Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Penna]

I find it odd*that the Brexiteers, who were very big on sovereignty a few months ago and especially when Obama offered his opinion on Brexit, have gone awfully quiet following Trump's opinion that Farage should be a British ambassador. Very odd indeed.

*Not really.

It's shockingly rude and inappropriate from Trump, and very disrespectful to the current ambassador. Perhaps Mrs May should send Trump some suggestions of who she'd like for ambassador to the UK?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It's shockingly rude and inappropriate from Trump, and very disrespectful to the current ambassador. Perhaps Mrs May should send Trump some suggestions of who she'd like for ambassador to the UK?

Trump calling to influence UK politics through Twitter just highlights the bizarre reality that we are now living through.

 

[devilish]

It's shockingly rude and inappropriate from Trump, and very disrespectful to the current ambassador. Perhaps Mrs May should send Trump some suggestions of who she'd like for ambassador to the UK?

Can the UK truly afford not obeying to the US now?

 

[rcoobc]

Ireland managed ok

Ireland is a country of 5 million people. The UK is a country of 60 million people.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-kingdom.pdf
https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-ireland.pdf

Irish revenue from taxes on corporate profits : € 4,273m
UK revenue from taxes on corporate profits : £ 43,517m

It should be pretty clear to see how Ireland can drop corporation tax to a low rate, and make up the revenue from multinational companies.

But for the UK to do the same, they would have to attract at least 10 times as many multinational companies as Ireland did.

Not to mention that both Ireland and the UK's corporate tax revenues make up the same percentage of the total; 8%. But Ireland's tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is smaller. 33% compared to 29%

If the UK halved their corporate tax rate, and took every single Irish company, we'd still probably not break even.

 

[Stanley Road]

Ireland is a country of 5 million people. The UK is a country of 60 million people.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-kingdom.pdf
https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-ireland.pdf

Irish revenue from taxes on corporate profits : € 4,273m
UK revenue from taxes on corporate profits : £ 43,517m

It should be pretty clear to see how Ireland can drop corporation tax to a low rate, and make up the revenue from multinational companies.

But for the UK to do the same, they would have to attract at least 10 times as many multinational companies as Ireland did.

Not to mention that both Ireland and the UK's corporate tax revenues make up the same percentage of the total; 8%. But Ireland's tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is smaller. 33% compared to 29%

If the UK halved their corporate tax rate, and took every single Irish company, we'd still probably not break even.

Still, lots of countries do it but you don't want the UK to do anything, great

 

[jackofalltrades]

The UK has already gone against the US by joining the AIIB, which was criticised severely by the US as being part of the UK's "constant accommodation" to China. I think the UK has decided that, at least economically, the future lies in the East. Later, it will try to square the circle, no doubt.

 

[jackofalltrades]

Ireland is a country of 5 million people. The UK is a country of 60 million people.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-kingdom.pdf
https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-ireland.pdf

Irish revenue from taxes on corporate profits : € 4,273m
UK revenue from taxes on corporate profits : £ 43,517m

It should be pretty clear to see how Ireland can drop corporation tax to a low rate, and make up the revenue from multinational companies.

But for the UK to do the same, they would have to attract at least 10 times as many multinational companies as Ireland did.

Not to mention that both Ireland and the UK's corporate tax revenues make up the same percentage of the total; 8%. But Ireland's tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is smaller. 33% compared to 29%

If the UK halved their corporate tax rate, and took every single Irish company, we'd still probably not break even.

There are also international agreements in place between the G 20. Renaging on these will rub other states up the wrong way, but given that the Brexiters still think they can have their cake and eat it, it is not suprising.

 

[Penna]

Can the UK truly afford not obeying to the US now?

Yes we can, and Mr Trump has a steep learning curve to negotiate where diplomacy is concerned.

 

[Stanley Road]

It's shockingly rude and inappropriate from Trump, and very disrespectful to the current ambassador. Perhaps Mrs May should send Trump some suggestions of who she'd like for ambassador to the UK?

Well Obama stuck his nose into UK politics and made some idle threats whilst trying to manipulate a vote, why is Trump the demon now?

 

[JPRouve]

Still, lots of countries do it but you don't want the UK to do anything, great

Lots of countries is a stretch and most of these countries are small and don't redistribute the wealth.

 

[Dobba]

Well Obama stuck his nose into UK politics and made some idle threats whilst trying to manipulate a vote, why is Trump the demon now?

I love when the answer is in the question.

 

[devilish]

Yes we can, and Mr Trump has a steep learning curve to negotiate where diplomacy is concerned.

So lets say that Trump decides not to offer the UK a free trade deal. What happens? The UK is struggling with the EU to get the deal it wants. The US won't offer it, India had made it quite clear that any possible deal will be directly linked with freedom of movement (and its a tough cookie that even the EU struggles to crack), Canada had stated that the UK is at the back of her own queue. What happens next?

