Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Paul the Wolf]

Please don't continue with a false rhetoric of Brexiteers want to turn off immigration and draw up the bridges.
Absolutely false - but controlled immigration is key.

My wife is Canadian, yes the liberal, immigration friendly country, and even she (and her friends that i speak to) are shocked at our immigration 'policy'. Why are we discriminating against a medical worker from, say Malaysia, NZ or other parts of the world - whereas a totally unskilled individual from anywhere in Europe can just walk in and live as if it's their own country. Absurd!

When you live go to live in Canada do you hope you will be treated as a foreigner and not welcome in that country, after all you're deciding to make it your home.
So all the NHS staff are only from former colonies are they - absurd! As you know or should know the immigration is controlled by the Uk - whether they implement it is their problem - not the fault of the EU

 

[Stanley Road]

It really winds me up:
'Oh you support Brexit, you must be racist'
'Why do you want to cut off from the rest of the world' etc etc

I just have no energy to intellectually debate back anymore

Well to make a point of their argument, most immigrants to uk are from outside eu.

But, at least they have to qualify by process and not by passport.

Paul does not get that part. All people wanting to enter the uk or anywhere in the eu should be processed the same way.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Tosspot. Merkels friend

Slimy dishonest twat - the most right-wing of the Republicans - excellent result he's been knocked out - some sanity still exists in this world

 

[JPRouve]

Sarkozy admits defeat

 

[Member 5225]

When you live go to live in Canada do you hope you will be treated as a foreigner and not welcome in that country, after all you're deciding to make it your home.
So all the NHS staff are only from former colonies are they - absurd! As you know or should know the immigration is controlled by the Uk - whether they implement it is their problem - not the fault of the EU

Yes! They will be nice to me, btw it took me NINE MONTHS to get in even though I am highly skilled and married to my Canadian wife.

Not sure what you mean re: NHS and former colonies, haven't made a point anywhere near that, so I am confused.

And also, fundamentally disagree re: bit in bold. How can you say that at all. We, as a nation, have a finite size, have a finite ability for external social integration (and speed), have finite resources and service that can be used by 'new' people - and I just want the best people to be able to do so. Not turn down the lever for non-EU potentially skilled folk, due to too many (potential) unskilled chaps/ladies from other EU nations just walking in as if it's their own country!

 

[Member 5225]

Well to make a point of their argument, most immigrants to uk are from outside eu.

But, at least they have to qualify by process and not by passport.

Paul does not get that part. All people wanting to enter the uk or anywhere in the eu should be processed the same way.

You are far more articulate than I (and ofcourse very correct!)

 

[Ubik]

Oh the left is definitely in disarray, I just thought you were referring to the fact Fillon is quite right wing - moreso than Juppé. Juppé against Le Pen wouldnt be a disaster imo, and the coming week is going to be a big one for Fillon. He was an outsider for a long time, now he's going to be under the microscope and a lot of his very conservative ideas will be put forward. Even though he's won easily today, not sure its that clear cut for next week.

If Fillon is the candidate, don't suppose there's any chance of Macron gaining ground? Or is he just a no-hoper?

Please don't continue with a false rhetoric of Brexiteers want to turn off immigration and draw up the bridges.
Absolutely false - but controlled immigration is key.

My wife is Canadian, yes the liberal, immigration friendly country, and even she (and her friends that i speak to) are shocked at our immigration 'policy'. Why are we discriminating against a medical worker from, say Malaysia, NZ or other parts of the world - whereas a totally unskilled individual from anywhere in Europe can just walk in and live as if it's their own country. Absurd!

This is the most intellectual dishonest of all the immigration arguments. Non-EU migration is higher than EU migration and is going to have to be cut heavily if the well established "target" of tens of thousands net is going to be achieved (it won't, but it remains the target).

 

[Rams]

Please don't continue with a false rhetoric of Brexiteers want to turn off immigration and draw up the bridges.
Absolutely false - but controlled immigration is key.

My wife is Canadian, yes the liberal, immigration friendly country, and even she (and her friends that i speak to) are shocked at our immigration 'policy'. Why are we discriminating against a medical worker from, say Malaysia, NZ or other parts of the world - whereas a totally unskilled individual from anywhere in Europe can just walk in and live as if it's their own country. Absurd!

That's a shit argument. A UK citizen also has to apply for a visa in NZ or Malaysia, but not in the EU countries. The U.K. actually benefits from freedom of movement in the EU.

 

[Member 5225]

That's a shit argument. A UK citizen also has to apply for a visa in NZ or Malaysia, but not in the EU countries. The U.K. actually benefits from freedom of movement in the EU.

Rather not export our shit either (nor import it)!

