Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Maticmaker said:
The worst of this happened over a period of years, pre,/during Britain's membership of the EU, when the City of London became the centre of Britain's universe

This will happen anyway, that's why a social contract is needed with the British people, in order to enter into this government finance raising with confidence

No, immigration is and will in future become a real problem, its the Tories who are making it 'front and centre' to scare people

We don't have people with the right skills now. The British governments ability to predict skill requirements let alone deficiencies is laughable and has been since the ITB's were defunded and then MSC/ TEC's were allowed to waste monies, trying to keep the unemployment stats down rather than train where necessary. Ironically it was Maggie Thatchers government that tried to reverse things, but other things got in the way!

AI will change some of that otherwise it will be people who cannot do anything else, or deals made for temporary selected labour (might involve immigrants!) from abroad.

Yes if you keep replaying the 'Brexit movie' and expecting the result to change, you yourself Paul have said many times there is no going back, the EU doesn't want us.... even if we went on our knees and dug a hole the right size to boot!
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A lot of industry was destroyed before and during EU membership . Brexit will finish it off. It never adapted. Still isn't.

The immigration problem has exploded because of Brexit. Exactly as predicted. But it shouldn't be a such a huge problem if managed correctly. The government want the people to focus on immigration and especially the small boats to distract their attention from how they are destroying the country.
If you put a group of lying , incompetent, unscrupulous people in charge of the country, the people themselves are to blame.

The unemployment stats are a joke, they're made to look good, they're now called economcally inactive.

Why would people come to help out the UK when they have no prospects of making a life. This is not the 19th century even if JRM thinks it is. Occasional seasonal workers are not the solution.

AI made me laugh. Sunak announces he's investing £100m per year over ten years and says the UK is world leading. The EU are investing more than 35 times that and the USA 40 times that.

The Brexit movie has only just begun, it's just the prologue. The Tories and Labour keep hoping and praying that for some unknown reason which nobody can tell us what it is, everything will turn out fine and they keep digging away.

The UK is not returning to the EU any time soon. What I am saying is that the UK keeps drifting further and further away because for that unknown reason it's supposed to able to turn out alright.

But stop going away, admit the mistake , turn around and start making your way back , as long as it may take.

There must be one person in the UK who can inform the rest of the world how Brexit is going to help the UK. (Leaving out all the lies, of course).
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The UK is not returning to the EU any time soon. What I am saying is that the UK keeps drifting further and further away because for that unknown reason it's supposed to able to turn out alright.
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Correct, we are not going back, well not in my lifetime (whats left of it). Yes we keep drifting away, it is obvious that would happen and it was even predicted that we would float away (metaphorically speaking) into the North Sea or maybe the Atlantic. Presumably to be able to position ourselves between the US, EU and now possibly BRICS, doing a 'little bit of business' with each, and not to be reliant on just one.

Starmer has no choice he has to go 'all in' with a Social Contract first, then worry about how to pay for it afterwards, the question is when does he release his 'contact'. Risk waiting until he's elected and perhaps losing more than he gains, or going early and be finding that a 'dream' could rapidly turn into a nightmare, with the Tory Press having the dream narrative control stick!

Yes, he is dropping hints about 'war chests' and so on, but these will only last a short time even if they are fully successful. Brexit should have taught British politicians one thing, that a great many people care as much, if not more, about social conditions as they do about economic conditions, mainly because the average person can see the results of not having their own home or security of tenure, of, not being able to get in at the school of their choice unless they move, of 'real' jobs disappearing, or rather, only those wanting 'zero hours' should apply, etc.
I don't know what the figures were but an educated guess would be that something like 70% of those voting for leave knew little if anything about how the EU worked or how Britain's politicians were poor at playing the EU game. So poor at it that they asked the most simplistic question in relation to a most highly complex issue..... "do you want more of the same, or a change"?
We all know the answer to that one, especially in red wall areas. Starmer is not going to make that mistake again.

He will need (at some point) to explain in his Social Contract that the government will borrow 'x' to deliver 'y'; increase taxes to raise 'a' for then to deliver 'b', specify the timescales involved to assess the progress, that achievement will be measured in actual terms delivered not in theoretical projections. These will be massive sums of money spread over various time periods, many of the majority who have to be convinced of its worth to such as them, will not see the end result themselves... and that is 'the rub' for the modern day politician, it's why 'target Net Zero' etc. is very hard to convince people who will be gone from the scene long before its achieved, to make the sacrifices now.

The only chance Starmer has is to make sure the majority of people (those who vote at least) can see the benefit for them and not have to be resigned to their lot, but actually look forward to the resulting change.

Admittedly its a 'big ask' as many philosophers have told us... 'even those who will eventually benefit from change, are often opposed to it to begin with'.

However continuing to day dream about something that will not happen for eons, if at all, is wasteful and just as disastrous in the longer term as voting 'leave' was.
 
Maticmaker said:
Correct, we are not going back, well not in my lifetime (whats left of it). Yes we keep drifting away, it is obvious that would happen and it was even predicted that we would float away (metaphorically speaking) into the North Sea or maybe the Atlantic. Presumably to be able to position ourselves between the US, EU and now possibly BRICS, doing a 'little bit of business' with each, and not to be reliant on just one.

Starmer has no choice he has to go 'all in' with a Social Contract first, then worry about how to pay for it afterwards, the question is when does he release his 'contact'. Risk waiting until he's elected and perhaps losing more than he gains, or going early and be finding that a 'dream' could rapidly turn into a nightmare, with the Tory Press having the dream narrative control stick!

