Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Stanley Road]

Don't bother with him, I've yet to read a post with substance from him in this thread. It mostly goes like that:
"There has been an increase in hate crime in Britain since the referendum."
"Well, there have always been unpleasent people, Referendum or not."
"But this increase is actually recorded"
"Tosh, it was far worse in the old days"
or:
"My industrial sector is struggling because of Brexit and my job is at risk."
"Shit happens, I've lost my job 5 times already, just move on."

Add his favorite "All politicians are liars" line and when someone gives a detailed post to counter his 'arguments' he barely answers with a 'we see things differently' answer if not at all.

I'm sorry I don't feel the need to pigeon hole every event in life into a certain category

I'm might be one of the few that hopes the UK becomes a success story a few years down the line, not one of the many that want it to fail so you can say "I told you so"

Where I used to live had the first mosque in Britain so I might have seen a bit of 'Hate Crime' in my time or punch up's as we called them

Did you not experience the same in the 70's and 80's?

 

[berbatrick]

@Nick 0208 Ldn

What do you make of the content of May’s leaked speeches? Are you in favor of giving some industries special subsidies/privileges when they stay (e.g. Nissan)?

Genuine question: how are these benefits ok under, say WTO rules, which prohibit discrimination? The WTO ruled that the Indian govt cannot subside domestic solar panel manufacturers, since it discriminates against US manufacturers (who filed the suit). Now, Nissan isn't a UK company but doesn't it mean that cars made in that plant have an unfair edge against, say, cars made in Germany or even China and then imported into the UK?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Genuine question: how are these benefits ok under, say WTO rules, which prohibit discrimination? The WTO ruled that the Indian govt cannot subside domestic solar panel manufacturers, since it discriminates against US manufacturers (who filed the suit). Now, Nissan isn't a UK company but doesn't it mean that cars made in that plant have an unfair edge against, say, cars made in Germany or even China and then imported into the UK?

I would hazard a guess there's more to the Nissan issue than subsidies and/or privileges. Nissan aren't quite so naïve as to believe some empty promises from May. More I suspect will come clear at a later date.

 

[PedroMendez]

Genuine question: how are these benefits ok under, say WTO rules, which prohibit discrimination? The WTO ruled that the Indian govt cannot subside domestic solar panel manufacturers, since it discriminates against US manufacturers (who filed the suit). Now, Nissan isn't a UK company but doesn't it mean that cars made in that plant have an unfair edge against, say, cars made in Germany or even China and then imported into the UK?

Nobody really knows what the british government promised. These kind of deal are usually not addressed in the context of the WTO/GATT. So the short answer is, that GATT/WTO just covers certain areas/cases.

In the case of India the issue is about “domestic content requirements” (DCR measures). India wants to tell the companies, that they have to buy domestic solar panels and not those that are produced by foreign companies. That is generally seen as illegal (Gatt III:4 + TRIM 2.1), but there are a lot of exemptions from this rule. India wanted to claim an exemption based on III:8(a) or Gatt XX(d)(j).
- III:8 (a) doesn’t apply because the solar cells are not the good that the government is actually buying (which is energy) and energy is not in a “competitive relationship” with the solar cells, that these rules discriminate against. It is a bit of a legal argument, so don’t pay too much attention to it, but India is quite clearly stretching the law.
- XX (d) doesn’t apply because the climate acts/conventions/agreements, that determine the goal, don’t constitute laws/rules according to the definition in this article.
- XX (j) doesn’t apply because there is no supply shortage.

There was also another case between Japan/EU vs Canada where a similar ruling happened. So the outcome of this ruling is hardly a surprise.

I am fairly sure that India will find other – legal – ways to support this industry. The trade rules are a bit dodgy and to some extend arbitrary and by no means comprehensive. I havn’t read the newest commentary yet, so I am not really up to date.

My final remark would be, that the EU-internal laws against distortion of competition are a lot stricter, but even they have more loop-holes than cheese. Sometimes it is hard to understand why certain things are allowed, while others are not without understanding the history of certain laws/agreements.

 

[sullydnl]

I'm sorry I don't feel the need to pigeon hole every event in life into a certain category

I'm might be one of the few that hopes the UK becomes a success story a few years down the line, not one of the many that want it to fail so you can say "I told you so"

Where I used to live had the first mosque in Britain so I might have seen a bit of 'Hate Crime' in my time or punch up's as we called them

Did you not experience the same in the 70's and 80's?

"Hate crime" doesn't equate to "punch up", as if that's a fairly harmless thing in itself. Recent murders and arson attacks have also fallen into that category.

When you have people like the Police and the UN telling you there's been a spike in such crimes, along with the general acceptance that "hate crimes" are underreported anyway, then you probably shouldn't be too quick to dismiss it.

 

[Stanley Road]

"Hate crime" doesn't equate to "punch up", as if that's a fairly harmless thing in itself. Recent murders and arson attacks have also fallen into that category.