In all seriousness though, why can't there just be proper processes and rules to avoid being despised by nations of the country that these people are housing. Then maybe you won't have these far-right movements talking about 'lost social identities' etc.

 

[JPRouve]

Rather not export our shit either (nor import it)!

In all seriousness though, why can't there just be proper processes and rules to avoid being despised by nations of the country that these people are housing. Then maybe you won't have these far-right movements talking about 'lost social identities' etc.

The "lost social identity" argument doesn't target EU citizens. For example in France and Holland it's mainly moroccan.

 

[devilish]

Yes! They will be nice to me, btw it took me NINE MONTHS to get in even though I am highly skilled and married to my Canadian wife.

Not sure what you mean re: NHS and former colonies, haven't made a point anywhere near that, so I am confused.

And also, fundamentally disagree re: bit in bold. How can you say that at all. We, as a nation, have a finite size, have a finite ability for external social integration (and speed), have finite resources and service that can be used by 'new' people - and I just want the best people to be able to do so. Not turn down the lever for non-EU potentially skilled folk, due to too many (potential) unskilled chaps/ladies from other EU nations just walking in as if it's their own country!

Its simple really neither canada nor Malaysia offers to the uk the same benefits the uk is currently enjoying in the eu. The uk enjoy unrestricted access to the single market. That means that the uk businesses can buy and sell in any eu country as if it was a local company. Hence why it must also accept all people as if they were British. Its ridiculous to discriminate against those who opened their door to you as family.

The uk can of course cut the bond but once its not part of the family it lose its right to be treated as one. I doubt any country will be willing to give unrestricted access to the uk as the EU does. Surely not the us who competes with uk in terms of financial services and whose president had made it quite clear hes pro protectionism

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes! They will be nice to me, btw it took me NINE MONTHS to get in even though I am highly skilled and married to my Canadian wife.

Not sure what you mean re: NHS and former colonies, haven't made a point anywhere near that, so I am confused.

And also, fundamentally disagree re: bit in bold. How can you say that at all. We, as a nation, have a finite size, have a finite ability for external social integration (and speed), have finite resources and service that can be used by 'new' people - and I just want the best people to be able to do so. Not turn down the lever for non-EU potentially skilled folk, due to too many (potential) unskilled chaps/ladies from other EU nations just walking in as if it's their own country!

If the said EU person is unable to find work and not contribute to the economy where he goes the Uk have the right to send him back.
People will not ask which country do you come from before they start giving abuse - anyone with an accent will get it and as posted by many other posters the Uk needs immigrants to do all types of work.

When I moved to France I just got on a plane. Took me just over an hour.

Figure I saw that 774000 unemployed people in 2015 were not even seeking work in the UK, not saying it's just the UK, everywhere in the world is the same. The immigrants are just a scapegoat.

The argument used about finite resources etc was spouted in the 50s and 60s when the immigrants from the colonies started coming in.

If the Uk go for a Hard Brexit let's see what happens

 

[Stanley Road]

I think it was paul that pointed out that uk takes more immigrants from outside the eu, people that have met all the requirements to enter. Not just the shape or colour of their passports.

 

[Rams]

Rather not export our shit either (nor import it)!

In all seriousness though, why can't there just be proper processes and rules to avoid being despised by nations of the country that these people are housing. Then maybe you won't have these far-right movements talking about 'lost social identities' etc.

I certainly hope people don't despise somebody just because of their nationality..

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I think it was paul that pointed out that uk takes more immigrants from outside the eu, people that have met all the requirements to enter. Not just the shape or colour of their passports.

Does that include those from the colonies that were handed British Passports to help rebuild the country after the war

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

This is the most intellectual dishonest of all the immigration arguments. Non-EU migration is higher than EU migration and is going to have to be cut heavily if the well established "target" of tens of thousands net is going to be achieved (it won't, but it remains the target).

Why do people say this as if it is some noteworthy event? The non-EU element to potential immigration, derives from states responsible for 95% of the world's population. Of course it should be the higher proportion. The net EU figure is now in the region of 190,000 as well, which isn't so very far away from parity.

We should look upon aspirants from China and Colombia, in the same way as Spain and Slovenia (or near as).

 

[Ubik]

Why do people say this as if it is some noteworthy event? The non-EU element to potential immigration, derives from states responsible 95% of the world's population. Of course it should be the higher proportion. The net EU figure is now in the region of 190,000 too, which isn't so very far away from parity.

We should be dealing with aspirants from China and Colombia, in the same way as Spain and Slovenia (or near as).