Yes, he is dropping hints about 'war chests' and so on, but these will only last a short time even if they are fully successful. Brexit should have taught British politicians one thing, that a great many people care as much, if not more, about social conditions as they do about economic conditions, mainly because the average person can see the results of not having their own home or security of tenure, of, not being able to get in at the school of their choice unless they move, of 'real' jobs disappearing, or rather, only those wanting 'zero hours' should apply, etc.
I don't know what the figures were but an educated guess would be that something like 70% of those voting for leave knew little if anything about how the EU worked or how Britain's politicians were poor at playing the EU game. So poor at it that they asked the most simplistic question in relation to a most highly complex issue..... "do you want more of the same, or a change"?
We all know the answer to that one, especially in red wall areas. Starmer is not going to make that mistake again.

He will need (at some point) to explain in his Social Contract that the government will borrow 'x' to deliver 'y'; increase taxes to raise 'a' for then to deliver 'b', specify the timescales involved to assess the progress, that achievement will be measured in actual terms delivered not in theoretical projections. These will be massive sums of money spread over various time periods, many of the majority who have to be convinced of its worth to such as them, will not see the end result themselves... and that is 'the rub' for the modern day politician, it's why 'target Net Zero' etc. is very hard to convince people who will be gone from the scene long before its achieved, to make the sacrifices now.

The only chance Starmer has is to make sure the majority of people (those who vote at least) can see the benefit for them and not have to be resigned to their lot, but actually look forward to the resulting change.

Admittedly its a 'big ask' as many philosophers have told us... 'even those who will eventually benefit from change, are often opposed to it to begin with'.

However continuing to day dream about something that will not happen for eons, if at all, is wasteful and just as disastrous in the longer term as voting 'leave' was.
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But what you said about the USA, the EU, the Commonwealth countries and all the rest is part of the Brexit lie.

The Brexiters said that the Uk were now free to trade with the rest of the world after leaving the constraints of being tied to the EU. It is a lie. And I've called it out as a lie for over 7 years.
It's not because I think it is a lie. It's because I know it is a lie. I've recounted my professional history many times on here.

After leaving the EU, the UK will not gain additional trade with the USA, the Commonwealth countries, South America, the CPTTP and so on. The only thing is does is put up barriers, not only with EU but with the other countries as well. I guarantee you that. On the financial and services side, that will also gradually ebb away.

The UK were already trading with these countries, that's what I did most of my working life, with a British based company. I haven't come across anyone in the Tory Party or the Labour Party who has the slightest idea how international trade works. Possibly Hilary Benn is the most knowledgeable.

The EU and the USA will always remain the biggest trading partners of the UK unless the UK does up anchor and plants itself off the coast of Madagascar.

Take India, the trade with India is tiny. They don't need the UK. What little trade there is between the UK, is for scrap and some machinery.
Developing markets means a market that starts from a low base and can't afford products made in the UK, EU etc. At best they will buy from local countries such as Japan, Australia etc
Is it just a lie or just ignorance on behalf of the Brexiters.

When they asked -do you want a change? people may well have wanted a change, but not for the worse. Britain desperately needs honest and courageous politicians. I don't see anyone and certainly not Starmer or Sunak. Someone who tells it like it is. I know the press will murder them but if nothing ever changes it will carry on forever more. Someone has got to be brave enough to stop it.

The joke is Farage who sets himself out as some sort of hero of the people , whereas in fact him and Johnson have lied so much to the British people and have done more damage to the UK than anyone in recent history.
 
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Buster15 said:
In other words no choice at all. Because you, me and everyone else knows that this is just not going to happen. There will be no begging. The UK will stumble on with essentially a stagnant economy. And those who voted leave will continue to bury their heads in the sand hoping for some kind of miracle which will never materialise while blaming everyone else.
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Depressingly true.
 
Buster15 said:
In other words no choice at all. Because you, me and everyone else knows that this is just not going to happen. There will be no begging. The UK will stumble on with essentially a stagnant economy. And those who voted leave will continue to bury their heads in the sand hoping for some kind of miracle which will never materialise while blaming everyone else.
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I hope you’re wrong, and a part of me thinks you are. But it will be another 15 years or something. The youth of this country are largely pro-EU, almost all the boomers, and definitively all of the silent generation won’t be alive.

I might be being naive but it’s what gets me through the day!
 
NicolaSacco said:
I hope you’re wrong, and a part of me thinks you are. But it will be another 15 years or something. The youth of this country are largely pro-EU, almost all the boomers, and definitively all of the silent generation won’t be alive.

I might be being naive but it’s what gets me through the day!
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I really do wish that I am wrong. But I try to be realistic. And I honestly can not see anything changing, for at least a generation.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But what you said about the USA, the EU, the Commonwealth countries and all the rest is part of the Brexit lie.

The Brexiters said that the Uk were now free to trade with the rest of the world after leaving the constraints of being tied to the EU. It is a lie. And I've called it out as a lie for over 7 years.
It's not because I think it is a lie. It's because I know it is a lie. I've recounted my professional history many times on here.

After leaving the EU, the UK will not gain additional trade with the USA, the Commonwealth countries, South America, the CPTTP and so on. The only thing is does is put up barriers, not only with EU but with the other countries as well. I guarantee you that. On the financial and services side, that will also gradually ebb away.

The UK were already trading with these countries, that's what I did most of my working life, with a British based company. I haven't come across anyone in the Tory Party or the Labour Party who has the slightest idea how international trade works. Possibly Hilary Benn is the most knowledgeable.

The EU and the USA will always remain the biggest trading partners of the UK unless the UK does up anchor and plants itself off the coast of Madagascar.

