Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Stanley Road said:
You think?

I work with a scot that had the foresight to vote to leave the UK cos of the very chance that UK might vote to leave the EU. people need to think before they vote. Now they got what they voted for and have to suck it up, I have zero sympathy for them.
Click to expand...

Problem with your co-workers position was this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...o-an-independent-Scotlands-EU-membership.html
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-independent-scotland-stay-eu/17767

This is, of course, still an issue with indyref2, but it was a hugely important issue at the time too.
 
Will Absolute said:
Certainly nobody has any reason to dislike the Germans.

It's not a question of hatred, rather one of identity. A common European identity doesn't exist in anything but name. Without it, no political union can survive. Except, of course, one based on tyranny (there have been plenty of those).

To survive, the EU will have to suppress democracy.
Click to expand...

Ok, so you're demonstrating that you have a very old fashioned view of the world. Huge numbers of younger people (and plenty of older ones) don't feel much sense of national identity, beyond some vague little soundbites. A 20 year old student in Britain has a lot more in common with a counterpart in France or Germany or Sweden than they do with a 50 years old fellow Brit. And thanks to the Internet and free movement increasingly vast numbers are learning just that.

Our shared European identity is one of liberalism, tolerance, peace and freedom of movement, employment and trade. That's a much stronger and more personal identity than anything a national government has ever offered me. Given that Britain apparently doesn't share that, right now I have close to zero affinity to British culture, and I keep hearing the same from many of my friends.
 
Kentonio said:
Ok, so you're demonstrating that you have a very old fashioned view of the world. Huge numbers of younger people (and plenty of older ones) don't feel much sense of national identity, beyond some vague little soundbites. A 20 year old student in Britain has a lot more in common with a counterpart in France or Germany or Sweden than they do with a 50 years old fellow Brit. And thanks to the Internet and free movement increasingly vast numbers are learning just that.

Our shared European identity is one of liberalism, tolerance, peace and freedom of movement, employment and trade. That's a much stronger and more personal identity than anything a national government has ever offered me. Given that Britain apparently doesn't share that, right now I have close to zero affinity to British culture, and I keep hearing the same from many of my friends.
Click to expand...

This and the EU is actually bigger on preservation and promotion of cultural diversity than most European countries.
 
devilish said:
I dont know. However a county should not decide on behalf an entire continent.
Click to expand...

They don't decide on anyone behalf, they decide for themselves and the EU decided that most decisions need to satisfy everyone.
 
JPRouve said:
They don't decide on anyone behalf, they decide for themselves and the EU decided that most decisions need to satisfy everyone.
Click to expand...

In practice thats pretty inefficient because you rarely get the consensus of 28+ country. Brexiteers are right on that one. The eu can barely seal a deal with such method in place

Maybe we can ask wallonia to leave the eu and make a success out of it too. Alternatively we set rules in place were deals can go thtough with just 2/3 of countries agreeing to it
 
Kentonio said:
Ok, so you're demonstrating that you have a very old fashioned view of the world. Huge numbers of younger people (and plenty of older ones) don't feel much sense of national identity, beyond some vague little soundbites. A 20 year old student in Britain has a lot more in common with a counterpart in France or Germany or Sweden than they do with a 50 years old fellow Brit. And thanks to the Internet and free movement increasingly vast numbers are learning just that.

Our shared European identity is one of liberalism, tolerance, peace and freedom of movement, employment and trade. That's a much stronger and more personal identity than anything a national government has ever offered me. Given that Britain apparently doesn't share that, right now I have close to zero affinity to British culture, and I keep hearing the same from many of my friends.
Click to expand...
What an absurd rash sweeping statement you make, as if it's fact!
I fundamentally disagree!
 
devilish said:
In practice thats pretty inefficient because you rarely get the consensus of 28+ country. Brexiteers are right on that one. The eu can barely seal a deal with such method in place

Maybe we can ask wallonia to leave the eu and make a success out of it too.
Click to expand...