And you've also always refused to say how we somehow square this newfound benevolence towards people from China and Colombia whilst also cutting net migration to the amounts targeted. The answer, as you fully know, is that numbers from those countries are going to find it harder to come here as well.

And don't say "we want to control immigration, not cut it" either, which is a cop out usually reserved for the likes of Hannan.

 

[Jippy]

And you've also always refused to say how we somehow square this newfound benevolence towards people from China and Colombia whilst also cutting net migration to the amounts targeted. The answer, as you fully know, is that numbers from those countries are going to find it harder to come here as well.

And don't say "we want to control immigration, not cut it" either, which is a cop out usually reserved for the likes of Hannan.

The immigration thing is weird, given most bigots want white neighbours, which you're obviously more likely to get from the EU than the old colonies.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

And you've also always refused to say how we somehow square this newfound benevolence towards people from China and Colombia whilst also cutting net migration to the amounts targeted. The answer, as you fully know, is that numbers from those countries are going to find it harder to come here as well.

And don't say "we want to control immigration, not cut it" either, which is a cop out usually reserved for the likes of Hannan.

I repudiated the 10,000s figure in thread only a few days ago, and have never said that such would be the outcome of Brexit. It is simply a case of being fair and practical, qualities which European FoM deny us. Not unless you are an advocate for no borders whatsoever?

The EU figure is not only disproportionate, but feeds into sectors of the labour market where domestic improvements can bring about faster change (further rises to the NLW for one).

The immigration thing is weird, given most bigots want white neighbours, which you're obviously more likely to get from the EU than the old colonies.

Maybe it isn't as simple as:

Oppose EU freedom of movement = Bigot

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The Uk population contains around 8 million non-white people and about 2.5 million white people of non British or Irish ie European, American, Australian etc - is the next step to balance that out.

More Brits live in France than French people live in the Uk, more Brits live in Spain than Spanish people live in the UK, more Brits live in the USA than Americans live in the UK, same as Australia and so on.

Where are we heading

 

[Rams]

I'm not sure of the point here. We should oppose the freedom of movement within EU member states because it's unfair towards citizens from none EU countries? That's an idiotic argument on so many levels.

 

[sullydnl]

I'm not sure of the point here. We should oppose the freedom of movement within EU member states because it's unfair towards citizens from none EU countries? That's an idiotic argument on so many levels.

Not sure I get it either. Even if you see the loss of freedom of movement as an opportunity to attract people from non EU countries instead, what benefit do they bring to compensate for the loss of your own FOM within the EU and access to the single market?

Unless I'm missing something really obvious....

 

[Jippy]

I repudiated the 10,000s figure in thread only a few days ago, and have never said that such would be the outcome of Brexit. It is simply a case of being fair and practical, qualities which European FoM deny us. Not unless you are an advocate for no borders whatsoever?

The EU figure is not only disproportionate, but feeds into sectors of the labour market where domestic improvements can bring about faster change (further rises to the NLW for one).




Maybe it isn't as simple as:

Oppose EU freedom of movement = Bigot

I'm not accusing you of being a bigot for a second, you're clearly a very intelligent guy. It just saddens me that the immigration issue is ripping our country in two. Even my own family ffs.

 

[JPRouve]

Not sure I get it either. Even if you see the loss of freedom of movement as an opportunity to attract people from non EU countries instead, what benefit do they bring to compensate for the loss of your own FOM within the EU and access to the single market?

Unless I'm missing something really obvious....

The argument is that EU citizens are leeches that entered the country without individual authorizations and they are potentially stealing jobs and/or benefits from UK citizens and potential non EU immigrants.

I think.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Philip Hammond admits there is no clarity on future trading arrangements as he says forecasts show "inflation is back".

You no say!

http://news.sky.com/story/chancello...y-leaves-uk-facing-eye-watering-debt-10664912

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The UK is shite anyway (Paz knows it too hence why he can't wait to get out), I left 13 years ago and haven't once wanted to move back. Norway, Aus, New Zealand, Sweden and France have all been better places to live.

Funny that the UK has cut out easy simple moves to some great great European countries so they can have "Britain back", whatever that even means. The rest of Europe just have one less option and a tonne of opportunity. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot

It'll become more and more evident as to how much of a feck it this was in the coming years as more & more jobs go remote.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Seems like May is planning on making the UK a tax haven for big coorperations, what a fecking mess.

Those who should pay the so often always end up paying the least.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I repudiated the 10,000s figure in thread only a few days ago, and have never said that such would be the outcome of Brexit. It is simply a case of being fair and practical, qualities which European FoM deny us. Not unless you are an advocate for no borders whatsoever?

The EU figure is not only disproportionate, but feeds into sectors of the labour market where domestic improvements can bring about faster change (further rises to the NLW for one).




