley Road]

Alternatively sometimes making things worse just lowers the bar even further, so the mainstream parties can come back in offering even less for "joe soap" and still be heralded as a step forward.

Yes, a bit like saying an economy is growing when its half the size it was in 2008

 

[Kentonio]

Personally a leap into the unknown is better than carrying on with the same old shit

This is completely illogical. The same people making the country worse off have just been handed the freedom to do whatever the hell they like for probably another 5-10 years and one of the main controls for preventing them hurting the poorest will no longer exist. All those huge redevelopment budgets for deprived areas? Gone. All those workers rights protections? Now in the hands of the Tories. Step into the unknown? What a crock, it's nothing more or less than the turkeys voting for Christmas.

 

[Stanley Road]

This is completely illogical. The same people making the country worse off have just been handed the freedom to do whatever the hell they like for probably another 5-10 years and one of the main controls for preventing them hurting the poorest will no longer exist. All those huge redevelopment budgets for deprived areas? Gone. All those workers rights protections? Now in the hands of the Tories. Step into the unknown? What a crock, it's nothing more or less than the turkeys voting for Christmas.

How much worse can no home, no food, no money, no hope and no chance of a job get?

If I compare my workers rights to those in the uk I'm not sure you actually have any. As those rights are set by the govt why don't you vote for someone else? no, that's be stupid.

 

[Bury Red]

Personally a leap into the unknown is better than carrying on with the same old shit

If you were jumping alongside us Stan that would be one thing and your opinion, whilst mad, might be more valid. You're not jumping though, you're standing safely on your cliff edge in the Netherlands ushering on the lemmings and their dream of flying.

How much worse can no home, no food, no money, no hope and no chance of a job get?

If I compare my workers rights to those in the uk I'm not sure you actually have any. As those rights are set by the govt why don't you vote for someone else? no, that's be stupid.

We're on the same page, do you imagine many of those you are arguing with here voted for Cameron? The problem is the number of people who fall for the lies of the Sun, Mail etc and vote for Christmas despite their being turkeys. You would hope that the outcome of the election would shake up Labour or the Lib Dems to provide a viable alternative but do you really see either of them competing for an election in the near future? I'm not even sure we'll see either party as competent or electable again within my lifetime unless they again go down the Blair route and become Tory lite.

 

[Stanley Road]

If you were jumping alongside us Stan that would be one thing and your opinion, whilst mad, might be more valid. You're not jumping though, you're standing safely on your cliff edge in the Netherlands ushering on the lemmings and their dream of flying.

Well we may have our own referendum soon but I am not able to vote. Its a bit of a shame really cos I despise most of the mainstream politicians.

As I have said before, I really want the uk to do well outside of the eu. While I never want to work in the uk ever again, I have thought about living there in the future if I did not have to work.

 

[Stanley Road]

If you were jumping alongside us Stan that would be one thing and your opinion, whilst mad, might be more valid. You're not jumping though, you're standing safely on your cliff edge in the Netherlands ushering on the lemmings and their dream of flying.

We're on the same page, do you imagine many of those you are arguing with here voted for Cameron? The problem is the number of people who fall for the lies of the Sun, Mail etc and vote for Christmas despite their being turkeys. You would hope that the outcome of the election would shake up Labour or the Lib Dems to provide a viable alternative but do you really see either of them competing for an election in the near future? I'm not even sure we'll see either party as competent or electable again within my lifetime unless they again go down the Blair route and become Tory lite.

I am not sure how many, marching and wolfy are sticks of tory rock.

Again, you've kind of hinted that there isn't any viable option but the tories, that's absurd. Get together and vote for someone like lord such or anyone. You cant keep the same shit in govt and expect me or anyone to take their concerns seriously.

 

[Smores]

This argument over Mays trousers is brilliant. Nicky Morgan banned from a Brexit discussion because lf commenting on another womans fashion

The worst part is the text back from Hill COS using the words "So there". No grown up adult especially one in goverment should be using that phrasing ffs.

 

[Bury Red]

I am not sure how many, marching and wolfy are sticks of tory rock.

Again, you've kind of hinted that there isn't any viable option but the tories, that's absurd. Get together and vote for someone like lord such or anyone. You cant keep the same shit in govt and expect me or anyone to take their concerns seriously.

Marcher was pro Brexit so he's on your side here which should tell you something, at least Paul is a pro EU tory which you'd really expect from someone living elsewhere in the EU.

Hate to break this to you but Lord Sutch hung himself almost 20 years ago, the problem in the UK is that there is no togetherness among any of the alternative parties and it's not as simple as just saying we should get together and make it so. This country and it's press have fawned over Thatcher for most of my life and have never got over this delusion that her way is the only way forward for Britain, whilst the media have become ever more powerful and cynically manipulative in the bare faced lies they peddle to a public who lap it all up.

Any hope British politics had of preventing it's inexorable slide into tory succession died along with John Smith, the vague hopes offered by Blair were a thin tissue of lies that rapidly disintegrated to show the tory he had always been whilst any vague hope of the North reining in the tories was lost when Cameron played his first referendum card so well and killed off labour in Scotland whilst effectively corralling the vaguely promising SNP in Hollrood.

 

[Kentonio]

How much worse can no home, no food, no money, no hope and no chance of a job get?