I thought Brexiters complained that there was a democratic deficit at the heart of the EU, that Germany decided everything, and we didn't get a say?

This seems the exact opposite of what they were moaning about.
 
devilish said:
In practice thats pretty inefficient because you rarely get the consensus of 28+ country. Brexiteers are right on that one. The eu can barely seal a deal with such method in place

Maybe we can ask wallonia to leave the eu and make a success out of it too.
Click to expand...

The brexiteers aren't right on that one, remember they want total sovereignty.

Personally I would prefer the qualified majority over unanimity but the qualified majority means that some countries will have to accept decisions that they don't want, it means that they will have to ratify treaties without their will.
 
sun_tzu said:
Riiiiiiight so in or out of the single market?... or a trade deal on goods would that include services... if you restrict free movement of people then what about movement of capital?
What about settled eu workers over here... or indeed what (if anything) will we do to assist brits settled in the eu
What about the Irish boarder... or the Scottish one if they push for independence
I mean if it's not complicated as you say I assume you can answer the points above?
Click to expand...
Yo - we'd have something called a negotiation/trade (or otherwise)-deal ;)
I know, it's a hard concept for the EU chaps to digest nowadays (see top headlines etc!)
 
Member 5225 said:
What an absurd rash sweeping statement you make, as if it's fact!
I fundamentally disagree!
Click to expand...
I'd say it's a pretty fair assessment although I'd balk at the suggestion that 50 year olds are the ones that are out of touch, I'm only 3 years off that mark myself but having earned a French Civil Engineering degree through Erasmus 25+ years ago I've always felt far more European than British and am quite often embarrassed by the way the English in particular act, especially when abroad.
 
JPRouve said:
The brexiteers aren't right on that one, remember they want total sovereignty.

Personally I would prefer the qualified majority over unanimity but the qualified majority means that some countries will have to accept decisions that they don't want, it means that they will have to ratify treaties without their will.
Click to expand...

I prefer that to. Dont take me we wrong consensus is great in theory. However in reality its total unpractical.

Those who cant accept the decision of 66% of the eu should consider leaving the group. Im sure that the uk can lend them their experts to assist in the process
 
Kentonio said:
Ok, so you're demonstrating that you have a very old fashioned view of the world. Huge numbers of younger people (and plenty of older ones) don't feel much sense of national identity, beyond some vague little soundbites. A 20 year old student in Britain has a lot more in common with a counterpart in France or Germany or Sweden than they do with a 50 years old fellow Brit. And thanks to the Internet and free movement increasingly vast numbers are learning just that.

Our shared European identity is one of liberalism, tolerance, peace and freedom of movement, employment and trade. That's a much stronger and more personal identity than anything a national government has ever offered me. Given that Britain apparently doesn't share that, right now I have close to zero affinity to British culture, and I keep hearing the same from many of my friends.
Click to expand...

Great post. I'm a "Brit", but I've also lived in France, Germany, Norway & for the last 8 years Sweden, all because of the European project. I'm absolutely more European than British, and most people I interact with from home & over here, feel exactly the same way.

National identity is doomed in the age we live in today, and whilst that should be a good thing, recent events (Brexit, Trump, moves to far right) show that so many people are terrified of the inevitable.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I thought Brexiters complained that there was a democratic deficit at the heart of the EU, that Germany decided everything, and we didn't get a say?

This seems the exact opposite of what they were moaning about.
Click to expand...

Aye, if anything, this Canada deal really highlights how wrong the pro Brexit brigade were in saying "Brussels decides everything over us and makes our laws"... Errr, no it doesn't.
 
devilish said:
I prefer that to. Dont take me we wrong consensus is great in theory. However in reality its total unpractical.

Those who cant accept the decision of 66% of the eu should consider leaving the group. Im sure that the uk can lend them their experts to assist in the process
Click to expand...

