Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Kentonio said:
Ok, so you're demonstrating that you have a very old fashioned view of the world. Huge numbers of younger people (and plenty of older ones) don't feel much sense of national identity, beyond some vague little soundbites. A 20 year old student in Britain has a lot more in common with a counterpart in France or Germany or Sweden than they do with a 50 years old fellow Brit. And thanks to the Internet and free movement increasingly vast numbers are learning just that.

Our shared European identity is one of liberalism, tolerance, peace and freedom of movement, employment and trade. That's a much stronger and more personal identity than anything a national government has ever offered me. Given that Britain apparently doesn't share that, right now I have close to zero affinity to British culture, and I keep hearing the same from many of my friends.
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On the contrary, it's not an identity at all. It's simply a list of things which you consider desirable, which 'Europe' may or may not offer now or in the future. It's like saying: "I love my family because my Dad votes Labour and my sister is a feminist." What if your Dad changed his politics, and your sister settled down and became an old-fashioned Mum? Would you cease to love your family?

Partly because of a certain callowness in its view of life, the political left has always been attracted to supranational allegiances based on shared 'ideals'. This is hardly new. In the run up to WW1, socialist movements advocating the brotherhood of the 'proletariat' across all national boundaries were powerful in Europe. Once war was declared, the proletariat flocked to the ranks, and shot the crap out of each other for the next four years. The European working class had more genuine common cause than you have with your Swedish friends.
 
Will Absolute said:
On the contrary, it's not an identity at all. It's simply a list of things which you consider desirable, which 'Europe' may or may not offer now or in the future. It's like saying: "I love my family because my Dad votes Labour and my sister is a feminist." What if your Dad changed his politics, and your sister settled down and became an old-fashioned Mum? Would you cease to love your family?

Partly because of a certain callowness in its view of life, the political left has always been attracted to supranational allegiances based on shared 'ideals'. This is hardly new. In the run up to WW1, socialist movements advocating the brotherhood of the 'proletariat' across all national boundaries were powerful in Europe. Once war was declared, the proletariat flocked to the ranks, and shot the crap out of each other for the next four years. The European working class had more genuine common cause than you have with your Swedish friends.
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Bullshit quite frankly, don't tell me what matters to me or what forms my identity, I know that through my own life experiences and what draws me together with people who share my ideals. I can care for people who don't, but sharing a value base matters a lot more to me than whatever flag you happen to want to wave that week.
 
Kentonio said:
Bullshit quite frankly, don't tell me what matters to me or what forms my identity, I know that through my own life experiences and what draws me together with people who share my ideals. I can care for people who don't, but sharing a value base matters a lot more to me than whatever flag you happen to want to wave that week.
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So, if your Swedish friends donned their horned helmets, packed into longboats with Dragon heads on the bow, rowed across the North Sea, and landed on Lindisfarne to rape and pillage.... Would you fight or join 'em? :smirk:
 
I've got nothing against the idea of a European identity (quite like it actually), but I'm not sure it's really all that prevalent beyond the mere idea of it. Yes, a 20-year old student in London has much more common with another in Brussels or Madrid or somewhere else than with a 50-year old at the other end of the country...but is that EU exclusive? You could argue it applies even more to a UK student with someone from, say, America or Canada.

I don't particularly have any British identity or even see myself as being all that British...but then I'm not massive on national identity in general, even as a Scot. Probably was a while back, but that's sort of faded even though there's a lot I like about my country. But I'd still argue that it's probably easier to sort of define a British identity through our comedy, films, music etc than it is any great sense of European identity beyond things that could apply to beyond Europe as well.
 
C.M.P said:
I would have been very happy had that been the case, I say let that one street in bath make all our decisions!
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That's the equivalent to what Wallonia is for the continent
 
Stanley Road said:
They are constitutional country's in the United Kingdom
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TBF they seem to be more like subjects to an empire. Don't take me wrong I know that consensus is impossible. Hence what I've been criticising the EU on. However its also ridiculous to totally ignore the opinion of 2 countries out of 4 on a big decision like this.
 
devilish said:
TBF they seem to be more like subjects to an empire. Don't take me wrong I know that consensus is impossible. Hence what I've been criticising the EU on. However its also ridiculous to totally ignore the opinion of 2 countries out of 4 on a big decision like this.
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Looking at it from your side, england is the country and they are the subjects. Nearly 70% in england voted out. do they not count?
 