Take India, the trade with India is tiny. They don't need the UK. What little trade there is between the UK, is for scrap and some machinery.
Developing markets means a market that starts from a low base and can't afford products made in the UK, EU etc. At best they will buy from local countries such as Japan, Australia etc
Is it just a lie or just ignorance on behalf of the Brexiters.

When they asked -do you want a change? people may well have wanted a change, but not for the worse. Britain desperately needs honest and courageous politicians. I don't see anyone and certainly not Starmer or Sunak. Someone who tells it like it is. I know the press will murder them but if nothing ever changes it will carry on forever more. Someone has got to be brave enough to stop it.

The joke is Farage who sets himself out as some sort of hero of the people , whereas in fact him and Johnson have lied so much to the British people and have done more damage to the UK than anyone in recent history.
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I am not doubting what you say but the fact remains, the UK has to find a way forward without the EU, there simply is no going back, the longer we kid ourselves that we can get back, the more damage is done. Brexit, even the question of Brexit was a mistake, but that was because the wrong question or rather an over simplified question was put by politicians who as you say had no idea what they were doing.

During the last 10-12 years of my working life I had lots of dealings with various Chambers of Commerce across the North West, Yorkshire and parts of the North East and Wales. What was abundantly clear, and this was 4 to 5 years before the Brexit vote, was (and still is) the rundown state of much industry and commerce especially outside the major City's, whether it was Labour or Tory controlled made little difference, indeed many 'rock solid Labour areas (now referred as red wall areas) bore the brunt. You mentioned that nobody voted for a worse change, in many of these areas that wasn't even a comparison to made, any change would have to be better, especially if, as was sold to the population, after we were out of the EU that it would be our politicians who were responsible and no EU to hide behind.

A large, even an immense social change is needed and that is where Starmer (I believe, is heading). This isn't the old fashioned 'nationalisation' policies revisited, although some public ownership will be required in some areas, but it starts by putting the majority of people at the heart of it, those able and willing to work will become the new favoured group for Starmer. Those people who everyday make the countries wheels go around have to be more than supported, they have to be energised, with good housing, education, social welfare and health services provision, as a bare minimum.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, changes to the very fabric of what constitutes the 'British Isles' may well have to be faced and resolved as part of this social contract. Possibly for the first time a modern day written constitution for these Islands, the needs associated with climate change, migration, water/energy supplies, etc will ensure that.

The way we do everything will have to change.
 
Maticmaker said:
I am not doubting what you say but the fact remains, the UK has to find a way forward without the EU, there simply is no going back, the longer we kid ourselves that we can get back, the more damage is done. Brexit, even the question of Brexit was a mistake, but that was because the wrong question or rather an over simplified question was put by politicians who as you say had no idea what they were doing.

During the last 10-12 years of my working life I had lots of dealings with various Chambers of Commerce across the North West, Yorkshire and parts of the North East and Wales. What was abundantly clear, and this was 4 to 5 years before the Brexit vote, was (and still is) the rundown state of much industry and commerce especially outside the major City's, whether it was Labour or Tory controlled made little difference, indeed many 'rock solid Labour areas (now referred as red wall areas) bore the brunt. You mentioned that nobody voted for a worse change, in many of these areas that wasn't even a comparison to made, any change would have to be better, especially if, as was sold to the population, after we were out of the EU that it would be our politicians who were responsible and no EU to hide behind.

A large, even an immense social change is needed and that is where Starmer (I believe, is heading). This isn't the old fashioned 'nationalisation' policies revisited, although some public ownership will be required in some areas, but it starts by putting the majority of people at the heart of it, those able and willing to work will become the new favoured group for Starmer. Those people who everyday make the countries wheels go around have to be more than supported, they have to be energised, with good housing, education, social welfare and health services provision, as a bare minimum.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, changes to the very fabric of what constitutes the 'British Isles' may well have to be faced and resolved as part of this social contract. Possibly for the first time a modern day written constitution for these Islands, the needs associated with climate change, migration, water/energy supplies, etc will ensure that.

The way we do everything will have to change.
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I understand completely what you are saying.

Everything was left to run down and the politicians were responsible for that. There's no constitution, no accountability and no democracy.
They didn't offer anything good for change - except lies.

They hid behing blaming the EU , even now years after leaving , they say the EU punishing us. No, the UK punished itself. Blaming the EU is not now quite so easy so they turn people's focus more onto immigrants.

But to be able to make any change for the better, the country has got to function.

How is the UK going to function? There's been the Aus/NZ deal, the CPTTP deal, all worthless but told to the people that this is the new way forward. Now a propective new India deal, which again is worthless. You can see that the Brexiters still believe all the nonsense in the press. A new glimmer of hope that isn't there.

So when reality hits, what's the next step? The UK wastes thirty/forty/fifty years because they were conned by the likes of Johnson and Farage and end up rejoining long after we're both dead.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
So when reality hits, what's the next step? The UK wastes thirty/forty/fifty years because they were conned by the likes of Johnson and Farage and end up rejoining long after we're both dead.
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I think they call it 'reinventing yourself!'

If we believe survival on this plant is possible then everything has to change, the 'degrees of change' will depend on individual countries and not trading groups.
Those with the best social contracts with their own populations will survive, but in what form we don't know. Everyone 'singing from the same hymn sheet' would be a good idea. However it's likely that whatever structures exist now, will in fifty or so years have changed radically and that includes trading blocks. Yes, the option to join the EU may present itself but I suspect it won't, for political rather than economic reasons.

The fact is we just don't know what the world will be like in fifty years time, we have to deal with the here and now. I am hopeful as the likely new PM, that Starmer has a plan for change, radical change.... but to quote the famous star trek line... "its change Paul, but not as we know it"
 
Maticmaker said:
I think they call it 'reinventing yourself!'