Trump doesn't like trade deals. He made that pretty obvious. He only needs 1 excuse to pull the plug out of a potential deal with the UK and guess who will be suffering the most?

 

[rcoobc]

Still, lots of countries do it but you don't want the UK to do anything, great

On the flip side of what I said, Ireland has a higher GDP per capita, so part of my argument doesn't ring true.

It's not that "I don't want the UK to do anything", but reducing the corporation tax isn't a silver bullet that certain people (pro-market?) tend to argue.

The UK is a country full of paradoxes. Tax is too high, but we're losing money. Spending is too high, but councils are battered for funds. Leaving the EU will hurt our GDP, so we've done it at the worse possible time.

What I really think is that, the additional tax rate is still too high. Corporation tax really pales in comparison (most multinational companies barely pay it anyway).

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Corporation tax, income tax, capital gains tax, VAT, National Insurance contributions, stamp duty etc etc etc are nothing to do with the EU.
These are all fixed by the National Governments.

The Government will chase after easy targets, those that do pay their taxes but they will try to squeeze as much as they can out of them. They won't bother with the big corporations because it's too much trouble and don't want to upset them.

All this is government inefficiency. Stop blaming everyone else.

 

[JPRouve]

Didn't know that

If it did and joe average in the uk started paying our tax rates it'd been 100% vote for exit

Sorry to ask but was that a sarcastic comment?

 

[Mozza]

Ireland managed ok

They will start to loose as you can see nations like the UK and US are starting to cut to compete

 

[Stanley Road]

Corporation tax, income tax, capital gains tax, VAT, National Insurance contributions, stamp duty etc etc etc are nothing to do with the EU.
These are all fixed by the National Governments.

Yes Paul we know

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes Paul we know

So if the UK want to entice businesses into the country, what has being in the EU or out of the EU got to do with it

 

[rcoobc]

Corporation tax, income tax, capital gains tax, VAT, National Insurance contributions, stamp duty etc etc etc are nothing to do with the EU.
These are all fixed by the National Governments.

The Government will chase after easy targets, those that do pay their taxes but they will try to squeeze as much as they can out of them. They won't bother with the big corporations because it's too much trouble and don't want to upset them.

All this is government inefficiency. Stop blaming everyone else.

Well, they are a bit to do with the EU.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well, they are a bit to do with the EU.

The levels of those are not set by the EU - all countries have different rates

 

[JPRouve]

Well, they are a bit to do with the EU.

Not really, they are at the discretion of each countries. Now due to the single market the VAT is bracketed.

 

[Stanley Road]

So if the UK want to entice businesses into the country, what has being in the EU or out of the EU got to do with it

I dunno what you are on about anymore Paul

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I dunno what you are on about anymore Paul

You have answered numerous points about Corporation Tax recently - have you Goldfish Memory Syndrome

 

[rcoobc]

The levels of those are not set by the EU - all countries have different rates

Not really, they are at the discretion of each countries. Now due to the single market the VAT is bracketed.

Yeah, but they are a bit to do with the EU.

The EU sets the broad VAT rules through European VAT Directives, and has set the minimum standard VAT rate at 15%

France and Germany behind plans for 'common EU corporation tax'
France and Germany want to see common basic corporation tax rates across the EU, according to reports

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hind-plans-for-common-EU-corporation-tax.html

The EU certainly has much to say on VAT.

Coporation tax - they are looking at.

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, but they are a bit to do with the EU.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hind-plans-for-common-EU-corporation-tax.html

The EU certainly has much to say on VAT.

Coporation tax - they are looking at.

The EU has nothing to do with it. France and Germany aren't the EU and both countries want to propose their plan to the EU members.

Edit: We are in a single market so yes we have common rules but the rates are at the discretion of the countries and when it comes to the standard rate no one is close the limit.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

The EU wasn't setting our tax rates.

EU membership does influence tax rates actually, ,most notably that of VAT.

You're still dancing round the issue that, whatever you think, you've thrown your lot in with people who want migration down and not to change where it's come from.

The only solution is to pull a bait and switch on Leave voters but you accuse 'remainers' of all sorts of things when they come close to doing that so it is a bit rich if you won't flesh out how such an unpalatable idea to your fellow leavers will become acceptable.

I think we can reduce the numbers, as i have explained previously, just not to the 10,000s. Yet at the current rate of increase net immigration will soon pass the 350,000 mark, which is a significant amount irrespective of your PoV. It seems rather silly, therefore, that government intervention should be viewed as extremist. And even if you're an advocate for continued freedom of movement, honesty ought to compel you to argue for many billions in tax rises to alleviate the inherent pressures created by such numbers. Of course the electorate may then decide that those costs are too steep.

What is neither sustainable nor good governance, is a status quo which leaves matters up to market forces and short-termism (from politics/business).

I'm not accusing you of being a bigot for a second, you're clearly a very intelligent guy. It just saddens me that the immigration issue is ripping our country in two. Even my own family ffs.

