Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Maticmaker]

I'm referring to Starmer in relation to Brexit. There are plenty of Labour supporters who dislike him for many other reasons. After all Corbyn appointed him after the referendum to deal with it in a shadow capacity, Probably a shrewd move by Corbyn appointing someone who knew nothing about the EU, trade or anything related. Being anti-Eu that he was.

It's not just the Tories, both parties and the whole press is waiting for the global opportunities that brexit has presented the Uk with. Quote "Labour will embrace global trade outside of the EU. Labour wants Britain to lead the way in developing a new global trade approach that puts people, communities, rights, and standards at its very heart."

The global approach - its really shows the intelligence of Brexit voters in Britain.

What they fail to tell you is that the UK were already trading with these countries, this has been said a thousand times but nobody takes any notice. There are no global opportunites. Whatever products these countries want to buy from Britain, they already do buy. India being a current topic. India buy 70% of all the whisky they import globally from the UK already. So to steal the other 30% of the market worth peanuts from other countries will do what?

They're celebrating AUKUS which actually means Australia buying American submarines in 20 years time.

The Uk, the press, the political parties talk as if the Uk have never traded with anyone else other than the EU since they joined in 1973. The problem is that they want to go back to 1953 to a world that no longer exists. When Britain started sinking and desperately tried to join the EC.

These countries don't need the UK, they all belong to various trade blocs; Any little extras the Uk can gain from selling a little bit here and there is just cosmetic. The EU have done a better deal than the Uk with NZ but although it's hugely better than the NZ/UK deal it's still only a small bonus worth comparatively little.

There's a whole trade bloc on the UK's doorstep with a market that was willing to buy UK products but no they'd rather sell the odd trinket thousands of miles way.
Eventually they will learn. They just want to do it the hard way.

So, having destroyed the economy how will Starmer finance what he intends to do? Tax the rich?

Yes I understood you were referring to Starmer in terms of brexit, but he wasn't even the leader then and was left by the anti-EU Corbyn to try to carry the red wall vote by pretending things could be different, 'Chalices' don't come anymore poisoned that that one. Starmer was carrying the can for Corbyn in more ways than one, except for the dedicated momentum group no body in the real world had expected Corbyn to succeed even when his original plans involved things most Labour people could accept. Corbyn subsequently offered everything under the sun which meant in vote terms he gave the Tories a massive majority, and the rest of us Boris. Starmer to have survived at all and then to go on to become the new Labour leader was little short of a miracle in itself.

Starmer is a not a trade centred leader, that's true; but there again Labour isn't really a trade centred party. The Labour people, the ones who voted for brexit, didn't want more of the same, and they wont get it. Labour under Starmer will have to turn itself into a wide ranging 'broad church', to use Tony Blair's famous comparison, he wanted 'everyone within the tent'. In economic terms the UK will have to revisit and or start new endeavors in other areas to make money, at the same time Starmer will try to 'roll together with the EU', but not as part of it. Maybe he will be successful, no one knows for sure; if he gets it right with a social contract, anything is possible, but there is no return ticket; how do we know, because the EU has told us so, many times in the last few years and continues to do so?.

Going back to 1953, don't you mean going back to 2016?
Going forward is necessary, not backwards, or even therefore to try to keep running alongside a bus (the EU) who isn't actually going in the direction we want, (further political integration) who will not stop to let us get onboard, not unless we wear 'sack clothe and ashes 'and change our currency (no Sterling next time around), who will offer no 'opt outs' next time (if there is one), is a bit pointless. True we will still avail ourselves of the ECHR, the space agency stuff and one or two other things, even though we might now be paying through the nose, the difference will be its our choice, to get it wrong, as well as hopefully get it right.
However as you point out perhaps the EU block will still be there, as a back stop shall we say, at least there will be no more dismantling of the EU influences under Starmer's Labour.

We must all be aware the world/globe is changing at a rate of knots, to survive is to look to the future and not be hobbled with things from the past, everything virtually is up for grabs in the next few decades, this is what makes going back to a different world impossible.The biggest single lesson for the world to learn is perhaps that 'consumerism' is now doomed, build to last, recycle, reverse engineer for solutions, etc., are all coming true and not likely to go down well with the 'movers and shakers' who influence a lot of EU policy.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes I understood you were referring to Starmer in terms of brexit, but he wasn't even the leader then and was left by the anti-EU Corbyn to try to carry the red wall vote by pretending things could be different, 'Chalices' don't come anymore poisoned that that one. Starmer was carrying the can for Corbyn in more ways than one, except for the dedicated momentum group no body in the real world had expected Corbyn to succeed even when his original plans involved things most Labour people could accept. Corbyn subsequently offered everything under the sun which meant in vote terms he gave the Tories a massive majority, and the rest of us Boris. Starmer to have survived at all and then to go on to become the new Labour leader was little short of a miracle in itself.

Starmer is a not a trade centred leader, that's true; but there again Labour isn't really a trade centred party. The Labour people, the ones who voted for brexit, didn't want more of the same, and they wont get it. Labour under Starmer will have to turn itself into a wide ranging 'broad church', to use Tony Blair's famous comparison, he wanted 'everyone within the tent'. In economic terms the UK will have to revisit and or start new endeavors in other areas to make money, at the same time Starmer will try to 'roll together with the EU', but not as part of it. Maybe he will be successful, no one knows for sure; if he gets it right with a social contract, anything is possible, but there is no return ticket; how do we know, because the EU has told us so, many times in the last few years and continues to do so?.

Going back to 1953, don't you mean going back to 2016?
Going forward is necessary, not backwards, or even therefore to try to keep running alongside a bus (the EU) who isn't actually going in the direction we want, (further political integration) who will not stop to let us get onboard, not unless we wear 'sack clothe and ashes 'and change our currency (no Sterling next time around), who will offer no 'opt outs' next time (if there is one), is a bit pointless. True we will still avail ourselves of the ECHR, the space agency stuff and one or two other things, even though we might now be paying through the nose, the difference will be its our choice, to get it wrong, as well as hopefully get it right.
However as you point out perhaps the EU block will still be there, as a back stop shall we say, at least there will be no more dismantling of the EU influences under Starmer's Labour.