If we believe survival on this plant is possible then everything has to change, the 'degrees of change' will depend on individual countries and not trading groups.
Those with the best social contracts with their own populations will survive, but in what form we don't know. Everyone 'singing from the same hymn sheet' would be a good idea. However it's likely that whatever structures exist now, will in fifty or so years have changed radically and that includes trading blocks. Yes, the option to join the EU may present itself but I suspect it won't, for political rather than economic reasons.

The fact is we just don't know what the world will be like in fifty years time, we have to deal with the here and now. I am hopeful as the likely new PM, that Starmer has a plan for change, radical change.... but to quote the famous star trek line... "its change Paul, but not as we know it"
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Things change of course, but not as much as one would think. My immediate concern for the UK is how they get past 2030. It will be called another Project Fear which turned out to be Project Reality which hasn't finished yet. The worst part of the first stage after Brexit is from 2024 to 2029. Let's see what people's views are after that. Starmer will probably be in charge during the worst time.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Things change of course, but not as much as one would think. My immediate concern for the UK is how they get past 2030. It will be called another Project Fear which turned out to be Project Reality which hasn't finished yet. The worst part of the first stage after Brexit is from 2024 to 2029. Let's see what people's views are after that. Starmer will probably be in charge during the worst time.
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The rate of change is always important. I do think we will see more rapid change, not just due to the UK leaving the EU, but because the UK itself has to change; its constituent parts are no longer of one mind on many crucial social and constitutional issues, these issues will be not be attenuated and will not go away.
There are economic issues of course, as you point out from Brexit that's why the future of Ireland is of particular importance not to just the Irish, but to the rest of the UK. Six months ago I would have said Scottish Independence would have been once again high on the agenda at the next GE, but given the SNP's troubles that might not be the case; however, as many people point out not all those wishing Independence are in the SNP camp.

We are a dogged set of nations within these islands and have traded far and wide for a great length of time, but the extent of changes that are directly attributable to Brexit will be consumed by other matters. As you said, new political slogans will appear, may be some old ones a well. Serious politicians (of all parties)will need to be much more sure-footed than they have been since the millennium, and will have to ensure the 'chancers' and 'carpet-baggers' appearing in their midst don't get the opportunity to mislead or fool people; however, to do that they have to make sure the direction they take appeals to the people who keep the wheels turning, that is the majority.
 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nflict-of-interest-row-over-india-trade-talks

Allowing more visas for its workers in sectors such as IT and artificial intelligence is a key Indian demand in the talks over a free-trade agreement. The UK, for its part, is seeking reductions in the high tariffs on exports to India of goods including Scotch whisky and cars.

There are people who actually believe that the UK are going to benefit from this. Beyond belief.

Just to show how pathetic this is.
India already import 70% of its hard liquor from the UK - not worth very much.

UK already are one of the main suppliers of cars to India about 15% about the same as China and Germany. Unfortunately the market is tiny. The UK export twice as many to the Czech Republic alone.

Delusional is not strong enough.
 
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Rishi Sunak rules out quick-fix trade deal with India Exclusive: Sources believe deal will not be struck before meeting with Narendra Modi at G20 summit


Rishi Sunak rules out quick-fix trade deal with India
Exclusive: Sources believe deal will not be struck before meeting with Narendra Modi at G20 summit

Is India the last hope for Brexiters?

There is no quick fix and a deal with India will solve nothing, it will not increase trade but just give a few extra visas to Indians who wish to come to the UK.

Either they stop being so incompetently stupid or they stop lying.

Something has to give.
 
horsechoker said:
Brexit betrayal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-scheme-expected-to-be-confirmed-within-days

UK to return to EU’s flagship Horizon science research programme

Post-Brexit return to £85bn scheme discussed this week, say sources, and is set to be announced on Thursday
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The first crack in the dyke. To be followed by other easy decisions like rejoining Erasmus before we start to address the six ton elephant with diarrhoea in the room that the political class has been studiously avoiding for the past few years.
 
MoskvaRed said:
The first crack in the dyke. To be followed by other easy decisions like rejoining Erasmus before we start to address the six ton elephant with diarrhoea in the room that the political class has been studiously avoiding for the past few years.
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No need to be homophobic
 
horsechoker said:
Brexit betrayal

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...n-scheme-expected-to-be-confirmed-within-days

UK to return to EU’s flagship Horizon science research programme

Post-Brexit return to £85bn scheme discussed this week, say sources, and is set to be announced on Thursday
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But the EU has agreed to the UK’s demand not to rejoin the Euratom programme. The UK will instead pursue a domestic fusion energy strategy.

The European Commission said the UK would contribute about £2.6bn on average a year to Horizon and Copernicus, with the UK’s contributions due to start from January 2024. Downing Street said this would also “provide breathing space to boost the participation of UK researchers in open calls for grants before we start paying into the programme”.

Any fist-waving from the Brexiteers - paying £2.6bn to the EU scheme.?

Also scuppers Braverman's threat to leave the ECHR as this would be dead along with the TCA and other agreements.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Any fist-waving from the Brexiteers - paying £2.6bn to the EU scheme.?

Also scuppers Braverman's threat to leave the ECHR as this would be dead along with the TCA and other agreements.
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None whatsoever, it's a good deal for the UK (one Paul that you have always maintained we could not get) but many Brexiteers' would no doubt say the UK has 'dogged the bullet' in not having to contribute to the make up required in the current EU budget, reputedly 59 Billion Euros.

This ECHR threat was always a non-starter, just part of the 'noise distraction' being made by some Tories over the small boats saga. The fact that this TORY government has already (if somewhat quietly) stop shredding all remaining EU laws already operating in the UK, means the ECHR is here to stay.

