Well said that man.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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So Greece cooked the books and Italy build a mountain of debt by political parties who used state money to win elections and its the EU fault? Let me ask you something is it also the EU fault that these country are so unefficient in tax evasion?
Greece did not cook the books, they were cooked for them.
Err, the Greeks voted to stay in the EU despite its failings. That should tell you all you need to know about whether they think it's good for them or not.
What the feck does "red white and blue brexit" mean?
The same as Brexit means Brexit. A punchline from an incompentent leader without a plan.
Person that suggested that line deserves the sack. I don't understand how someone was told to say something like that and think, that was a good idea.
1.: EU budget =/= Eurozone bailout programs. You are a net payer, but it still isn't what was reffered to, nobody denies GB was a net payer, although one playing under different rules then everyone else. But this money IS NOT used in any bailout programs, those are exclusive to Eurozone countries!
2.: As you may have noticed, quite a few people in Germany would have loved to just send Greece into bankrupty. Including me. Let those feckers sort out their mess themselves. I'm still convinced it would have been better to just let them crash in the long run, would have saved a lot of money and might have scared the Italians enough so they would've stopped being stupid.
And sorry to say, but I did know. Especially the Irish case is one I studied quite extensively, since it very well shows that Austerity can work under the right circumstances. Tbh, my knowledge is probably vastly superior to yours. It's a case study that is very common in political science atm. This will now relate to your point 3, because the Irish crisis wasn't one of currency, and no downrating of their currency would have ever saved them, the debt was just way too big. The Irish crisis was a combined crisis of the banking and real estate, which was caused by lax Irish regulations. I know you will use that to prove your "point" as long as you breathe, but in the context mentioned it is still wrong that GB participated in any of the Eurozone bailout programs, because it did not. Neither in the Greek, the Portuguese or the Irish bailout, the British paid one penny.
They decided to lend their neighbour money in a time of need, voluntarily. Please explain to me how the EU is responsible for that. Because it just isn't. If you are against lending money to states in crisis, you should probably protest the IMF, because GB has paid more money into that one in the past decade than it paid into any bailout programs in Europe.
Cause they know that they are better off for them. Take Italy as an example. Their economy was sitting on a mountain of debt and the EURO bailed them out. Instead of enjoying the prosperity the EURO brought to set things back in place they kept borrowing money to win elections and now they crippled the Eurozone too.
We keep mentioning the Eastern European countries without acknowledging that the biggest problems come from the old EU members. Its Spain, Italy and Greece whose financially crippling the Eurozone. Actually most of the new EU countries have a thriving economy (ex Malta, czech republic and Poland) whose doing extremely well.
They paid people to cook the books for them. Does it matter? It's a shithole of a country, and they voted to stay in the EU because they know that without it, they would compete in wealth with Gambia right now. We should have sacrificed them a long time ago just to prove the point tbh, would have been better for everyone.
As for your clapping to that Kill Bill dude, see above. You both obviously have huge deficits in understanding regarding the structure of the Union.
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Yeah, the new members are doing fine, especially the baltic states and the Polish. The others aren't as thriving, but also not in turmoil. It's the old ones causing problems due to unwillingness to reform, especially France, Spain and Italy. Those are the problem. The biggest problem is, these are to big to bail out. If those fail, they fail.
Red white and blue Brexit. The slogan Brexit was bad enough
Isn't those the colour of France's and the UK's flag?
I'd be better off with a bailout from my bank every few months. Hardly a sign that things are fab in the union
Unlike yourself that just said "We should have sacrificed them a long time ago just to prove the point tbh"
Something that cant actually happen but hey, yeah, deficiant
Your salary has now been revised to one Euro a day
It can. We could have just forced them by refusing to bail out. Just because there isn't a specific regulation for that case, doesn't mean it's not possible. When the second bailout was discussed, Schäuble explained in detail how it would work, the plans were on the table.
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I'm sure it's something nice about German arrogance, but people tend to forget there actually have been countries which refused to participate in the bailout, Slovenia for example.Most the Western world is in shambles. The UK sits on a mountain of debt which will be made bigger because of Brexit. The US are also heavily in debt and I doubt that putting a cretin in command will sort any things either.