We must all be aware the world/globe is changing at a rate of knots, to survive is to look to the future and not be hobbled with things from the past, everything virtually is up for grabs in the next few decades, this is what makes going back to a different world impossible.The biggest single lesson for the world to learn is perhaps that 'consumerism' is now doomed, build to last, recycle, reverse engineer for solutions, etc., are all coming true and not likely to go down well with the 'movers and shakers' who influence a lot of EU policy.

No in 2016 the Uk was doing fine with barrierless trade. In 1953 the Empire was crumbling and the UK was starting to go down the tube , hence trying to join the EC and in 1960 they helped form EFTA as a stop-gap alternative to the EC. But that wasn't enough to stop the Uk becoming the sick man of Europe. Eventually it recovered.

Whether the Labour party is trade centred or not. Over half of the UK' s trade earnings come from sales to the EU. This will diminish over time if the barriers that Starmer doesn't want to lower remain. This will speed up as the real Brexit with no grace periods, exemptions etc happens over the next few years. The slow death of the British Economy. No it's not Project Fear.

The EU will buy less and less from the UK because of all the hassle. Very difficult to buy British items even now which were freely available a few years ago.

The UK has to replace the EU sales with something but there isn't anything to replace it - other than what is in the deluded minds of Brexiters. Not in the Far East , not in the USA, not in the Commonwealth. A further shock will come to those who dare venture to switch their market to other places in the world if they can find a buyer. The amount of red tape - the EU is a doddle.

For some reason it is impossible to impress the gravity of this. Starmer's just going to carry on, ignoring reality and everything will miraculously turn out fine for no apparent reason.

 

[Maticmaker]

No in 2016 the Uk was doing fine with barrierless trade. In 1953 the Empire was crumbling and the UK was starting to go down the tube , hence trying to join the EC and in 1960 they helped form EFTA as a stop-gap alternative to the EC. But that wasn't enough to stop the Uk becoming the sick man of Europe. Eventually it recovered.

Whether the Labour party is trade centred or not. Over half of the UK' s trade earnings come from sales to the EU. This will diminish over time if the barriers that Starmer doesn't want to lower remain. This will speed up as the real Brexit with no grace periods, exemptions etc happens over the next few years. The slow death of the British Economy. No it's not Project Fear.

The EU will buy less and less from the UK because of all the hassle. Very difficult to buy British items even now which were freely available a few years ago.

The UK has to replace the EU sales with something but there isn't anything to replace it - other than what is in the deluded minds of Brexiters. Not in the Far East , not in the USA, not in the Commonwealth. A further shock will come to those who dare venture to switch their market to other places in the world if they can find a buyer. The amount of red tape - the EU is a doddle.

For some reason it is impossible to impress the gravity of this. Starmer's just going to carry on, ignoring reality and everything will miraculously turn out fine for no apparent reason.

Not disputing any of this first paragraph, but the fact remains, (excuse the pun) going back in time is only possible for Dr Who!

I suspect Starmer will seek to remove what ever barriers he can, but its not his main test, changing the basis of the UK economy, maybe even the whole of the UK itself, this will be the sterner test.

The 'gravity' has already had some effect, but 'rinse and repeat' is not going to save the economy, it has to change to face the future... true this is a 'biggy' for Starmer, it won't be achieved over night (or many nights) he will need two terms at least to show it can be done. That's why he needs a large majority at Westminster after the next GE. I suspect he is the only person around who can pull it off.
If he doesn't get the large majority, then its "everyone for the small boats", women and children first!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Not disputing any of this first paragraph, but the fact remains, (excuse the pun) going back in time is only possible for Dr Who!

I suspect Starmer will seek to remove what ever barriers he can, but its not his main test, changing the basis of the UK economy, maybe even the whole of the UK itself, this will be the sterner test.

The 'gravity' has already had some effect, but 'rinse and repeat' is not going to save the economy, it has to change to face the future... true this is a 'biggy' for Starmer, it won't be achieved over night (or many nights) he will need two terms at least to show it can be done. That's why he needs a large majority at Westminster after the next GE. I suspect he is the only person around who can pull it off.
If he doesn't get the large majority, then its "everyone for the small boats", women and children first!

I'm not getting through.

The barriers are the CU and the SM and the acceptance of the 4 freedoms. There's no magic wand. He's categorially said this is not an option. What will he do with his majority? Even if he had 100% of the seats in parliament. How does that help the UK in relation to not going slowly bankrupt?

Or is he planning to set sail off to the middle of the ocean and cut the UK off from the rest of the world and become 100% self sufficient.

He's still with the unicorns then. Or as I said all along, he does not understand how the EU works, how trade works or what the consequences of the Brexit vote are. Time for sleeping is over.

 

[TheGame]

 

[Jippy]

Is he Sir Michael Take's mate?

 

[Buster15]

No in 2016 the Uk was doing fine with barrierless trade. In 1953 the Empire was crumbling and the UK was starting to go down the tube , hence trying to join the EC and in 1960 they helped form EFTA as a stop-gap alternative to the EC. But that wasn't enough to stop the Uk becoming the sick man of Europe. Eventually it recovered.

Whether the Labour party is trade centred or not. Over half of the UK' s trade earnings come from sales to the EU. This will diminish over time if the barriers that Starmer doesn't want to lower remain. This will speed up as the real Brexit with no grace periods, exemptions etc happens over the next few years. The slow death of the British Economy. No it's not Project Fear.

The EU will buy less and less from the UK because of all the hassle. Very difficult to buy British items even now which were freely available a few years ago.

The UK has to replace the EU sales with something but there isn't anything to replace it - other than what is in the deluded minds of Brexiters. Not in the Far East , not in the USA, not in the Commonwealth. A further shock will come to those who dare venture to switch their market to other places in the world if they can find a buyer. The amount of red tape - the EU is a doddle.

For some reason it is impossible to impress the gravity of this. Starmer's just going to carry on, ignoring reality and everything will miraculously turn out fine for no apparent reason.