Cheesy said:
I've got nothing against the idea of a European identity (quite like it actually), but I'm not sure it's really all that prevalent beyond the mere idea of it. Yes, a 20-year old student in London has much more common with another in Brussels or Madrid or somewhere else than with a 50-year old at the other end of the country...but is that EU exclusive? You could argue it applies even more to a UK student with someone from, say, America or Canada.

I don't particularly have any British identity or even see myself as being all that British...but then I'm not massive on national identity in general, even as a Scot. Probably was a while back, but that's sort of faded even though there's a lot I like about my country. But I'd still argue that it's probably easier to sort of define a British identity through our comedy, films, music etc than it is any great sense of European identity beyond things that could apply to beyond Europe as well.
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Great point
 
Stanley Road said:
Looking at it from your side, england is the country and they are the subjects. Nearly 70% in england voted out. do they not count?
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If you say so. The irony is that Brexiteers claim that they are leaving the EU because Germany call the shots. Guess what in the EU Wallonia can stop everything while in the UK Westminster can simply ignore Scotland and Northern Ireland
 
Cheesy said:
I've got nothing against the idea of a European identity (quite like it actually), but I'm not sure it's really all that prevalent beyond the mere idea of it. Yes, a 20-year old student in London has much more common with another in Brussels or Madrid or somewhere else than with a 50-year old at the other end of the country...but is that EU exclusive? You could argue it applies even more to a UK student with someone from, say, America or Canada.

I don't particularly have any British identity or even see myself as being all that British...but then I'm not massive on national identity in general, even as a Scot. Probably was a while back, but that's sort of faded even though there's a lot I like about my country. But I'd still argue that it's probably easier to sort of define a British identity through our comedy, films, music etc than it is any great sense of European identity beyond things that could apply to beyond Europe as well.
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Makes sense.
 
Cheesy said:
I've got nothing against the idea of a European identity (quite like it actually), but I'm not sure it's really all that prevalent beyond the mere idea of it. Yes, a 20-year old student in London has much more common with another in Brussels or Madrid or somewhere else than with a 50-year old at the other end of the country...but is that EU exclusive? You could argue it applies even more to a UK student with someone from, say, America or Canada.

I don't particularly have any British identity or even see myself as being all that British...but then I'm not massive on national identity in general, even as a Scot. Probably was a while back, but that's sort of faded even though there's a lot I like about my country. But I'd still argue that it's probably easier to sort of define a British identity through our comedy, films, music etc than it is any great sense of European identity beyond things that could apply to beyond Europe as well.
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Good post.

The truth is that the average citizen of the British Isles has far more in common with an American or Australian than a Romanian or Lithuanian. European politicians can fill entire rooms with signed pieces of paper without altering that inconvenient reality.
 
Will Absolute said:
So, if your Swedish friends donned their horned helmets, packed into longboats with Dragon heads on the bow, rowed across the North Sea, and landed on Lindisfarne to rape and pillage.... Would you fight or join 'em? :smirk:
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If your English friends donned their bowler hats, packed into pedalos with Boris's head on the bow, rowed across the Channel, and landed in Normandy to try and sell us jam and biscuits.... I'm sure I wouldn't join 'em? :smirk:
 
Dan said:
It's 53.4% to 46.6% for England
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Also british expats were not allowed to vote despite being the most effected by brexit. I guesd they are children of a lesser god
 
Will Absolute said:
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Good post.

The truth is that the average citizen of the British Isles has far more in common with an American or Australian than a Romanian or Lithuanian. European politicians can fill entire rooms with signed pieces of paper without altering that inconvenient reality.
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Agree with you on that. We are cultural bedfellows with those countries so naturally it is easier to find identification.

I don't really buy this 'European identity' of liberalism and open borders etc. The EU is about economic pragmatism if you ask me, that is why countries join, it starts and ends there.
 
devilish said:
Also british expats were not allowed to vote despite being the most effected by brexit. I guesd they are children of a lesser god
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You could vote if you'd lived abroad for less than 15 years. But EU citizens residing in the UK couldn't vote and they are the most directly affected by Brexit.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Agree with you on that. We are cultural bedfellows with those countries so naturally it is easier to find identification.

I don't really buy this 'European identity' of liberalism and open borders etc. The EU is about economic pragmatism if you ask me, that is why countries join, it starts and ends there.
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If it did end there, there wouldn't be a problem. A more modest EU, without the political unity baggage, simply aiming for the economic betterment of people across Europe, could be a useful institution.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Agree with you on that. We are cultural bedfellows with those countries so naturally it is easier to find identification.