All these issues/gradual movements towards further deals with the EU convince me the UK is taking a new path, but it still has a need to live side by side with its neighbours in some sort of harmony, time is a great healer Paul as I am sure you recognise.
 
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Maticmaker said:
None whatsoever, its a good deal for the UK (one Paul that you have always maintained we could not get) but many Brexiteers' would no doubt say the UK has 'dogged the bullet' in not having to contribute to the make up required in the current EU budget, reputedly 59 Billion Euros.

This ECHR threat was always a non-starter, just part of the 'noise distraction' being made by some Tories over the small boats saga. The fact that this TORY government has already (if somewhat quietly) stop shredding all remaining EU laws already operating in the UK, means the ECHR is here to stay.

All these issues/gradual movements towards further deals with the EU convince me the UK is taking a new path, but it still has a need to live side by side with its neighbours in some sort of harmony, time is a great healer Paul as I am sure you recognise.
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You can get it if you pay for it. You just get a minor role as not being an EU country. You can't have it for free. You do realise that the Uk are paying more net to the EU now than when they were in it and getting little in return (Uk's choice) and don't forget that the Uk have to pay for Farage and his useless cohorts and their pensions until they die. That was value for money.

Remaining in the ECHR was always here to stay - otherwise the UK would be finished or on a Belarus level - it was red meat for the racists and xenophobes.

The main problem will always remain the trade barriers whilst outside the SM and CU which they can do nothing about. The current load of nonsense is about trying to sell products to Commonwealth countries which the Commonwealth countries have no interest in buying.

We both know it will take time - so they can continue to play charades for as long as they can string it out and pretend that Brexit could ever work. Looks like Starmer will carry on the farce. Tories have pinched a couple things that Starmer thought he could claim credit for - settling the NI issue and Horizon.
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
But the EU has agreed to the UK’s demand not to rejoin the Euratom programme. The UK will instead pursue a domestic fusion energy strategy.

The European Commission said the UK would contribute about £2.6bn on average a year to Horizon and Copernicus, with the UK’s contributions due to start from January 2024. Downing Street said this would also “provide breathing space to boost the participation of UK researchers in open calls for grants before we start paying into the programme”.

Any fist-waving from the Brexiteers - paying £2.6bn to the EU scheme.?

Also scuppers Braverman's threat to leave the ECHR as this would be dead along with the TCA and other agreements.
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No chance of the ECHR issue escalating as the GFA hinges on it.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
You can get it if you pay for it. You just get a minor role as not being an EU country. You can't have it for free. You do realise that the Uk are paying more net to the EU now than when they were in it and getting little in return (Uk's choice) and don't forget that the Uk have to pay for Farage and his useless cohorts and their pensions until they die. That was value for money.

Remaining in the ECHR was always here to stay - otherwise the UK would be finished or on a Belarus level - it was red meat for the racists and xenophobes.

The main problem will always remain the trade barriers whilst outside the SM and CU which they can do nothing about. The current load of nonsense is about trying to sell products to Commonwealth countries which the Commonwealth countries have no interest in buying.

We both know it will take time - so they can continue to play charades for as long as they can string it out and pretend that Brexit could ever work. Looks like Starmer will carry on the farce. Tories have pinched a couple things that Starmer thought he could claim credit for - settling the NI issue and Horizon.
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Of course, but surely the brexiteer argument is, we choose to pay now, if we had been a member, we would have had no choice, as in stumping up to make the shortfall in current budgets (59 B euros)

The UK will pay more now, but again its by choice and its no longer headline stuff like 'EU demands that...", now its "we've done a deal....", and yes this is the way Starmer will go, softly softly, no headlines, all quiet on the EU front.

PS Not sure this is the NI issue, but if it is 'fixed', its always going to be a 'powder keg', waiting for someone, Unionist or Republican to light the blue touch paper, just look at the Stormont situation right now.
 
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Maticmaker said:
Of course, but surely the brexiteer argument is, we choose to pay now, if we had been a member, we would have had no choice, as in stumping up to make the shortfall in current budgets (59 B euros)

The UK will pay more now, but again its by choice and its no longer headline stuff like 'EU demands that...", now its "we've done a deal....", and yes this is the way Starmer will go, softly softly, no headlines, all quiet on the EU front.

PS Not sure this is the NI issue, but if it is 'fixed', its always going to be a 'powder keg', waiting for someone, Unionist or Republican to light the blue touch paper, just look at the Stormont situation right now.
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But this continues the lies and misleading arguments presented by the brexiters to the British public and continues to this day. The EU is portrayed in the Uk as some anonymous evil monster who decided to punish the UK . Whereas the Uk was one of the three main leaders of decisions and policy throughout.

The Uk had all special favours which they decided to tear up. And of course they lost all the benefits of barrierless free trade. The Uk decided to voluntarily destroy their own economy and cost the country billions and billions of pounds just to save the cost of a membership fee which gave them vast opportunities. Not a very economically sound judgement.

Starmer has announced that he is not going to join the CU or the SM (even if the Uk would comply with the rules and be accepted by other member states). Therefore he has officially declared to continue the destruction of the UK economy, a slow death.

His green policy has died a death as well as nobody wants to invest in the UK's wind policy as it has become too expensive. Another reason why Starmer doesn't want Scotland to have another referendum because without Scotland, England's green policy is dead.

The NI issue is settled as far as it can. The DUP never did want a settlement under any format so that is an internal UK matter for them to deal with. If the Uk break the agreement and/or the ECHR the Uk won't have problems with just the EU but most of the western world too.

