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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Bury Red said:
That a majority of my fellow Britains buy into these lies time and time again and let the politicians and the press get away with peddling them sickens me. How can we spend so much on educating our nation and still have so many idiots?
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This. Oh a million times this..
 
Kentonio said:
If you lost 5 jobs in Holland, then that would suggest losing your job didn't also mean you had to relocate to a completely different country. Did you even lose your home when you lost these jobs?
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I also work with serbians, Russians and izraeli's to name but a few. Their passports are not tied to the job, if my company goes tits up then they will look for more work somewhere else and will find it.

You may not like the fact that the uk people have made a decision that may have consequences for yourself but I despise goverments in Europe that could not organise a piss up in a brewery and have, through policies, stifled growth and made it hard for a lot of businesses to prosper.

I also despised the introduction of the euro as I saw a 67% in some of the things I like to spend money, something that was initially denied by german finance ministers but they eventually had to admit it.

So yeah, I hate whole shebang
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Giving equal weight to voters in England,Scotland,Northern Ireland and Wales in the referendum is really the only reasonable way to show respect to all parts of the UK.

If you say, and Alex Salmond did say, that Scotland should have a veto right on leaving then you are effectively saying the wishes of Scottish voters are ten times as important as the wishes of English voters. Not very democratic if you ask me.


1 England 53,012,456
2 Scotland 5,295,000
3 Wales 3,063,456
4 Northern Ireland 1,810,863

United Kingdom 63,181,775
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Not really. Some countries are less populated then others. Its ridiculous that they have to just bow their head and obey because of that. There again democracy works weird in the UK. The third most popular party ended up with just 1 seat in parliament
 
Mozza said:
Canada is very small compared to the EU, its only a little smaller than the UK. They might be willing to sacrifice a lot to get access to the big market thats the EU, they'll probably be less inclined to do it for the UK
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In theory you have a point but in reality the EU will sacrifice terms the UK would have liked in order to buy off some other EU faction. The whole idea that we get great deals because we negotiate jointly is suspect because we don't jointly want the same types of deal and we can't test the reality because we are not allowed to negotiate separately to find out.

When we leave the EU we will find out until then it is all speculation and no one really knows for sure if they are honest about it.
 
Bury Red said:
They're equally happy to allow those big companies to dodge paying their tax dues whilst demonising those at the bottom rung of the ladder for scrounging and as a nation a majority/vocal minority somehow sides with this bullshit.
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This is the very reason there were protests in Germany this week against the Canadian deal, so this is not unique to uk
 
Stanley Road said:
I also work with serbians, Russians and izraeli's to name but a few. Their passports are not tied to the job, if my company goes tits up then they will look for more work somewhere else and will find it.

You may not like the fact that the uk people have made a decision that may have consequences for yourself but I despise goverments in Europe that could not organise a piss up in a brewery and have, through policies, stifled growth and made it hard for a lot of businesses to prosper.

I also despised the introduction of the euro as I saw a 67% in some of the things I like to spend money, something that was initially denied by german finance ministers but they eventually had to admit it.

So yeah, I hate whole shebang
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Cool, so live in (what's going to be left of) Britain, build a big wall around it, and let the rest of us live in a forward thinking Europe while you guys do whatever you want. Problem solved.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
In theory you have a point but in reality the EU will sacrifice terms the UK would have liked in order to buy off some other EU faction. The whole idea that we get great deals because we negotiate jointly is suspect because we don't jointly want the same types of deal and we can't test the reality because we are not allowed to negotiate separately to find out.

When we leave the EU we will find out until then it is all speculation and no one really knows for sure if they are honest about it.
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It is speculation, but it is educated speculation when you consider that the current Tory government was the only part of the EU that refused to block Chinese steel dumping and even provided the Chinese manufacturers with expert guidance on alloying steel with Boron and Copper so that it attracts lower tarifs and makes their dumping easier despite the potential structural risks posed when trying to work with steel with even small fractions of Boron. Our own government sold the last remnants of the (Indian owned) British steel industry down the river with no thought to the 50,000 potential job losses and additional damage to allied industries, hell they even managed to convince numpties like my sister who works in a steel processing company that it was the evil EU what dunnit so that she voted out as did a majority in Port Talbot.

Do I trust this lot to sign deals in our best interest, do I feck. It's their back handers, their future board memberships and their offshore tax avoidance schemes that matter to them.
 
Stanley Road said:
You want to stay in Britain so all of your possible suffering will be your own choice
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I don't know what this means. I have no interest in living in Britain after what happened in June. If you want the kind of Britain we're turning into now, you're welcome to it.
 