When you have people like the Police and the UN telling you there's been a spike in such crimes, along with the general acceptance that "hate crimes" are underreported anyway, then you probably shouldn't be too quick to dismiss it.

Some British people have always been like that and always will, they just need a trigger. Some people don't even need trigger, they are just violent scumbags and the uk has its fair share of them.

 

[Mozza]

Some British people have always been like that and always will, they just need a trigger. Some people don't even need trigger, they are just violent scumbags and the uk has its fair share of them.

That seems like a positive of the EU, has a civilising effect on racists and bigots. As soon as we voted out they felt empowered to make their hate public

 

[Kentonio]

Our economy is already at all time lows and is likely to drop much lower especially if a hard Brexit is taken, city businesses, their high paid employees and a large number of private individuals are very likely to bugger off to the continent and take their tax contributions with them.

It amuses me that the same people on the right who spent years arguing against high rate income tax because 'the wealthy will just move abroad' don't seem to be willing to apply their own logic to things like a heavily damaged economy and currency rates.

 

[Stanley Road]

It amuses me that the same people on the right who spent years arguing against high rate income tax because 'the wealthy will just move abroad' don't seem to be willing to apply their own logic to things like a heavily damaged economy and currency rates.

Just last week I paid 52% tax on a payment of just 1200 gross. One of the reasons the uk is a mess is that no-one wants to pay for it, so the idea that the rich would move abroad is a valid one, it just wouldn't be to western Europe.

 

[Stanley Road]

if a hard Brexit is taken, city businesses, their high paid employees and a large number of private individuals are very likely to bugger off to the continent and take their tax contributions with them

And have to pay European salaries and taxes, not a smart move

Unless they move to Hungary

 

[Kentonio]

Just last week I paid 52% tax on a payment of just 1200 gross. One of the reasons the uk is a mess is that no-one wants to pay for it, so the idea that the rich would move abroad is a valid one, it just wouldn't be to western Europe.

Many people have absolutely no problem whatsoever paying a fairly high tax rate in return for access to great economic opportunity and benefits. Paying a fairly high tax rate (or even a slightly lower one) in return for much reduced economic opportunity and benefits however is likely to be much less appealing.

Personally I probably pay slightly more in France than I would back in England. After Brexit the UK could cut its tax rate in half and I still wouldn't want to move home.

 

[Stanley Road]

Many people have absolutely no problem whatsoever paying a fairly high tax rate in return for access to great economic opportunity and benefits. Paying a fairly high tax rate (or even a slightly lower one) in return for much reduced economic opportunity and benefits however is likely to be much less appealing.

Personally I probably pay slightly more in France than I would back in England. After Brexit the UK could cut its tax rate in half and I still wouldn't want to move home.

You cant run a country on low tax

Any govt bearing gifts will get voted in, that's the issue with the uk, tax shy

Average salary in Holland is 100 euros higher than the uk but the tax rate is double

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Just last week I paid 52% tax on a payment of just 1200 gross. One of the reasons the uk is a mess is that no-one wants to pay for it, so the idea that the rich would move abroad is a valid one, it just wouldn't be to western Europe.

.

Agree that the UK expect to have everything for a small outlay. However, every country has different tax rates in the EU. You're in the wrong country

 

[Stanley Road]

.

Agree that the UK expect to have everything for a small outlay. However, every country has different tax rates in the EU. You're in the wrong country

I'm in a good country, best road network in the world allegedly. paid for with taxes

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'm in a good country, best road network in the world allegedly. paid for with taxes

You're happy there, which is the most important. Yes you have to pay taxes for the quality of services you get.

This is what annoys me about the EU fees versus NHS funding
The EU fees are a pittance compared with the whole UK budget.

It's just the blame game again, the EU is not the reason the NHS is underfunded, it's all a lie.

 

[Stanley Road]

You're happy there, which is the most important. Yes you have to pay taxes for the quality of services you get.

This is what annoys me about the EU fees versus NHS funding
The EU fees are a pittance compared with the whole UK budget.

It's just the blame game again, the EU is not the reason the NHS is underfunded, it's all a lie.

Privatisation is the only way forward, the envy of the world my R's

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Privatisation is the only way forward, the envy of the world my R's

The UK population should be prepared to pay for the service they want but do they trust any government , Tory or Labour , to spend that revenue on the NHS.
I know you have a very good health service in Holland, France is fantastic as well compared to the UK. The NHS is a sick old dinosaur, atrocious.

 

[Kentonio]

Average salary in Holland is 100 euros higher than the uk but the tax rate is double

Where on earth did you get that 'double' figure from?

 

[Stanley Road]

The UK population should be prepared to pay for the service they want but do they trust any government , Tory or Labour , to spend that revenue on the NHS.
I know you have a very good health service in Holland, France is fantastic as well compared to the UK. The NHS is a sick old dinosaur, atrocious.