Totally agree with your last paragraph about the gravity of the situation post Brexit.
I have no idea what Starmer really thinks and I am not sure he does either.
We keep being told how resilient (latest buzz word) the UK economy is. But the reality is that while it may possibly avoid going into resession, it is certainly not growing.
There are so many problems facing the UK, many due to Brexit, you get the impression that any future government will spend most of its time firefighting.
And that is the nub of the problem.
A series of tactical decisions with no real strategy for the future, other than...we need to grow the economy, but no real strategy as to the How.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Totally agree with your last paragraph about the gravity of the situation post Brexit.
I have no idea what Starmer really thinks and I am not sure he does either.
We keep being told how resilient (latest buzz word) the UK economy is. But the reality is that while it may possibly avoid going into resession, it is certainly not growing.
There are so many problems facing the UK, many due to Brexit, you get the impression that any future government will spend most of its time firefighting.
And that is the nub of the problem.
A series of tactical decisions with no real strategy for the future, other than...we need to grow the economy, but no real strategy as to the How.

Exactly, Labour say they're not borrowing or raising taxes so how do they finance anything.

They need businesses to flourish but to do that they have to be able to compete without pointless barriers and have someone who wants to buy their products. And that is only the basic surface problems. The technical problems like certification, legal aspects etc are not even mentioned

Reading what Starmer writes and listening to him and his cohorts, it's clear they have no idea what they're doing. He says 'world-leading' even more times than the Tories.

The UK may get rid of the lying charlatans and incompetents, if they're lucky, if they vote out the Tories and Starmer doesn't blow it, but what's the future? Labour may be less evil than the Tories but they seem equally as incompetent, or rather very naïve.

I read his plan to make Brexit work and he clearly has no idea what he is doing. I know it was written beforehand but the NI protocol is sorted and if it isn't the UK is in deep trouble. The research Horizon programme has been sorted. But even this is misrepresented in the press. There are plenty of non-EU states who are associate members like Israel and Turkey. The Uk were excluded because of the NIP and will be excluded again if they break it or leave the ECHR. It's not a step to rejoin the EU.

"Labour will embrace global trade outside of the EU. Labour wants Britain to lead the way in developing a new global trade approach that puts people, communities, rights, and standards at its very heart" - this phrase gets my goat - what does it even mean - because he believes that Britain doesn't trade with that outside world or that Britain is going to lead the way being the first country who ever thought of trading with another country.

Does Starmer think that if he gets in power, everyone will forget the Brexit problems? The problems will multiply during his first term in office. If he doesn't understand the consequences of Brexit he'll sink within two or three years. It's not going away.

What a bleak future.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Sounds like a nice bloke:

Spoiler: Sounds like a nice bloke

In the previous year Proctor, then working as a researcher for anti-Common Market Conservative MPs who tried to stop Britain entering the European Communities (EC), had been adopted as candidate for Hackney South and Shoreditch. He fought the seat at both the February and October general elections of 1974

Proctor won the selection for Basildon in 1978. The seat was not expected to be easy for the Conservatives to win, but Proctor was elected in the 1979 election after a campaign in which he argued in favour of restricting the number of "coloured" immigrants. He returned to this theme, also advocating payment for repatriation, during his first term in Parliament.

In June 1986, The People newspaper published claims that Proctor had taken part in sexual relationships with male prostitutes aged between 17 and 21, in his London flat in exchange for money, and took indecent photos of them with a Polaroid camera. The age of consent for same-sex relationships was still 21 in 1986 (although 16 for opposite sex relationships), no specific legislation existed at the time regarding minimum ages for prostitution and the following year Proctor was charged with gross indecency and resigned his candidature. He was succeeded as MP by Teresa Gorman at the general election. At his trial in May 1987, Proctor pleaded guilty to four acts of gross indecency with a 17-year-old boy and a 19-year-old man and was fined a total of £1,450.

On 4 March 2015, Proctor's home, on the Belvoir estate, was searched by the Metropolitan Police as part of the Operation Midland investigation into allegations of historical child sexual abuse and related homicides. Proctor denied any wrongdoing in an interview with the Today programme.[11] He retired from his job with the Duke and Duchess of Rutland on 25 March 2015, "with immediate effect"

 

[Buster15]

Exactly, Labour say they're not borrowing or raising taxes so how do they finance anything.

They need businesses to flourish but to do that they have to be able to compete without pointless barriers and have someone who wants to buy their products. And that is only the basic surface problems. The technical problems like certification, legal aspects etc are not even mentioned

Reading what Starmer writes and listening to him and his cohorts, it's clear they have no idea what they're doing. He says 'world-leading' even more times than the Tories.

The UK may get rid of the lying charlatans and incompetents, if they're lucky, if they vote out the Tories and Starmer doesn't blow it, but what's the future? Labour may be less evil than the Tories but they seem equally as incompetent, or rather very naïve.

I read his plan to make Brexit work and he clearly has no idea what he is doing. I know it was written beforehand but the NI protocol is sorted and if it isn't the UK is in deep trouble. The research Horizon programme has been sorted. But even this is misrepresented in the press. There are plenty of non-EU states who are associate members like Israel and Turkey. The Uk were excluded because of the NIP and will be excluded again if they break it or leave the ECHR. It's not a step to rejoin the EU.

"Labour will embrace global trade outside of the EU. Labour wants Britain to lead the way in developing a new global trade approach that puts people, communities, rights, and standards at its very heart" - this phrase gets my goat - what does it even mean - because he believes that Britain doesn't trade with that outside world or that Britain is going to lead the way being the first country who ever thought of trading with another country.

Does Starmer think that if he gets in power, everyone will forget the Brexit problems? The problems will multiply during his first term in office. If he doesn't understand the consequences of Brexit he'll sink within two or three years. It's not going away.

What a bleak future.

I am an eternal optimist and am therefore hopeful of a less bleak future for me and my family. Things can not be as bad as the last few years. Very much doubt we will have a repeat of the Tories 5 PM's in 6 years.
The best we can hope for is a period of stability.
But whoever gets in after the next GE, the fundamental issues will still be there.
And problems will hit us like waves in a storm. Same for many other countries incidentally.

The EU may not be perfect. But it is better inside than outside. And I have yet to see anything remotely beneficial now we are out. Being granted associate membership of the Horizon Programme was significant and shows what can be done with the right mindset.

 

[JPRouve]

To be fair there seems to be more EU flags in the UK than in the actual EU.

 

[Maticmaker]

I'm not getting through.