Maybe it isn't as simple as:

Oppose EU freedom of movement = Bigot

You're still dancing round the issue that, whatever you think, you've thrown your lot in with people who want migration down and not to change where it's come from.

The only solution is to pull a bait and switch on Leave voters but you accuse 'remainers' of all sorts of things when they come close to doing that so it is a bit rich if you won't flesh out how such an unpalatable idea to your fellow leavers will become acceptable.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Not unless you are an advocate for no borders whatsoever?

Borders have caused more war & pain than anything else in human history. I can't help but think a World with less borders would be a better one. I mean, you can't suppress people if you can't lock them in, no good being a dictator in a country where people can just leave.

If the climate does end up fecked these borders will be the cause of WWIII for sure.

But too many people are unwilling to let go of national pride or something like that so I can certainly see all the good that happened with the EU & open borders being flushed down the toilet and reverting to a World with even more borders rather than working towards less

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Aren't Eastern Europeans the most fiscally productive citizens we have? Seem to recall reading a report stating that they were the only net contributors overall whilst non EU migrants and indigenous citizens created a net deficit.

The reasons being that Eastern Europeans tended to be young and working with few children and they generally returned to their home nations after period.

 

[Stanley Road]

Seems like May is planning on making the UK a tax haven for big coorperations, what a fecking mess.

Those who should pay the so often always end up paying the least.

We talking google style tax avoidance or low business tax?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We talking google style tax avoidance or low business tax?

She's not outlined anything concrete as yet which won't surprise anyone, it's all very wishy washy right now but...

May will also announce that the Treasury is to launch a review into the scope for further cuts in corporation tax post-Brexit and for increasing tax credits for research and development.

In a speech which will contrast with some of her earlier attacks on big business, she will say: "We believe in business - the entrepreneurs and the innovators who employ millions of people up and down this country."

And in a bold pledge which will delight bosses, the PM will also suggest that the Tories will cut corporation tax even lower than the 15% promised by Donald Trump in his US presidential election campaign.

So yeah, the UK looks like it's preparing to bend over to big business... nice. So we can look forward to even more of the big businesses running the World, and that ginormous gap between the rich and well anyone else getting ever larger and larger.

 

[Bury Red]

She's not outlined anything concrete as yet which won't surprise anyone, it's all very wishy washy right now but...

So yeah, the UK looks like it's preparing to bend over to big business... nice. So we can look forward to even more of the big businesses running the World, and that ginormous gap between the rich and well anyone else getting ever larger and larger.

Nice that she threw in a few crumbs for research and development there given that most of the research Universities in the UK are suffering already as their positions on EU wide scientific research projects are withdrawn and handed to EU based labs.

Hardly a surprise to see the tories cosying up to big business though, I'm sure it's just what all those Brexiteers who voted out on the grounds that the EU was a servant to big business rather than on immigration were dreaming of when they talked of making Britain Great again.

 

[Xeno]

When big multinationals move here because we're charging 12% corp tax, that'll no doubt be spun as an endorsement for Brexit.

 

[Kentonio]

When big multinationals move here because we're charging 12% corp tax, that'll no doubt be spun as an endorsement for Brexit.

I did wonder what had led Facebook and Google to both announce big expansions to their UK operations this week. Guess someone has been having some quiet conversations.

 

[711]

I did wonder what had led Facebook and Google to both announce big expansions to their UK operations this week. Guess someone has been having some quiet conversations.

Good point.

 

[devilish]

I wonder who'll be footing the bill to allow theser companies not to pay taxes and what would happen if the UK's economy go bust.

Lets give 350m a week to the NH.....Google

 

[Kentonio]

I wonder who'll be footing the bill to allow theser companies not to pay taxes and what would happen if the UK's economy go bust.

Poor people, and if the UK economy went bust poor people would suffer the most. It's almost like there's a pattern emerging..

 

[devilish]

Poor people, and if the UK economy went bust poor people would suffer the most. It's almost like there's a pattern emerging..

The UK economy is 1.7 trillion in debt and it look set to keep digging that hole as old expats start losing their rights on mainland Europe and will be forced to return home. The funny thing is that if the economy go bust its going to be difficult for UK young people to flee the country and find jobs elsewhere

 

[Bury Red]

Poor people, and if the UK economy went bust poor people would suffer the most. It's almost like there's a pattern emerging..

Yes, but the poor people will be able to afford to pay more to accommodate lower taxes for Google and Facebook once they're no longer footing the bill for all these immigrants on welfare

Wonder if loyal British companies will also be offered the same low corporation taxes so that they can compete on a level playing field or if they'll need to threaten to feck off first.