I don't really buy this 'European identity' of liberalism and open borders etc. The EU is about economic pragmatism if you ask me, that is why countries join, it starts and ends there.
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I don't think that's true either. EU citizens generally appreciate a lot more than just the economic pragmatism involved.
 
sullydnl said:
I don't think that's true either. EU citizens generally appreciate a lot more than just the economic pragmatism involved.
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Like getting better paid jobs in other countries?

I know that some people really do buy into the liberal ideals etc. About 50 of them had a a protest about it in Hungary last week.

maybe I am just being narrow minded because I have never considered myself an EU citizen. I like the idea of freedom of movement, not that it is likely I will ever use it.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
In self identification but the largest ancestry group is British American, it is that they tend to self identify as 'American'.

Out of curiosity, what is it that you dislike so much about the UK and that France offers you?
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If you include Ireland.

There are many things, difficult to describe other than the obvious like food, climate etc but if I had to name one, the mentality of people in general, I actually feel at home here, even a very, very long time before I moved here.
 
devilish said:
If you say so. The irony is that Brexiteers claim that they are leaving the EU because Germany call the shots. Guess what in the EU Wallonia can stop everything while in the UK Westminster can simply ignore Scotland and Northern Ireland
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Germany have a massive influence, Martin Schulz is now trying to persuade the 70k, probably with untold pain and suffering if they don't fall into line.

But do Brexiteers claim its cos Germany call the shots or are they just xenophobic, that was your first claim. You move the argument around as it suits
 
Stanley Road said:
Germany have a massive influence, Martin Schulz is now trying to persuade the 70k, probably with untold pain and suffering if they don't fall into line.

But do Brexiteers claim its cos Germany call the shots or are they just xenophobic, that was your first claim. You move the argument around as it suits
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Its got a strong influence but it doesn't call the shots for everybody.The Bundestag is not Westminster

Xenophobia, cluelessness on how the EU work, people voting for Nigel Farage.....it boils to one thing........ignorance. I find that the many Brits aren't very knowledgeable in politics. How can you explain that people like Davis and Boris are given so much power instead of being taken to a square to simply be laughed at? I mean the majority of people think that Davis is an expert about the EU. Do they really hear what he says?
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
In theory you have a point but in reality the EU will sacrifice terms the UK would have liked in order to buy off some other EU faction. The whole idea that we get great deals because we negotiate jointly is suspect because we don't jointly want the same types of deal and we can't test the reality because we are not allowed to negotiate separately to find out.

When we leave the EU we will find out until then it is all speculation and no one really knows for sure if they are honest about it.
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Its more like we get most of what we want on really good terms in the EU. Outside the EU we might get all that we want but on ok terms
 
Stanley Road said:
Which trade deal was that to do with? Stop taking the piss
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All I am saying is that people protest all the time mate. Thank god we're not the sort to protest for everything. The Italians are much worse on that
 
sun_tzu said:
Are they?
Hasn't the government said they are happy for anybody here to continue to stay? If so are they effected that much?
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They haven't said that though. Fox said they are one of the main negotiating cards we hold. May said she expects to allow them to stay but that depends on other countries (basically a gentler way of calling them a negotiating tool).
 
Will Absolute said:
So, if your Swedish friends donned their horned helmets, packed into longboats with Dragon heads on the bow, rowed across the North Sea, and landed on Lindisfarne to rape and pillage.... Would you fight or join 'em? :smirk:
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And the award for the most unlikely scenario goes to..
 
Cheesy said:
I've got nothing against the idea of a European identity (quite like it actually), but I'm not sure it's really all that prevalent beyond the mere idea of it. Yes, a 20-year old student in London has much more common with another in Brussels or Madrid or somewhere else than with a 50-year old at the other end of the country...but is that EU exclusive? You could argue it applies even more to a UK student with someone from, say, America or Canada.

I don't particularly have any British identity or even see myself as being all that British...but then I'm not massive on national identity in general, even as a Scot. Probably was a while back, but that's sort of faded even though there's a lot I like about my country. But I'd still argue that it's probably easier to sort of define a British identity through our comedy, films, music etc than it is any great sense of European identity beyond things that could apply to beyond Europe as well.
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I think the point is that the EU and free movement strengthen that bond.
 
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