The barriers are the CU and the SM and the acceptance of the 4 freedoms. There's no magic wand. He's categorially said this is not an option. What will he do with his majority? Even if he had 100% of the seats in parliament. How does that help the UK in relation to not going slowly bankrupt?

Or is he planning to set sail off to the middle of the ocean and cut the UK off from the rest of the world and become 100% self sufficient.

He's still with the unicorns then. Or as I said all along, he does not understand how the EU works, how trade works or what the consequences of the Brexit vote are. Time for sleeping is over.

Think its me not getting through to you Paul!

Your world Paul seems to exist around the EU, (you live there and that's accepted) but the UK's world doesn't anymore, you could argue we had our chance and fluffed it... that would not be unfair in many people's eyes!

It's true that Brexit was never envisaged to be like this, by many who voted for it, but as the old saying goes .." if I were you I wouldn't start from here..." but here is where we are. The 'milk has been spilled' and there is no getting it back into the bottle or going back, as much as anything because the EU doesn't want us back, that's the bottom line.

Why should they? Yes, we were at best a significant contributor in terms of finance, but we were 'an awkward squad' customer/member, always wanting 'opt outs' or rebates or some such thing, not wanting further political integration, wanting to hold on to the pound sterling and going mad about straight bananas and ... we had dozens of MEP's like Farage, if that was not a good enough reason to get rid of us what was?
This is crux of it, all the above were the desires or aims of the political classes in the UK, who after the referendum to join, never once asked, or referred to the general public in the UK about any of the treaty's or major amendments to the EU's constitution.... (could it have been because the UK doesn't have a written constitution .... hm?) which were subsequently agreed in the EU and became part of UK law as well.

So, we've got the message Paul, yes we would like to trade up more with the EU, but as you say 'rules is rules' and we cannot accept them, the EU cannot change them.....so its goodnight Vienna! Its true many traders in the UK would like a less costly way to trade with the EU, like they had before, but that's not going to happen is it? So Starmer, or whoever, has to plan a course that might indeed look towards self sufficiency, but this would only be in the sense of as it were, achieving the promised land or searching for the Holy Grail, or indeed in some peoples eyes still searching for Unicorns.... (that last bit should go down well with you Paul.)

It any event it will be a struggle and as I've mentioned in previous posts it will need significant change here in the UK. Starmer, has to come up with a social contract that promises that government will put its people, i.e specifically the majority, those who keep the wheels turning in the UK, in the Van.
The UK will solider on, as it always has, trying to make up for its mistakes and bringing out the best in its peoples, what it won't do Paul is run along behind the EU trying to second guess its intentions.. that ship has sailed!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Think its me not getting through to you Paul!

Your world Paul seems to exist around the EU, (you live there and that's accepted) but the UK's world doesn't anymore, you could argue we had our chance and fluffed it... that would not be unfair in many people's eyes!

It's true that Brexit was never envisaged to be like this, by many who voted for it, but as the old saying goes .." if I were you I wouldn't start from here..." but here is where we are. The 'milk has been spilled' and there is no getting it back into the bottle or going back, as much as anything because the EU doesn't want us back, that's the bottom line.

Why should they? Yes, we were at best a significant contributor in terms of finance, but we were 'an awkward squad' customer/member, always wanting 'opt outs' or rebates or some such thing, not wanting further political integration, wanting to hold on to the pound sterling and going mad about straight bananas and ... we had dozens of MEP's like Farage, if that was not a good enough reason to get rid of us what was?
This is crux of it, all the above were the desires or aims of the political classes in the UK, who after the referendum to join, never once asked, or referred to the general public in the UK about any of the treaty's or major amendments to the EU's constitution.... (could it have been because the UK doesn't have a written constitution .... hm?) which were subsequently agreed in the EU and became part of UK law as well.

So, we've got the message Paul, yes we would like to trade up more with the EU, but as you say 'rules is rules' and we cannot accept them, the EU cannot change them.....so its goodnight Vienna! Its true many traders in the UK would like a less costly way to trade with the EU, like they had before, but that's not going to happen is it? So Starmer, or whoever, has to plan a course that might indeed look towards self sufficiency, but this would only be in the sense of as it were, achieving the promised land or searching for the Holy Grail, or indeed in some peoples eyes still searching for Unicorns.... (that last bit should go down well with you Paul.)

It any event it will be a struggle and as I've mentioned in previous posts it will need significant change here in the UK. Starmer, has to come up with a social contract that promises that government will put its people, i.e specifically the majority, those who keep the wheels turning in the UK, in the Van.
The UK will solider on, as it always has, trying to make up for its mistakes and bringing out the best in its peoples, what it won't do Paul is run along behind the EU trying to second guess its intentions.. that ship has sailed!

No, you don't get what I'm getting at. People have tried to explain in so many ways but it falls on deaf ears and gradually each part of the 'Project Fear' turns out to be reality. Brexiters will realise what it is by the end of this decade, probably well before.

You still believe the narrative in the Uk press about the evil mysterious being controlling the UK. But as I said the UK will have to learn the hard way. By the way as i've said earlier, you are contributing more now than when the UK was in the EU, don't think that registered. What!

Starmer's domestic policy has no bearing on whether it is inside the EU or not. Every country has their own domestic policy.

The Brexit that was voted for is the one you have, there are no surprises, there is no other Brexit other than over the next few years when the full Brexit, which was voted for, has been implemented, it will be worse, guaranteed. If that's what you want it's your choice. It may not be the Brexit people were expecting and there were so many variations in people's mind. But there only ever was one Brexit.

You will see what I'm getting at.... eventually.

 

[TheGame]

Is he Sir Michael Take's mate?

Amazingly it's not a parody, you really can't believe it.

 

[TheGame]

Right wing Brexiteers moaning and groaning when free speech for people to display whatever fecking flag doesn't go their way, the absolute irony. Also has someone told them where a lot of the music which is played was originally composed?

 

[Jippy]

Amazingly it's not a parody, you really can't believe it.

Sir Michael Take was also outraged. Linkerists

 

[TheGame]

 

[TheGame]

Sir Michael Take was also outraged. Linkerists

Amazingly you can imagine despite being a parody how he actually represents what these right wing nutters think like.

 

[TheGame]

 

[Buster15]

Think its me not getting through to you Paul!