I didn't think you were accusing me personally, although it is a lazy form of reasoning common to a few others in this thread. 40% of London voted Leave for crying out loud, so it is clearly more complicated than some like to perceive it. I've had enough arguments with family and friends about immigration over the years, and it rarely remains a quiet discussion.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

VAT rates in member states, first 5 pages show the rates:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...tion/vat/how_vat_works/rates/vat_rates_en.pdf

 

[rcoobc]

VAT rates in member states, first 5 pages show the rates:

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...tion/vat/how_vat_works/rates/vat_rates_en.pdf

But that's just a snapshot of EU VAT levels.

What was the UK VAT rate in January 2009?

What was the Luxembourg VAT rate until 2013?

15% The EU Minimum

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yeah, but they are a bit to do with the EU.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...hind-plans-for-common-EU-corporation-tax.html

The EU certainly has much to say on VAT.

Coporation tax - they are looking at.

Yes the minimum standard rate is 15% plus lower rates for certain items - note that few countries are at 15%

However, before VAT, the Uk had Purchase Tax which VAT replaced

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

And prior to the EU Referendum, a new VAT rate for children's clothing was being contemplated.

 

[rcoobc]

Yes the minimum standard rate is 15% plus lower rates for certain items - note that few countries are at 15%

However, before VAT, the Uk had Purchase Tax which VAT replaced

Luxembourg always used to have the lowest VAT rate. - 15%.

If they could have, they would definitely have reduced this VAT rate for much of this time. They are positioned between France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, are a tiny country and live off attracting businesses

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But that's just a snapshot of EU VAT levels.

What was the UK VAT rate in January 2009?

What was the Luxembourg VAT rate until 2013?

15% The EU Minimum

The Uk rate if I remember was 17.5% and Luxembourg 15%

Income from VAT for the UK last year was around £117bn - if the UK leave the EU what plans do the UK have for VAT

 

[JPRouve]

But that's just a snapshot of EU VAT levels.

What was the UK VAT rate in January 2009? 17.5%

What was the Luxembourg VAT rate until 2013? 15%

15% The EU Minimum

And there is a minimum because we are in a single market.

 

[Ubik]

The Uk rate if I remember was 17.5% and Luxembourg 15%

Income from VAT for the UK last year was around £117bn - if the UK leave the EU what plans do the UK have for VAT

UK was historically at 17.5% but Brown temporarily lowered it to 15% after the recession.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

UK was historically at 17.5% but Brown temporarily lowered it to 15% after the recession.

Yes, I think it was 10% when it was first introduced.
Question is do the UK want the single market or not - if they do they have to comply by the rules but they can reduce it to 15% now - problem is they would lose a quarter of the £117bn revenue - unless of course the people will have more money and go on a spending spree

 

[Stanley Road]

You have answered numerous points about Corporation Tax recently - have you Goldfish Memory Syndrome

No work is getting in the way of my thinking

 

[rcoobc]

The Uk rate if I remember was 17.5% and Luxembourg 15%

17.5%

And there is a minimum because we are in a single market.

Blink and you might have missed it. But it was 15%
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/sales-tax-rate
https://www.nealandassociates.co.uk/2011/03/10/historic-uk-vat-rates/

 

[JPRouve]

Blink and you might have missed it. But it was 15%
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/sales-tax-rate
https://www.nealandassociates.co.uk/2011/03/10/historic-uk-vat-rates/

My mistake, but that's currently authorized, so what is the problem?

And once again, you are in a single market. If you don't want to be in a single market then there is no problem and no debate, you leave the EU and don't try strike a deal to be a member of the single market without FOM or respect of common nomenclature and economic rules.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So lets say that Trump decides not to offer the UK a free trade deal. What happens? The UK is struggling with the EU to get the deal it wants. The US won't offer it, India had made it quite clear that any possible deal will be directly linked with freedom of movement (and its a tough cookie that even the EU struggles to crack), Canada had stated that the UK is at the back of her own queue. What happens next?

Trump doesn't like trade deals. He made that pretty obvious. He only needs 1 excuse to pull the plug out of a potential deal with the UK and guess who will be suffering the most?

You are getting excited. The world pretty fecked right now. China are saying they would step in for the USA in TTP, hypothetically the UK could get involved. All bets are off at the moment.

 

[rcoobc]

My mistake, but that's currently authorized, so what is the problem?

And once again, you are in a single market. If you don't want to be in a single market then there is no problem and no debate, you leave the EU and don't try strike a deal to be a member of the single market without FOM or respect of common nomenclature and economic rules.

Hey I'm for the single market! I think their should be a minimum corporation tax rate, a minimum VAT rate. I think the EU should take the first 10% of the EU citizens income tax (although I also agree with the personal allowance, so not sure how that works).

I don't have a problem.

But originally, I was replying to Paul who said that VAT, corporation tax, etc was **nothing** to do with the EU. And I said, well, they are **a bit** to do with the EU