Starmer clearly has no sensible plan other than to try and appease the racists, xenophobes and gullibles. He won't last 5 years in power.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But this continues the lies and misleading arguments presented by the brexiters to the British public and continues to this day. The EU is portrayed in the Uk as some anonymous evil monster who decided to punish the UK . Whereas the Uk was one of the three main leaders of decisions and policy throughout.

The Uk had all special favours which they decided to tear up. And of course they lost all the benefits of barrierless free trade. The Uk decided to voluntarily destroy their own economy and cost the country billions and billions of pounds just to save the cost of a membership fee which gave them vast opportunities. Not a very economically sound judgement.

Starmer has announced that he is not going to join the CU or the SM (even if the Uk would comply with the rules and be accepted by other member states). Therefore he has officially declared to continue the destruction of the UK economy, a slow death.

His green policy has died a death as well as nobody wants to invest in the UK's wind policy as it has become too expensive. Another reason why Starmer doesn't want Scotland to have another referendum because without Scotland, England's green policy is dead.

The NI issue is settled as far as it can. The DUP never did want a settlement under any format so that is an internal UK matter for them to deal with. If the Uk break the agreement and/or the ECHR the Uk won't have problems with just the EU but most of the western world too.

Starmer clearly has no sensible plan other than to try and appease the racists, xenophobes and gullibles. He won't last 5 years in power.
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The dye has been cast, the referendum said it all, "do you want to stay as you are (remain)"; or "want to change (leave)" it was that simple. Be careful what you wish for.... but no ones really listening!

The 'special favours' you talk about were never put to the UK public for support, on any level, nor were their withdrawal, once again this is what built up the resentment; no body in the UK parliamentary 'circus' asked 'Joe public', either way and when things didn't go as the UK government of the time wanted, then it was all the EU's fault.

The Unionist also want to use ECHR issues used in their favour, its a 'see-saw'! The UK needs to sort this out once and for all, EU or no EU!

Starmer has to get in power first and at last he is learning to keep his powder dry!
 
Maticmaker said:
The dye has been cast, the referendum said it all, "do you want to stay as you are (remain)"; or "want to change (leave)" it was that simple. Be careful what you wish for.... but no ones really listening!

The 'special favours' you talk about were never put to the UK public for support, on any level, nor were their withdrawal, once again this is what built up the resentment; no body in the UK parliamentary 'circus' asked 'Joe public', either way and when things didn't go as the UK government of the time wanted, then it was all the EU's fault.

The Unionist also want to use ECHR issues used in their favour, its a 'see-saw'! The UK needs to sort this out once and for all, EU or no EU!

Starmer has to get in power first and at last he is learning to keep his powder dry!
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Yes but what happens next. The ECHR is not the EU. Membership of the ECHR is vital for the Uk's relationship with most other western countries, not least the USA; Withdrawal from the ECHR will end most trade agreements the Uk have. But the only one of any significance is the one with the EU. Think the UK have problems now, Pandora's Box will explode.

Keeping his powder dry to do what? If the Tories hadn't self destructed in a normal GE he would have no chance of getting elected.
He has nothing to offer, nothing to offer the EU, nothing to offer other countries and nothing to offer the British public.
If he's too scared to state what he stands for then what's the point; a cowardly fool as he has conducted himself through his term as opposition leader. If he thinks if he does tell the world what his plans are (if he actualy has any) they won't be liked, then he's lost before he's started.

Pointless politician.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Yes but what happens next. The ECHR is not the EU. Membership of the ECHR is vital for the Uk's relationship with most other western countries, not least the USA; Withdrawal from the ECHR will end most trade agreements the Uk have. But the only one of any significance is the one with the EU. Think the UK have problems now, Pandora's Box will explode.

Keeping his powder dry to do what? If the Tories hadn't self destructed in a normal GE he would have no chance of getting elected.
He has nothing to offer, nothing to offer the EU, nothing to offer other countries and nothing to offer the British public.
If he's too scared to state what he stands for then what's the point; a cowardly fool as he has conducted himself through his term as opposition leader. If he thinks if he does tell the world what his plans are (if he actually has any) they won't be liked, then he's lost before he's started.

Pointless politician.
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Precisely, the UK 'jettisoning' the ECHR has never been a real issue except in the minds of some politicians who want to use withdrawal as an issue internal to the UK power struggles, both left and right!

Keeping his powder dry in order to win a large majority at the next GE.
Winning 'old Labour' style with a handful of seats is not enough. If Starmer could rely on Scotland going back to sending 40+ or so Labour MPs down to Westminster, he might have some 'wiggle room', but just now he has to be all things to all men(and women) and not to scare the children. In order to win 'big', and he has to 'win big' in order to roll back the Tories so far, that their main concern will focus on being a party fighting for its own survival rather than being a proper opposition at Westminster.

The next Labour PM has to lead the UK (possibly a remodeled UK) out of the mess its been flung by Tories and fate, and into a future that is very uncertain in terms of survival. 'Big ideas' are needed that will shape the country for decades. Ideas that directly impact/improve of the lives of millions and put the people who keep the wheels turning in the van of the policy decisions, that is the majority, who need to know where they are going, and will go along with whatever he comes up with.
 
Maticmaker said:
Precisely, the UK 'jettisoning' the ECHR has never been a real issue except in the minds of some politicians who want to use withdrawal as an issue internal to the UK power struggles, both left and right!

Keeping his powder dry in order to win a large majority at the next GE.
Winning 'old Labour' style with a handful of seats is not enough. If Starmer could rely on Scotland going back to sending 40+ or so Labour MPs down to Westminster, he might have some 'wiggle room', but just now he has to be all things to all men(and women) and not to scare the children. In order to win 'big', and he has to 'win big' in order to roll back the Tories so far, that their main concern will focus on being a party fighting for its own survival rather than being a proper opposition at Westminster.