For the moment consensus is good because some people aren't totally sold yet, when people decide to vote seriously at the EU elections, when they truely own the project then we can vote at the qualified majority.
I mean currently you have people who are pretending that the EU is a dictatorship where the UK can't make its voice heard, so imagine the shitstorm if it was actually the case.

Also I believe that the qualified majority needs to represent at the same time: 70% of expressed suffrages, 70% of funding, 70% of population. Obviously the figures can be adjusted.
 
The British are not getting access to the single market without accepting the 4 core principles including free movement. The EU is not negotiating about this and this is something the British government don´t seem to get ( at least in public ) and is wasting time and effort on the impossible. I think the EU are tired of having to say this is not negotiable in public and generally speaking annoying those you want to trade with is not the best way to go forward. But i think it is just an facade from May to make it look like they did all they could to get the "perfect deal" but in the end will accept an Free trade agreement including all 4 principles to avoid an catastrophe in economical terms.
 
Having said that the future is shared sovreignity. Asean, African Union, USAN...etc[/QUOTE]

That is the old utopian view of the way things will eventually go perhaps twenty years out of date. In practice fewer and fewer people vote for it and in fact a substantial and growing minority are absolutely opposed to it.

I don't know who is correct or which world view will prevail but governing is the point of governments. Creating an alternative form of govt which can't govern might not be such a wise move.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I don't know who is correct or which world view will prevail but governing is the point of governments. Creating an alternative form of govt which can't govern might not be such a wise move.
Click to expand...

You are right, the EU council should be free to govern, the EU Parliament should be the one expressing EU citizens voices instead of the 28 EU parliaments but it would mean that we are a federation.

I think I will welcome it but I'm probably in the minority.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Problem with your co-workers position was this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...o-an-independent-Scotlands-EU-membership.html
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-independent-scotland-stay-eu/17767

This is, of course, still an issue with indyref2, but it was a hugely important issue at the time too.
Click to expand...

Spain veto everything, Rajoy has an opinion on everything, sooner people like him are gone the better. He's protecting his own countries interest before the eu, ignoring the people from certain provinces. Again, an eu pm( caretaker )not listening to the people.

At least Scotland would be in a position to apply if they were indipendant.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Errr yes it does,

The UK govt wants this deal (right or wrong) the EU is stopping us from signing it.
Click to expand...
Oh come off it, all we heard pre-Brexit was how the evil EU was trying to sneak CETA and TTIP in by the back door and that was why we needed to take back sovereignty. Now it's the evil EU stopping us signing the same deals.

Cake and eat it is not enoguh for you lot is it.
 
Rather the UK decide what is best for the UK and not held to random by some obscure towns in Europe that most people haven't even heard of, let alone care about. Simple really.
 
Bury Red said:
I'd say it's a pretty fair assessment although I'd balk at the suggestion that 50 year olds are the ones that are out of touch, I'm only 3 years off that mark myself but having earned a French Civil Engineering degree through Erasmus 25+ years ago I've always felt far more European than British and am quite often embarrassed by the way the English in particular act, especially when abroad.
Click to expand...

You're quite right, it was a sweeping generalization. I'm 40 myself, so I should know better. ;)
 
Bury Red said:
I'd say it's a pretty fair assessment although I'd balk at the suggestion that 50 year olds are the ones that are out of touch, I'm only 3 years off that mark myself but having earned a French Civil Engineering degree through Erasmus 25+ years ago I've always felt far more European than British and am quite often embarrassed by the way the English in particular act, especially when abroad.
Click to expand...
hmm each to their own I suppose but, as a 31 year old Londoner born in Westminster, with a British passport, I feel much more affliliation to the UK and fellow Brits than to Europeans....
 
Member 5225 said:
Rather the UK decide what is best for the UK and not held to random by some obscure towns in Europe that most people haven't even heard of, let alone care about. Simple really.
Click to expand...