Kentonio said:
If you lost 5 jobs in Holland, then that would suggest losing your job didn't also mean you had to relocate to a completely different country. Did you even lose your home when you lost these jobs?

If I lose a job because of the company failing or something then that's something I can deal with. If I lose a job I love because some fecking idiots in my birth country decide they want to crash their economy and feck me over in the process for no particular reason, then that's a very different story. Especially if I'm not then allowed to even find a new job in the same country.

Britain in 5-10 years time could easily be minus Scotland and possibly Northern Ireland, with a collapsed economy, radically lower worker pay and rights, a semi-privatized and dysfunctional NHS and with a country divided completely in two, hating each other for their vote this past June. I hope it was worth it, because me and a lot of other people will never, ever forget or forgive this if it all goes south.
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You can't really complain about the referendum as an mechanism for leaving the EU when it was the mechanism for joining. You wouldn't be where you are if the referendum's were not allowed to over ride the rights of those who voted to stay out of the EEC.

Joining wasn't cost free to many sectors of the UK economy at the time, so it is swings and roundabouts.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
You can't really complain about the referendum as an mechanism for leaving the EU when it was the mechanism for joining. You wouldn't be where you are if the referendum's were not allowed to over ride the rights of those who voted to stay out of the EEC.

Joining wasn't cost free to many sectors of the UK economy at the time, so it is swings and roundabouts.
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Perhaps if there was a clear and coherent economic benefit to this madness then I wouldn't be so angry. If it was 'well this 50% of people will be better off' then I could at least understand it and would probably accept it as democracy at work. But there isn't an economic benefit to this, this is wildly destructive with a vague "well we'll trade more with with some unspecified countries!" stuck on top like an articial cherry sitting on top of a turd.
 
devilish said:
Not really. Some countries are less populated then others. Its ridiculous that they have to just bow their head and obey because of that. There again democracy works weird in the UK. The third most popular party ended up with just 1 seat in parliament
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And yet if the votes in Scotland and England had the UK staying in the EU over say the vote in Wales (who voted to leave) about that you would have said nothing.

We joined the EEC on the authority of a referendum with one person one vote for the whole UK. You can't really argue that we shouldn't be able to leave on the same basis, you have to hold on to some principles even if the vote goes against you.
 
devilish said:
Not really. Some countries are less populated then others. Its ridiculous that they have to just bow their head and obey because of that. There again democracy works weird in the UK. The third most popular party ended up with just 1 seat in parliament
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What if that country only has a population of 70k, the really small countries don't matter do they, they just need to suck it up for the great good, right?
 
Kentonio said:
Perhaps if there was a clear and coherent economic benefit to this madness then I wouldn't be so angry. If it was 'well this 50% of people will be better off' then I could at least understand it and would probably accept it as democracy at work. But there isn't an economic benefit to this, this is wildly destructive with a vague "well we'll trade more with with some unspecified countries!" stuck on top like an articial cherry sitting on top of a turd.
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Thats your view and I voted remain so on balance I shared your opinion. I don't disrespect those who voted the other way though they might well have the right of it in the end.

You are probably worrying unduly as I suspect the rights of those who have already moved will be respected and if those rights are not respected it will be because the EU decide to make an issue of it not the UK which has stated that as long as the rights of UK citizens living in the EU are respected so will the rights of EU citizens already living in the UK.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
You are probably worrying unduly as I suspect the rights of those who have already moved will be respected and if those rights are not respected it will be because the EU decide to make an issue of it not the UK which has stated that as long as the rights of UK citizens living in the EU are respected so will the rights of EU citizens already living in the UK.
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You mean the UK who just a day or two ago refused to guarantee that EU nationals in the UK would have their rights respected, describing is as an 'aspiration' of the government? Seems like a lot of trust to put in a bunch who are managing to arse up everything else they touch.
 
What defines an Englishman or a Brit? Just a place where you were born and the culture you were brought up in.

I was born in England but have no almost no affinity to England at all. Was born in the wrong country but managed to escape.

Seems I am possibly the oldest fart in the thread
 
Paul the Wolf said:
What defines an Englishman or a Brit? Just a place where you were born and the culture you were brought up in.

I was born in England but have no almost no affinity to England at all. Was born in the wrong country but managed to escape.

Seems I am possibly the oldest fart in the thread
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A Frenchman born in an Englishman's body. A terrible state of affairs.
 
Kentonio said:
have openly admitted in the past to wanting to privatize the NHS
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It's the only way to turn it around, it's so badly run it's an embarrassment compared to healthcare in western Europe.