Your world Paul seems to exist around the EU, (you live there and that's accepted) but the UK's world doesn't anymore, you could argue we had our chance and fluffed it... that would not be unfair in many people's eyes!

It's true that Brexit was never envisaged to be like this, by many who voted for it, but as the old saying goes .." if I were you I wouldn't start from here..." but here is where we are. The 'milk has been spilled' and there is no getting it back into the bottle or going back, as much as anything because the EU doesn't want us back, that's the bottom line.

Why should they? Yes, we were at best a significant contributor in terms of finance, but we were 'an awkward squad' customer/member, always wanting 'opt outs' or rebates or some such thing, not wanting further political integration, wanting to hold on to the pound sterling and going mad about straight bananas and ... we had dozens of MEP's like Farage, if that was not a good enough reason to get rid of us what was?
This is crux of it, all the above were the desires or aims of the political classes in the UK, who after the referendum to join, never once asked, or referred to the general public in the UK about any of the treaty's or major amendments to the EU's constitution.... (could it have been because the UK doesn't have a written constitution .... hm?) which were subsequently agreed in the EU and became part of UK law as well.

So, we've got the message Paul, yes we would like to trade up more with the EU, but as you say 'rules is rules' and we cannot accept them, the EU cannot change them.....so its goodnight Vienna! Its true many traders in the UK would like a less costly way to trade with the EU, like they had before, but that's not going to happen is it? So Starmer, or whoever, has to plan a course that might indeed look towards self sufficiency, but this would only be in the sense of as it were, achieving the promised land or searching for the Holy Grail, or indeed in some peoples eyes still searching for Unicorns.... (that last bit should go down well with you Paul.)

It any event it will be a struggle and as I've mentioned in previous posts it will need significant change here in the UK. Starmer, has to come up with a social contract that promises that government will put its people, i.e specifically the majority, those who keep the wheels turning in the UK, in the Van.
The UK will solider on, as it always has, trying to make up for its mistakes and bringing out the best in its peoples, what it won't do Paul is run along behind the EU trying to second guess its intentions.. that ship has sailed!

Lot's of flowery words here and I think I understand your basic message.
But remember, Paul lives in France, not the EU.
You are right that the UK has to solder on, on the outside. The outside of everything at the moment because we are not part of any trading block.
And essentially that is what people voted for. The typical UK stance of... nobody is going to tell me what to do. But in reality there is always someone who is going to tell you what to do, we just don't like to admit it.

There has been a few notable signs of progress, particularly in the motor manufacturing sector.
Stellantis has commenced production of electric vans from the Ellesmere Port facilities for all of its European brands. BMW has committed to spend hundreds of millions on new electric Mini production in the UK. And there is to be a new electric battery facility in Somerset for TATA Jaguar.
All of these of course will huge government subsidies. And currently 85% of UK motor output is exported.

But yes these are just very small steps forward and will in no way paper over the cracks of Brexit.
It is what it is. Self inflicted disaster. How much of a disaster is up to us.

 

[Maticmaker]

No, you don't get what I'm getting at. People have tried to explain in so many ways but it falls on deaf ears and gradually each part of the 'Project Fear' turns out to be reality. Brexiters will realise what it is by the end of this decade, probably well before.

You still believe the narrative in the Uk press about the evil mysterious being controlling the UK. But as I said the UK will have to learn the hard way. By the way as i've said earlier, you are contributing more now than when the UK was in the EU, don't think that registered. What!

Starmer's domestic policy has no bearing on whether it is inside the EU or not. Every country has their own domestic policy.

The Brexit that was voted for is the one you have, there are no surprises, there is no other Brexit other than over the next few years when the full Brexit, which was voted for, has been implemented, it will be worse, guaranteed. If that's what you want it's your choice. It may not be the Brexit people were expecting and there were so many variations in people's mind. But there only ever was one Brexit.

You will see what I'm getting at.... eventually.

Yes, I do Paul, you are screaming at a UK which has had a 'Humpty-Dumpty' type experience, to pull itself together and to get back on the wall...... for its own good!

'Evil mysterious being', where has that come from? If you are referring to the political aspects of the EU, rather than the trading aspects of a common market, then perhaps I understand your comparison. Over the years EU has been used by the UK press and let's not forget by many UK politicians, when it suited, as a 'bogey-man'. It is however the fault of a least a generation of UK politicians (left and right) that this concept took hold; the EU was never sold positively in the UK by anybody except maybe a small group, who were shouted down anyway. It suited UK politicians to regularly lambaste the EU, and in certain issues like 'closer political integration', certain issues on defense, at times agriculture, they were right, but on most other issues they were not.

As for domestic policy, yes each country does have its own, and now the UK is outside the EU the UK politicians have the capability to be wrong, as well as right and nothing to hide behind despite the right wing press attempts to cultivate these 'EU bogey-man' issues. So you are right Starmer's policy will be on establishing a social contract with the public, which will be aimed at domestic issues and it will include trade issues but alongside social issues, the two being linked.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I do think issues on independence for Scotland, possible moves that envisages unification in Ireland, will have to be addressed positively in some form as part of this social contract; a new version of the UK emerging, possibly even with its own written constitution (these aspects maybe be classified as part of the 'search for the holy grail')

We do have the Brexit that was voted for, the UK is no longer part of the EU. 'Project Fear' raised during the referendum did no good then and continuing with its curse, will not do any good now in changing peoples minds. The world has moved on an so will this country, for better or for worse the die is cast.

 

[RedSky]

The UK doesn't need to soldier on at all. That's just absurdly stubborn. What we could realistically do is be humble as a country, recognise that Brexit has been a castrophic failure and reapply to join the EU.

I know its a pretty wild suggestion.

 

[JPRouve]

The UK doesn't need to soldier on at all. That's just absurdly stubborn. What we could realistically do is be humble as a country, recognise that Brexit has been a castrophic failure and reapply to join the EU.

I know its a pretty wild suggestion.

Rejoining the EU will be difficult due to the level of integration that would be required unless an exception was made which brings us back to the source of the problem. Joining EFTA on terms that suits its member seems more reasonable, it's not as good as being a full member of the EU but it's far better than the current context.

 

[RedSky]

Rejoining the EU will be difficult due to the level of integration that would be required unless an exception was made which brings us back to the source of the problem. Joining EFTA on terms that suits its member seems more reasonable, it's not as good as being a full member of the EU but it's far better than the current context.