Why should people in London have their interests decided by a vote from the people of Cumbria? Or vice versa? That logic only works if together they share more than seperates them, which Brexit just showed us isn't true any more.
 
Stanley Road said:
But you seem to dribble at the thought of anyone vetoing a uk deal with the eu.

Which way is it? You seem very pro eu so you have to live with the kak bits you don't like, that's how life is.
Click to expand...

The uk is not a continent and Scotland and Northern ireland is not wallonia. Also Just because i am pro eu that doesnt mean i dont think rhe eu needs some reforms
 
Kentonio said:
Why should people in London have their interests decided by a vote from the people of Cumbria? Or vice versa? That logic only works if together they share more than seperates them, which Brexit just showed us isn't true any more.
Click to expand...
Fair and it's a bigger discussion about sovereignity itself. But the key thing, is we are a nation - and this is how we've chosen to run our democracy for generations. The EU is a brand new trade-union, which has turned into this Frankenstein of a 'social-union' which, I believe people just do not want (Exhibit A being Brexit vote).
 
sun_tzu said:
So no individual country should have a veto on any brexit deal?
Click to expand...

I cant answer to that because honestly I don't know. What I do know is that its ridiculous that a small county like Wallonia can veto a trade deal which is wanted by an entire continent.

Maybe the veto should remain for a restricted number of decisions with the rest being decided on an absolute majority (2/3? 3/4?)
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
That is the old utopian view of the way things will eventually go perhaps twenty years out of date. In practice fewer and fewer people vote for it and in fact a substantial and growing minority are absolutely opposed to it.

I don't know who is correct or which world view will prevail but governing is the point of governments. Creating an alternative form of govt which can't govern might not be such a wise move.
Click to expand...

Not really. The world is moving towards more integration not less. Which makes sense. Nationalism was the reason why we had so many wars in Europe with respect to other bigger areas such as the United States of America
 
Member 5225 said:
hmm each to their own I suppose but, as a 31 year old Londoner born in Westminster, with a British passport, I feel much more affliliation to the UK and fellow Brits than to Europeans....
Click to expand...

I bet you drink your tea with your little finger up.:p
 
JPRouve said:
For the moment consensus is good because some people aren't totally sold yet, when people decide to vote seriously at the EU elections, when they truely own the project then we can vote at the qualified majority.
I mean currently you have people who are pretending that the EU is a dictatorship where the UK can't make its voice heard, so imagine the shitstorm if it was actually the case.

Also I believe that the qualified majority needs to represent at the same time: 70% of expressed suffrages, 70% of funding, 70% of population. Obviously the figures can be adjusted.
Click to expand...

Till then the EU will move at glacier pace on everything. FFS we cant even kick the UK out and they voted for Brexit
 
Stanley Road said:
Well when they reform and start listening to real people, we'll see if its still crap or not
Click to expand...

Still it listen to more people then the UK who keep pushing for Brexit despite Scotland, North Ireland and Gibraltar had voted against
 
Member 5225 said:
hmm each to their own I suppose but, as a 31 year old Londoner born in Westminster, with a British passport, I feel much more affliliation to the UK and fellow Brits than to Europeans....
Click to expand...
I'm 50, born in London, Consider myself English and not British, I definitely don't consider myself a European apart from Geographical positioning.
 
Bury Red said:
and that would be why you're buggering off to Canada? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Err is it ok for me to buy foreign made products and holiday abroad or am I being less patriotic?

ps. The Canada thing has nothing to do with my feelings above, not sure how you can use two totally unrealated facts and somehow try and shoehorn them in together.
 
Stanley Road said:
But you seem to dribble at the thought of anyone vetoing a uk deal with the eu.

Which way is it? You seem very pro eu so you have to live with the kak bits you don't like, that's how life is.
Click to expand...

PS I am not pro/against countries vetoing a uk deal with the EU. I am only saying that its probably what is going to happen
 
You must log in or register to reply here.