Did you ever see that program called "saving the nhs" or something similar? This businessman queried why the 2 theatres persormed no operations on a Friday yet there was still a waiting list. He then had to convince 4 managers of something, employed just for employments sake, that there should be surgery on a Friday, the resistance he got from 1 or 2 managers was mind blowing.

That's the EU that is, in a nutshell. He manged to get operations on a Friday and guess what, the Queue went down and the surgeons were much happier. He was running it like one would run a business and it worked. at the moment its run like a charity that haemorrhage's cash all over the place.

I believe when the uk talk of privatisation in the nhs they really mean outsourcing, and that's completely different
 
Stanley Road said:
It's the only way to turn it around, it's so badly run it's an embarrassment compared to healthcare in western Europe.

Did you ever see that program called "saving the nhs" or something similar? This businessman queried why the 2 theatres persormed no operations on a Friday yet there was still a waiting list. He then had to convince 4 managers of something, employed just for employments sake, that there should be surgery on a Friday, the resistance he got from 1 or 2 managers was mind blowing.

That's the EU that is, in a nutshell. He manged to get operations on a Friday and guess what, the Queue went down and the surgeons were much happier. He was running it like one would run a business and it worked. at the moment its run like a charity that haemorrhage's cash all over the place.

I believe when the uk talk of privatisation in the nhs they really mean outsourcing, and that's completely different
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There is a massive, and I mean massive difference between managing the system better and privatizing it. If you want to make it run better, I'm all on board with it, but if you want to privatize it you're my ideological enemy and I'll treat you like anyone else who supports leading us to a position where thousands of people a year will die unnecessary deaths. Because that's what privatizing healthcare does. In the US around 30,000 human beings die each year unnecessarily because they can't afford doctors visits or treatment, and I'm damned if I'll let that be my family members or friends.
 
Kentonio said:
You mean the UK who just a day or two ago refused to guarantee that EU nationals in the UK would have their rights respected, describing is as an 'aspiration' of the government? Seems like a lot of trust to put in a bunch who are managing to arse up everything else they touch.
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If the EU demand UK repatriation for UK citizens then the UK govt will demand reciprocity. It is the fact that they won't state otherwise which is your biggest support in this regard. If your position becomes untenable it will be because of EU action not the UK govt's stance. We can't clear up the point until article 50 is triggered. That is the EU's position otherwise we could clear this non trade matter up pretty quickly.
 
Stanley Road said:
It's the only way to turn it around, it's so badly run it's an embarrassment compared to healthcare in western Europe.

Did you ever see that program called "saving the nhs" or something similar? This businessman queried why the 2 theatres persormed no operations on a Friday yet there was still a waiting list. He then had to convince 4 managers of something, employed just for employments sake, that there should be surgery on a Friday, the resistance he got from 1 or 2 managers was mind blowing.

That's the EU that is, in a nutshell. He manged to get operations on a Friday and guess what, the Queue went down and the surgeons were much happier. He was running it like one would run a business and it worked. at the moment its run like a charity that haemorrhage's cash all over the place.

I believe when the uk talk of privatisation in the nhs they really mean outsourcing, and that's completely different
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If you are thinking about the Gerry Robinson program I think it was the surgeons who resisted that particular change, I might be wrong though as it was a long time ago.
 
Kentonio said:
There is a massive, and I mean massive difference between managing the system better and privatizing it. If you want to make it run better, I'm all on board with it, but if you want to privatize it you're my ideological enemy and I'll treat you like anyone else who supports leading us to a position where thousands of people a year will die unnecessary deaths. Because that's what privatizing healthcare does. In the US around 30,000 human beings die each year unnecessarily because they can't afford doctors visits or treatment, and I'm damned if I'll let that be my family members or friends.
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We have a 50/50 system here and I find the service and the hospitals amazing, never waited for anything and I have received treatment in 1 year that far outweighed my private contribution. It's saddens me to think of the shithole my mum died in in bath, terrible.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
If you are thinking about the Gerry Robinson program I think it was the surgeons who resisted that particular change, I might be wrong though as it was a long time ago.
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Surgeons were delighted they didn't have to do paperwork / golf on a Friday. I will never forget those mangers

It was like they were resisting it cos it gave them power and it wasn't their idea.
 
Stanley Road said:
We have a 50/50 system here and I find the service and the hospitals amazing, never waited for anything and I have received treatment in 1 year that far outweighed my private contribution. It's saddens me to think of the shithole my mum died in in bath, terrible.
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This is what I don't get though, why does an experience within the system of it failing means we should get rid of the entire system? If people want to run the NHS like a business, then why not just tie management contracts and bonuses to performance, and sack people when they underperform? Why do you need a profit margin involved to treat it like a business, when you can just attach different KPI's? As soon as a for profit element is included in healthcare then you're syphoning off funds and raising costs above where they need to be.
 