Its in everyone's interest that we rejoin. Helps the UK heal, helps the EU let us be a case study for countries leaving and then coming back. Makes the EU itself stronger.

It won't happen in any case as the politics in this country is a complete and utter corrupt shit stain.

 

[JPRouve]

Its in everyone's interest that we rejoin. Helps the UK heal, helps the EU let us be a case study for countries leaving and then coming back. Makes the EU itself stronger.

It won't happen in any case as the politics in this country is a complete and utter corrupt shit stain.

Does that statement takes into account the UK joining every single EU pillars, no exemptions like every other new member?

 

[Maticmaker]

Lot's of flowery words here and I think I understand your basic message.
But remember, Paul lives in France, not the EU.
You are right that the UK has to solder on, on the outside. The outside of everything at the moment because we are not part of any trading block.
And essentially that is what people voted for. The typical UK stance of... nobody is going to tell me what to do. But in reality there is always someone who is going to tell you what to do, we just don't like to admit it.

There has been a few notable signs of progress, particularly in the motor manufacturing sector.
Stellantis has commenced production of electric vans from the Ellesmere Port facilities for all of its European brands. BMW has committed to spend hundreds of millions on new electric Mini production in the UK. And there is to be a new electric battery facility in Somerset for TATA Jaguar.
All of these of course will huge government subsidies. And currently 85% of UK motor output is exported.

But yes these are just very small steps forward and will in no way paper over the cracks of Brexit.
It is what it is. Self inflicted disaster. How much of a disaster is up to us.

Yes, he does, but I think he has a EU passport!!! Anyway that is not the point, France is part of the EU, the UK isn't, this is the reality.

Actually I don't think that is what people voted for; in fact many probably didn't even give it a thought despite the 'project fear' etc.
The referendum was simply put, too simply, just Cameron's vanity!
In many peoples minds I suspect it boiled down to "if you want more of the same vote 'remain'" ....."if you want a change , vote Leave"
and for all sorts of reasons, lots nothing to do with the EU, that's what happened.

My point to Paul all along has been the deed has been done, we are not going back and that isn't just we haven't asked, it means the EU does not want us back, for their own reasons.... many of them probably good ones. Hence keep trying to tell us to keep in line with the EU, is not the answer, yes, by all means don't dissemble further EU laws because ECHR is always going to be in-play, at least for the foreseeable future, or until the UK, or a ' new UK' gets its own written constitution.

Yes, there have been some 'green-shoots' but nothing to right home about yet.

 

[RedSky]

Does that statement takes into account the UK joining every single EU pillars, no exemptions like every other new member?

I think so yes. Its in the EUs benefit that we come grovelling back. I am obviously very biased though being English and pro EU. EU citizens might not feel the same.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes I do Paul, you are screaming at a UK which has had an 'Humpty-Dumpty' type experience, to pull itself together and to get back on the wall...... for its own good!

'Evil mysterious being', where has that come from? If you are referring to the political aspects of the EU, rather than the trading aspects of a common market, then perhaps I understand your comparison. Over the years EU has been used by the UK press and lets not forget by many UK politicians, when it suited, as a 'bogey-man'. It is however the fault of a least a generation of UK politicians (left and right) that this concept took hold; the EU was never sold positively in the UK by anybody except maybe a small group, who were shouted down anyway. It suited UK politicians to regularly lambaste the EU, and in certain issues like 'closer political integration', certain issues on defense, at times agriculture, they were right, but on most other issues they were not.

As for domestic policy, yes each country does have its own, and now the UK is outside the EU the UK politicians have the capability to be wrong, as well as right and nothing to hide behind despite the right wing press attempts to cultivate these 'EU bogey-man' issues. So you are right Starmer's policy will be on establishing a social contract with the public, which will be aimed at domestic issues and it will include trade issues but alongside social issues, the two being linked.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I do think issues on independence for Scotland, possible moves that envisages unification in Ireland, will have to be addressed positively in some form as part of this social contract; a new version of the UK emerging, possibly even with its own written constitution (these aspects maybe be classified as part of the 'search for the holy grail')

We do have the Brexit that was voted for, the UK is no longer part of the EU. 'Project Fear' raised during the referendum did no good then and continuing with its curse, will not do any good now in changing peoples minds. The world has moved on an so will this country, for better or for worse the dye is cast.

I understand what you're saying. Closer political integration with a parliament represented by all different parties, from far left to far right across Europe, which used to include the Far Right parties of the UK. Farage is very grateful to the UK for paying him lots of money for standing up now and again and having a rant whilst doing no work at all on behalf of the UK over a period of 20 years. He thanks you for his pension as well.

What I want to know is what Starmer is going to do about the trade aspect which you mention. You have a few industries being bribed to stay in the UK for the time being like Tata and BMW which the UK wouldn't have needed to do being part of the SM & CM. But major companies can cope to an extent. SME's can't.

Whatever the UK export, it relies on complying with the laws of the country they are exporting to, so they will still be told what to do as they always have been.
Likewise if they flout human rights, state assistance to companies, unfair trading (freeports)their ability to export will be severely limited.

What and to who does Starmer plan on exporting now that the exports to the EU continue to diminish over time? Where does the shortfall come from?
Is he still continuing with the Freeports plan which seems to have gone silent.
Is he introducing the checks on imports , which have been delayed 5 times by the Tories as it will cause so many more problems, taking back control.

Is he going to introduce the new British standards UKCA which has also been delayed by the Tories? If someone wants to sell something to the UK do they get their product certified in the EU under the CE mark and subject to EU law or the UKCA mark which will not be recognised by any other country.

The Uk were quite happy to join the CPTTP which brings no real benefits and whose rules the UK have no say in; why? Does Starmer believe in this farce?

He says that the Tories have failed to grasp many Brexit opportunities, the only one he actually mentioned was reducing VAT on fuel during the energy crisis, completely unaware that many EU countries did do just that when the UK didn't.

We haven't got long to wait to find out what his plans are, six to nine months and he'll have to publish his manifesto. He'll have to come up with a new Brexit trade plan as it's out of date.

 

[Balljy]

I think so yes. Its in the EUs benefit that we come grovelling back. I am obviously very biased though being English and pro EU. EU citizens might not feel the same.