The next Labour PM has to lead the UK (possibly a remodeled UK) out of the mess its been flung by Tories and fate, and into a future that is very uncertain in terms of survival. 'Big ideas' are needed that will shape the country for decades. Ideas that directly impact/improve of the lives of millions and put the people who keep the wheels turning in the van of the policy decisions, that is the majority, who need to know where they are going, and will go along with whatever he comes up with.
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Even if his intentions are honourable and aims to do all the things you say. How does the UK survive having their economy gradually eroded away?
Starmer maintains he can make Brexit work. Either he's very stupid or he's still away with the unicorns.

You may say he has to make it work. But there is no route to make it work. The Uk has reached a dead end with nowhere to go but backwards and the longer they take to go backwards the worse it will get.

You know that the Tories will say at the following election that Starmer hasn't properly implemented whatever they imagine Brexit to be. The voters will see a British economy in 2029 which will be in a far worse state than it is now. So who will be to blame?

"Labour have destroyed the economy because we haven't got the right Brexit" will be the narrative.

Then Starmer gets voted out if he's still PM by then and then the whole cycle starts over again.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Even if his intentions are honourable and aims to do all the things you say. How does the UK survive having their economy gradually eroded away?
Starmer maintains he can make Brexit work. Either he's very stupid or he's still away with the unicorns.

You may say he has to make it work. But there is no route to make it work. The Uk has reached a dead end with nowhere to go but backwards and the longer they take to go backwards the worse it will get.

You know that the Tories will say at the following election that Starmer hasn't properly implemented whatever they imagine Brexit to be. The voters will see a British economy in 2029 which will be in a far worse state than it is now. So who will be to blame?

"Labour have destroyed the economy because we haven't got the right Brexit" will be the narrative.

Then Starmer gets voted out if he's still PM by then and then the whole cycle starts over again.
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It survives because it has to do, whatever it takes, Starmer has to make sure he takes the majority with him and regularly listens to them. He will no doubt continue to try to build bridges, with the EU, but he has to start at home with the component parts of the UK, in Scotland, NI and possibly Wales as well, a lot of 'housekeeping' in that respect has to get done, and it will get done if Starmer has the right plans... we don't know yet!

The route to making it work will undoubtedly be a 'biggy' for Starmer, but if he doesn't come up with the right one and one that takes the majority with him, then yes against all odds the Tories will rise from the ashes and use the right wing press to hit Starmer over the head and nobble the government.

The thing is Paul we are out of the EU and we are not going back anytime soon, personally I don't think we ever shall, not in terms of the political aspects. Starmer should get a clean sheet to work on; all problems, except climate change, can be laid at the Tory's door especially since they have been in power for so long. The secret will be to look forward, "the past is another country" or so they say, Starmer has to raise everyone's eyes to the future, brexit, covid, etc. will all become 'old excuses' with the younger generations are tired of hearing about, more concerned about where we are heading rather than where we have been.

If Starmer gets this right with a large majority to back him, he could be the longest serving PM ever!
 
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Maticmaker said:
It survives because it has to do, whatever it takes, Starmer has to make sure he takes the majority with him and regularly listens to them. He will no doubt continue to try to build bridges, with the EU, but he has to start at home with the component parts of the UK, in Scotland, NI and possibly Wales as well, a lot of 'housekeeping' in that respect has to get done, and it will get done if Starmer has the right plans... we don't know yet!

The route to making it work will undoubtedly be a 'biggy' for Starmer, but if he doesn't come up with the right one and one that takes the majority with him, then yes against all odds the Tories will rise from the ashes and use the right wing press to hit Starmer over the head and nobble the government.

The thing is Paul we are out of the EU and we are not going back anytime soon, personally I don't think we ever shall, not in terms of the political aspects. Starmer should get a clean sheet to work on; all problems, except climate change, can be laid at the Tory's door especially since they have been in power for so long. The secret will be to look forward, "the past is another country" or so they say, Starmer has to raise everyone's eyes to the future, brexit, covid, etc. will all become 'old excuses' with the younger generations are tired of hearing about, more concerned about where we are heading rather than where we have been.

If Starmer gets this right with a large majority to back him, he could be the longest serving PM ever!
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The problem is that and after seven years or so of watching Starmer, he quite clearly doesn't understand the problem. If you don't understand the problem you can't fix the problem.

A large section of the country including Starmer has been brainwashed into thinking that trade with old Commonwealth countries and growing economies will replace the trade with EU. Until Starmer and the public understands that this will never be the case in any foreseeable timeframe. Probably within a five year timespan or even much less they will all have realised that they've been sold a pup yet again. Not happening.

Now what?

PS This is how Starmer thinks he's going to make Brexit work. (well his latest version)

It reads like a 12 year old's school project who doesn't understand what he's been taught in the lesson.
https://labour.org.uk/press/keir-starmer-sets-out-labours-5-point-plan-to-make-brexit-work/#:~:text=Setting%20out%20Britain's%20relationship%20with,to%20create%20short%20term%20fixes.


Don't forget his earlier Norway type deal , then his 2017 insistence of staying in the CU and SM and best of all when he would only accept a deal where the Uk would get the same benefits inside the EU or outside the EU. Totally clueless is being generous.
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
The problem is that and after seven years or so of watching Starmer, he quite clearly doesn't understand the problem. If you don't understand the problem you can't fix the problem.

A large section of the country including Starmer has been brainwashed into thinking that trade with old Commonwealth countries and growing economies will replace the trade with EU. Until Starmer and the public understands that this will never be the case in any foreseeable timeframe. Probably within a five year timespan or even much less they will all have realised that they've been sold a pup yet again. Not happening.