Dunno about the politics but while we are on the subject, I've witnessed about 5 government collapses since I've been here and the uk think they are the only ones with party issues, its madness.

And they're focused on ukip like the rest of Europe doesn't have worse threats in politics.

Its also utter lunacy to think there is no better alternative outside the eu without anything to compare it to.

 

[Stanley Road]

Where on earth did you get that 'double' figure from?

Here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

 

[Kentonio]

Here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

Erm, that shows the Eurostat family rating as having the UK tax at 5,126.53, and NL at 7,670.88. It also shown NL as having a 2k a year higher average net salary.

 

[Stanley Road]

The countries in purple on the map have net average monthly salaries in excess of €2400, in blue – in the range of €1700–€2399, in olive – in the range of €600–€1699 in yellow – in the range of €300–€599, in red below €300.

Netherlands tax rates
0 € 19882 € 33% 1.85%
€19822 33589 € 41% 10.45%
33589 € 57585 € 42% 42%
57585 € - € 52% 52%


UK
£0 £11,000 0%
£11,000 £43,000 20%
£43,000 £150,000 40%
£150,000 - 45%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe

 

[Kentonio]

The countries in purple on the map have net average monthly salaries in excess of €2400, in blue – in the range of €1700–€2399, in olive – in the range of €600–€1699 in yellow – in the range of €300–€599, in red below €300.

Netherlands tax rates
0 € 19882 € 33% 1.85%
€19822 33589 € 41% 10.45%
33589 € 57585 € 42% 42%
57585 € - € 52% 52%


UK
£0 £11,000 0%
£11,000 £43,000 20%
£43,000 £150,000 40%
£150,000 - 45%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe

The Netherlands tax rates include social security. The UK numbers don't include National Security contributions.

 

[JPRouve]

The Netherlands tax rates include social security. The UK numbers don't include National Security contributions.

Does that mean that the taxes are higher in the UK?

 

[Rams]

You cant run a country on low tax

Any govt bearing gifts will get voted in, that's the issue with the uk, tax shy

Average salary in Holland is 100 euros higher than the uk but the tax rate is double

Not for expats though, they have the '30% rule' for 5 years. In fact, Holland has some of the most competitive tax exemptions in Europe, which make it one of the most competitive countries to set up business in.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Where on earth did you get that 'double' figure from?

I doubt very many people in France pay as much as 20% income tax. Much much lower on average

 

[Stanley Road]

The Netherlands tax rates include social security. The UK numbers don't include National Security contributions.

7.6 %

 

[Stanley Road]

Not for expats though, they have the '30% rule' for 5 years. In fact, Holland has some of the most competitive tax exemptions in Europe, which make it one of the most competitive countries to set up business in.

Its 10 years. all my colleagues are on it but not me as I chose to come here

 

[Stanley Road]

Does that mean that the taxes are higher in the UK?

No, its a tax shy country

 

[Kentonio]

I doubt very many people in France pay as much as 20% income tax. Much much lower on average

Mine was considerably less this year, I was very happily surprised.

 

[Stanley Road]

The Netherlands tax rates include social security. The UK numbers don't include National Security contributions.

So how much tax gross would you pay in 1k pounds?

 

[JPRouve]

No, its a tax shy country

So you don't pay any social security taxes?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Does that mean that the taxes are higher in the UK?

No you pay zero tax on the first £11000 per year

 

[Stanley Road]

So you don't pay any social security taxes?

do you mean national insurance?

And does a uk salary have 40% + deductions on it??

What are you trying to argue here?

 

[JPRouve]

do you mean national insurance?

And does a uk salary have 40% + deductions on it??

What are you trying to argue here?

I'm not arguing just asking a question.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Mine was considerably less this year, I was very happily surprised.

So was mine, but it's calculated differently, in the UK you're treated as an individual , in France it's by family.
If a family of man, wife and 2 kids, and the total family income was €60000 - the tax would be about €1500 a year. about 2.5%

 

[JPRouve]

No you pay zero tax on the first £11000 per year

So there is no social deductions on the gross wage for the first £11000?

 

[Kentonio]

So was mine, but it's calculated differently, in the UK you're treated as an individual , in France it's by family.
If a family of man, wife and 2 kids, and the total family income was €60000 - the tax would be about €1500 a year. about 2.5%

I'm single and it was still much lower than I expected.

 

[Dans]

So was mine, but it's calculated differently, in the UK you're treated as an individual , in France it's by family.
If a family of man, wife and 2 kids, and the total family income was €60000 - the tax would be about €1500 a year. about 2.5%

WTF? Really? I'd move there if that was the case. I can't believe that.

 

[Kentonio]

So there is no social deductions on the gross wage for the first £11000?

It's a separate tax called National Insurance which (IIRC) you do still pay under £11,000.