Do you think the country would accept moving to the Euro and losing the pound and all the other basic cornerstones of what it takes to join the EU without exemptions? I would love to re-join, but I really don't think the country as a whole is ready for it unfortunately. We place too much emphasis on our history and meaningless symbols for that in my opinion.

 

[JPRouve]

I think so yes. Its in the EUs benefit that we come grovelling back. I am obviously very biased though being English and pro EU. EU citizens might not feel the same.

That's where I strongly disagree. The EU won't benefit from the UK grovelling back, it doesn't need a disgruntled new member especially not one as big as the UK, it would essentially turn the clocks back to pre-2016. The UK should only rejoin the EU because they want to and because they embrace it as a whole without ever thinking that they are accepting a forced wedding.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Rejoining the EU will be difficult due to the level of integration that would be required unless an exception was made which brings us back to the source of the problem. Joining EFTA on terms that suits its member seems more reasonable, it's not as good as being a full member of the EU but it's far better than the current context.

Joining EFTA was already ruled out by the EFTA countries and would still mean the UK would have to accept the 4 freedoms.
Basically being in the EU without a vote.

The Uk would probably prefer to be in the EU.

 

[JPRouve]

Joining EFTA was already ruled out by the EFTA countries and would still mean the UK would have to accept the 4 freedoms.
Basically being in the EU without a vote.

The Uk would probably prefer to be in the EU.

Some countries rejected the idea of Norway-plus. As far as I know the UK didn't try to formally join EFTA, on EFTA members terms.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes, he does, but I think he has a EU passport!!! Anyway that is not the point, France is part of the EU, the UK isn't, this is the reality.

Actually I don't think that is what people voted for; in fact many probably didn't even give it a thought despite the 'project fear' etc.
The referendum was simply put, too simply, just Cameron's vanity!
In many peoples minds I suspect it boiled down to "if you want more of the same vote 'remain'" ....."if you want a change , vote Leave"
and for all sorts of reasons, lots nothing to do with the EU, that's what happened.

My point to Paul all along has been the deed has been done, we are not going back and that isn't just we haven't asked, it means the EU does not want us back, for their own reasons.... many of them probably good ones. Hence keep trying to tell us to keep in line with the EU, is not the answer, yes, by all means don't dissemble further EU laws because ECHR is always going to be in-play, at least for the foreseeable future, or until the UK, or a ' new UK' gets its own written constitution.

Yes, there have been some 'green-shoots' but nothing to right home about yet.

I have a British passport which is also an EU passport and a French ID card which is like an intra-EU passport, but I live in France which has different laws to other EU countries. I don't want to live elsewhere, in the EU, other EU countries or elsewhere in the world. All the EU countries have different sovereign laws but also common laws so that they interact freely and easily.

If the UK has a written constitution , excellent. It's only the UK itself that has prevented that.
When the UK or any country for that matter interacts with another country then different laws come into play, including international law.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Some countries rejected the idea of Norway-plus. As far as I know the UK didn't try to formally join EFTA, on EFTA members terms.

No they didn't formally ask to join but were told quietly that they shouldn't bother.

 

[RedSky]

Do you think the country would accept moving to the Euro and losing the pound and all the other basic cornerstones of what it takes to join the EU without exemptions? I would love to re-join, but I really don't think the country as a whole is ready for it unfortunately. We place too much emphasis on our history and meaningless symbols for that in my opinion.

Oh there's no chance. We're too egotistical to assume that we have to grovel to rejoin. We're too proud.

That's where I strongly disagree. The EU won't benefit from the UK grovelling back, it doesn't need a disgruntled new member especially not one as big as the UK, it would essentially turn the clocks back to pre-2016. The UK should only rejoin the EU because they want to and because they embrace it as a whole without ever thinking that they are accepting a forced wedding.

I don't agree, I think the EU would be more than happy for us to rejoin as it provides a clear warning to others that are considering to leave what eventually happens. Its all about controlling the narrative, if we face a decade of financial woes but are able to eventually come out of it on the other side stronger then it provides a message to other members of the EU that you can make it and don't need the EUs backing.

That's just my opinion, there is the other argument that bringing a chaotic partner back in can be risky and face destabilising others.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't agree, I think the EU would be more than happy for us to rejoin as it provides a clear warning to others that are considering to leave what eventually happens. Its all about controlling the narrative, if we face a decade of financial woes but are able to eventually come out of it on the other side stronger then it provides a message to other members of the EU that you can make it and don't need the EUs backing.

That's just my opinion, there is the other argument that bringing a chaotic partner back in can be risky and face destabilising others.

The issue is that your opinion is highly focused on PR when the issue isn't PR. The issue is entirely about political cooperation long term cooperation and common goals. That mindset is completely wrong and one of the main reasons behind Brexit and most ludicrous political stances that we see in other countreis where creating a narrative takes prededence over making things better for everyone.

In this case the issue is that the UK has been a reluctant member of the EU for decades which ultimately led to a separation that has been costly to everyone after years of unnecessary political and media battles, it has wasted billions and a lot of time. If the UK wants to join the EU and be a full member of the EU with all its attributes then they are welcome otherwise if they are reluctant on key points then they should stay away, the EU doesn't need a spiteful member and it doesn't need to send messages either.

 

[Adisa]

Can't even summon the energy to debate rejoining. Our two main political parties won't even mention the Brexit word.

 

[Buster15]

Yes, he does, but I think he has a EU passport!!! Anyway that is not the point, France is part of the EU, the UK isn't, this is the reality.

Actually I don't think that is what people voted for; in fact many probably didn't even give it a thought despite the 'project fear' etc.
The referendum was simply put, too simply, just Cameron's vanity!
In many peoples minds I suspect it boiled down to "if you want more of the same vote 'remain'" ....."if you want a change , vote Leave"
and for all sorts of reasons, lots nothing to do with the EU, that's what happened.

My point to Paul all along has been the deed has been done, we are not going back and that isn't just we haven't asked, it means the EU does not want us back, for their own reasons.... many of them probably good ones. Hence keep trying to tell us to keep in line with the EU, is not the answer, yes, by all means don't dissemble further EU laws because ECHR is always going to be in-play, at least for the foreseeable future, or until the UK, or a ' new UK' gets its own written constitution.