Now what?

PS This is how Starmer thinks he's going to make Brexit work. (well his latest version)

It reads like a 12 year old's school project who doesn't understand what he's been taught in the lesson. work
https://labour.org.uk/press/keir-starmer-sets-out-labours-5-point-plan-to-make-brexit-work/#:~:text=Setting%20out%20Britain's%20relationship%20with,to%20create%20short%20term%20fixes.


Don't forget his earlier Norway type deal , then his 2017 insistence of staying in the CU and SM and best of all when he would only accept a deal where the Uk would get the same benefits inside the EU or outside the EU. Totally clueless is being generous.
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Seven years watching Starmer as what? Leader of the opposition?

Starmer understands the problem perhaps only too well, and in particular that keep trying to turn the pages back doesn't work. He does know that people want to know what's coming and he is attempting to set out a programme that will get Labour elected. The outline is deliberately vague at this stage for obvious reasons... 'keeping your powder dry' is the expression, until the date for the next GE is announced.

I don't know who you've been talking to in the UK about commonwealth trade, I haven't heard anybody here in the UK expecting that any trade we do pick up with commonwealth countries will be the same value as with the EU.... oh yes, sorry, that is except for a lot of Tory Ministers hoping to keep a flicker of hope alive for the GE, that is along with 'stopping the small boats', etc. Rishi's wish list writ large!

The thing about 'brexit', the result that is, was that in reality people voted for change, at least enough of them to win the referendum. Change is what they are going to get, and like all change even those who will benefit from it oppose it at the beginning, and those that welcome it, are often disappointed in how it turns out.

I do agree with you that Starmer should stop referring to making brexit work, it will be 10 years or so ago (by the time of the next GE), and brexit (by definition) has worked, the UK is out of the EU! Starmer should, and is now, be talking about the future which isn't all about trade, it's about a new social contract with the vast majority of the UK public behind it... there will always be some on the extremes who will disagree!
This will include; trade, climate change, migration management, water and energy sourcing, and things as yet we don't know about. e.g. perhaps the future of the UK itself as a group of islands off the NNW coast of Europe!!!

The earlier deals, the Norway one included, never saw the light of day, so not really sure why are these of relevance now?
 
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Maticmaker said:
Seven years watching Starmer as what? Leader of the opposition?

Starmer understands the problem perhaps only too well, and in particular that keep trying to turn the pages back doesn't work. He does know that people want to know what's coming and he is attempting to set out a programme that will get Labour elected. The outline is deliberately vague at this stage for obvious reasons... 'keeping your powder dry' is the expression, until the date for the next GE is announced.

I don't know who you've been talking to in the UK about commonwealth trade, I haven't heard anybody here in the UK expecting that any trade we do pick up with commonwealth countries will be the same value as with the EU.... oh yes, sorry, that is except for a lot of Tory Ministers hoping to keep a flicker of hope alive for the GE, that is along with 'stopping the small boats', etc. Rishi's wish list writ large!

The thing about 'brexit', the result that is, was that in reality people voted for change, at least enough of them to win the referendum. Change is what they are going to get, and like all change even those who will benefit from it oppose it at the beginning, and those that welcome it, are often disappointed in how it turns out.

I do agree with you that Starmer should stop referring to making brexit work, it will be 10 years or so ago (by the time of the next GE), and brexit (by definition) has worked, the UK is out of the EU! Starmer should, and is now, be talking about the future which isn't all about trade, it's about a new social contract with the vast majority of the UK public behind it... there will always be some on the extremes who will disagree!
This will include; trade, climate change, migration management, water and energy sourcing, and things as yet we don't know about. e.g. perhaps the future of the UK itself as a group of islands off the NNW coast of Europe!!!

The earlier deals, the Norway one included, never saw the light of day, so not really why are these of relevance now?
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I'm referring to Starmer in relation to Brexit. There are plenty of Labour supporters who dislike him for many other reasons. After all Corbyn appointed him after the referendum to deal with it in a shadow capacity, Probably a shrewd move by Corbyn appointing someone who knew nothing about the EU, trade or anything related. Being anti-Eu that he was.

It's not just the Tories, both parties and the whole press is waiting for the global opportunities that brexit has presented the Uk with. Quote "Labour will embrace global trade outside of the EU. Labour wants Britain to lead the way in developing a new global trade approach that puts people, communities, rights, and standards at its very heart."

The global approach - its really shows the intelligence of Brexit voters in Britain.

What they fail to tell you is that the UK were already trading with these countries, this has been said a thousand times but nobody takes any notice. There are no global opportunites. Whatever products these countries want to buy from Britain, they already do buy. India being a current topic. India buy 70% of all the whisky they import globally from the UK already. So to steal the other 30% of the market worth peanuts from other countries will do what?

They're celebrating AUKUS which actually means Australia buying American submarines in 20 years time.

The Uk, the press, the political parties talk as if the Uk have never traded with anyone else other than the EU since they joined in 1973. The problem is that they want to go back to 1953 to a world that no longer exists. When Britain started sinking and desperately tried to join the EC.

These countries don't need the UK, they all belong to various trade blocs; Any little extras the Uk can gain from selling a little bit here and there is just cosmetic. The EU have done a better deal than the Uk with NZ but although it's hugely better than the NZ/UK deal it's still only a small bonus worth comparatively little.

There's a whole trade bloc on the UK's doorstep with a market that was willing to buy UK products but no they'd rather sell the odd trinket thousands of miles way.
Eventually they will learn. They just want to do it the hard way.

So, having destroyed the economy how will Starmer finance what he intends to do? Tax the rich?
 
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