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/...-in-the-uk-are-among-the-strongest-in-europe/


Xenophobia Britannica? Anti-immigrant attitudes in the UK are among the strongest in Europe

Instead of just imposing immigration controls if the government wishes to do so, we now hear a flurry of xenophobic policy proposals which are ironically unlikely to have any noticeable effect on immigration flows. There were suggestions that companies would be ‘named and shamed’ for hiring foreigners. Other ideas included preventing the government from seeking advice from non-UK citizens about Brexit-related matters, presumably for ‘security’ reasons. Immigrants should not, we are told, “take jobs British people could do”.

These proposals are economically illiterate as they implicitly accept the lump of labour fallacy that there is a fixed quantity of jobs in the economy. They are also clearly nationalist insofar as they posit work should be shared first and foremost among ‘deserving’ natives, that we must identify and count foreigners, and that both companies and the government should not rely on foreigners to advise or work for them, at least in some instances. The question remains, however, whether these policy proposals and this obsession with immigration represent the preferences of the wider population? Or put differently, is it the case that the UK is noticeably more sceptical of immigration than other European countries?

(...)

The survey data reveals that the UK has among the highest anti-immigrant survey responses, especially within Western Europe. These results suggest that recent policy proposals tap into widespread anti-immigration sentiment, which may, of course, have been created by the media and political discourse that has been framing the issue so negatively for a long time now.

At the same time, the problem seems to be not just about whether immigration should or should not be restricted, and if so how, but more importantly about how to promote a more facts-based discussion of immigration. The fact of the matter is that a large part of the electorate has now wholeheartedly embraced anti-immigration attitudes.
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C.M.P said:
What if that country only has a population of 70k, the really small countries don't matter do they, they just need to suck it up for the great good, right?
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As said theres a difference between ignoring scotland and northern ireland in a country the size of 1/3 of texas and letting wallonia deciding a trade deal on behalf of an entire continent. In uk terms it would be not leaving the eu because the people who live in a certain street at bath said so
 
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Don't Kill Bill said:
And yet if the votes in Scotland and England had the UK staying in the EU over say the vote in Wales (who voted to leave) about that you would have said nothing.

We joined the EEC on the authority of a referendum with one person one vote for the whole UK. You can't really argue that we shouldn't be able to leave on the same basis, you have to hold on to some principles even if the vote goes against you.
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I don't know anything how you joined the EEC. If it was for me and considering your historical 'contribution' and 'interests' regarding Europe's stability I would rather have a country like Turkey than the UK within the EU (and no I don't want Turkey in the EU). However considering how small the UK is, ignoring two countries like Scotland and Ireland is plain wrong. In EU terms it would be like completely ignoring half Europe. Rather then a union the UK reminds me more of an empire.
 
Kentonio said:
This is what I don't get though, why does an experience within the system of it failing means we should get rid of the entire system? If people want to run the NHS like a business, then why not just tie management contracts and bonuses to performance, and sack people when they underperform? Why do you need a profit margin involved to treat it like a business, when you can just attach different KPI's? As soon as a for profit element is included in healthcare then you're syphoning off funds and raising costs above where they need to be.
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The biggest problem in the uk from my point of view is that people will vote for anyone that will promise lower taxes. then there is a lot of bleeting when services go to shit or you have to start paying for prescriptions.

Have it all for free but pay proper taxes. 42% i pay and i am by no means highly paid. I pay 52% on bonuses and redundancy payments. This is how you pay for shit. Still, money alone wont solve the nhs or the uk's issues without serious restructure of the way its run.
 
Stanley Road said:
The biggest problem in the uk from my point of view is that people will vote for anyone that will promise lower taxes. then there is a lot of bleeting when services go to shit or you have to start paying for prescriptions.

Have it all for free but pay proper taxes. 42% i pay and i am by no means highly paid. I pay 52% on bonuses and redundancy payments. This is how you pay for shit. Still, money alone wont solve the nhs or the uk's issues without serious restructure of the way its run.
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Like supposedly saving £350m a week they were supposedly paying the EU and supposedly using this money for the NHS
 
devilish said:
As said theres a difference between ignoring scotland and northern ireland in a country the size of 1/3 of texas and letting wallonia deciding a trade deal on behalf of an entire continent. In uk terms it would be not leaving the eu because the people who live in a certain street at bath said so
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I would have been very happy had that been the case, I say let that one street in bath make all our decisions!
 
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