Yes, there have been some 'green-shoots' but nothing to right home about yet.

Yes I understand that.
I have heard many people saying to me that they were fed up of being told what to do by Brussels.

And yes of course the deed has been done. And will not be undone during my lifetime I suspect. That is very clear for many reasons.

That being the case, as Paul says, trading with the EU will become progressively more difficult. Nevertheless, there is no obvious substitute to the lost EU trade.
Unless... UK goods and services prove to be so overwhelmingly attractive that foreign buyers are prepared to pay the price of buying from the UK.
That has to be the way forward. And not just government bullshit words. But innovation and increased focus on design and excellence of quality will always be the key to growth.
And that is very much down to us.

So I use another motoring example. Motor racing, especially F1. All of the most successful teams are based in England. And while it is the Austrian or German national anthems, when Red Bull or Mercedes win, those teams are essentially British, including the R&D and the powertrains. There is no God given right. It is down to one thing. Being the very best.

 

[Maticmaker]

I understand what you're saying. Closer political integration with a parliament represented by all different parties, from far left to far right across Europe, which used to include the Far Right parties of the UK. Farage is very grateful to the UK for paying him lots of money for standing up now and again and having a rant whilst doing no work at all on behalf of the UK over a period of 20 years. He thanks you for his pension as well.

What I want to know is what Starmer is going to do about the trade aspect which you mention. You have a few industries being bribed to stay in the UK for the time being like Tata and BMW which the UK wouldn't have needed to do being part of the SM & CM. But major companies can cope to an extent. SME's can't.

Whatever the UK export, it relies on complying with the laws of the country they are exporting to, so they will still be told what to do as they always have been.
Likewise if they flout human rights, state assistance to companies, unfair trading (freeports)their ability to export will be severely limited.

What and to who does Starmer plan on exporting now that the exports to the EU continue to diminish over time? Where does the shortfall come from?
Is he still continuing with the Freeports plan which seems to have gone silent.
Is he introducing the checks on imports , which have been delayed 5 times by the Tories as it will cause so many more problems, taking back control.

Is he going to introduce the new British standards UKCA which has also been delayed by the Tories? If someone wants to sell something to the UK do they get their product certified in the EU under the CE mark and subject to EU law or the UKCA mark which will not be recognised by any other country.

The Uk were quite happy to join the CPTTP which brings no real benefits and whose rules the UK have no say in; why? Does Starmer believe in this farce?

He says that the Tories have failed to grasp many Brexit opportunities, the only one he actually mentioned was reducing VAT on fuel during the energy crisis, completely unaware that many EU countries did do just that when the UK didn't.

We haven't got long to wait to find out what his plans are, six to nine months and he'll have to publish his manifesto. He'll have to come up with a new Brexit trade plan as it's out of date.

Attempts at closer political integration was always a 'long shot' and at odds with such integration whilst the UK continued with a separate monetary system and perhaps more importantly domestically with a FPTP system. It still does have both systems and has no plans to change although in time perhaps it should, and perhaps a newly 'constituted UK' may well be a consequence of/or catalyst for such changes.

We all want to know what Starmer will do, about 'trade issues' and many other issues affecting/influencing trade, but as I keep stipulating, trade issues will only be part of a social contract that Starmer I believe will attempt to come up with. Included in that contract will be time periods, as wells as 'the rules' by which we undertake the contract and that will include trade issues/situations we will seek to obtain. As you have pointed out whenever we trade with others we will have to adhere to their rules when its something we want, they with our rules when its something they want. Trading 'Cartels' (and they are cartels) like the EU are heading for uncharted waters, there is so much else that is becoming an imperative, in the modern world. There will eventually be so many (ostensibly) trading cartels that ways around mounting political obstacles will have to been found, isn't that after all the basis of Trading? It is tempting for many countries to believe that if a their country is wearing its 'big boy' pants as part of a Trading Cartel, its problems will disappear, but we all know that whilst that might have been the missionary belief /zeal that held for the latter part of the 20th Century, with the climate change threats and power blocks shifting from the northern to the southern hemisphere, it could be a different story over the next 5 or 6 decades in the 21st Century.

I believe Starmer will take cognizance of all this in his planning, he seems also to be taking pains to welcome back some of Labour's past vote winner colleagues and strategic thinkers. We shall have to wait and see, and as you observe Paul, that wont be too long of a wait.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Attempts at closer political integration was always a 'long shot' and at odds with such integration whilst the UK continued with a separate monetary system and perhaps more importantly domestically with a FPTP system. It still does have both systems and has no plans to change although in time perhaps it should, and perhaps a newly 'constituted UK' may well be a consequence of/or catalyst for such changes.

We all want to know what Starmer will do, about 'trade issues' and many other issues affecting/influencing trade, but as I keep stipulating, trade issues will only be part of a social contract that Starmer I believe will attempt to come up with. Included in that contract will be time periods, as wells as 'the rules' by which we undertake the contract and that will include trade issues/situations we will seek to obtain. As you have pointed out whenever we trade with others we will have to adhere to their rules when its something we want, they with our rules when its something they want. Trading 'Cartels' (and they are cartels) like the EU are heading for uncharted waters, there is so much else that is becoming an imperative, in the modern world. There will eventually be so many (ostensibly) trading cartels that ways around mounting political obstacles will have to been found, isn't that after all the basis of Trading? It is tempting for many countries to believe that if a their country is wearing its 'big boy' pants as part of a Trading Cartel, its problems will disappear, but we all know that whilst that might have been the missionary belief /zeal that held for the latter part of the 20th Century, with the climate change threats and power blocks shifting from the northern to the southern hemisphere, it could be a different story over the next 5 or 6 decades in the 21st Century.

I believe Starmer will take cognizance of all this in his planning, he seems also to be taking pains to welcome back some of Labour's past vote winner colleagues and strategic thinkers. We shall have to wait and see, and as you observe Paul, that wont be to long of a wait.

The whole world are part of trading blocs with their near neighbours - except the UK and a few nutjobs. It makes trade easier. You are obsessed with the "social contract" which is nothing to do with anyone outside the UK.

How are the Uk going to trade in order to stop going bust is surely a more pressing subject.
It's not the past , it's the future.