If I compare my workers rights to those in the uk I'm not sure you actually have any. As those rights are set by the govt why don't you vote for someone else? no, that's be stupid.

No one in Britain is at rock bottom. Not a single solitary soul has experienced quite how utterly fecked life can be. This idea that 'it couldn't get any worse' is the most idiotic bullshit ever. Try having a critical disease and not having access to healthcare and then let's talk about steps into the unknown.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I am not sure how many, marching and wolfy are sticks of tory rock.

Again, you've kind of hinted that there isn't any viable option but the tories, that's absurd. Get together and vote for someone like lord such or anyone. You cant keep the same shit in govt and expect me or anyone to take their concerns seriously.

Never voted for Cameron, last GE I voted in was 2005

 

[Stanley Road]

No one in Britain is at rock bottom. Not a single solitary soul has experienced quite how utterly fecked life can be. This idea that 'it couldn't get any worse' is the most idiotic bullshit ever. Try having a critical disease and not having access to healthcare and then let's talk about steps into the unknown.

Right ok

 

[Stanley Road]

Hate to break this to you but Lord Sutch hung himself almost 20 years ago

Yes I know, could probably do a better job from beyond the grave

 

[Manny]

If you were jumping alongside us Stan that would be one thing and your opinion, whilst mad, might be more valid. You're not jumping though, you're standing safely on your cliff edge in the Netherlands ushering on the lemmings and their dream of flying.

This

 

[Stanley Road]

Marcher was pro Brexit

His posts in this thread suggest otherwise

 

[Crossie]

Poll suggests public will not accept a Brexit that leaves them worse off
Surveys from YouGov and Which? point to a growing worry that Brexit will leave the UK poorer

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov

I just love this one:

Brexit voters in areas where a majority of people backed EU withdrawal are among those most unhappy to be left worse off, according to the study – including 59% in the north and 54% in Wales and the Midlands.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

The polls said we wouldn't vote leave so I wouldn't give them much weight.

 

[Rightnr]

The polls said we wouldn't vote leave so I wouldn't give them much weight.

Not sure what polls you looked at but most polls were within the margin of error which was what that mad scientist looking guy on the BBC emphasised a number of times. In fact, some polls the night before got it almost spot on.

This nonsense about a prediction being wrong and that therefore we shouldn't use predictions or forecasts to inform decisions anymore must be the stupidest and most damaging trend that begun with the referendum campaign.

Most people giving their opinion on forecasts have not got a the slightest idea about modelling or how these things work yet try to act like experts on the matter.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Not sure what polls you looked at but most polls were within the margin of error which was what that mad scientist looking guy on the BBC emphasised a number of times. In fact, some polls the night before got it almost spot on.

This nonsense about a prediction being wrong and that therefore we shouldn't use predictions or forecasts to inform decisions anymore must be the stupidest and most damaging trend that begun with the referendum campaign.

Most people giving their opinion on forecasts have not got a the slightest idea about modelling or how these things work yet try to act like experts on the matter.

The problem with your perfectly valid statement about polling is you then go on to do exactly the same incorrect thing. You take a poll which is meaningless and extrapolate the thinking you want to believe from it and then you say well the polls don't really say anything for certain.

Which is it?

Are the polls you quote better than the exit polls showing a hung parliament, a remain vote, Clinton victory etc?


No they are not and any conclusions from them are close to meaningless, which is why all the polling firms are in a deep funk about the validity of their results.

 

[Rightnr]

My point was that you can use the polls by looking at trends. For example, the closer we got to Brexit day, the narrower the polls became.

If polls are pointing to discontent now, that is also a valid conclusion. You cannot predict accurately but you can make high-level observations based on recorded data.

That is how I look at polls at least.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Another idea, England and Wales leave the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/12/england-wales-eu-brexit-article-50

 

[AshfordLad]

While this is an idiotic idea in context of Brexit, sooner or later the English do need to get a choice of dissolving the Union. The scots just cant be allowed to keep taking the piss with this good cop bad cop routine or voting no in referendum and then sending in snp to negotiate for more.

 

[Xeno]

English votes for English laws is at once both a fairly common-sense, uncontroversial political notion and a rallying cry for every right-wing, xenophobic bigot.

 

[Stanley Road]

Another idea, England and Wales leave the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/12/england-wales-eu-brexit-article-50

What currency would everyone use?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What currency would everyone use?

Groats

 

[Stanley Road]

Scrotes?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Scrotes?

There's a lot of them about

 

[jackofalltrades]

Time to start negotiating with the WTO. Only around 160 countries so it'll be done in no time. Spain and Argentina will delighted.

 

[Bury Red]

What currency would everyone use?

I'm assuming we would continue with the ever diminishing pound whilst Scotland and NI would have a couple of years to transition to the Euro which I doubt would be a problem for wither of them and may even be a big boost to cross border business for NI.

 

[devilish]

Another idea, England and Wales leave the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/12/england-wales-eu-brexit-article-50

London should join them too. Imagine how England would fare without its food basket. Oh well there's always Liverpool

 

[Stanley Road]

I'm assuming we would continue with the ever diminishing pound whilst Scotland and NI would have a couple of years to transition to the Euro which I doubt would be a problem for wither of them and may even be a big boost to cross border business for NI.

You make it sound so simple, don't forget its the eu they would be dealing with which we all know take an age to do anything.