In reality our parent’s generation lived way beyond in means (some countries more then others) and we’re now starting feeling the pinch. Take myself as an example. Most of my uncles or aunts either bought their houses on ridiculous prices or were given an apartment for free by the government. They worked in a stable job (most moved jobs once or twice in their entire life) and raised their families in an environment where the government providing them for everything (top quality,free education for their children (including tertiary education), children allowance etc). Wives barely worked ever, and once the husband reached the 62 years of age he’ll retired from his stable job and lived on a full pension that allows his family to afford to travel and have fun. These days people go in a 40 years mortgage to afford a house. Meanwhile we’re paying for an NHS we barely use and which we all know that by the time we start using it it will be privatised, we pay for a pension we’ll probably never get (by the time we retire pensionable age will be around 120 years) and whose money is necessary to keep these buddies happy etc. This generation are the suckers who came late at restaurant and have to pay the bill for everybody. Don’t worry, the next generation will probably be worse off. In matter of fact I won’t be surprised if either us or the generation after us will be involved in a world war, anytime soon.
I, like most people who were lucky to have access to Italian media were raised up on watching Fantozzi on TV. He’s a sort of Italian version of Mr Bean (he speaks though). Basically this guy works in a very unlucky life were he’s got all sort of misfortunes at work, family and life. A few months ago someone said that he’d love to have a life like Fantozzi. He had a permanent and stable job, the government subsidized everything for him, he could afford holidays, he watched most of the Serie A games without spending a penny etc. Guess what? He’s right.
Also it is ironic that you’re putting the blame on both the EU and the banks especially since that’s the main argument between Italy and the EU at the moment is that the former wants to subsidize banks and the EU is saying no to it. Italy had been a farce for the past 30 years with people linked to Mafia and whorers becoming prime minister. The head of opposition is frigging Grillo a professional comedian who entered politics because Berlusconi refused to give him a TV show on one of his private stations. Can you believe that? La Lega Nord (the Italian version of UKIP) founder who used to spend ages blaming everybody else for Italy’s mismanagement was found guilty of spending taxpayer’s money to fund his son’s lavish lifestyle (including a bogus degree from Albania) and buying diamonds for himself.
So can you really blame the EU for that?
I blame the EU of one thing and I will keep blaming it for it till it changes ie its naive. You can't expect countries to simply be on their best behaviour simply because not doing so will hurt the neighbour too. Hence why I want the EU to have teeth ie to be able to kick out anyone who keeps breaking the EU. If you finance me and I keep spending the money on XBox games then at one point you'll kick me out wouldn't you?
Feck me, I think @Don't Kill Bill (and myself and 99% of this forum in fairness) has just been well and truly schooled.
Any actual arguments apart from pointless sarcasm?
This is a lie.
I've admitted that I'm a Europhile but even i, think Greece should be kicked out.
Think the notion that Greece leaving could cause a domino effect is a myth. Greece is a basket case.
Think the notion that Greece leaving could cause a domino effect is a myth. Greece is a basket case.
It's not per se. They wanted them to be cooked and paid people to do that. If you are, like Stanley Road, desperate to prove a point you have to take very specific angles when looking at things.
Schäuble is a turd of the highest order.
Yes they can force bankruptcy on anyone, nice people. They would have felt the pain of that themselves, it was a thatcher style bluff.
As you know so much, tell me the about French involvement in this
I know books were cooked. But Stanley is giving the impression that Greece was not involved, which is ridiculous. It was done by GS and other on the orders of Greece.
They were involved, just look at the railway farce
Would've caused massive issues for the banking system and bond markets.
Kohl at least has to take an equal share of blame here. What a terrible chancellor he was, it's a shame the unification saved him.
I think markets are becoming more mature, in that markets aren't overreacting to schocks as much as before. They are becoming more resilient.
A managed Greek exit will be painful, no doubt but it think markets will factor it in relatively quickly. A country like Italy is another ball game.
It would've wiped a few billion off European banks' balance sheets- may have tipped some over the edge. Look how weak Deutsche Bank and some of the Italian banks are still.
Contagion in the bond market was a real threat. You could see how yields spiked in the sothern European states.
Contagion in the bond market was a real threat. You could see how yields spiked in the sothern European states.
Maybe now- don't think it was feasible in 2011.
I doubt it. The Greek bailout already was an indirect bailout of the banks, you could have just made it a direct one. Also, a lot of the worst offenders were killed off anyway, AlpeAdria and others.
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I admit. Back in 2012 and markets were very jumpy.
I know German banks have a lot of exposure to the Greece but I wasn't aware that Italian banks had the same.
My belief is that Greece is either going to default at some point or a huge chunk written off. It simply can't pay it back. The reforms and terms of the bailout are moving at snails pace. So that solace isn't even there.
But they are forecasting decent growth for next year. >2.5% I think. But it's not something another election can't ruin.